Would HP Bug be a decent choice in your final slot? It allows you to OHKO Celebi, by far your biggest threat, at +1, which HP Ghost cannot do. You can also still hit Starmie, Lati@s, and Slowbro super effectively. This requires you to get rid of Jellicent and Tenta and others beforehand, but it might be cool. I'd like others input on this.
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Keldeo [available from June 23rd to August 31st]
- Thread starter Bloo
- Start date
Yeah, I think that might be an option to consider provided your team has other options to deal with Jellicent, which from my experience in DW OU is one of the most common switch-ins to Keldeo due to its immunities to both of Keldeo's STABs. Imo HP Ghost is definitely still the best option coverage wise, but the ability to OHKO Celebi is very appealing. I personally run HP Electric since my team had Gyarados issues and it can easily set up on Keldeo due to its resistances to both Water and Fighting.
HP Ghost and HP Dark have the exact same super effective coverage while Dark lacks the annoying Normal type immunity and allows you to use an IV spread of 31/31/31/31/31/31 instead of 31/31/30/31/30/31. I'd pick HP Dark over HP Ghost.
HP Ghost allows you to 2hko Toxicroak at +1 though, which HP Dark fails to. This is the only reason to use HP Ghost instead of Dark but since the only advantage that HP Dark has is 1 more point in each defensive stat, i would pick HP Ghost anyday. Another small disadvantage of HP Dark is that you could give to opposing Virizion and Terakion a justified boost which you could avoid with HP Ghost...
While HP Bug can ohko Celebi, HP Ghost is enough most of the times. At +1 and with LO Keldeo does 73,515%-86,88% to max HP Celebi. This means that if you manage to do 15% to Celebi beforehand then Celebi gets ohkoed. Also if you have SR and 1 layer of Spikes Celebi gets ohkoed ~90% of the time.
One thing we should keep in mind is that Keldeo's main form of Offense is not its Fighting STAB, but rather its Water STABs. For this reason, I think that an Electric Hidden Power could potentially work, as it has great offensive synergy with Water. However, it means that the Latii twins and Celebi wall you hard, so Hidden Power Ice is probably a better option in most cases. I do, however, agree that Hidden Power Ghost is better than Hidden Power Dark. Not only does Ghost provide perfect neutral coverage alongside Fighting, it also ensure that Virizion doesn't get a free Attack boost.
But Virizion is not a counter really because of the fact that Keldeo learns Secret Sword, which is basically a Fighting Psyshock.
I also think this pokemon would be one of the fearsome rain sweepers ever.
With HP Ghost I think its counters could be, but I think there are more:
- SUNNY TEAMS in general.
- Dragonite: If it is Special Defensive, it is even worse. The dragon could Hurricane the pony, Thunder it, DD, Outrage, phaze it with Dragon Tail, even Paralyzing it or setting a substitute.
- Salamence: It has worse Sp. Def than Dragonite and it is also weak x2 to SR, it is not a reliable counter though.
- Tentacruel: Annoying, but its Standard set cannot touch the pony, at least it can hope for a Scald burn and outstall it. Rain makes it heal itself.
- Gyarados: Quite Simmilar to Salamence.
- Venusaur: Good counter.
- Toxicroak: Not much reliable, but in rain it heals itself.
I also think this pokemon would be one of the fearsome rain sweepers ever.
With HP Ghost I think its counters could be, but I think there are more:
- SUNNY TEAMS in general.
- Dragonite: If it is Special Defensive, it is even worse. The dragon could Hurricane the pony, Thunder it, DD, Outrage, phaze it with Dragon Tail, even Paralyzing it or setting a substitute.
- Salamence: It has worse Sp. Def than Dragonite and it is also weak x2 to SR, it is not a reliable counter though.
- Tentacruel: Annoying, but its Standard set cannot touch the pony, at least it can hope for a Scald burn and outstall it. Rain makes it heal itself.
- Gyarados: Quite Simmilar to Salamence.
- Venusaur: Good counter.
- Toxicroak: Not much reliable, but in rain it heals itself.
Virizion may not be a counter, sure, but it certainly has a chance of defeating Keldeo. As well, even though Keldeo has a "Fighting-type Psyshock", the point is that its Fighting-type, and Keldeo will not be grabbing an OHKO anytime soon. A +1 Virizion, on the other hand, can take out Keldeo with Leaf Blade.
Not much reliable thought, because Virizion and Keldeo have the same speed, but it could be useful in a pinch.
Even with HP Ghost the Lati twins completely curbstomps Keldeo since it's not going come anywhere near killing, and then they can just OHKO you with Psyshock. Roserade is another good check to Keldeo, since Leaf Storm still OHKOs a +1 Keldeo and it can easily set up Toxic Spikes which completely ruin you as well.
What about +2? Keldeo Calm Minds as you switch in, then Calm Minds again before the Leaf Storm. On iPad, so I don't know if +2 Secret Sword would OHKO, but it would do quite a bit, given Rosereade's fairly crap Defense.
Comments in bold.
If Latias counters you depends really. If he has Roar then ok but if it doesn't it could lose because Keldeo would hit its unboosted defense with Sacred Sword which even resisted will hurt at +6.
But Roserade is a superb counter!
Not all Latios carry Psyshock though. And if it doesn't then Keldeo will take it down as it dies because even Specs DM from Latios does 90% damage max to a +1 Keldeo, meaning that Keldeo will survive the first hit even if he has take SR damage and will ohko back with HP Ghost, if SR is up.
If Latias counters you depends really. If he has Roar then ok but if it doesn't it could lose because Keldeo would hit its unboosted defense with Sacred Sword which even resisted will hurt at +6.
But Roserade is a superb counter!
@ alexwolf, I wouldn't consider rain would be ever up when using Keldeo. But thanks for your comments.
By my experience, CM Bulky Booster Latias moveset is CM, Recover, Dragon Pulse, (Hidden Power Fire or Filler support move: Substitute/Roar or even Magic Coat/Reflect Type/Reflect/Healing Wish/Thunder Wave...) so she never carries Psyshock.
By my experience, CM Bulky Booster Latias moveset is CM, Recover, Dragon Pulse, (Hidden Power Fire or Filler support move: Substitute/Roar or even Magic Coat/Reflect Type/Reflect/Healing Wish/Thunder Wave...) so she never carries Psyshock.
This post has two parts: Some damage Calcs for tomtom and my impression of Keldeo
@tomtom Here are some damage calcs
Timid 252 SPA Leaf Storm Roserade does 75.9%-89.5%
Modest does 83.3%-98.1%
Timid life orb 98.8%-116.7% (Always a KO with stealth rock)
Modest life orb 107.4%-126.5%
Keldeo vs Roserade
Keldeo's sacred sword
at+1 64.1%-75.5%
at+2 85.5%-100.1%
Keldeo's water attacks
Normal Weather
Surf
56.5%-66.4%
Hydro Pump
71%-84%
In Rain
Surf
84.4%-99.6%
Hydro Pump
106.9%-126.0%
All Calcs assume Timid 4 HP 252 SpA 252 Spe Keldeo, with leftovers and Timid/Modest 4HP 252 SpA 252 Spe Roserade
My impression of Keldeo
Wow, I knew Keldeo's special movepool was shallow but this is literally it's entire special movepool: BubbleBeam, Scald, Hydro Pump, Surf, Secret Sword, Focus Blast, Hidden Power, Round, and Hyper Beam. 4 water, 2 fighting, 2 normal, and Hidden Power. That's it.
Of those only Scald, Hydro Pump, Surf, Secret Sword, and Hidden Power are useable.
For set up it gets Calm Mind, Work Up, and Swords Dance. Only Calm Mind is useful since Keldeo's physical movepool is better than it's special one, but it has the same attack stat as Hippopotas.
One last thing: Is there any point in using Keldeo in OU outside of the Rain? It seems like there are better sweeper options if you're not using drizzle.
@tomtom Here are some damage calcs
Timid 252 SPA Leaf Storm Roserade does 75.9%-89.5%
Modest does 83.3%-98.1%
Timid life orb 98.8%-116.7% (Always a KO with stealth rock)
Modest life orb 107.4%-126.5%
Keldeo vs Roserade
Keldeo's sacred sword
at+1 64.1%-75.5%
at+2 85.5%-100.1%
Keldeo's water attacks
Normal Weather
Surf
56.5%-66.4%
Hydro Pump
71%-84%
In Rain
Surf
84.4%-99.6%
Hydro Pump
106.9%-126.0%
All Calcs assume Timid 4 HP 252 SpA 252 Spe Keldeo, with leftovers and Timid/Modest 4HP 252 SpA 252 Spe Roserade
My impression of Keldeo
Wow, I knew Keldeo's special movepool was shallow but this is literally it's entire special movepool: BubbleBeam, Scald, Hydro Pump, Surf, Secret Sword, Focus Blast, Hidden Power, Round, and Hyper Beam. 4 water, 2 fighting, 2 normal, and Hidden Power. That's it.
Of those only Scald, Hydro Pump, Surf, Secret Sword, and Hidden Power are useable.
For set up it gets Calm Mind, Work Up, and Swords Dance. Only Calm Mind is useful since Keldeo's physical movepool is better than it's special one, but it has the same attack stat as Hippopotas.
One last thing: Is there any point in using Keldeo in OU outside of the Rain? It seems like there are better sweeper options if you're not using drizzle.
yeah - it's arguably the best 'mixed' sweeper on the game thanks to Secret Sword allowing it to breeze past special walls, while Hydro Pump is still an absurdly powerful move without Rain. Great speed combined with great bulk and what is actually one of the best defensive typings around make for a versatile team addition that can counter/check things as well as sweeping.
+0 Life Orb Secret Sword vs 4/0 Virizion = 72% - 85%NWO said:
Virizion's only hope to OHKO Keldeo is Life Orb Leaf Blade but I've always found Leftovers Swords Dance or the Calm Mind set to be better options on Virizion. It's certainly no counter and even when 1vs1, it's probably going to be decided by a speed tie.
Right, I forgot that that Secret Sword is a fighting Psyshock, yeah that definitely gives Keldeo an edge since Chansey,Blissey and other walls are turned into setup fodder. Good point about the his typing too, Water/Fighting is a great type offensively and defensively (7 resistances). (Kyurem didn't fare so well)
Also, while he is in competition for best 'mixed' sweeper in OU, the best 'mixed' sweeper in the game is Mewtwo thanks to his new signature move Psystrike, which is Psyshock with 100 base Power (and STAB!) instead of 80. He's literally so powerful now that along with an Extremekiller Arceus check, Kyogre check, etc having a Psystrike Mewtwo check is a now a must for an Uber team.
Why yes, I am a fan of Mewtwo, why do you ask? :)
Lastly, I'd like to smack the game designer who named Keldeo's move "Secret Sword" when the he and the Musketeer trio learn "Sacred Sword" by level up. Who's bright idea was that?
I can't wait for Keldeo to be officially released so that I can start abusing the Specs set in the Rain. Specs Hydro Pump coming off of this thing in the Rain is insanely powerful, even having the chance to 2HKO standard Ferrothorn and Blissey. I know both of those can be reliably killed by Secret Sword, but that only goes to show that you can afford to be more reckless with Hydro Pump on Keldeo than you can a lot of other Pokemon (provided Gastro/Jelli/Vappy isn't on the opposing team, of course).
The only real counter I can see is Jellicent. I'm not sure how well it takes HP Ghost though.
On another note, when Keldeo is released my friend (who is obsessed with My Little Pony) can stop telling me everything I do "needs moar ponies."
On another note, when Keldeo is released my friend (who is obsessed with My Little Pony) can stop telling me everything I do "needs moar ponies."
You know, I gave this thing a run today with Substitute+Calm Mind+Hydro Pump+Secret Sword, and it was surprisingly good. Substitute ensured Keldeo would nab at least one Calm Mind and proceed to go to war against the Latii twins, and finish up with Secret Sword. Haven't seen Psyshock Latios though, those could prove troublesome. Celebi is a complete bitch to contend with, but the ability to block random Toxics and Thunder Waves while setting up is always nice.
CMRoar Latias craps all over this set.
I'm kinda surprised I haven't posted in this place as soon as I heard My Little Pony (pun intended) was probably being released. It's my second most fav 5th gen (nothing beats out my green teddy bear for top 5th gen) but yea when it gets released it's gonna reck the metagame. very few things can stay in on it without taking a crapload of damage especially in the rain. I wouldn't be surprised if it got banned. Infact, with how it looks on paper, I wouldn't be surprised if it got instabanned. I wouldn't feel to good about it getting banned but I need an excuse to do ubers now that Rayquaza is getting released with V-create. :P
I think Terrakion and Keldeo paired up would be a great combo because Keldeo can take care of Terrakions biggest threat Scizor as well as Conkelldurr pretty well, while Terrakion can take care of Dragonite.
The majority of us agreed Keldeo's bulk will allow its SubCM set to flourish, though you just can't stick it on a team and expect it to pull through; it needs support.
Choice Specs on this pony under rainy conditions will be insane. Also, maximising your EVs in HP means Keldeo will take very little from Scizor's U-turn/Bullet Punch, and resisting Stealth Rock means it can switch in easily.
Water/Fighting is a blessing.
Choice Specs on this pony under rainy conditions will be insane. Also, maximising your EVs in HP means Keldeo will take very little from Scizor's U-turn/Bullet Punch, and resisting Stealth Rock means it can switch in easily.
Water/Fighting is a blessing.
Interesting to see this pony getting so much attention...and disappointing to see so much theorymoning rather than people actually playing DW.
Anyway, it will be rather interesting to see how Keldeo will initially play in standard since I'm fairly sure not a lot of standard players know his "counters" (Poliwrath is preeetty~ common, eh?). The quick list would be:
Dragonite
Salamence
Slowbro
Slowking
Jellicent
Celebi
Gyarados
Starmie
Latios
Latias
Toxicroak
Amoongus (Only good in DW)
Alakazam
Serperior (DW)
Tornadus
Whimsicott
Venusaur
Tangrowth
Jolteon
Ditto (DW)
And that's of course without diving into the plethora of Choice Scarf Pokemon that can take him down like Terrakion who doesn't mind revenge-killing his little brother.
But as you can see, there is no correct choice of Hidden Power for Keldeo since he needs more than one type to cover all those weaknesses. Look here:
HP Ghost sets gets stopped by Dragonite, Salamence, Gyarados, Amoongus, Venusaur, & Serperior.
HP Ice means Jellicent, Gyarados, Starmie, & the Slow-Bros get the best of him.
HP Electric leaves him open to Celebi, Latios, Latias, and ...well everything HP Ghost does minus Gyarados.
I personally believe HP Ghost to be the worst of the 3 Hidden Powers because you lose to Gyarados and the Pokemon that you're trying to hit with HP Ghost either:
1. They're not OHKO'd by a +1 HP Ghost (Celebi, Latias, & Latios, although Latios has a % chance of being KO'd)
2. They're faster than Keldeo & KO him first (Latios, Latias, & Starmie)
3. They're faster & can setup on +1 Keldeo's HP Ghost (CM Latios & CM Latias)
Aside from maybe Celebi if it's not running Leaf Storm or Status, you're losing that battle anyway or at most 2HKOing them, (which +1 Rain-boosted Hydro Pump should already do) so you might as well get the extra "practical" coverage HP Electric gives you even if it is just Gyarados since he completely forces Keldeo out with Bounce or Dragon Tail.
But again, that's just my opinion on the matter. There's probably a Pokemon I'm forgetting or never ran into that I'd absolutely need HP Ghost for.
Anyway, it will be rather interesting to see how Keldeo will initially play in standard since I'm fairly sure not a lot of standard players know his "counters" (Poliwrath is preeetty~ common, eh?). The quick list would be:
Dragonite
Salamence
Slowbro
Slowking
Jellicent
Celebi
Gyarados
Starmie
Latios
Latias
Toxicroak
Amoongus (Only good in DW)
Alakazam
Serperior (DW)
Tornadus
Whimsicott
Venusaur
Tangrowth
Jolteon
Ditto (DW)
And that's of course without diving into the plethora of Choice Scarf Pokemon that can take him down like Terrakion who doesn't mind revenge-killing his little brother.
But as you can see, there is no correct choice of Hidden Power for Keldeo since he needs more than one type to cover all those weaknesses. Look here:
HP Ghost sets gets stopped by Dragonite, Salamence, Gyarados, Amoongus, Venusaur, & Serperior.
HP Ice means Jellicent, Gyarados, Starmie, & the Slow-Bros get the best of him.
HP Electric leaves him open to Celebi, Latios, Latias, and ...well everything HP Ghost does minus Gyarados.
I personally believe HP Ghost to be the worst of the 3 Hidden Powers because you lose to Gyarados and the Pokemon that you're trying to hit with HP Ghost either:
1. They're not OHKO'd by a +1 HP Ghost (Celebi, Latias, & Latios, although Latios has a % chance of being KO'd)
2. They're faster than Keldeo & KO him first (Latios, Latias, & Starmie)
3. They're faster & can setup on +1 Keldeo's HP Ghost (CM Latios & CM Latias)
Aside from maybe Celebi if it's not running Leaf Storm or Status, you're losing that battle anyway or at most 2HKOing them, (which +1 Rain-boosted Hydro Pump should already do) so you might as well get the extra "practical" coverage HP Electric gives you even if it is just Gyarados since he completely forces Keldeo out with Bounce or Dragon Tail.
But again, that's just my opinion on the matter. There's probably a Pokemon I'm forgetting or never ran into that I'd absolutely need HP Ghost for.
I already listed Toxicroak. HP Electric AND Ice hit him for neutral damage.
As for those 4, I already went over it:
252 SpAtk Starmie Thunderbolt vs 4 HP/0 +1 SpDef Keldeo: 38.89% - 46.3% (3 hits to KO)
252 +1 SpAtk Life Orb Keldeo Hydro Pump in Rain vs 4 HP/0 SpDef Starmie: 124.05% - 145.8% (100% chance to OHKO)
Starmie's not even a legitimate threat in Rain and if it's Offensive running Psyshock, you're already boned so your Hidden Power doesn't even matter.
In terms of practical use, HP Electric is just better.
Also Celebi is ohkoed after 2 rounds of SR with HP Ghost and Latios is always ohkoed after SR by a +1 HP Ghost while you survive everything bar Psyshock even from Specs Latios after SR. You die after you kill it with HP Ghost but it is better than being forced out. Also Latias goes to a Cm war which he loses because of Secret Sword.
Finally Jellicent, one of your biggest counters, needs HP Ghost or Electric to be dealt with. But HP Electric is only good for ohkoing Slowbro,Gyarados and Starmie, which HP Ghost and Hydro Pump in rain already do so...