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Kingdra (ChestoRest)

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Fuck you Atticus. I was hoping this set wouldn't go public, cause it's currently the best Kingdra set IMO. Oh well, cat's out of the bag.
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I'm so ashame you made this set public
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Agreeing that you should've kept this on the dl, because now I have to actually prepare for this thing -_-
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I know these are half in jest, but by the same measure, they're also half serious. Are we the most skilled players or just the guys in the back room with the best gimmicks?

Just saying that it'd be best if we aren't reluctant to share our sets, as sharing knowledge is central to the community.
 
competitiveness is also central to the community, and developing novel ev spreads or sets is often necessary to win in competitions like spl and wcop in order to take advantage of metagame trends or opponent tendencies. when they become public, sets become less effective (if only marginally). i know atticus went 7-0 in important tournament battles with a team using this set, and is only posting it since he retired that team. you can say that lots of potential opponents already knew about the set since it wasn't exactly a compartmentalized secret, but that's probably why it's getting posted. no one is going to post their high tech wcop tricks before they've had a good run with them.

i guess it is kind of the same argument as the one against ignoring drug patents in the name of public health.

edit: to clarify, i definitely agree that sets should be posted after they've lost most (or some) of their surprise competitive "edge". just pointing out the other side of the coin; not everyone's first instinct upon retiring a team is "gotta post my sets in C&C now!"
 
Snorlaxe said:
This was my first time proofreading with the diff app, so please bear with me! xD



Final version:

[SET]
name: Chesto Rest
move 1: Rest
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Dragon Dance
item: Leftovers
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Adamant
evs: 144 HP / 160 Atk / 42 SpD / 164 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>When using Dragon Dance, Life Orb and Outrage are usually Kingdra's best options, but this results in Kingdra being taken out quickly and walled by Steel-types quite often. On the other hand, using the RestTalk version with Waterfall will make Kingdra walled by bulky Water-type Pokemon. This set remedies both aforementioned problems by carrying both Outrage and Waterfall while still having a means of recovery. The idea of this set is that you Dragon Dance once or twice in the face of Steel-types or bulky Waters and are then able to KO them easily once you heal back to full health with Rest before attempting a sweep. By taking out the pesky Water-types and defensive Steel-types, Kingdra can prevent other sweepers on its team from losing momentum while attempting its own sweep.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>The EVs are fine-tuned in order to prevent Starmie or +1 Suicune from 2HKOing Kingdra with Ice Beam, letting it Dragon Dance without fear and then Rest off the damage. The Speed EVs allow Kingdra to outspeed +1 positive base 100s, namely Choice Scarf Flygon, after two Dragon Dances. The spread can be adjusted, so long as these requirements are still met. You can use a Lum Berry instead of Chesto, since it will cure Outrage's confusion, although most of the time you will use the berry while waking Kingdra from Rest. Even against burn or paralysis it is a better idea to just Dragon Dance and Rest it off before using Kingdra's Chesto Berry to restore yourself instantly.</p>

<p>Heatran, Gyarados, and any other sweeper who lures in Water-types like Swampert and Suicune are great partners to this set, since Kingdra can eliminate them, making it easier for them to sweep. They also pull the Water-type in, giving Kingdra an easy switch and set-up opportunity. Despite taking high damage from a boosted Waterfall, Steel-types can still be a problem. Skarmory will phaze you, and Metagross is forced to use Explosion, which can easily be played around.</p>

Good job to both Atticus and Zy!
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Instead of,

"The idea of this set is that you Dragon Dance once or twice in the face of Steel-types or bulky Waters and are then able to KO them easily once you heal back to full health with Rest before attempting a sweep."

this

'The idea of this set is to use Dragon Dance once or twice in the face of Steel-types or bulky Waters and then be able to KO them easily once you heal back to full health with Rest before attempting a sweep.'

In the last paragraph, it would be nice if you could keep the water theme going, after the using lure, by replacing "They also pull the Water-type in," with ‘They also reel in the Water-types,’ See what did there? heh heh

As for the last sentence "which can easily be played around." should be 'although they can be easily be played around.’
 
If someone uses a set to win a tournament, it's not going to be a secret any longer, since at the very least your opponent knows about it. And more often than not, if the tournament is a big deal, a lot of experienced battlers are going to know what it is anyways.
 
Posting to clarify, since people seem to be taking joke posts too seriously.

First of all, you have to realize that there are many factors in play when it comes to posting a set. A lot of us who go out and try to invent new sets are very busy and don't have time to post the sets themselves and go through the process. This includes most of us on QC. That is why when we go through on-site analyses, we not only fix sets, but we post saying that so-and-so sets also should be on the analysis, and that is why we have QC writers. Second of all, it's as whistle said -- who the hell am I to go and post a set invented by Atticus/Gouki when they are in the middle of a tournament using that very set? There's a moral ground there that I am personally not willing to cross.

At the end of the day, this is a competitive community, and no user owes anybody anything. If you create a set and want to keep it private for your own personal use, you are fully free to do so. If you have put a certain set to good use and would like to generously make the set public by posting a thread like this one, we all appreciate it. I personally would not post my best sets until after I feel like I got enough use out of them. A lot of this game is, after all, surprising your opponent and bringing things they are not prepared for.

No more posts on this subject please. I do not want to derail this topic. If this matter really concerns you, you are free to make a topic about it.
 
So no one is going to address my point about this set being very similar to the main Sub + DD Set> They play the same - same moves and everything one just uses Sub to pre-emptively block status while the other DDs then Rests off status. If anything this set should be just the standard set, having Rest / Substitute slashed and Chesto Berry / Leftovers slashed. This is just a more effective version of that set really.
 
RaikouLover said:
So no one is going to address my point about this set being very similar to the main Sub + DD Set> They play the same - same moves and everything one just uses Sub to pre-emptively block status while the other DDs then Rests off status. If anything this set should be just the standard set, having Rest / Substitute slashed and Chesto Berry / Leftovers slashed. This is just a more effective version of that set really.
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Good point, but than we would need to test out if the EVs from the chesto set could work with the sub set, but resting off damage is pretty huge considering something like celebi thinks its going to GK you all day and not let you set up as a sub kingdra, while chesto gives you a chance to setup
 
I have disagree with you on that RL. While ChestoDD is much better than Sub + DD, they do have their differences. For one, having a Substitute up eases the amount of prediction that Kingdra has to make (i.e, Flygon switching in as you DD) while maintaining the ability to run an item other than Chesto (+1 LO Outrages / Waterfalls hurts a lot of shit). SubDance also takes much less time to set up, making it much more usable under dual screens. The biggest difference between the two sets, imo, is the fact that DDChesto can be played a lot more recklessly. I mean, with Chesto + Rest, Kingdra gets a shitload more Pokemon to set up on since most people tend to bring Kingdra by either weakening it or poison/paralysis.
 
They play very, very differently. SubDD has to avoid getting injured at all costs, since it's wearing itself down with Sub, SS existing, etc. It can also cause problems to people who recklessly switch Flygon in to catch Kingdra at only +1 if it subs as Flygon switches in. Basically, SubDD Kingdra has to be played conservatively and come in only when it thinks it can take advantage of its Lum to set up, but it has a lot more protection against status once it's set up. Meanwhile this set can pretty much come in on anything that doesn't outright kill it and throw up a Dragon Dance, the nshake off any damage it might take. However, if it fails to OHKO a Status user, say a TWave Jirachi or defensive Celebi, once its Rest jig is up, it can find itself in a pickle getting Paralyzed even after having been set up.

Plus, I'm not convinced the same EVs work for them, and besides: Does it REALLY hurt to have two different sets for this?
 
As someone who has used both Sub DD and DD Chesto Kindra extensively, I can easily say that SDS is right -- they both play completely differently. Sub DD is for allowing Kingdra to scout Scarf things like Flygon and beat it from behind a sub, DD Chesto is for setting up against bulkier teams that don't hit as hard and resting off the damage after multiple DD's. I also have absolutely no idea why this is being compared to DD Rest Talk Outrage, because the two sets couldn't be more different. That set is for longevity and utilizing bulk/resistances to be hard to KO. This set is for setting up multiple DD's by using a free turn of healing to make for a harder sweep. Just because a moveset only has one different move (Rest > Sub, or Waterfall > Sleep Talk) doesn't make them similar.
 
undisputed said:
Why compare it to other Kingdra? I don't think the point of an analysis is to explain why one set is better than another set, which seems to be what you're doing. Rather, it is to give the reader an explanation on how to use the given set, because it is more than likely they will be looking at the analysis for how-to's after deciding they want to use Chest Rest.
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Analyses should do everything they can to help narrowed make informed decisions. If an analysis lists more than one set, barriers should figure out why to use one set but not the other.

I still struggle to see why you wouldn't use Outrage Sleep Talk over this with the same EVs, since if you only have one attack being "locked in" doesn't matter and if you can kill Steels after a boost, you're set. Obviously this set has merit because you can immediately attack and don't have to roll Sleep Talk dice, but I feel the mono set is worth another look. While the current mono set is built around tanking, I don't see why it can't be played like this one is.
 
Chris is me said:
Analyses should do everything they can to help narrowed make informed decisions. If an analysis lists more than one set, barriers should figure out why to use one set but not the other.
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An analysis isn't a sales pitch. You just write what the Pokemon does, then the reader is supposed make an informed decision. I don't need to be told "this set is better than this set for this reason" because I can make a decision based on my team. Comparing it is mainly up to the person reading, and putting said comparison in an analysis is frankly a waste of space. A "filler" because you dont know what else to write.

Edit: Have you ever used the set? It plays way differently than just rest talking with Outrage. This set is vastly superior to the Kingdra you are mentioning because its not complete setup bait for all Steel types. Stop arguing for Rest talk, its not comparable.
 
Have you ever used the set? It plays way differently than just rest talking with Outrage. This set is vastly superior to the Kingdra you are mentioning because its not complete setup bait for all Steel types.
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Yeah, I agree it plays differently. Even though RestTalk DD can only be beatin by Calm Mind Jirachi and Swords Dance Scizor. Every other Steel can't touch Kingdra (Lucario gets 2HKOed by +1 Outrage if it bothers trying to set up).
 
Okay, I'm just gonna be blunt here: cut the SubDD vs Chesto DD vs RestTalk DD crud. It's so cluttering. By now it's already been established: Chesto DD is designed to set up repeatedly while having only one status to heal off with Rest , then kill off the unexpecting opponent. (3.....2.....1....."kaboom"), Sub DD is designed to prevent status while preventing Critical hits, constant Status, and just being plain annoying in general, and RestTalk DD is generally....Bulky in terms of absorbing hits.

Yeah. It doesn't hurt to have this on site (Goddamn. How much of a hypocrite am I?), and Kingdra can come up with many colorful ways of utilizing Dragon Dance. What's one more Dragon Dance set, no matter how similar it is? Right, it has to play differently. This set plays in a different way that it's both durable and offensive at the same time, therefore it deserves a spot on Smogon.

And also, bump so this can get written up. The OP can write it yourself, or employ me or anybody else to write it for you.
 
This set is a beast, having Suicune against Atticus in SPL was a huge mistake! Too bad Atticus has made it public. :/

There's is really nothing you can say against this set's effectiveness imo. It's good.
 
Here comes C+C Grammar Factory...

GP check 1 of 2

Deletions in Red
Additions in Blue
(Comments in brackets)

Atticus said:
[SET]
name: Chesto Rest
move 1: Rest
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Dragon Dance
item: Chesto Berry / Lum Berry
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Adamant
evs: 144 HP / 160 Atk / 40 SpD / 164 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>When using Dragon Dance, Life Orb and Outrage are usually Kingdra's best options, but this results in Kingdra being taken out quickly and walled by Steel-types quite often. On the other hand, using the RestTalk version with Waterfall will make get Kingdra walled by bulky Water-type Pokemon. This set remedies both aforementioned problems by carrying both Outrage and Waterfall while still having a means of recovery. The idea of this set is that you Dragon Dance once or twice in the face of Steel-types or bulky Waters and are then able to KO them who are then KOed easily once you heal back to full health with Rest before attempting a sweep. (Shortened a run-on sentence; deleted a repeated idea) By taking out the pesky Water-types and defensive Steel-types, Kingdra can prevent other sweepers on its team from losing momentum while attempting its own sweep.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>The EVs are fine-tuned in order to prevent Starmie or +1 Suicune from 2HKOing Kingdra with Ice Beam, letting allowing it to Dragon Dance without fear and then Rest off the damage. The Speed EVs allow Kingdra to outspeed +1 positive base 100s, namely Choice Scarf Flygon, after two Dragon Dances. The spread can be adjusted, so long as these requirements are still met. You can use a Lum Berry instead of Chesto, since it will cure Outrage's confusion, although most of the time you will use the Berry while waking to wake Kingdra up from Rest. Even against burn or paralysis it is a better idea to just Dragon Dance and Rest it off before using and use Kingdra's Chesto Berry to restore yourself instantly.</p>

<p>Heatran, Gyarados, and any other sweeper who lures in bulky Water-types like Swampert and Suicune are great partners to this set, since Kingdra can switch in, set-up, and eliminate them these bulky Waters, making it easier for them to sweep. (Confusing repetition of 'them') They also pull the Water-type in, giving Kingdra an easy switch and set-up opportunity. (Unnecessary repetition) Despite taking high damage from a boosted Waterfall, Steel-types can still be a problem; Skarmory will phaze you, and though Metagross is forced to use Explosion, which can easily be played around.</p>
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Some changes to be made, to be sure.

gp2.png
 
[SET]
name: Chesto Rest
move 1: Rest
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Dragon Dance
item: Chesto Berry / Lum Berry
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Adamant
evs: 144 HP / 160 Atk / 40 SpD / 164 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>When using Dragon Dance, Life Orb and Outrage are usually Kingdra's best options, but this results in Kingdra being taken out quickly and walled by Steel-types quite often, as well as being walled by Steel-types. On the other hand, using the RestTalk version with Waterfall will get Kingdra is walled by bulky Water-type Pokemon. This set remedies both aforementioned problems by carrying both Outrage and Waterfall, while still having a means of recovery. The idea of this set is that you Dragon Dance once or twice in the face of Steel-types or bulky Waters, who are then KOed easily once you heal back to full health with Rest. By taking out the pesky Water-types and defensive Steel-types, Kingdra can prevent other sweepers on its team from losing momentum while attempting its own sweep.</p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>The EVs are fine-tuned in order to prevent Starmie or and +1 Suicune from 2HKOing Kingdra with Ice Beam, allowing it to Dragon Dance without fear and then Rest off the damage. The Speed EVs allow Kingdra to outspeed +1 positive base 100s, namely Choice Scarf Flygon, after two Dragon Dances. The spread can be adjusted, so long as these requirements are still met. You can use a Lum Berry instead of Chesto, since it will cure Outrage's confusion, although most of the time you will use the Berry to wake Kingdra up from Rest. Even against burn or paralysis it is a better idea to just Dragon Dance and Rest it off before using Kingdra's Chesto Berry to restore yourself instantly.</p>

<p>Heatran, Gyarados, and any other sweepers who lure in bulky Water-types like such as Swampert and Suicune are great partners to this set, since. Kingdra can switch in, set up, and eliminate these bulky Water-types, making it easier for them its partners to sweep. Despite taking high damage from a boosted Waterfall, Steel-types can still be a problem; Skarmory will phaze you, though Metagross is forced to use Explosion, which can easily be played around.</p>

gp2.png
 
agreed with undisputed's mostly unaddressed posts on the previous page. while comparing the set to other kingdra sets can help the reader make an informed decision, that shouldn't be the crux of the comments. the way you've organized the analysis currently makes it seem like this is some sort of compromise option between dd lo and dd restalk, when in fact it is not a "better and fixed" version of either.

at the very least, the comments should be reorganized to place the most important aspect of the set -- setting up on bulky waters -- first, with the advantages/disadvantages over other kingdra sets mentioned later. the current comments don't emphasize the great setup opportunities enough imo; they kinda just say "yeah you can dragon dance in front of them...". it should be more forceful.

also the portion that currently reads
You can use a Lum Berry instead of Chesto, since it will cure Outrage's confusion, although most of the time you will use the Berry to wake Kingdra up from Rest. Even against burn or paralysis it is a better idea to just Dragon Dance and Rest it off before using Kingdra's Chesto Berry to restore yourself instantly.
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is probably better off as
You can use a Lum Berry instead of Chesto, since it will cure Outrage's confusion. Unfortunately, this means Kingdra won't set up as effectively on defensive Pokemon who utilize Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave, since both of those will consume the Lum Berry before Kingdra has the opportunity to Rest.
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In the analysis, you may also want to mention in the teammate section part some Pokemon that help eliminate Pokemon that Kingdra can't get past. For example, I used a team with Jolly Agiligross with Explosion over Thunderpunch. This allowed me to beat the flygon that thought they could revenge me or setup on them if Kingdra got revenged by it. It can't revenge both mons without one or the other setting up. Also, since I ran Kingdra, I could afford to run Explosion and not worry about waters which Kingdra could beat easily. Some other partners I like with this set are LO Gengar because of its ability to bring in Steels like Scizor and Metagross that have high defense and can limit your sweeping ability at high health.

Also, as a note, Kingdra doesn't really do a good job setting up on Swampert. It will probably have roar, and unless Kingdra gets up to +2 or +3 it isnt going to KO pert. If Swampert doesn't have Roar, youre still likely going to be killed because of Swampert's high defense and stab earthquake will beat you before you can ko it.
 
This is being taken over by undisputed because we would like the analysis to go on-site ASAP, Zy's partially on leave, his writing isn't really indicative of how the set handles, and I think that undisputed is definitely qualified to do the writeup. Looking forward to seeing this done!
 
[SET]
name: Chesto Rest
move 1: Rest
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Dragon Dance
item: Chesto Berry / Lum Berry
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Adamant
evs: 144 HP / 160 Atk / 40 SpD / 164 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>With excellent dual STABs in the moves Waterfall and Outrage, coupled with Dragon Dance, Kingdra becomes a top threat capable of sweeping unprepared teams. In addition, Kingdra's excellent typing, along with its deceptively bulky stat dispersal, allows it to take strong special hits andDragon Dance with a comfortable amount of HP remaining. Kingdra's would-be counters, such as Suicune or Starmie, both of which hope to bait Outrage, now find themselves unable to stop Kingdra from grabbing two or three Dragon Dances while Kingdra is able to Rest and restore itself to full health thanks to Chesto Berry. With its boosted Waterfall, Kingdra often finds itself able to beat these Pokemon without locking itself into Outrage and becomes very difficult to stop if the opponent no longer has a Defensive wall like Skarmory or Forretress. </p>

[ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
<p>Kingdra's EV spread is designed to take Special Attacks with greater ease, all the while maintaining respectable attacking power and an efficient Speed stat. Specifically, Kingdra's special bulk is aimed towards surviving at least two attacks from both Life Orb Starmie and +1 Suicune, allowing it to Dragon Dance without the fear of a 2HKO. A minimum of 164 Speed EVs should be used to outpace Scarf Flygon after two Dragon Dances. While the idea of this set is to Dragon Dance without the worry of status moves and bulky water types thanks to Chesto Berry, Lum Berry is an acceptable substitute. With Lum Berry, Kingdra gains the ability to cure itself of confusion if it is forced to Outrage before it is able to Rest. However, Lum Berry makes the set more prone to status users that Kingdra can set up on.</p>

<p>Because the crux of this set is to set up on opposing bulky water types, strong Fire type attackers like Heatran and Infernape make excellent partners to this set. In addition, sweepers such as Tyranitar make excellent partners after Kingdra sets up and eliminates the opposing Bulky water(s). </p>
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Before this gets another GP check (it already got two before you changed it a bit), I'd like to suggest that you emphasize this set's ability to set up on Will-O-Wisp users. You only briefly mention this in the AC part of the analysis where you describe how Lum Berry hinders Kingdra's ability to setup on those Pokemon, but I'd really like it emphasized in the first paragraph so people know exactly the benefit of ChestoRest. Thanks in advance.
 
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