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Lati@s Discussion Thread

Honestly, I think the viability of these in the OU tier depends on whether or not Skymin gets to stick around. Latios shares quite a few of his boons with such a large Speed and Special Attack. Additionally, Specs'd Dracon Meteor behaves much like Seed Flare in that it will 1-2HKO just about everything.

We can't forget that Dragon is still one of the best types in the game, both offensively and defensively. Additionally, not being Dragon/Flying or Dragon/Ground eliminates his Double-Weakness to Ice, something that's only present on one non-uber Dragon (Kingdra, and one could argue that this is one of the primary reasons he is OU, given his stats). However, Psychic typing provides its own slew of weaknesses, and it remains to be seen whether these are pertinent or not.
 
I have mixed feelings regarding Latios/Latias in OU, and I'm very curious to see how the testing will go. On the one hand, CM/Dragon Pulse/Surf/Recover really is insanely threatening, and could manage to bring Empoleon into much greater usage all by itself, I suspect. On the other hand, Lati@s does have major problems with Blissey and doesn't quite have the physical bulk to laugh off physical priority users like Scizor, Mamoswine, and Lucario. That does suggest to me that Latias will prove the better of the two, though, just as it is in Ubers. One point that's really significant for me: before Skymin was released, I thought that speed+attacking power=pokemon's value as a sweeper (obviously not true of non-sweepers like, say, Forretress). Skymin showed that with the Platinum metagame's emphasis on typing, SR, and priority, even a fast, high-powered sweeper could be weakened significantly by its poor typing and defenses. Now, the bzzzt colored dragons have decent typing (Psychic hurts, Dragon is good), Pursuit weakness hurts a lot, but lack of 4X Ice weakness really does differentiate them from the other dragons. Each set is counterable, but each requires slightly different things (except Blissey, which would require a very specialized set to overcome). My point is that we shouldn't assume that just because Latios has the same speed and SpA as Gengar and well as CM and Recover that it should be automatically Uber. Let's see how it actually tests.
 
For Soul Dew, it might be good to seperately test that. Obviously, if without Soul Dew, they prove to be broken, then there's no need to test Soul Dew as well.

Specs Lati scares me a bit. Blissey can shrug those hits off, but everything else has to be on its toes. Even without predicting, Draco Meteor is huge.

There is no way Soul Dew is going to be allowed in standard play. Just to put it into perspective, it gives 1.5x SpA and SpD without locking you into one move, whereas Choice Specs gives 1.5x to SpA alone and locks you into a single move. It'd be broken beyond repair and immediately sent back to Uber. If you think Draco Meteor is scary even with good prediction, imagine Latios being able switch to the corresponding SE hit. Latias would be a huge special obstacle that could possibly compete with Blissey too.


On the other hand, Lati@s does have major problems with Blissey and doesn't quite have the physical bulk to laugh off physical priority users like Scizor, Mamoswine, and Lucario. That does suggest to me that Latias will prove the better of the two, though, just as it is in Ubers.

I get the other impression. Ubers and OU are two completely different environments. Latios was outclassed in Ubers by more dominating forces, and because he is more of a sweeper than anything else, his usage was toned down by other options. (Example: why use a special wall other than Blissey? It does the job better than anyone else). I think Latios will shine in the offensive environment where it's on a more level playing field with it's alternatives.

Now, the bzzzt colored dragons have decent typing (Psychic hurts, Dragon is good), Pursuit weakness hurts a lot, but lack of 4X Ice weakness really does differentiate them from the other dragons. Each set is counterable, but each requires slightly different things (except Blissey, which would require a very specialized set to overcome). My point is that we shouldn't assume that just because Latios has the same speed and SpA as Gengar and well as CM and Recover that it should be automatically Uber. Let's see how it actually tests.

As mentioned, Ice Shard is just a 2HKO other than an OHKO without that 4x ice weakness for Latios. Latias may be able to shrug it off decently (especially with a screen), but it can do little in return and still falls victim to a wide range of moves.
 
Empoleon cannot do much at all to Calm Mind sets, which I see as becoming one of the more popular sets, with strong emphasis on physical defense to take the priority moves that will constantly be raining down on the twins.

Sadly, two more Trick users have been brought to OU. These two will definitely use it to a great affect, ruining the Blissey that will forever switch in on them, and the physical attackers (Trick Specs will be more common than Scarf I think).

From what Platinum has been so far, there is a strong emphasis on priority moves and steels, and Lati@s will just push that so much further. #1 Scizor usage is completely possible, with Heatran dropping down (damage calcs below). Perhaps Empoleon will rise (even if it doesn't do all that well at countering Calm Minders), or maybe Registeel, even though it really didn't rise with Shaymin-S. Mamoswine will be of greater importance, and Weavile may just want to Ice Punch them or Night Slash them.

Heatran using Hidden Power Ice on Latios: 357 Atk vs 256 Def & 301 HP (70 base power): 140 - 166 (46.51% - 55.15%)
On Latias: 357 Atk vs 296 Def & 364 HP (70 base power): 122 - 144 (33.52% - 39.56%)
Latios has minimum defenses (sweeper spread) and Latias has 252 HP and no special defense.

I also think that a Choice Scarf set would be excellent on both of them, more likely Latios, as a revenge killer to opposing dragons and a good switch on Dragon Dance Gyarados. It will take on the same role as ScarfGar and possibly be even better.
 
Well if the Lati twins do make it OU there's gonna be a huge decrease in Salamence usage imo, although Salamence does perform some sets better than the Latis, like the Mixed set. Of course they'll be viable in the OU environment, question is if they're too "broken" for it, without Soul Dew, so I advise people to stop asking if they're good enough. This may sound simple but if they can perform well in Ubers, why not OU? Makes sense right?
 
Just something I wanted to mention... perhaps I should edit this into the OP:

Priority moves vs. 4 HP Latios

359 Atk Life Orb Ice Shard: 67-80%
339 Atk Life Orb Ice Shard: 66-78%
394 Atk Life Orb Bullet Punch: 56-66%
350 Atk Life Orb Extremespeed: 44-52%

Now the some values for Choice Band:

394 Atk Choice Band Ice Shard: 86-100%
394 Atk Choice Band Bullet Punch: 65-76%

As for Choice Scarf, I would recommend against it since it makes Lati@ nice easy Choice Band Pursuit Bait. Specs provides the power to get through Tyranitar and other steels.
 
I used to feel the Lati twins were far too broken for OU, but now I'm sort of leaning towards them being at least tested in OU. I think that the fact that those many common weaknesses is a real thorn in their side, not to mention there are some sweepers (Tyranitar for example) who can't be OHKO'd by their Attacks, and still be able to OHKO them.

As for Latios, a CB Tyranitar can come in on the CM version, take 62.87%74.26% from a +1 LO Timid Surf, and hit Latios with a Crunch for 175.50%-207.28% damage. Similarly, it can come in on Specs hits like Dragon Pulse, Draco Meteor, etc... and not be 2HKO'd (Draco Meteor has a very slight, slight chance to 2HKO, but it has to roll max damage twice in a row) and either Crunch it for the same damage, or just Pursuit it as it tries to flee away (OHKOing it of course)

Physical Latios won't be doing...much of anything to Skarmory. Base 90 Attack is pathetic by the hard hitting Dragon Dancers and such. Even a +6 Outrage from a Jolly Latios only does 67.37%-79.04%, meaning Skarm can just Roost off the damage, or just Whirlwind it away. It's not threatened in the slightest bit, unless said Latios is packing Thunderbolt.

Blissey remains the best counter to special oriented Latios, although, like a majority of people have said, Trick hinders her ability to wall him. The All Out Attacker is stopped by Tyranitar, Blissey, Cresselia, etc...

Latias seems a little more interesting, and perhaps a little more viable. It's support movepool is excellent, and it has superior defenses to Latios, especially in SpD. With a 252 HP/252 SpD spread, it can take quite a beating:

331 SpA Timid Yanmega's Bug Buzz vs. 364 HP/394 SpD Latias: 40.11%-47.80%

Only with Stealth Rock can one guarantee and OHKO, and Leftovers can fix that. The funny thing is, Latias can now use and enjoy Leftovers, meaning that it'll be even harder to take down. She can even take hits from things like Specsmence, as Dragon Pulse from a Max SpA Salamence with Choice Specs only does 79.12%-92.86% I know it may seem a little odd to post that, but the fact that Dragon Pulse can't OHKO and isn't even guaranteeing an OHKO with Stealth Rock support is scary if you ask me.

Latias also makes a pretty good answer to things like Tyraniboah, as Dark Pulse won't ever 2HKO. Although Tyranitar, namely the Choice Banded version, still gives the offensive versions plenty of trouble. Even a Max HP/Max Defense Latias takes 92.86%-110.44% from Choice Banded Crunch. However, Latias can happily put up Reflect, take 46.70%-56.04% from the same Crunch, and then PP stall it (although the Defense drop makes it very risky).

Latias can also take things such as Ice Beams and such very easily from the common Bulky Waters. 0 SpA Vaporeon's Ice Beam does a paltry 39.87%47.18% to 0 HP/0 SpD Latias.

Fighting resist is the icing on the cake, although repeated physical abuse hurts a lot. She'll always be 2HKO'd by +2 LO CC from Lucario, but she can set up Reflect before the second Close Combat, and start healing up (only can work with Max HP/Max Def).


I agree with Peachfuzz that a Choice Scarf Latios would be an excellent revenge killer to many of the metagame's threats (it can outspeed Deoxys-e!) Draco Meteor/Thunderbolt/Surf/HP Fire could work, although it's not meant to hit hard, just hit for super effective.

I doubt Psychic would be a good choice on many offensive sets of each, even though it's stronger than most of the attacks the twins have. The bad coverage, overwhelming amount of Steels that switch into it, as well as Tyranitar and Weavile who are happy to come in make it very risky.
 
I've sub/cm/dragon pulse/recover for Latios when I used him a year back when I bought up the idea fr testing them, and it is still my favorite set. Scizor, Weavile, Gyarados, Cm Blissey, and skarmory all make life hard for Lati@s though :(
 
I'm pondering on this set for a Latias Supporter / Mono-Attacker:

- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Wish
- Refresh / SafeGuard

Seems viable at the very least. SafeGuard and Refresh help against status while Calm Mind and Wish keep Latias bulky and healthy. And Dragon Pulse for... well, you get the picture. Another set that also seems viable:

- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse

Now this might not be used as much though, but this allows Latias to take Sleep as well.

And I know: Tyranitar bait. Still, we've all gotten around this before have we not?

Otherwise, SubCM sets seem good with Roost / Recover, and the Choice Specs sets seem scary for Latios. Oh yeah, Latias = best MixApe counter in the entire game. Now that is something that seems exciting to me.
 
I just want to say that, as far as I know, Soul Dew has not been definitively ruled out of being tested with Lati@s.
 
Similarly, it can come in on Specs hits like Dragon Pulse, Draco Meteor, etc... and not be 2HKO'd (Draco Meteor has a very slight, slight chance to 2HKO, but it has to roll max damage twice in a row) and either Crunch it for the same damage, or just Pursuit it as it tries to flee away (OHKOing it of course)

Modest, Choice Specs Surf 2HKOs all versions of Tyranitar, even Careful versions if you give it Stealth Rock. Draco Meteor 2HKOs a Max HP Tyranitar with Stealth Rock even if it rolls minimum damage twice (62% first hit, 31% second), so you have to use Careful to prevent that.

331 SpA Timid Yanmega's Bug Buzz vs. 364 HP/394 SpD Latias: 40.11%-47.80%

Sorry, this calc doesn't mean anything. The only Timid Yanmega you will find are Choice Specs.

I doubt Psychic would be a good choice on many offensive sets of each, even though it's stronger than most of the attacks the twins have. The bad coverage, overwhelming amount of Steels that switch into it, as well as Tyranitar and Weavile who are happy to come in make it very risky.

I strongly disagree here. If you read my sets I mentioned exclusively that Psychic IS a good option on Latios specifically. Since you have perfect neutral coverage already in Dragon Move / Water Move and some opt to use HP Fire Also, Psychic's coverage becomes a moot point. It is also STAB so it is a highly viable option, and will actually HELP your coverage, rather than hurt it. Instead of hitting the same things neutral (in the case of Dragon Pulse and Draco Meteor on the set), you now hit a few things super effective also.
 
If Garchomp is Uber then the Latis certainly are...

Which doesn't say much, since I don't think he is, but anyway;

Isn't Latios like a Gengar on steroids? The thing has the same ability, same speed, same Sp. Attack and pretty much the same weaknesses, but it has bigger defensive stats, physical and support options and a recovery move.

It's like combining Garchomp's speed with Dragonite's versatility; you get a Dragon that's pure gold. Not to mention that it does not share its fellow Dragons' embarrassing Ice-type weakness.

And Latias has nearly as many tricks up its sleeve as Alakazam or Clefable.

And that's all without the mighty Soul Dew.

But some say that, without it, Lati@s is acceptable, even beyond cheap. OK, so why don't we ban Chomp's Yache Berry? It's pretty much as good as a signature item, as most other pokemon couldn't afford the power drop from losing an item. Ban it, and we satisfy the stuffy old laws that say a pokemon must have a counter to not be broken. Things get quite bad when we consider banning items.

Anyway, the banning of all type-res. berries is unlikely to create any bereavement for any other pokemon (with the possible exception of its Dragon kindred, in which case it would be no bereavement to any other pokemon type...). But when we ban all pokemon-specific items? OK, Palkia can live without its Lustrous Orb. And the more traditional among us will impress upon us that Clamperl and Pikachu should not be viable anyway, and therefore their Deepseatooth and Light Ball losses are actually healthy for the UU metagame (or something like that...).

But Marowak. The Thick Club is its entire world, the only reason you'd ever decide to use him in front of... er, anything. Getting rid of it relegates it to that cesspit of NU, from which it can never return.

But, and here's the big thing, Giratina-O? The only reason it actually exists is because of its Platinum Orb. Getting rid of Soul Dew and all the other items is the same as getting rid of Giratina-O.

But back to Lati@s . They are both fast, both have options to cripple their 'counters' and can both heal themselves after use, unlike Chomp.

They cannot x2 their stats, its true. But they don't need to. They're fast enough to deal with many threats after just one boost.
 
I strongly disagree here. If you read my sets I mentioned exclusively that Psychic IS a good option on Latios specifically. Since you have perfect neutral coverage already in Dragon Move / Water Move and some opt to use HP Fire Also, Psychic's coverage becomes a moot point. It is also STAB so it is a highly viable option, and will actually HELP your coverage, rather than hurt it. Instead of hitting the same things neutral (in the case of Dragon Pulse and Draco Meteor on the set), you now hit a few things super effective also.

Psychic gives things like Tyranitar, Metagross, Weavile, etc...a free switch in. All of these can OHKO Latios with a CB attatched:

Crunch vs. 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 175.50%-207.28%

Meteor Mash vs. 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 110.26%-130.13%

Night Slash vs. 4 HP/0 Def Latios: 129.14%-152.98%

Dragon Pulse hits more things for neutral than Psychic, and the only reason to use Psychic is for things like Heracross or Infernape (only the former proves to be a pain). Dragon Pulse does more damage to everything bar Fighting and Poison types.

Eh, maybe it's just me, but I'd never use Psychic on any Latios. It is strong though, I can admit that. But most of the things that switch into Latios (Weavile, Tyranitar, Metagross, etc...) are all hit harder by Dragon Pulse (Psychic doesn't even hit Weavile/TTar).

Psychic has its uses, but when using it, you're taking a big risk.
 
I don't think so. It would basically force your team to have Mamo, Weavile, T-Tar, etc. because the two kick so much ass with Soul Dew.

I've played those bozos that try their OU teams in Ubers, and most of them, especially stall teams are blown away by Latias.

I think including the two would simply mean the end of stall teams. Sure sandstorm does hurt them, but they are immune to toxic and normal spikes, neutral to rocks. And what is stopping them from shredding a stall team apart? Blissey, unless it runs psych up or CM (which limits its use in normal OU play) is easily pounded to death by Mono-CM (though I guess sandstorm does take its toll). And the only thing that can phaze Latias would be a perish song pokemon, which is somewhat unpractical since they are likely to pull it off only once (Obi's perish song celebi takes a hefty 67% on average from a +1, Soul Dew Dragon Pulse).

If set up right, Latias can shred through stall teams very easily.
 
Jibaku said:
- Is Lugia really uber despite him being used a lot there? (random question)
This is why I think even non-suspect Ubers should be tested for like 3 days or something after all the suspects are done, we really have no idea what might become "Suspect" after we make some of our current Suspects OU and we want to "be sure" too.
 
Lati@s in OU would be the coolest thing ever! I would definatly vote yes for it. The points made suggest that they aren't broken at all. I would say atleast run a test.
 
There hasn't been much talk about HP fighting which is kind of surprising. Dragon/Fighting has near perfect coverage, arguably better than Dragon/Fire. Even a completely unboosted HPFight can 2HKO alot of common TTar spreads.

Latios' 252SPA Timid HPFight vs 252HP/4SPD Ttar: Damage: 51.73% - 60.89%

And 4HP Weavile gets OHKOed, while HP Fire will not even KO the same weavile even with SR damage unless it is boosted somehow.

You can also hit Heatran with fighting, and increase your Blissey damage. The main opponents of Dragon/Fighting are of course the steel/psychics, but Heatran and TTar are more common than all of them.

I'd personally run a Latios with Dragon Pulse/HPFight/Recover/Calm Mind.

This is the first test i'm really interested in because i've played with lati@s in OU before (soul dew banned of course) and they are as OU as it gets. There is no reason for them to be uber. This was before Platinum, although it seems things got even harder for Lati@s with Scizor around.

First of all, they suffer from moveslot syndrome. Without Safeguard or Refresh, it is countered by Blissey. Without Recover, it can't CM reliably. Pick one HP and you lose coverage on 5 other popular standards.

It also dies to all the common pursuiters unless it predicts correctly, and I doubt any one Latios can keep coverage on TTar, Scizor, Weavile and Metagross anyway. Most people won't be switching out of TTar or Weavile for fear of Pursuit anyway, so they probably won't even need to carry it.

So yeah...OU is my prediction, so long as Soul Dew is banned. Hopefully I can find the time to get my rating up for this one.

Also, the Thick Club comparisons don't hold any water. Thick Club does not break Marowak. Soul Dew breaks Lati@s. No comparison.
 
the fact that you have already made up your mind without testing probably means you wont be able to vote, sorry. and i am really liking a DD, outrage, EQ and HP fire set for a sort of anti metagame set.

this set would destroy sala, scizor, heatran AND bllissey, if played correctly. im not sure exactly how much a DD LO earthquake would do to tyranitar, but it would probably get close to killing it with SR damage.
 
the fact that you have already made up your mind without testing probably means you wont be able to vote, sorry. and i am really liking a DD, outrage, EQ and HP fire set for a sort of anti metagame set.

this set would destroy sala, scizor, heatran AND bllissey, if played correctly. im not sure exactly how much a DD LO earthquake would do to tyranitar, but it would probably get close to killing it with SR damage.

Salamence and dragonite that same set, but better...
 
the fact that you have already made up your mind without testing probably means you wont be able to vote, sorry. and i am really liking a DD, outrage, EQ and HP fire set for a sort of anti metagame set.

this set would destroy sala, scizor, heatran AND bllissey, if played correctly. im not sure exactly how much a DD LO earthquake would do to tyranitar, but it would probably get close to killing it with SR damage.

Even with SR damage, the OHKO only happens 7.69% of the time.
 
I'm so excited that i might finally be able to use my favorite pokemon in OU now.

I've used latios in the battle tower, where soul dew is banned, and it really is a force to be reckoned with, I really hope it makes it to OU though
 
Salamence and dragonite that same set, but better...

the thing is that no one is switching any of those pokemon into salamence on dragonite because they KNOW that they could be running that set. people will switch in those pokemon to latios due the the sheer power of the specs set. DD/outrage/eq/HPfire will act as a wall breaker, not a sweeper
 
Latios will be banned without doubt, i have organized a tournament in the past about Latias where Specslatias owned pretty much anything almost broken even. So yea Latios will beat absolutly anything

Seeing as Specslatios can switch in A LOT thanks to regular damage of SR spreading Draco meteors everywhere makes him far better then Specsmence ever was.
Ouch seems like i'm going to be forced to use Scizor as well....

Besides why does everyone think Lati@ are the same why do they have to be tested at the same time? The usage will 'split' so they will seem like perfectly valuable pokemon

As for DD, CB sets you might as well kick them out of the list. The effect of 'surprise' is extremely overrated. Just look at chainchomps useage in August
 
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