objectively correct ZA tier list
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Pet Mod Legends Z-A OU
- Thread starter dhelmise
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objectively correct ZA tier list
Mega Evolution: Meganium
New Ability: Full Bloom
Ability Description: This Pokemon's moves always behave as if sun is active.
Justification:
Meganium's ability has been heated discussion in this metagame. Triage was fun in theory, but ultimately not synergistic with Meganium's lack of strong recovery. It's current ability, Flower Veil, can help it be a status absorber, but that's not really enough value to take up your mega slot, especially with the recent cut distribution of Toxic. I propose an ability that enables Meganium offensively and defensively.
Full Bloom would allow Mega-Meganium's moves to always act like sun is up. This would mainly effect Solar Beam, Weather Ball, and Synthesis. Solar Beam becomes a reliable strong stab move to go along with its incredible SpATK, Weather Ball allows it to hit Steel types like Skarmory, and Synthesis becomes an extremely powerful 2/3 HP recovery move. Not to mention, it can do this without needing a sun setter (both of which are megas) or taking sun-boosted fire attacks. I think this would be a balanced change to give Meganium a better shot in the metagame.
New Ability: Full Bloom
Ability Description: This Pokemon's moves always behave as if sun is active.
Justification:
Meganium's ability has been heated discussion in this metagame. Triage was fun in theory, but ultimately not synergistic with Meganium's lack of strong recovery. It's current ability, Flower Veil, can help it be a status absorber, but that's not really enough value to take up your mega slot, especially with the recent cut distribution of Toxic. I propose an ability that enables Meganium offensively and defensively.
Full Bloom would allow Mega-Meganium's moves to always act like sun is up. This would mainly effect Solar Beam, Weather Ball, and Synthesis. Solar Beam becomes a reliable strong stab move to go along with its incredible SpATK, Weather Ball allows it to hit Steel types like Skarmory, and Synthesis becomes an extremely powerful 2/3 HP recovery move. Not to mention, it can do this without needing a sun setter (both of which are megas) or taking sun-boosted fire attacks. I think this would be a balanced change to give Meganium a better shot in the metagame.
none of these mfs got toxic back now???
(Yo what template did you use because I want to make my own tier list.)
Nah mtross unviable, krook mlop hippo above chomp and aegi
is Eelektross-Mega really bad?
It could be better ngl, I can't decide if I should be a physical attacker or special attacker
Eel is realistically a B- or so mon. Its offensively threatening beyond most of the rest of the tier given Ion Battery and its absurd special movepool, but at the same time, its taking 40% from Clefable's Moonblast, and while Levitate gives it some free switchins, the most common ground in the tier runs Mold Breaker most of the time, so it requires a lot of pivoting support to get in. Averages out to B- given that Hoopa has a lot of the same positive qualities, and doesn't take up a mega slot.
Eelektross is Hoopa-U that takes the mega slot but also brings pivoting on a STAB. It's exceptional against balance due to this, but also struggles vs offense which is the relevant archetype, and also isn't too good into Zygarde-10%. B/B- is probably a fair placement.
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Rash Nature
- Volt Switch
- Knock Off
- Flamethrower / Close Combat
- Giga Drain
Smash anything that isn't a Ground with Volt Switch while gaining momentum. Nothing that isn't an immunity likes switching into it and you can easily heavily chip at defensive cores. Knock hits Glowking very hard and gets rid of Boots while also removing Goodra-H's boots/AV/Leftovers. Flamethrower roasts Scizor on the spot while hitting Excadrill as well, but Close Combat is an option to directly threaten Goodra-H and Tyranitar. Giga Drain hits other Grounds like Garchomp, Krookodile and Hippowdon the hardest while giving some recovery.
Personally, I like pairing it with scarf Floette which draws in Steels, which Eelektross loves spamming Volt Switch against, while providing potential Wish or Aromatherapy support (scarf Floette only needs Light of Ruin + Moonblast so running Wish+Aromatherapy with it is optimal)
Eelektross-Mega @ Eelektrossite
Ability: Levitate
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe
Rash Nature
- Volt Switch
- Knock Off
- Flamethrower / Close Combat
- Giga Drain
Smash anything that isn't a Ground with Volt Switch while gaining momentum. Nothing that isn't an immunity likes switching into it and you can easily heavily chip at defensive cores. Knock hits Glowking very hard and gets rid of Boots while also removing Goodra-H's boots/AV/Leftovers. Flamethrower roasts Scizor on the spot while hitting Excadrill as well, but Close Combat is an option to directly threaten Goodra-H and Tyranitar. Giga Drain hits other Grounds like Garchomp, Krookodile and Hippowdon the hardest while giving some recovery.
Personally, I like pairing it with scarf Floette which draws in Steels, which Eelektross loves spamming Volt Switch against, while providing potential Wish or Aromatherapy support (scarf Floette only needs Light of Ruin + Moonblast so running Wish+Aromatherapy with it is optimal)
here are mons i consider proven and good, as well as my deep ponderings after cracking top 10 a few times. only going over mons i feel need elaborating.
The clear top two in my eyes. Virtually every team wants at least one of these. Skarmory is the best phazer, basically the only spiker that really wants to run the move, and one of literally two viable physical walls the tier has. Also has great set variety with spdef iron head (beating the two fairies and giving you more options in front of gren), idef sets etc. Clefable serves a similar flex tape-like purpose, though I think it should almost always be running calm mind. The best spreader of knock in the tier also. Physdef misses the mark against what youd really like to pivot into (Lopunny and band zygarde still fry you) so I'd encourage ppl to run full spdef or 68 in defense to live lorb bullet punch. Unaware is a godsend against floette and np gren and i find it superior to magic guard for most teams.
SD sets are clearly the best in my opinion. Earthquake and Fire Fang have perfect coverage for the tier, and even without loaded dice, scale shot lets it win games veery quickly. An elite breaker and one of the reasons every team needs a strong priority move.
I have a hard time acknowledging this mon since it's so overtly petmod-y. Run CM sub protect with max hp and speed. Needs extremely specific counterplay that's usually vulnerable to being worn down, unlike floette itself.
The best priority right now methinks. SD life orb knock off roost is a swiss army knife, band is similarly amazing. Very simple mon.
Enables offense for this tier because it can genuinely remove anything it wants. Boots, av, shuca, are all good but I don't rate AV as highly since it really needs taunt in order to remove slowking. In fighting game terms, this mon is a neutral skip.
Band was already zygarde's best set so zydog changes very little. Best breaker alongside lop for semi-stall and fat to use as a wincon. You could write a script to tell slowbro and clef to teleport into zydog every turn and probably maintain 80 gxe.
Similar role to volcanion with added benefit of being a soft gren check. Shuca, chople, and av are all excellent, if you speed creep skarm this will virtually always break something (except slowking)
Scarf or band pursuit with intim lets you remove a few problematic breakers. Specifically it gives you insurance vs delphox, zydog, starmie, hoopa, and slowkings and frees up defensive teambuilding the same way volcanion does for offense teams. Not the most splashable but it's veeery important for some teamstyles.M
It's more telegraphed on preview than you think, so don't play it like your opponent has no idea its weak armor. Regardless, this is a stupid good cleaner and fat breaker that auto-wins a lot of matchups since very few priority moves can actually remove this thing.M
Two overhyped mons in my opinion, their placement is more out of public consensus than how I actually rate them.
HO is on the weaker end right now. We're graced with defog skarm so dedicating a whole slot to hazards or screens in a tier with no light clay is shortsighted IMO.
This shit is butts. Worse sand setter than tar, and worse phaser than skarm, worse rocker than pretty much everything. Too passive for where the tier is right now.
Pretty good in theory, but it needs about 20 moves in order to do what it wants. Non-stab sucker punch just doesn't cut it. Speed tier too slow for webs to be valuable. Needs too much support to be worth your time methinks.
bandaid solutions for bad teams that are outclassed 90% of the time by better mons. I don't think I've seen a sash alakazam ever do anything, but these are OU by usage so I felt compelled to rank them.
Please do not use your mega slot on this. It has an amazing role in other tiers but the mega slot is simply too competitive for the special bulk to be worthwhile. Lorb, cb, and boots all do their job exceptionally well, it doesn't need the extra help.Anything omitted from the graphic is either complete garbo (mega excadrill, scolipede, clefable) or hasn't really been optimized enough for me to know where it lies (mega gatr, victreebel, barbaracle)
Don't use blastoise.
/SPOILER]
honestly really like this idea tbh. altho i have to say i feel like giving it a special signature if sun is actually up would be neat- the dex talks about how its flowers absorb sunlight to turn solar beam into "mega sol cannon" and i was thinking it could be implemented as a grass-type special gigaton hammer just to add that extra bit of flavor.
Scarf Gardevoir is pretty solid in this metagame. Perhaps its due to ladder shenanigans, but I've found that it catches most of the Greninja, Krookidile, Garchomp etc. off guard with boosted Speed, Trace is really useful utility to have vs annoying sweepers like Dragonite. To top it all off, it has Healing Wish and Trick to enable its offensive teammates. It helps that many of its checks have awkward MUs into its partner, Krookidile.
I think Starmie is a good mon, but the horrible Clefable MU makes it feel like it needs to be run with Excadrill usually. Not a bad pairing - the two actually have really nice synergy together - but I struggle to think of mons that benefit that much from double spin support. The one mon I have been running with both is Dragonite, who still has an awkward time since many teams pack 2-3 counters to it I feel. It usually works out better in practice, but it still is a bit stumped in this meta.
I think Starmie is a good mon, but the horrible Clefable MU makes it feel like it needs to be run with Excadrill usually. Not a bad pairing - the two actually have really nice synergy together - but I struggle to think of mons that benefit that much from double spin support. The one mon I have been running with both is Dragonite, who still has an awkward time since many teams pack 2-3 counters to it I feel. It usually works out better in practice, but it still is a bit stumped in this meta.
Unordered within tiers.
I am also a believer in Scarf Gardevoir. Those who played SV RU at any point know that this mon is actually great. Fast Moonblast is just great and Healing Wish is as broken as the best mons in the tier (and they're VERY broken)
Sharing this goated Lopunny-Mega HO team I've had some pretty good success with that uses Normal Gem Explosion Gourgeist as a spinblock partner to help Meowstic's hazards stay up.
https://pokepast.es/3d4f8b0d4f75699c
This team feels really good though you could potentially experiment with the last, I was thinking maybe Excadrill as a way to remove hazards and threaten Tyranitar and Clefable better who are usually a problem though Choice Band Extreme Speed feels too hard to pass up on for how many times it has saved me.
Offensive Gourgeist is a lot better than you'd think whilst still walling important physical attackers effectively like Zygarde-10% and Excadrill and then threatening a powerful Gourgeist and Will-O-Wisps. It feels like it works in tandem with Lopunny-Mega well too, being able to Explode on switches to chip them into range of its attacks. As well as this, using Explosion and then sending in Greninja to get a Battle Bond boost feels really good.
https://pokepast.es/3d4f8b0d4f75699c
This team feels really good though you could potentially experiment with the last, I was thinking maybe Excadrill as a way to remove hazards and threaten Tyranitar and Clefable better who are usually a problem though Choice Band Extreme Speed feels too hard to pass up on for how many times it has saved me.
Offensive Gourgeist is a lot better than you'd think whilst still walling important physical attackers effectively like Zygarde-10% and Excadrill and then threatening a powerful Gourgeist and Will-O-Wisps. It feels like it works in tandem with Lopunny-Mega well too, being able to Explode on switches to chip them into range of its attacks. As well as this, using Explosion and then sending in Greninja to get a Battle Bond boost feels really good.
got top 20 and these are some of my takes, gonna try to keep this brief and focus more on the megas cuz thats why we here
- Gren is the only straight up problematic presence in the tier imo, both regular and mega were the consistent troublesome mfs in my games, there is just no counter whatsoever to gren, spdef clef eventually meets with sludge wave or gunk gren and falls flat as a check, vap and umbreon are very passive and can be fodder for other sets like np and umbreon takes a good chunk to protean uturn, very few things outspeed regular gren and basically only scarfers and prio can reliably rk mega gren which is the appeal of running it in the first place. Im convinced this should just go, i could suggest a mega gren nerf but even regular is just silly - Mega Floette is SO FUCKING GOOD, this thing has carried me countless times, it is essentially Suicune, not sure what other sets are possible with it but SubCM Tect (VinEtte? VinFlo?) is just a pain to deal with paired with Ange, ik its most def not getting that on the actual game but god I wish. This can beat p much ANY special attacker, even special steel and poison, Sub Tect lets you PP Stall many mons out there and that chip vs opposing megas with Ange can be really big. Regular is mid tho
- Shit, I overlooked this mon, it is remarkably hard to deal with once it gets a Shell Smash up, this mon singlehandedly could make super important to run prio, cuz thats usually how u take it down.
- Good mon, Levitate does wonders to it, outspeeding regular Gren is big, but it is not easy to sweep with it as the bulk is still not there on top of all the top prio moves all stopping it with ease like Grens shuriken, Starmies AJet and Aegis Sneak. Still very fast and very strong and very few teams can afford to switch on it
- Veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery strong, close to no switch-ins with exceptions like Gourgeist, Slowking, Hoodra kinda and other much nicher ones, can and should run Tbolt for stuff like Slowbro and Skarm and it can go either with prio (very relevant in the Krook and sand Drill mus) or Flip Turn to pivot out to other threats. Being slower than Gren is a detriment though
- Very fat, and the only fat team that gave me a lot of trouble had this. With regen it can softcheck a lot and has ton of utility to work with. This is a buff the mon really needed
- Im gonna be honest I havent fought it here ever but Ive seen one replay of it clicking Diamond Storm into BPress vs what looked like an AV Hoodra and I felt like this shit was sheist af, thats to show how much it can hit, Mystical Fire is a very useful tool for Scizor and Skarm while you have Diamond Storm, Moonblast, Earth Power or the aforementioned Body Press, nothing really switches into this, its a shame Gren makes it run for its money and getting outsped by Zydog is also no bueno
- Very useful speed tier and prio options, its good as anyone would antecipate, the thing that messes it up the most is how chip damage is abundant in the tier, a lot uses Helmet and screws it over, Bro, Skarm, TankChomp, Gourgeist, Spikes being insanely common and honestly not too easy to get rid of. It thrives on the more offensive mus but it struggles with the pesky little damages overtime. Also SD is some mid shit.
- Actually very threatening sporting the same offensive typing as Gren and even using Gren as setup fodder. Imo its one of the staple HO megas alongside Barbaracle and Skarm, can be tough to stop it from sweeping if your Skarm is low or gone.
- Ok who thought about giving it Sharpness? Despite me ranking it in A- I still think its a bit of a stupid decision as it literally 2 shots EVERYTHING, bar like Sableye I think? Its not too frail and what actually keeps it not higher is the speed which is just ok and can actually make it often be more of a trade machine, but a HELL of a trade machine, ppl say Gren invalidates balance, no, THIS invalidates balance. - Ngl its the ultimate partner to Meowstic in HO as Skarm abuses any Spin attempt to get the +2 speed and be a pain to deal with, sure abundance of prio keeps it at bay but its a very threatening mon that abuses Excadrill like literally nothing else. Its a bit reliant on the speed boost cuz picking it off with Gren or Zydog or scarfers is relatively easy.
- Chesnaught is a cool mon but u usually dedicate Skarm or Chomp to be vomitting Spikes both of which can equally screw Drill and doesnt cost a mega slot, does have cool traits at least as it beats a LOT of dedicated phys threats like Chomp, Zydog, Scizor, Ttar, MGyara, MLop and its one of the only mons to eat a +2 CC from MBarb NEUTRALLY, it can even eat a Mawile PRough. Zardy breaks decent but the speed is p bad and the rocks weakness in a tier where getting rid of them is not that easy is even worse, Zardy demands double removal, but as you would expect, nothing really switches in. Dragalge im prob overrating it but I really like its flexibility as a Regen pivot with Flip Turn, while also being slow making teammates get in safe, p much impossible to ohko it on the special spectrum, pair this with Steel abusers. Eel is a crazy breaker destroys fatter teams by itself and even works solid in Webs, the thing is that the tier is very unfriendly to it, Levitate would have much higher value if it didnt have to deal with Mold Breaker Drill all the time, struggling to break through Chomp and Hoodra if no Drain Punch (why would u even run it) and offense being the reigning force in the tier makes it get 1 kill at most, sometimes none. Froslass is kinda FroslASS, good breaking potential but weak to rocks, struggles like hell vs Ttar and SpDef Clef, it is frail and Pursuitable and picked off by prio and it is freaking outsped by guess who???? Mawile has great breaking potential but it is way too slow for this meta and Sucker Punch doesnt really get many benefits vs the top mons in the tier, ends up as another trade machine. feels almost necessary on many non HO teams, crazy utility and good with both Unaware and MGuard, CM is kinda ass. Every set is good, SD is nice, Tank is nice, MixChomp is nice, nothing to add just a great mon to have. is cool, Spikes is oppressive here and it can Defog itself and be a pain to most removal. 
is very flexible but SD is my favorite set, prio is very important to have afterall and it is amongst the strongest out of the users. 
the best spinner although it still struggles vs most setters, I really fw Scarf Drill in the tier, it can revenge so much and Mold Breaker helping a lot here, Sand Rush is kinda mid unfort. Hoodra softchecks 80% of the tier and has great defensive value and its one of the few helps vs Gren. Very flexible mon with great coverage and utility options with Tox, Defog, Roar or u just 4A. 
struggles to sweep vs any fatter team but its great vs Offense due to Multiscale, defensive value with typing and Roost, prio and good snowballing potential. Imo 
and 
are equally good, both with their own merits, Slowking being better vs Delphox, Volc, Starmie, Diancie and not immediately fucked by Gren whilst Bro is better at taking on Zydog, Chomp, Drill and Lop. Zydog is very strong but its not broken, its a good rkiller but def not without switch-ins, Bro, Gourgeist, Chesnaught and physdef Clef, and its also not the fastest thing either making it not too crazy vs offense, just a very good breaker. is a very valuable piece for teams cuz of that juicy prio, bulky lefties SD is cool, offensive LO SD is cool, CB is cool, just don't use Defog on it, nor its mega, its not worth a whole mega slot for such similar roles. 
is p good and invalidates some stuff by itself, breaks p solidly too, but sand is really not that good.Won't elaborate further into the rankings but imo the only clear problem is Gren, it imposes such a chokehold into the tier that im sure it would be more desirable to NOT have to deal with it, Mega would be fixable if even regular itself wasn't crazy, so just ban it imo. Keep an eye on Barb and mainly Gallade, if Gren goes keep an eye on Starmie. Thats it for me, the tier is chaotic but grinding was fun and make UU playable, bye
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https://www.smogon.com/stats/2025-10/gen9legendszaou-1630.txt
Hello, usage stats came out today, here is your full list of OU Pokemon, sorted properly
Clefable (39.940%)
Excadrill (34.492%)
Greninja (34.136%)
Skarmory (33.230%)
Garchomp (29.582%)
Dragonite (25.344%)
Aegislash (24.479%)
Scizor (21.088%)
Volcanion (16.618%)
Slowbro (15.523%)
Slowking-Galar (15.018%)
Tyranitar (13.590%)
Hoopa-Unbound (12.766%)
Starmie-Mega (11.981%)
Goodra-Hisui (9.724%)
Greninja-Mega (8.404%)
Slurpuff (7.900%)
Zygarde-10% (7.572%)
Alakazam (7.476%)
Krookodile (7.281%)
Gengar (7.256%)
Umbreon (7.117%)
Delphox-Mega (6.920%)
Talonflame (6.618%)
Skarmory-Mega (6.541%)
Gourgeist-Super (6.321%)
Gyarados (6.224%)
Meowstic-F (6.056%)
Meowstic-M (6.056%)
Floette-Mega (5.502%)
Chesnaught (5.121%)
Dragonite-Mega (5.043%)
Vaporeon (4.980%)
Starmie (4.902%)
Slowking (4.890%)
OU by technicality
Chesnaught-Mega (3.275%)
Clefable-Mega (1.637%)
Excadrill-Mega (2.142%)
Garchomp-Mega (0.753%)
Gyarados-Mega (0.901%)
Scizor-Mega (1.121%)
Slowbro-Mega (0.226%)
Tyranitar-Mega (0.381%)
Pokemon that missed the mark (aka new megas whose usage is harder to see split)
Gallade-Mega (3.941%)
Floette-Eternal (3.696%)
Chandelure (3.648%)
Chandelure-Mega (1.364%)
Delphox (0.517%)
We got 246.5k games in ~11 days of ladder uptime, so thanks so much everyone for participating@
Hello, usage stats came out today, here is your full list of OU Pokemon, sorted properly
Clefable (39.940%) Excadrill (34.492%) Greninja (34.136%) Skarmory (33.230%) Garchomp (29.582%) Dragonite (25.344%) Aegislash (24.479%) Scizor (21.088%) Volcanion (16.618%) Slowbro (15.523%) Slowking-Galar (15.018%) Tyranitar (13.590%) Hoopa-Unbound (12.766%) Starmie-Mega (11.981%) Goodra-Hisui (9.724%) Greninja-Mega (8.404%) Slurpuff (7.900%) Zygarde-10% (7.572%) Alakazam (7.476%) Krookodile (7.281%) Gengar (7.256%) Umbreon (7.117%) Delphox-Mega (6.920%) Talonflame (6.618%) Skarmory-Mega (6.541%) Gourgeist-Super (6.321%) Gyarados (6.224%) Meowstic-F (6.056%) Meowstic-M (6.056%) Floette-Mega (5.502%) Chesnaught (5.121%) Dragonite-Mega (5.043%) Vaporeon (4.980%) Starmie (4.902%) Slowking (4.890%)OU by technicality
Chesnaught-Mega (3.275%) Clefable-Mega (1.637%) Excadrill-Mega (2.142%) Garchomp-Mega (0.753%) Gyarados-Mega (0.901%) Scizor-Mega (1.121%) Slowbro-Mega (0.226%) Tyranitar-Mega (0.381%)Pokemon that missed the mark (aka new megas whose usage is harder to see split)
Gallade-Mega (3.941%) Floette-Eternal (3.696%) Chandelure (3.648%) Chandelure-Mega (1.364%) Delphox (0.517%)We got 246.5k games in ~11 days of ladder uptime, so thanks so much everyone for participating@
Anyone been experimenting with Mega Meganium builds? In Blunders tournaments ive seen a lot of sun or knock/dtail but obviously thats a very different metagame with way more options available and the centralizing threats here are moreso than SV. Curious to know what people have been messing around with, even if there are certainly better uses of a mega slot.
I never use Mega Meganium simply because it is walled by Skarm which has infinite usage rn, I don't want my only mega to be hard walled by the mon with 33% usage.
ATM with current Ange, Floette-Mega kinda just beats every stall team you can possibly make in this format, but the mon largely sucks against more offensive builds. I think that's unhealthy to have in the format especially since it's an ability we've made ourselves. Most people are playing offence anyway, perhaps because there's a mon who stall or fat balance loses to on matchup.
Proposing new Ange:
Mega Evolution: Floette
New Ability: Ange
Ability Description (if it doesn't currently exist): This Pokémon takes 3/4 damage from attacks from opposing Mega-Evolved Pokémon (Filter's effect applied differently)
Reasoning: This conserves the idea behind Floette-Mega's current ability (which I think is good and makes sense) of it being the "ultimate" mega evolution who takes energy from other mega evolved Pokémon. It even conserves the idea of it doing this as a form of self-preservation, which is appropriate with its whole "eternal" flavour. However, it balances Floette-Mega's matchups more so that it can do more against offence, since this bulk boost will be more relevant than passive healing against teams with high damage output, while also making it less of a free counterteam to bulkier builds that can't outdamage the healing of Ange behind SubTect stall. Or who can only outdamage the healing of Ange with their mega, who can be stalled thanks to the HP vamp, so they still lose.
Proposing new Ange:
Mega Evolution: Floette
New Ability: Ange
Ability Description (if it doesn't currently exist): This Pokémon takes 3/4 damage from attacks from opposing Mega-Evolved Pokémon (Filter's effect applied differently)
Reasoning: This conserves the idea behind Floette-Mega's current ability (which I think is good and makes sense) of it being the "ultimate" mega evolution who takes energy from other mega evolved Pokémon. It even conserves the idea of it doing this as a form of self-preservation, which is appropriate with its whole "eternal" flavour. However, it balances Floette-Mega's matchups more so that it can do more against offence, since this bulk boost will be more relevant than passive healing against teams with high damage output, while also making it less of a free counterteam to bulkier builds that can't outdamage the healing of Ange behind SubTect stall. Or who can only outdamage the healing of Ange with their mega, who can be stalled thanks to the HP vamp, so they still lose.
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I'd like to speak on the behalf of the rest of the Council Members publicly as to why we haven't taken action on Mega Greninja despite a lot of players calling it out for being too overwhelming for the tier, saying that it can break through a lot of would be checks and that its speed is overwhelming for the tier. When it had Technician, I would say a lot of these points were true as it could Flip Turn on its checks and easily wear them down such as Clefable and buff weaker moves like Grass Knot against Vaporeon and Hidden Power but that ability is now a thing of the past.
The most important point to note is that its ability is Protean, an ability that can be detrimental and make it thud after locking itself into an undesirable type. A common point that is brought up is that Mega Greninja can break through anything with its coverage such as Gunk Shot/Sludge Wave into Clefable and Low Kick into Hisuian Goodra for examples but forget that to break through a team Mega Greninja needs to get every predict right and can be exploited when it loses its STABs as it succumbs to its frailty. Being a hard Pokémon to bring in, most games it typically pivots around with U-Turn and is unable to break through teams as people argue it can on paper. Scouting Mega Greninja's move set isn't too hard and many of the players I've seen trying to run niche moves whilst foregoing necessary moves in order to get past one specific check then get completely answered by other common defensive Pokémon on teams and it is clear the Pokémon is more broken on paper than anything else. Besides being a fast pivot, the Council agrees that it has reasonable counter play and many have brought up how base Greninja is so strong which calls into question the opportunity cost of running Mega Greninja compared to anything else. Base Greninja being arguably the best Pokémon in tier and fulfilling the rare role of a fast offensive Pokémon without the requirement of a Mega Stone makes it not really worth the Mega slot as giving it to another Pokémon instead can give you a fast and offensive breaking core such as Lopunny-Mega + Base Greninja. Something to think about is the thought that I've seen expressed a few times and that is the fact of Mega Greninja potentially being worse than base due to the potency of Battle Bond.
As well as this, though I wouldn't want this to be the strongest point to be taken away from our decision, is that Mega Greninja is a new Mega and that we'd like to keep it in the tier for the sake of that. This is the main reason we nerfed it after all, the purpose of this tier being to try out the new Megas. Compared to something like Mega Metagross, not only is it not close to as broken as it was the removal of it meant little due to it being an old Mega. The takeaway I don't want to be had is that if Mega Greninja was broken we'd do everything in our power to keep it, but that we should think carefully before voting for a ban just because it is a strong option.
For now our stance is to leave it, though discussion is encouraged and important so if you have anything to say you can say it in the thread and on Discord.
The most important point to note is that its ability is Protean, an ability that can be detrimental and make it thud after locking itself into an undesirable type. A common point that is brought up is that Mega Greninja can break through anything with its coverage such as Gunk Shot/Sludge Wave into Clefable and Low Kick into Hisuian Goodra for examples but forget that to break through a team Mega Greninja needs to get every predict right and can be exploited when it loses its STABs as it succumbs to its frailty. Being a hard Pokémon to bring in, most games it typically pivots around with U-Turn and is unable to break through teams as people argue it can on paper. Scouting Mega Greninja's move set isn't too hard and many of the players I've seen trying to run niche moves whilst foregoing necessary moves in order to get past one specific check then get completely answered by other common defensive Pokémon on teams and it is clear the Pokémon is more broken on paper than anything else. Besides being a fast pivot, the Council agrees that it has reasonable counter play and many have brought up how base Greninja is so strong which calls into question the opportunity cost of running Mega Greninja compared to anything else. Base Greninja being arguably the best Pokémon in tier and fulfilling the rare role of a fast offensive Pokémon without the requirement of a Mega Stone makes it not really worth the Mega slot as giving it to another Pokémon instead can give you a fast and offensive breaking core such as Lopunny-Mega + Base Greninja. Something to think about is the thought that I've seen expressed a few times and that is the fact of Mega Greninja potentially being worse than base due to the potency of Battle Bond.
As well as this, though I wouldn't want this to be the strongest point to be taken away from our decision, is that Mega Greninja is a new Mega and that we'd like to keep it in the tier for the sake of that. This is the main reason we nerfed it after all, the purpose of this tier being to try out the new Megas. Compared to something like Mega Metagross, not only is it not close to as broken as it was the removal of it meant little due to it being an old Mega. The takeaway I don't want to be had is that if Mega Greninja was broken we'd do everything in our power to keep it, but that we should think carefully before voting for a ban just because it is a strong option.
For now our stance is to leave it, though discussion is encouraged and important so if you have anything to say you can say it in the thread and on Discord.
Yeah, this was kind of what was coming to mind after posting. While its nice to be able to own something like the dragons or Slowbro/Vape/threaten gren, it seems like skarm forces you out regardless of set, and if its Mega Skarm you may well have just lost the game by giving a free swords dance