Lethal fashion trend of skinny models-- Should it change?

[Nix_Hex]

Twiggy

I don't really see the problem there. She's gorgeous.

Echoing Fishy's, DM's, and NJ's sentiments that banning someone based on something as subjective (yes) as BMI is not only retarded, but in in the US it would be regarded as discrimination. I don't know what such laws are in place in Isreal and frankly don't care, but my point is that this is really prejudice against an arbitrary group of individuals. If you quickly thought "AGREE", at least try to see the logic and reconsider. When you say something like "I hate skinny women" it's obvious that you're exaggerating and you don't actually hate them (I hope), but it is a pretty terrible thing to say nonetheless, especially in an intelligent discussion. This sort of thinking is completely regressive and it's sad to see this taking place within this thread, even in the op!

 

[X5Dragon]

I don't want to promote conspiracy theories but maybe because the fashion industry is dominated by homosexual men that the women models... I dunno look similar?

In any case there should be a heavy ad campaign to promote the natural look and feel of women (dove ad anyone?) because we all know banking won't do much in this case.

Edit: this is not about hating skinny women, this about hating an industry that promotes being artificially, dangerously underweight as an idealism. Last time I checked these models live in Milan and Newyork not east Africa.

Edit2: I don't find that model attractive Nix. She looks like a boy, even the natural fat deposits in a women found in the thighs and breast areas seem absent in her, and I bet you she done this to herself. Less plastic women more Candince Swapoels.

 

[Fishy]

child daemon, I completely agree with your idea of the BMI number being a guideline, and not just some random number plucked from the air that people are supposed to abide by. I guess I just don't feel comfortable comparing it to age as far as it being arbitrary or not because the "value" of a BMI of 18 does not mean the same thing for everyone. sure, being 18 or 21 or 25 may not signify the same level of maturity for other people across the board, but age isn't something you can necessarily control. I guess my real problem is still the focus on a number, or generally accepted guideline, to dictate what women should be able to model and those who should not. if these guidelines are instated to promote a healthier image of women in the modeling world - that's fine - I just don't believe that all girls with a BMI of 18 automatically look anorexic or unhealthy - some girls can have such a BMI and be completely healthy. Age is something you cannot dispute, but it's nearly hypocritical to dismiss a healthy woman from modeling if her BMI falls under the ban limit.

 

[vonFiedler]

I like skinny women, I don't necessarily like the attitude that skinny women are "disgusting" and I certainly wouldn't legislate BMI in real life for a hundred different reasons.

But get real people. Rules like this don't "exclude" anyone because fashion models are people who regulate their BMI as a profession. Any model in Isreal without serious eating disorders is just going to work on increasing their BMI to acceptable levels, and probably has been for quite a while (laws take time to pass and enact). Eating disorders kill people and not only do fashion models die, but people who try to look like fashion models (and people will always try to look like fashion models). Skinny women are not going to go extinct because of laws like this, an 18.5 isn't even curvy to begun with, but the notion is "don't risk your health for your job" and people have a problem with this?

I mean REALLY, "ah gah yeah we're promoting fatness with a BMI of 18.5", Megan Fox is an 18.6. Let THAT sink in.

 

[Trax]

Anyone dumb enough to be influenced by obviously unhealthy images should be allowed to do so; if we can get rid of people that stupid the human race is better off.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

It's entirely the fashion society, no one in mainstream society thinks this is ok. In fact, I have yet to meet anyone in real life that is a fan of fashion.

 

[vonFiedler]

It's entirely the fashion society, no one in mainstream society thinks this is ok. In fact, I have yet to meet anyone in real life that is a fan of fashion.

Because the only kind of fashion models are the ones at "high class" runways wearing eyeball vagina suits, no, go to the nearest mall and then come back and tell me that fashion models are not mainstream. Watch half an hour of TV.

 

[November Blue]

This has always been a very black and white issue for me. My understanding of it at least.

The fashion industry employs and idealizes skeletal models, and these become the "standard." It's (subliminally) implied that skeletal is beautiful, and you should look like this too, because this is what every attractive desirable woman should look like.

I've heard about women employed by the fashion industry; they have stories to tell, and it's reminiscent of someone whistleblowing a cult. These women were pressured to lose weight, then lose more, to the point that they'd be much thinner than they should be (and feel comfortable with) and are then asked to lose more weight. They starve themselves, it becomes a self-imposed torture ...

I'm not saying that every fashion industry or company does this. I don't know if they do. I do know that it's compounded by fashion magazines that publish those "LOOK WHO'S FATTER THIS MONTH!" articles, and edit photos of models to make them look thinner.

To me, this isn't about one party imposing their own views and tastes on/in women onto the fashion industry. This is about normalizing a damaging and unhealthy practice that, when stamped out, will promote a healthier, more realistic image of "the ideal woman" that isn't going to cause eating disorders in the general population.

Discriminating against skinny women or banning certain people from the fashion industry as a counterargument is fucking ludicrous. People shouldn't look like this in the first place, and naturally skinny people will still get their fair share; using BMI measurements as a yardstick measurement is laughably inaccurate, and Israel will (probably) eventually work out a better standard through trial and error.

The problem is that some number or incremental standard is needed; you can't just go by "we'll use our judgment to determine who is too thin or not" because it's subjective, and I'd imagine that that was a contributing factor to the instigation of this issue in the first place. Probably just wishful thinking though.

 

[DM]

Anyone dumb enough to be influenced by obviously unhealthy images should be allowed to do so; if we can get rid of people that stupid the human race is better off.

Easy for you to say. You're a man.

Eating disorders are real, and they kill. And they don't need the fashion industry to be spread among our youth, also. But having these disingenuous, unrealistic, and harmful ads certainly doesn't help.

 

[WaterBomb]

my BMI is under 18.

I thought yetis were like, huge or something?

 

[PK Gaming]

Man, I really hate to be that guy.

But if I offended any of you ladies, i'm truly and honestly sorry.

 

[Chou Toshio]

I'm not sure if the "ban" is legal or simply professional (on a company-by-company) basis, at which point it would be the same as modelling companies now not picking fat women.

Anyway, if you don't like BMI choose another method--

When I wrestled in highschool, we all did an annual hydration test + fat test to measure body fat and set a "minimum weight" below which we would not be allowed to fall lest we be unallowed to compete. It was a pretty effective method, and certainly kept our state (Hawaii) from cutting weight to unhealthy levels practiced at college/olympic wrestling and many other states.

I think what measure isn't as important as whether or not you'd be for an objective measure of some sort of acceptable weight/fat/something to guide whether a model is healthy or not before allowing her to model.

Frankly, I think it can only be a good idea-- perhaps because I am in part too swayed by being haunted with experiences of female relatives near and dear who were besought by eating disorders-- running the story by them, they all thought it was a fantastic idea.

 

[Pernicious]

hmm, interesting topic, i pretty much agree that we shouldn't discriminate against women with different body types as it just serves to promote harmful societal mandates of what is considered beautiful or not that in the long run hurt girls everywhere. but i wonder if israel's actions are geared more towards fixing a "problem" -- that of women being basically forced to starve themselves in order to compete with other women in the modeling industry as well as to conform with producers and designers prejudiced wishes. yes, BMI isn't the best indicator of body weight and girls who are just naturally skinny, ie not starving themselves, should not have opportunities for employment denied to them. but models really do have serious problems with regulation of their attitudes and body (there was a pretty interesting expose with ny model sara ziff in the news recently, who talking about how models deserved more unionized rights, was angry that "[a girl] might have been forced to drop out of school at 15 so that she could work for a photographer who demands hand jobs at castings.") i don't know if enough girls would be "saved" by the ban to overcome the discrimination against girls who aren't being forced to conform. but i don't think it's all prejudice, there's obviously problems facing girls in the industry. whether this ban will help or not is a different story. i think that's really more the issue here, not whether we "like" fat or skinny girls more.

(edit: reading over this topic, i basically agree with everything myzozoa said: yes, it's prejudicial to make women conform to societal standards but there's also serious health issues involved so i don't think we should be looking at this in terms of "it's completely bigoted" or "this is a step in the right direction." it's an imposed solution to a real problem that carries with it intrinsic prejudice. whether the "benefits" outweigh the "costs" is imo the real topic at hand.)

 

[Codraroll]

I say, ban them all.

That is, do it like they do with crew serving on oil platforms: Require an annual doctor's approval to be certified to work [as a model]. As somebody have said, BMI is misleading. I read in the newspaper a couple of days ago about an anorexic girl who "simply" downed a few litres of water before seeing the doctor, so her BMI would go over 15 or whatever it was. Below that, and she would have been placed under forced care or whatever it's called. The numbers said she was above the limit. Reality said she was dying. It's too easy to cheat the raw numbers, but a proper doctors' approval - not so much.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

all this ban is doing is creating ANOTHER arbitrary standard of beauty. healthy or not, imagine a bracket of weight considered beautiful on a number line - all you're doing is moving it slightly to the right.

EXACTLY. This ban boils down to people saying "we don't like their view of beauty, so we are going to force everyone to use ours instead". It's completely hypocritical and frankly disgusting that they would force people to adhere to their standards. Let's make skinny people feel unhealthy and disgusting! That will make our problems go away!

Easy for you to say. You're a man.

Eating disorders are real, and they kill. And they don't need the fashion industry to be spread among our youth, also. But having these disingenuous, unrealistic, and harmful ads certainly doesn't help.

I'm confused, are you saying that men aren't portrayed in a certain way in the fashion industry? That men don't face the same images put in front of them and the same arbitrary standards of beauty? Like, if I went through any fashion magazine for pictures of men, what percentage do you think would be skinny with a 6-pack and the most chiseled face imaginable? My guess is 100%

Why are men not afflicted with these mental problems on a wide scale that force them to stop eating? Nobody has ever asked me to be concerned with disorders caused by male models. This entire "problem" with image in the fashion industry comes from female jealousy. It's obviously not a trait exclusive to girls, but it would be pretty hard to convince me that it's not the motivating factor behind this ban.

I'm not sure if the "ban" is legal or simply professional (on a company-by-company) basis, at which point it would be the same as modelling companies now not picking fat women.

Voluntarily changing your standards is perfectly acceptable, and is the ONLY way of changing society's viewpoints as a whole. Banning skinny models is not going to stop people from being more attracted to skinny people, and like I said it actually reinforces the idea that skinny people are better because now they become this exotic forbidden flavor.

When I wrestled in highschool, we all did an annual hydration test + fat test to measure body fat and set a "minimum weight" below which we would not be allowed to fall lest we be unallowed to compete. It was a pretty effective method, and certainly kept our state (Hawaii) from cutting weight to unhealthy levels practiced at college/olympic wrestling and many other states.

Wrestling is a completely different ballgame. The things they do to their bodies are fucked up. I've seen my friends literally eat ice for dinner because they had to keep weight. They'll run with trash bags on to dehydrate themselves, then stuff their face at night between the weigh-in and the match. Kudos to your coaches for not letting you hurt yourselves like that. But again, notice how that is voluntary and in a sport where injury is a real possibility even if you do everything right.

I guess my main problem in this thread is people assuming that skinny people are always unhealthy and people with "meat on their bones" are more healthy.

 

[vonFiedler]

I guess my main problem in this thread is people assuming that skinny people are always unhealthy and people with "meat on their bones" are more healthy.

I guess my main problem with your main problem is your assumption that 18.5 on the body mass index means fat.

We say "don't kill yourselves over being thin" and you assume we want all models to be fat. It's just a modicum of health and safety regulations for fashion workers.

Why are men not afflicted with these mental problems on a wide scale that force them to stop eating?

Because not eating doesn't help men get the chiseled 6-packs you describe. Male models have a weight goal and that is all we are saying the female models should have, cause right now the more dangerously skinny the better.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I guess my main problem with your main problem is your assumption that 18.5 on the body mass index means fat.

I don't see where I made that assumption. Maybe my post wasn't clear because I use "fatter" and "fat" interchangeably, and in the context of skinny models where 18.5 could actually be considered fat. Obviously 18.5 isn't fat as in health problem fat, but it is fat enough to make these jealous beasts satisfied with their anti-skinny hatred. That doesn't change the fact that it's a completely arbitrary and inaccurate way of measuring someone's health.

We say "don't kill yourselves over being thin" and you assume we want all models to be fat. It's just a modicum of health and safety regulations for fashion workers.

Again, I don't see where I made that assumption. And I don't think it's about safety regulation considering that none of the posters complaining about skinny models are saying "I'm worried about the models' safety." They are saying "I'm worried that someone who looks at the picture will ignore all logic and make themselves have an eating disorder"

Other than Chou, nobody in this thread has been concerned with the health of the skinny people themselves (and that was only in the context of wrestling, not modelling). Everyone is more concerned about the affect the models have on people's fragile self-esteem. So forgive me if I don't buy your argument here because it could be applied to literally anything. Maybe we should ban smart people from writing books because it would make all the aspiring authors feel stupid and they might hurt themselves staying up late and taking adderall trying to be like them.

Because not eating doesn't help men get the chiseled 6-packs you describe. Male models have a weight goal and that is all we are saying the female models should have, cause right now the more dangerously skinny the better.

So why do we not see hoardes of men dying in the gym trying to get a 6-pack like all the models in the fashion industry? Even things like steroids are abused for performance in sports/weightlifting, not because they want to look like models. Skinny models are just a convenient scapegoat for girls with eating disorders. If this problem was so serious that it really needed a law, you would think that it would also affect men.

 

[Pernicious]

@ the discussion above (just because i have time)

i totally agree that we need to focus on models' safety and i actually do think people in this thread have advocated "safety measures" instead of just saying they dont like skinny girls. to talk briefly about what's been said concerning societal mandates on how women should look. i do not think society is organically shifting towards "wow skinny women are ugly, let's force girls to eat more instead and we'll shift the societal standard towards more conservative ideals of feminine beauty." that obviously could happen organically and there have been more radical shifts towards beauty in the history of society anyway, but i think (and there's obviously a spectrum here of actual concern vs personal preference) many people are being conditioned to say "girls with more 'meat on their bones'" are 'better' or more desirable as a countermeasure to a lot of the eating disorders that have become really prevalent. it's a reverse vicious cycle in a way -- we have this societal standard that's poisonous to many. so to counteract that we reverse the standard and say skinny girls are worse. it's a mixed bag... to categorize people who are on the "medical" end of that scale and are trying to reduce societal mandates of "you must be thin -- to the point of an eating disorder" as bigoted i think is not entirely accepting the whole truth. something can have negative effects without the intention being wholly negative and in that regard i dont think israel is "wrong" to (ostensibly given we don't know their subconscious motivation) advocate as vonfiedler said for more safety regulations. i don't think israelian fashion companies that set standards are "jealous beasts" lol. it's more of a nuanced issue

 

[Gerard]

oh and ps the BMI scale is a terrible indicator of health

This, this is the reason I don't like the measure, a tall naturally-skinny woman might be that way without starving herself, the same way a shorter but muscular guy is considered fat by his BMI, if you want to ban something do it right

Other than that I also don't think this is something that should ban models from participating just because of their weight, but because of the overal health, my teacher does exactly that, she won't allow any girl to walk unless they are healthy (she owns the model agency and is the designer behind a lot of the clothing), they all have nutrition classes and excessive regularly, most of them are thin, none has an eating disorder, and I think this is how it should be done, to make them say, you can be healthy and look like a model, you don't have to choose

PS: men are not nearly as objectified as woman in the media, they are, but outside of the fashion magazines (which I'm sure most men are oblivious to), men are "meant to be" muscular and Kathy, powerful sport guys instead of skinny, so they don't have as much of a problem as woman

 

[Ninahaza]

Every single woman is beautiful; the only difference is some get told, some don't.

I love this so much DM, so much.

But its also a bit sad when you really think about the meaning behind those words

EDIT: does it kinda piss any of you guys off as well when you tell a girl exactly how beautiful she is and then she replies something along the lines "No i'm not", and then goes on to list the reasons why she is not? seriously girl, is it so hard for you to accept that i find you so damn beautiful
EDIT #2: ha, i bet i can tie the above back to the fashion industry. i guess they have the final say on what is truly beautiful

 

[vonFiedler]

I don't see where I made that assumption.

Right here

Obviously 18.5 isn't fat as in health problem fat, but it is fat enough to make these jealous beasts satisfied with their anti-skinny hatred.

Megan Fox is 18.6 Megan Fox. I don't even like Megan Fox, but if you think she is "fat enough" you are insane.

And I don't think it's about safety regulation considering that none of the posters complaining about skinny models are saying "I'm worried about the models' safety."

That's what the OP is about. That's what the video is about. That is what the law passed in Israel is about.

Everyone is more concerned about the affect the models have on people's fragile self-esteem. So forgive me if I don't buy your argument here because it could be applied to literally anything. Maybe we should ban smart people from writing books because it would make all the aspiring authors feel stupid and they might hurt themselves staying up late and taking adderall trying to be like them.

So why do we not see hoardes of men dying in the gym trying to get a 6-pack like all the models in the fashion industry?

And what is your body type? Cause I go to the gym, and getting in shape is fucking hard. And even with dedication different people get in shape at different speeds. If I just wanted to be super thin starvation is faster and easier (and that IS tempting) but at least I know that if I don't do it right I won't end up looking as good as I could. But with women they can be as skinny as possible and that is trendy, for all the people wising up to the atrocious health problems in modeling the model industry still dictates what looks good to the majority and thinking otherwise is naive.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

Megan Fox is 18.6 Megan Fox. I don't even like Megan Fox, but if you think she is "fat enough" you are insane.

I never said anything like "18.5 bmi is fat". You are not understanding the context of my comments and you're putting words in my mouth. I am comparing 18.5 to the "twiggy" models that are being discussed, not comparing 18.5 to what the average person looks like. Compared to the stereotypical anorexia case, 18.5 would be noticeably fatter. "Fatter" is a comparison in this context, not an insult. I am fully aware of the fact that 18.5 BMI is below average.

And even with dedication different people get in shape at different speeds. If I just wanted to be super thin starvation is faster and easier (and that IS tempting) but at least I know that if I don't do it right I won't end up looking as good as I could.

That's exactly my point. You are completely aware of the fact that you shouldn't hurt yourself because everyone's body is different. I don't see you in this thread saying "pictures of in-shape men have driven me to starve myself to death" and looking for sympathy. So why do women have this issue, almost exclusively? I am genuinely curious. And I'm not looking for the cop-out answer "it's society's fault!!" because there's obviously something else going on

 

[Stratos]

That's exactly my point. You are completely aware of the fact that you shouldn't hurt yourself because everyone's body is different. I don't see you in this thread saying "pictures of in-shape men have driven me to starve myself to death" and looking for sympathy. So why do women have this issue, almost exclusively? I am genuinely curious.

because we live in a patriarchal society, in which it's seen as wrong for women to have any initiative in a relationship. While i'm not saying that men have no pressure to look good, they at least have the societal ability to find themselves a mate. With women nowadays (and most all-a-days of history) they have to try and look pretty enough for men to want to ask them out. They can't do any asking out. I assume, as a man, that oftentimes women who have been single for a long time suspect it's because they're not pretty enough, whereas a man would usually know why he's single, as it's his job to initiate relationships (and there can be a whole host of reasons for both genders). So men, thanks to this patriarchal bullshit, are often more secure in their relationship status than women and feel less of a need to look attractive. Did this make any sense?

 

[vonFiedler]

You routinely miss the point that you don't get a six pack by starving yourself. Even women don't. You don't get muscular through starvation. Male models are cut but they have muscle. Female models are forced to get thinner and thinner.

I can't starve myself to become the picture of masculine glory, the science just isn't there. I can't starve myself to get rid of my acne either but if I could I'd definitely consider it. And even then, I'm autistic, I'm supposed to be the odd one who doesn't respond much to ads or peer pressure. But most people do.

It's not like we are talking about violent video games or anything else where there is a separation of fantasy and reality, the fashion industry is in the business of being the authority on what is hot in real life.

 

[Trax]

Easy for you to say. You're a man.

I don't object to men who are influenced by stupid shit dying either, and there's plenty of that.

Also, guys like Zyzz die from unhealthy body image (and assosciated poor decisions); again it's on the 'do not care' list.