Lethal fashion trend of skinny models-- Should it change?

[jrrrrrrr]

You routinely miss the point that you don't get a six pack by starving yourself. Even women don't. You don't get muscular through starvation. Male models are cut but they have muscle. Female models are forced to get thinner and thinner.

I missed the point of your post because you completely missed everything I said in mine. Attaining the stereotypical fashion-model beauty for males is probably more difficult because it requires actual work rather than not-eating. Yet you don't see an epidemic of males dying at the gym to attain the "male standard of beauty" set by fashion advertisements. You don't see people demanding that men whose biceps are a certain size be banned from advertisements. You don't see advertisers going out of their way to promote "fatter" male models as an alternative to muscular ones to be edgy like Dove soaps.

The fact that being skinny is being different than being muscular has nothing to do with my posts, I don't know why you keep posting about it. It's still an idealist standard of beauty, yet for some reason only women are stressed out when they don't achieve it. And for some reason it's only an issue when women are compared to a standard of beauty but not when men are. What the standard is irl is irrelevant. I just want to know why this happens with girls but not boys when the pressures and stigmas are definitely similar.

 

[Stratos]

@j7r, in my post i attempt to explain this, probably terribly? Either way it's because men are allowed by our society the freedom to be autonomous and take initiative in relationships whereas women are supposed to sit around looking pretty for some man to sweep off her feet. This is manifested in multiple places, such as women sluts being frowned upon while man sluts are congratulated, and also in the fact that women feel very high stress levels to achieve stupid standards of beauty while men are less pressured to do so

 

[Every1XplodeNOW]

After actually watching the video and thinking about it some more, I actually agree with what Israel is doing. For one, someone in the industry actually put this law, guideline, or whatever together, so it's not some third party doing this, it's someone who works in fashion. Second, I'm not entirely sure what Israel's health and safety code is, but this probably falls under that and it trumps all. For instance, in the United States, if someone is working in a factory and they are too overweight to operate machinery, the company can claim that the person is a hazard to him/herself and to other workers. They can force the person to lose the weight or even fire them. And to my knowledge, it's 100% legal as long as they can prove it be a hazard. This is similar, the models are becoming a hazard to themselves.

This has nothing to do with anti-skinny or wanting to make people fat, I truly think this is for the well being of the model. Here let me raise this question, if they can tell their models they have to weigh less than X amount, than why can't they say they have to weigh more than X amount?

 

[vonFiedler]

So

Two different goals (building muscle and losing weight)
Two different methods of attainment
Said methods having different difficulties
And risks
Then what Pwnemon says to a degree

And that's all irrelevant to you. But that's the answer.

And for the record, I DO see hoards of men at the gym. But even then I'd say regardless of gender not enough people in America care at all. But the women that do care have a goal that puts them at risk for health problems.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

@j7r, in my post i attempt to explain this, probably terribly? Either way it's because men are allowed by our society the freedom to be autonomous and take initiative in relationships whereas women are supposed to sit around looking pretty for some man to sweep off her feet.

I don't buy that argument. It's never society's fault. Are you saying that if a girl asked you out, you would say no? Girls know that too.

and also in the fact that women feel very high stress levels to achieve stupid standards of beauty while men are less pressured to do so

That's the question I'm asking, thank you for posing it more clearly. WHY do they feel these stress levels when it's quite obvious from the posts in this thread that hardly any men care if a girl looks like a twig? It makes me think that this pressure actually comes from girls and not boys, since boys don't care yet girls obsess over it. But I can't seem to find anything on this topic so I am asking other people about their experiences. But all I've gotten is "it's society's fault!" and no personal explanations.

Two different goals (building muscle and losing weight) Two different methods of attainment Said methods having different difficultiesAnd risks Then what Pwnemon says to a degree And that's all irrelevant to you. But that's the answer. Deal with it.

I will say this one last time. The actual standard of beauty between genders is completely irrelevant to what I am asking.

And for the record, I DO see hoards of men at the gym.

Are you purposely ignoring the most important words in my posts? I said you don't see them DYING at the gym trying to achieve a standard of beauty. You don't see an epidemic of steroid use to achieve that muscular physique. You don't see political grandstanding saying that male models should be toned down to be more realistic. But you do see girls putting themselves at risk of death by starving themselves rather than taking more healthy options, and you do see campaigns aimed at making skinny girls feel ugly and unhealthy. What I want to know is why the pressure of models merely existing makes girls want to be the skinniest, yet guys don't give a shit if a male model's picture is plastered everywhere.

 

[Stratos]

Von, to be fair you're comparing extreme, crazed eating disorders to a moderate desire to be healthy in the gym. As j7r is trying to say, anything extreme is bad, and moderate diet and moderate exercise are both good while over-exercising and under-eating are both deadly. It's not fair to compare two levels of two things and call one healthier.

EDIT: so, as i feared, i am terrible with words. hold on a sec while i try to gather my thoughts more clearly - and let it be known, it CAN be society's fault

 

[vonFiedler]

Von, to be fair you're comparing extreme, crazed eating disorders to a moderate desire to be healthy in the gym. As j7r is trying to say, anything extreme is bad, and moderate diet and moderate exercise are both good while over-exercising and under-eating are both deadly. It's not fair to compare two levels of two things and call one healthier.

That's just it, j7r is comparing two levels of two things. Male fashion models are dedicated but the end result is HEALTHY. If you want to talk about the same level then the fashion industry is perfectly comparable to the wrestling Chou talks about. The only difference is that fashion dictates what is good looking, meaning normal people are encouraged to follow the fashion industry in order to attract more/better mates. This is an outstandingly natural thing to do and thinking it doesn't impact people is again naive.

You don't see an epidemic of steroid use to achieve that muscular physique.

Not what steroids are for.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

That's just it, j7r is comparing two levels of two things. Male fashion models are dedicated but the end result is HEALTHY.

Ok, now I understand why we have a split. You are under the assumption that being skinny is unhealthy. This is false. There is nothing inherently unhealthy about being skinny, yet you assume that every model is a posterchild for eating disorders.

 

[vonFiedler]

Ok, now I understand why we have a split. You are under the assumption that being skinny is unhealthy. This is false. There is nothing inherently unhealthy about being skinny.

But there is something inherently risky about trying to be as skinny as possible. Someone brought up the fantastic point that 18.5 is by itself subjectively fairly skinny, but many women try to be far below that and still think they are too fat. This puts them at risk for real health problems. This is a medical fact. You can ask a doctor about it.

 

[jrrrrrrr]

This puts them at risk for real health problems. This is a medical fact. You can ask a doctor about it.

Being fat also puts you at risk of health problems, yet you don't see Israel putting a maximum BMI requirement on models. This is why I think the issue is not the safety of the models but rather demonizing skinny women.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Wrestling is a completely different ballgame. The things they do to their bodies are fucked up. I've seen my friends literally eat ice for dinner because they had to keep weight. They'll run with trash bags on to dehydrate themselves, then stuff their face at night between the weigh-in and the match. Kudos to your coaches for not letting you hurt yourselves like that. But again, notice how that is voluntary and in a sport where injury is a real possibility even if you do everything right.

Not voluntary. Every highschool wrestler in the state of Hawaii has to take the fat % test and not go to a weight class below their minimum weights. It pretty much cuts out those stupid practices (at least the trash bags) state wide.

 

[vonFiedler]

Being fat also puts you at risk of health problems, yet you don't see Israel putting a maximum BMI requirement on models. This is why I think the issue is not the safety of the models but rather demonizing skinny women.

Man, really, REALLY? No one is saying that being fat is healthy! What is with you and fatness today? Look, I almost exclusively date skinny women, it's just more sexually compatible for me (and every woman is a gem and personality is important etc. but sexually compatibility is something taken for granted so bite me), but this demonization theory is way out of left field. I see some skinny women in this thread who aren't happy about being called unhealthy but outside of the regular a4m hecklers you are blowing this way out of proportion.

 

[DM]

Wow, vonFiedler. You really need to stop putting words in his mouth.

I'm confused, are you saying that men aren't portrayed in a certain way in the fashion industry? That men don't face the same images put in front of them and the same arbitrary standards of beauty? Like, if I went through any fashion magazine for pictures of men, what percentage do you think would be skinny with a 6-pack and the most chiseled face imaginable? My guess is 100%

Why are men not afflicted with these mental problems on a wide scale that force them to stop eating? Nobody has ever asked me to be concerned with disorders caused by male models. This entire "problem" with image in the fashion industry comes from female jealousy. It's obviously not a trait exclusive to girls, but it would be pretty hard to convince me that it's not the motivating factor behind this ban.

I think that, although you were trying to point out a perceived flaw in my logic, you actually proved my point and agree with me completely. Yes, men are shown in an inaccurate light in advertisements, but the men in those ads have bodies that would be healthy to maintain. There's a big difference between this and this (the latter of which you RARELY if ever see), just as there's a big difference between this and this (in this case, rarely seeing the former). Just as in every other arena of society, there are different standards for men and women.

So why do we not see hoardes of men dying in the gym trying to get a 6-pack like all the models in the fashion industry?

Because you must not be going to the same gyms that I have. I used to go to a gym in Rochester every day of the week, and I'd see the same guy with a beer gut on the crunch machine throwing out rep after rep of huge weight, never losing a single notch off the belt. Guys (and well, girls too, obviously) are stupid, they don't realize that 90% of abs is nutrition, 10% is exercise.

 

[Feathers]

alright time for my post. i feel like this topic is a little important to me since i've had the pleasure of witnessing friends of mine go completely insane about how they look and weigh.

every person has their own healthy weight but some people, both men and women, do not understand that there is no magical number. most girls concerned with weight, no matter what body type, believe 100 is that number and should be their goal weight. for some people 100 pounds can be okay, but for some it's a scary thing to picture. my BMI is 20.8. i am under 5 feet tall. depending on your build, 18 is fine. 20 is fine. 25 can be fine. if a woman is comfortable with how she feels, any number can be okay as long as it doesn't stray into the disorders.

but why do women not realize that most men don't care what they look like? i recently was treated to the poetry collection known as S*PeRM**K*T (supermarkte) by harriette mullen in my literature class. the collection is essentially about advertising and stereotypes, and accompanying that collection was a documentary about women in advertising (the name escapes me, but it was very interesting and i could probably find it if anyone wants it). a woman may not ever be told she is out of shape or fat or that she looks ugly, but advertising says otherwise.

something like every 3rd commercial nowadays is about weight loss that primarily focuses on women. you might never see a picture of a model in your life but we are shown that weight loss will always make you feel better. it's always a quick fix too, because the faster the better. commercials about makeup, hair products, everything to do with physical appearance, etc. i don't think men have much to worry about besides axe and deoderant.

advertisement reaches further than weight and appearance of course. why do essentially all commercials about vacuums and washer detergents star women? we're still classified as domestic housewives and we should look good while doing it. maybe men don't see women that way, but a lot of women aspire to be that perfect example with the perfect weight. i believe it was hollister or something of the sort, that photoshops kneecaps out of their model's legs. we can't even have knees anymore, they're too ugly.

banning modeling at certain weights will not stop women from feeling uncomfortable about how they look unfortunately. i think at this point it is too worked into tweens and teen's brains that skinny is the only beautiful. the other day i was in subway and some girls, maybe 11-14, were arguing about how much fat/calories would be in the sandwiches they wanted. in the end they left.

i really hate that media is allowed to use photoshopped images of models in their articles/magazines etc. some women in those magazines are pieced together using multiple images, or they are made into impossible proportions. you can tell a girl it's fake, but sometimes that isn't enough. the image is still there and media promotes it as beautiful.

i don't think the image of the body is really affected by real people doing anything, it's the womenfolk who can't be comfortable with themselves because those fake images exist and they want to find a way to be like that. runway models get skinnier and skinnier because they are mannequins. fashion is not created to fit around the model, the model must fit the fashion, and unfortunately the fashion right now is unhealthy. will it change? i wish, but honestly it's everywhere and you can't avoid it.

a couple of my friends are sickeningly thin because 100 is their magic number. they do not think they look good even if someone tells them they do. it is an entirely personal choice influenced by the world as it is today, whether the victim is obese or anorexic.

i feel like even though guys can all agree that each woman can be beautiful in her own way, that still we are expected to do certain things or look a certain way. it doesn't have to be true but for some people it is.

as for me, i don't even know how to put fucking foundation on or even what it does and i would probably choose mcdonald's over some apples or something. i don't use hair products beyond shampooing a few times a week and a spray that de-frizzes my terrible hair in the heat. nobody has ever commented on my lack of makeup and people are always asking me if i'm wearing lip gloss or something. some ladies look excellent with some accents but i find people like that are often comfortable with their natural selves as well, weight and all. some think that they can't go out in public until they have their face on.

overall i think that everything adds up and contributes to today's problem with female weight disorders. it's just another thing on the list we're supposed to worry about, along with general stereotypes like "girls love shoes" and other garbage.

i was once in my lounge at school, and i was talking about games with a dude. this other girl was like "oh, so you're a dork? do you do like normal people stuff?" serious question too. other girls also gawk when i tell them i only own three pairs of shoes and one of those is flip-flops. weight is kind of the same thing, it's a little thing you can change while ignoring that it's actually a big problem.

probably went off on a million tangents but there is just so much to talk about and consider when discussing why girls think they need to look like models.

(and as a disclaimer, this is all my personal opinion. everyone sees it differently.)

 

[ChildDaemon]

And I'm not looking for the cop-out answer "it's society's fault!!" because there's obviously something else going on

I have to say I'm really kind of weirded out/disturbed by your implication that society contributes absolutely nothing to the way we think (in a later post you actually say "It's never society's fault"). I can believe that yes, it may be a cop out to entirely blame everything on society (after all, there are girls not impacted by body image issues), but completely dismissing it as having any influence whatsoever boggles my mind. We don't live in a vacuum.

Notice that, for example, there are different standards of beauty in different time periods/locations. It used to be that plump was attractive as a sign of wealth (indicating people were able to afford enough good food to actually have some meat on their bones). I don't believe eating disorders where people starved themselves to be skinny were nearly as prevalent in those times. If not due to a societal norm, what caused the change?

Some different beauty ideals: http://www.tripbase.com/blog/8-ideals-of-beauty-from-around-the-world/

Note that the above do not really seem to cross cultures: foot binding is not universal. Neither is "fat farming" or any of the other traditions mentioned therein.

Similarly (going slightly off the topic of beauty, but still sticking to the topic of women's behavior being influenced by science), what about the issue of women in STEM fields (or rather, the lack thereof). I suppose you could argue somehow that inherently girls are worse at math/science (though if you go that route I might be tempted to bite your head off). But what about the studies where they gave kids standardized tests and had them fill out ethnic/gender info either before or after the actual test? They found that if reminded of their gender beforehand, girls would do worse on the math portion of the exam. Is this entirely unrelated to society? What about the fact that in other, more matriarchical parts of the world, this gap between men and women in STEM fields is basically non-existant? (I will try to find articles on the actual studies so I can back this up on more than just my say so)

Here are some different papers/articles on the gender gap in STEM fields:
http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/08/women-math-science-culture/
http://healthland.time.com/2011/08/30/the-math-gender-gap-nurture-can-trump-nature/
http://www.wcfia.harvard.edu/sites/default/files/empirical%20analysis.pdf

To summarize, yes it is a cop-out to blame society for everything people do. But it's just as wrong to completely ignore the impact society has on our behavior as well.

As for why these societal norms impact girls more than boys... different facets of society's beliefs affect different populations in different ways. Can you tell me why it is that people pitch so much more of a fit if a boy wants to play with dolls or wear skirts than if a girl wants to wear pants and play with "boy toys"? That just happens to be the way the emphasis is put on things.

 

[Cshadow]

I think a lot of the issues stem from the media's portrayal of men and women. While men and women both suffer problems on what is "ideal" or "acceptable", men don't nearly get as shafted as woman do. From cartoons to video games to action movies men are drawn/modeled/acted with a variety of interesting and unique body types (ranging from short/fat/bald to the blocky, enormous, muscular manly man and even the shy, timid, nerdy looking dude) while woman are often only portrayed one way: tall, thin, skinny - something along those lines.

 

[ssbbm]

actually i realized that what israel is basically doing is telling people with a <18.5 BMI that they're not beautiful....

furthermore, saying that it is the duty of the fashion industry to promote healthy eating habits and weight is pretty stupid; it's not their responsibilty, and they should be allowed to choose what model they want..

 

[jrrrrrrr]

I think that, although you were trying to point out a perceived flaw in my logic, you actually proved my point and agree with me completely.

I wasn't trying to point out flaws in logic as if I was arguing, I'm legitimately asking a question lol. Some guys do go to the gym, yes, but why is it not a widespread thing where every man is pressured to go? I guess what I'm trying to ask is why men don't feel the pressures that women do to look like fashion models, whether it's healthy or not. Is body image really that much more important to girls than it is to boys? I've just never heard people say that men feel obligated to look like the pictures they see, yet women obsess over this stuff to the point where they need to ban skinny models for "influencing" fragile girls to starve themselves with their mere existence. But I've never heard male models praised/criticized for influencing men to go work out.

Do you see the distinction I'm trying to make? Men don't care if they look like male fashion models, yet women are driven to starve themselves if they don't look like female fashion models. This influence is not a factor for men, so why is it a big deal for women?

I hope that makes my question clearer...

And the reason why I'm not accepting "it's society's fault!" as an answer is because this is a personal problem. Society's impact, if any, is not measurable. At some point this comes down to a personal decision where one girl decides to hurt herself despite all common sense and natural instinct telling her not to. Society is not at fault for something you do to yourself, you are. I want to know what goes through that mind because it's obviously more complex than looking at a picture and immediately inducing vomiting.

 

[DM]

I wasn't trying to point out flaws in logic as if I was arguing, I'm legitimately asking a question lol. Some guys do go to the gym, yes, but why is it not a widespread thing where every man is pressured to go? I guess what I'm trying to ask is why men don't feel the pressures that women do to look like fashion models, whether it's healthy or not. Is body image really that much more important to girls than it is to boys? I've just never heard people say that men feel obligated to look like the pictures they see, yet women obsess over this stuff to the point where they need to ban skinny models for "influencing" fragile girls to starve themselves with their mere existence. But I've never heard male models praised/criticized for influencing men to go work out.

Do you see the distinction I'm trying to make? Men don't care if they look like male fashion models, yet women are driven to starve themselves if they don't look like female fashion models. This influence is not a factor for men, so why is it a big deal for women?

I hope that makes my question clearer...

And the reason why I'm not accepting "it's society's fault!" as an answer is because this is a personal problem. Society's impact, if any, is not measurable. At some point this comes down to a personal decision where one girl decides to hurt herself despite all common sense and natural instinct telling her not to. Society is not at fault for something you do to yourself, you are. I want to know what goes through that mind because it's obviously more complex than looking at a picture and immediately inducing vomiting.

I think you underestimate society's influence.

Those are just two examples, off the top of my head, of media that shows overweight men with beautiful wives. If I sat here longer I could think of more, but I can't be arsed. There are plenty of guys who work hard to get the bodies they want, but at the same time, the external pressures are much less than those on women to do the same. That's all it boils down to: most of the world is populated by male-driven, misogynistic cultures that subconsciously, if not automatically, relegate females to lesser status.

 

[No Luck Involved]

@jrrr: Maybe because men are lazy shits and despite yearning to look like the magazine models they realise they can't be arsed to go to the gym. Women on the other hand just have to not eat which takes far less effort than a rigorous gym regime for 6 months. Imagine if the image of an attractive male model is just skin and bones, wouldn't you want to start eating a bit less hoping one day you may look like that gold standard of beauty? Such a subconscious urge could quickly spiral out of control.

 

[WaterBomb]

There's really just an unhealthy focus on how women look in general, not just in weight. Look at popular music, where males can look however they want but women must fit a perfect mold, despite the fact that music is an auditory thing and should theoretically not be affected by looks in the slightest...

 

[Umbreon Dan]

the problem with this behaviour isn't the media or the models -- it's the parents who are not doing enough to educate their children about the risks of that look. if children were less exposed to that sort of thing, or they were taught that it's not the only attractive look and to treat it with a sort of cynicism, then society would not have anywhere near the problem it does.

obviously the other issue here is the division between men and women in the first place and when we can get over that like 90% of societies' problems will be instantly solved

re: "healthy is beautiful" -- obviously false, as outlined by nj and friends earlier in this thread. the reality is, for any body type, there are millions of people out there who will love you if you give them the chance.

modeling, essentially, is art. models and photographers are trying to appeal to the widest audience they can, so as to make the most money. thus, the trends that the greatest number of people find beautiful are naturally going to be seen the most. but, there is a serious market for realism as well, and i don't think people as a whole have realized that. i used to think it would be very helpful if cable tv had a few designated "average-looking people" stations, but that's pretty much youtube, so maybe the next generation isn't going to be as brainwashed as this one.

where was i going with this post? oh well... you know, i'm really into the heroin-addict look myself so what do i know? :wq

 

[Alan]

I swear, OP, you have such a talent for sensationalising any topic, you should go into journalism.

I'm against the idea of banning models for being too thin. They know the risks they run when they choose to enter that career field. If you're an adult, you can make adult decisions. Don't want to have to weigh 95 lbs for the rest of your life? Learn math or something and change careers. It's a simple solution. If people are looking for 95 lb girls to model and people are willing to shrink themselves down to the rigorous standards of the modeling industry, so be it. It's their choice. I don't get why we have to protect people with stupid laws. What happened to natural selection?

I like drawing a parallel with professional football (the American kind), where we protect them from getting hit "too hard". You made the decision to enter the NFL draft and put on a uniform every weekend and play the game, you are getting paid millions of dollars, if you aren't willing to get hit hard every once in a while for the ludicrous amounts of compensation you get for being naturally talented, so be it, don't play football.

 

[Heroes Fall]

Banning models under a certain weight, if it's considered life-threatening, I'm fine with it. It has the potential to save lives, and likely will, for what cost?

 

[Chou Toshio]

the problem with this behaviour isn't the media or the models -- it's the parents who are not doing enough to educate their children about the risks of that look. if children were less exposed to that sort of thing, or they were taught that it's not the only attractive look and to treat it with a sort of cynicism, then society would not have anywhere near the problem it does.

Are you fucking shitting me? Have you ever been involved with a person with an eating disorder before? I can't believe how ignorant and insensitive this post is!

Perhaps it is because I have had close relatives (cousins who are like siblings to me) who went through the ordeals of eating disorders that the issue is extremely personal to me--

My aunties and uncles who raised my cousins were fantastic and loving parents, doing their best to raise their daughters with the best of care, and to be strong, confident women. They did everything that could be expected of parents-- but that doesn't stop friends, media, magazines, the INTERNET, friends from shaping a person's perception of the world; I mean, when you're a 14 year old girl, how much are you going to listen to your Mom, and how much are you going to listen to peer pressure?

I'll tell you the type of girl who easily develops an eating disorder-- it's not so straight forwards as wanting to "be pretty." For many girls, it's all about control. Girls (more often than boys) so often can develop an obsession with or need for stability, or perfection-- simply having absolute control over their lives, or making sure they're 100% safe. This may not be obvious to the person herself, but things like double/triple analyzing all the people in the room (over sensitivity), being compulsive student, club activities, student body government, etc. etc. Often when these super organized types who have had control all through elementary school (and maybe middle school too) get thrown into the tougher reality of highschool and eventually college-- they face real challenge for the first time, they make mistakes, things get fucked up; socially, academically, athletically, something-- and at that point media or no, falling into an eating disorder is one way they end up coping, because "what goes into my body" is something they CAN control.


What is a bigger factor is: Life is too easy.

Yeah you got it-- eating disorders are one of the casualties of living in a 1st world country, where you grow up "too easy" with money, food, education, etc. etc. etc. guaranteed. When you're struggling just to make it, and toughing it out in the "real world" from the time you're a kid (grow up on the farm, whatever), you know things always get screwed up, you're used to not getting your way (or being able to control what's on the table), and that becomes the norm-- you're too caught up with "survival" to worry about the types of anxiety that lead to eating disorders. That is not to say that poor people can't become anorexic, but generally speaking, eating disorders are a first world problem...

...and not the type we joke about in a forum threads, like a REAL and DANGEROUS first world problem.

What is sure, that while parents play a big role in every aspect of their child's lives, no parent can really raise a kid "to prevent eating disorders"... that's really outside their hands, and can develop from any number of situations or stimulus...