Let's ban Hidden Power

Footnote said:
My argument is less muddled if you know that I don't breed for max stats. I breed for good stats, and IVs are important to me, but I don't want to spend a week on each Pokémon I raise.

But just so you know, I respect you for being willing to devote that kind of time. I'm not trying to say that it was time wasted.
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And I respect you for your courteous and respectful tone throughout this thread so far. With topics like this it can turn into a crapfest real fast if the OP is stubborn and closeminded (while also lacking a certain degree of eloquence), especially if they're "new" like you are.

That said, I think the argument is still muddled because where are we supposed to draw the line? What's "good" and what's "great?" Say you're willing to breed for two hours, tops, on a given pokemon, and that will only get you a "Quite Impressive!" as far as the Legendary Breeder is concerned. And I'm willing to spend four hours to get a "Wonderfully Outstanding!" poke. You do realize that it literally does not take that much more time to get a Hidden Power that's the type you want and 55 and above, don't you? Peterko has posted about it in the "What to do in Emerald thread", and it is definitely within the realm of possibility when you know what IVs your parents have and are likely passing, so I suggest you check it out.

So then it becomes a question of "55" being really that much of a threat, or is it 60, or 65 and higher? Still way too gray an area to come to anything conclusive about.

My main point, though, is one I have only alluded to so far. What pokemon besides electrics even need Hidden Power now? Gyarados ironically becomes one of the best pokemon in the game in DP, the very generation it loses the Hidden Power it coveted so much. Skarmory loses his too but gains Drill Peck with WW. Legendaries like Raikou, Zapdos and Azelf are among the few pokemon that "need" Hidden Power, Azelf less so since it would only like HP Fighting, which doesn't fit on the standard Scheme/Psychic/Flamethrower/Grass Rope set.

The issue here then, in my mind, is with Electrics again...but are we really that afraid of Raikou and Zapdos still? I just can't help thinking that most of the main threats that I listed in my RMT announcement neither have nor need Hidden Power, with the "off the top of my head exceptions" being the aforementioned Electrics, two others in Jolteon and Electivire, and Gengar. Vire would like HP Grass for Swampert and Gengar hates having lost a special Ice Punch, but Vire's standard set is TB/EQ/CC/Ice Punch for SE damage on 13 of 17 types anyway, and Gengar is but one threatening pokemon besides Raikou and Zapdos that really actually hurts from not having HP. But do we really only find Gengar threatening because of it "maybe" having HP Ice? That's my point...it has better things to do now, and really only Zapdos and Raikou "need" HP, so we need to keep that in mind.
 
If you don't breed for Hidden Power or better stats, then you're at a disadvantage. Those with the patience to do so are rewarded by getting better Pokemon.

When I get Diamond, I won't be in a huge hurry to get a team together. More than likely I'll breed and train 10-15 Pokemon before constructing my first team. It would seem a waste of my team planning to use what I see as unacceptably low IV Pokemon after spending so time much coming up with such precise EV spreads. I imagine some others feel this way in regards to planned team members that rely on Hidden Power.
 
I was always amazed people didn't bitch more about HP, on legendarys especially. Resetting for a HP ice Raikou? lol. I think ban it on Competitor as its just a lazy mans move these days. But on WiFi I don't mind it. If some dude breeds pokes for yonks to get good HP, well congrats too him. Live by the sword die by the sword...
 
Absofuckinglutely not. I don't mean to sound rude, because this is a really touchy subject for me, but I could care less about your little crusade for "fairness" to the underpowered Pokemon. Nintendo never intended for all Pokemon to be equal; that's the job of mod servers. And seriously, people need to shut up about legendaries. Registeel and Entei are legendaries. A lot of standards, and not just those with 600 total base stats, are better than them. Zapdos and Raikou are legendaries. Hi, Blissey. Moltres is a legendary. Milotic beats it up eight days in a seven day week. Besides ubers, which take very little skill to use and are nearly uncounterable in standards except for very specific things, and gay shit like evasion that turn the game completely on luck, most people try to get things banned because they're too lazy to find a counter for them. Oh, so your favorite little Golem can't stop Zapdos? Then use something else like Blissey or Steelix for goodness sakes. Face the facts: Pokemon with Hidden Power still have counters, and plenty of them, if I may add. It doesn't matter if your favorite Ground type or something that you think is "supposed" to counter Electrics can't anymore; that is not a reason to ban something perfectly counterable within the limits of diversity, and besides, your opinion of what a Pokemon is "supposed" to do doesn't make it true. Besides, Hidden Power is probably the least of your worries in D/P. I mean, how the HELL can people go around worrying about Hidden Power when things like friggin Togekiss and Azelf, who don't usually have Hidden Power, are running amok? In conclusion, I will never condone this measure or any measure that simply bans unbroken things that people are too lazy to counter.
 
Well said, Jumpman16. Before I respond to the bulk of your post, let me say that I previously drew the line at using Hidden Power. If people want to breed for max (or close to max) stats, I have absolutely no problem with that whatsoever. More power to them (and me, if I happen to get max stats through luck).

I was unaware that it didn't take that much longer to breed a Pokémon with great stats and the appropriate Hidden Power. If this is true (and I have no reason to doubt you), then one of my arguments is at least mostly nullified. If I have to spend longer than usual on only 4 or so of the Pokémon I train, that would be acceptable. So, I apologize for posting this thread without being fully informed.

Now, the question that remains is: does Hidden Power make Electivire, Jolteon, and other Electric types overpowered? On the one hand, Electric types are supposed to be weak to Ground. That's their only weakness. But, on the other, many other types have attacks that are super-effective against their weaknesses. This may always be a matter of opinion.

Thank you very much for the detailed analysis. I still probably won't use Hidden Power myself, but I've gained a greater understanding of those who do. I guess we'll have to wait for the release of DP to know for sure how many Pokémon still use it, but you've helped assuage my fears. So, thanks again.

Great Sage, sorry I hit a nerve here. You have many good points, and all the people responding to the thread have helped me understand the other side of this argument. I guess my crusade against overpowered Pokémon (although I never thought of it that way) isn't because I hate legendaries, but because I like variety. In my mind, if we were to say, have a bracket without legendaries and 600 BST Pokémon, then many more Pokémon could be used competitively. More Pokémon would be included than excluded. Again, this is just a guess. Maybe if we tried it, it'd work out completely differently. But, I think it'd be cool to try.
 
Hidden Power doesn't make Electric types overpowered, just more usable. I plan to breed and train an Electivire, but won't be looking for HP Grass as I'd rather have the superior coverage his "standard" set offers.

Apart from in a few cases, Hidden Power will likely be used as a surprise attack or because of incredible paranoia about Garchomp and Rhyperior.
 
I've actually got some very strong opinions on the matter. Hidden Power was one of the major reasons I left the online Pokemon community around six years ago. However, I completely disagree with the following statement:

So please, at least on Wi-Fi, if not Competitor, consider choosing creativity over tedium. Is Hidden Power really so important anymore?
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If anything, I believe completely the opposite. HP should never have been allowed to run as unchecked on NetBattle as it has, but it is significantly limited in game in order to keep its power in check. I walked away simply because the differences between NB and the real games were so great that they began to corrupt the general knowledge base of the real games. In the interconnected matrix of information that is the metagame, far too much knowledge is based on the ability to essentially give any Pokemon in the game a move that will patch up any hole they may have been designed to deal with. I'm honestly not sure if there's anyone who really knows how the game Gamefreak designed actually plays out competetively, as its widely based on a similar game programmed by the online community.

And that's why I've decided to stick out my nose again for the launch of D/P. People have complained generation after generation that Gamefreak doesn't care about the metagame, but honestly, this is the first time there's a chance for them to try. Prior to D/P, there hasn't been any way for Gamefreak to see how their theoretic balancing factors work out in the real world outside of reading the general knowledge of the community. Unfortunately, that knowledge has failed to reflect the real Pokemon games. The folks at Gamefreak probably disregard every single guide about Emerald that exists on GameFAQs once they realize we're playing a game in which 75% of the electric types carry a 70 BP Ice Move (25% of them carry Grass instead).

To be fair, I'm very grateful for the interest and spirit NetBattle has helped maintain in the Pokemon community over the years that Nintendo has neglected to acknowledge the difficulties "communication" gaming has in a country as large as the United States. Competitor will continue to serve an important purpose as long as PBR provides a limited set of gametype and player matching options, but I think its wrong to force any standards onto WiFi until there's a better understanding of how the games work in reality as opposed to the purely theoretical knowledge we've gained from NetBattle. There's a lot of terrific information that has been learned over the years, but the concepts of standard movesets and tiers are largely based on theory and best case scenarios, rather than any kind of extensive testing in a real world situation. My one hope is this generation will finally give rise to an extensive knowledge base of competetive battling between cartridges and a good amount of online battle data (hopefully Nintendo's watching PBR closely). Maybe then Gamefreak can focus on making the 5th Gen the most competetive Pokemon experience ever.
 
Footnote, there is something called the UU tier that allows for underpowered Pokemon to be used. Also, no unSTABed Hidden Power was tried for some time in the Smogon Tour a season or two back, and eventually it was decided that it made the metagame too bland and stally. It could be something interesting to try in some D/P tournaments to balance the offensive nature of D/P, but certainly not the standard.
 
Uhmm... you say that's hard to get good HP on Wi-Fi? So, if... let's say, somebody was breeding really hard in emerald, and finaly he got his perfect 70 bp HP, he shouldn't use it? Remember, 70 BP isn't really much, and also, if you don't want to waste time breeding for right IV's/Natures/HP's, don't waste time on Pokemon then. Or go play on competitor. HP is a normal attacking move, it isn't too powerfull, it doesn't have any side effects (Hooray for 100% flinch/freeze rate :D). IMHO if we will ban HP, we also should ban every move not learnable by level-up/HM/TM... I mean, you need to put some work to get a special/egg move :| And who wants to "waste" some time, getting a good poke? Nobody. If you don't want a good HP, you don't want a good poke.
By the way, i just bred a 31 Sp Atk/31 Spd HP Ice with 66 bp modest Magnemite ^^ Yay me :D
 
Great Sage said:
Footnote, there is something called the UU tier that allows for underpowered Pokemon to be used. Also, no unSTABed Hidden Power was tried for some time in the Smogon Tour a season or two back, and eventually it was decided that it made the metagame too bland and stally. It could be something interesting to try in some D/P tournaments to balance the offensive nature of D/P, but certainly not the standard.
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Hmmm... Yeah, I was aware of the UU bracket, but what I want to try is something a little different. I have hope that many UU Pokémon can stand up to many non-legendary OU Pokémon. I propose a new bracket with the stipulations I posted earlier. It doesn't have to replace OU or UU, but I would like to give it a try to see if my hopes are justified. If they are, we could be dealing with the largest bracket yet, which is good in my mind because there'll be more variety.
 
i cannot think of one pokemon outside or infernarape(hp ice) that has hidden power established as one of its key moves in this gen, so why would it be banned.
 
Lunar, I agree. My statement was based on my initial belief that people wouldn't even listen if I suggeted limiting Competitor battles. This stems from my complete inexperience with NetBattle and many responses to this post have proven my assumption wrong. If there were a way to battle in Competitor with a Hidden Power clause, that would be sufficient for my purposes, provided that there are others who would be interested in battling with the rule and provided that competitor accurately reflects the game mechanics in DP (with so many wacky new move and ability combinations, it may take a while). In fact, I would almost prefer it.

You're right about forcing standards onto Wi-Fi. My apologies for the suggestion.
 
I had a problem with Hidden Power in Advance, but not in DP. Why?

Because I felt in Advance, there weren't any real limitations on Hidden Power. Hidden Power basically gave any Pokemon with a decent offense stat to fight against the Pokemon that resist its main moves. I felt it retarded moveset building simply because rather than trying to ACTUALLY make a moveset with Magneton's actual moves, everyone put HP Ice/Grass on it, instead of just acknowledging that Magneton gets walled by grounds and working from there. But then, I enjoy using lower tier pokemon, I like putting myself at a disadvantage.

Now, why is it that I condone the use of HP in DP?

Because it's special-only now. There exists a clear limitation to Hidden Power in that half of the pokemon in the game basically can't use it effectively (and have to settle for the one-use Natural Gift). That's all I ever really asked of Hidden Power: I don't mind that some pokemon (eg Zapdos) become very powerful with it, but rather that it was too loose, too open.

Thanks, Game Freak.
 
I didn't read all but why are you guys taking wi-fi into account? If this suggestion is for wi-fi then thats just lame, however if this is a suggestion for the competitive pokemon meta, aka competitor, where no one have to ''work hard'' to get perfect IVs, its a different story.

I think its unnecessary though but it will teach people to use other things then Hidden Power Electrics and actually use Grass types, or something atleast ^_^. So ehh I'm against but wouldn't mind it.
 
I have a serious problem with the talk that the PBS/bots/Netbattle 'metagame' is somehow different than the link battle game, just because of the perfect DV / hidden power thing. We've already seen people like IMAWario, Uiru, and Peterko breed "Netbattle-quality" pokemon so, really, where is the difference?
 
SDShamshel, I too am pleased that Hidden Power is now limited to Special attacks. For all of you out there familiar with the old single-battle metagame (most of you), will Magnezone still use HP Grass or Ice?

Also, I'm editing my initial post to make it clear that I've changed my position on Wi-Fi battles.
 
My opinion is simply this: we are in absolutely no position to decide whether a Hidden Power ban would be beneficial or even relevant. We have no stable metagame to speak of, and trying to ban a move like Hidden Power at this stage is simply a shot in the dark. I don't really give a damn about any moral implications of Hidden Power; it is a move like any other and, as has been noted, is very viable in WiFi for most Pokemon (probably not so much legendaries).
 
I have an HP Fire 68 on my ingame Exeggutor, but tbh I got very lucky it was my 9th egg.

Also if we ban HP then pretty much nobody will use Electrics :-/
 
Surgo said:
I have a serious problem with the talk that the PBS/bots/Netbattle 'metagame' is somehow different than the link battle game, just because of the perfect DV / hidden power thing. We've already seen people like IMAWario, Uiru, and Peterko breed "Netbattle-quality" pokemon so, really, where is the difference?
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Because the entire concept of "metagame" revolves around the concept of building a team around your expected opponents. The BlackList Tier is composed of Pokemon strong enough for standard, but not competetive simply because their ineffective against the most common Pokemon. So much of the metagame is an experience concept, where common Pokemon are based and prior experience and uncommon counters are ignored because they are easily neutralized.

The issue has never been whether or not "Netbattle-quality" Pokemon can exist, but simply the availability and speed at which they can be created. If, of all the 8,000+ Smogon users, only a small handful (3 listed, I'd be willing to raise that number to 100 or so) have Pokemon commonly seen in Netbattle, then our entire concept of common actually revolves around a small, rare annomoly.

More importantly, the time required to create such Pokemon is an enormous factor. Pokemon that require significant effort may never become a common threat simply because few are willing to invest the time to create it. Especially in an evolving metagame, the chance that a common counter could arise will deter people from hopping on the next great bandwagon if it is significantly troublesome to do so.

Metagames are simply a matter of politics and social theory. The problem is, Pokemon is a game built with an economy in mind, but Netbattle has no currency. While I actually agree with this principle, and have always preferred games in which you don't have to battle the RNG to get what you want, you can't build properly assess an economy based game by watching what players do with unlimited funds. The problem I've had with Hidden Power has always been simple. It's really the one ability that revolves around the games economy and the community has never properly taken its cost into account when determining its usefulness. Its minor changes such as this that seem insignicant, but cascade endlessly through the interconnected ties of the game system and end up significantly altering our overall view of the game.
 
Erm, it's called Borderline, not Blacklist. And Footnote, HP Grass vs. HP Ice on Electrics has always been debated. In ADV, HP Grass tended to be favored because Thunderbolt did a lot of damage to Salamence and co. already, Swampert had a lot of durability, and Flygon wasn't so durable. HP Ice has been favored in D/P, though, because of the Garchomp threat.
 
Jumpman16 said:
Substitute "Hidden Power" for "max stats" and your argument becomes muddled real fast.

And for what it's worth, I just beat the Elite Four's sorry ass with my Base 70 Hidden Power Flying/DD/EQ/Taunt Gyarados three hours ago, and it felt great. I'm still really, really torn as to whether or not I should "settle" for 23/30/31/30/30/30 IVs, though, considering how easy Gyarados eggs are to breed. I feel indebted somewhat to my Gyarados for being the most awesome Emerald pokemon in the fucking world, due to being the pokemon that arguably most needs Hidden Power in its set — since Electrics still actually have STAB to work with — and actually having absolutely fantastic stats with a 172 out of 186 total IVs, but I know I can do better, so that's kind of ironic that'd be breeding inspite of having gotten the best HP already.
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I feel the same about my gyarados with 31/22/30/31/30/26. Thats 170 out of 186. I also got one with perfect HP flying but stats not as good.

Anyways, HP is awesome on wifi but we should wait til dp comes out before we start banning things.
 
Hidden Power is needed on some Pokémon because they lack a decent (or any) STAB attacks, such as Wormadam. Since it learns zero Bug-type attacks, Hidden Power is a good choice for the Grass variety.
 
While I do find it annoying when I switch in my ground type on an electric and get HP Iced to hell, I don't think there is any need for it to be banned. I don't find it ruining the metagame in any significant way.
 
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