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was gonna wait until the morning to post this just to make sure it's more rational but I'm playing vgc tomorrow so here goes...

it's finally time I just make the move and say that I would like to use she/her going forward in the online community. it's been about two years since I first toyed with the concept of gender and since then it weighed on my mind heavy a lot. I both hated myself in my male state and hated myself for even thinking that I could be someone else, and I did a lot of things that were basically just acts of frustration upon my thoughts and feelings. However, since I came out as non-binary right before my 19th birthday (and a while before) I've gotten way more comfortable with those thoughts and understand that my feelings are okay. I think I've finally hit a point where I understand myself and this is the end result.

presenting masc sucks and because I live in the boonies in the real world it will probably be a minute before I can transition so I ask that if you're someone that sees pics of me regularly you just kind of understand my situation and keep it pushing. I don't really have much more to add. Not gonna lie I am nervous as fuck typing this but I wasn't gonna keep it in much longer and the timing is appropriate soooooo

dm me if u wanna talk I guess idk fuck.

e
 
First of all happy pride month y'all hope your day is going well :)

So this is a thing that I've been thinking about a lot but I haven't really talked about it with anyone so sorry if this comes out as a bit confusing, so to put into a bit of context I am male and I've always liked women, big fan of them really cool. So you could say that I am your standard cishet male and thats how everyone (including myself somewhat) considers me, but because of that my parents or anyone around me has never talked about LGBTQ+ related topics and this is where I question myself without having any kind of guidance.

For quite some time at this moment I have wanted to be a girl, but I really dont want to be trans. Personally I am not in an urge to transition as I feel fine enough with my body and continuing my lifestyle as is wouldn't be too bad, but sometimes I really wish that I was born a girl so that I wouldn't have to be going through this, and thats the thing I wish I was born a girl and idk if transitioning would make me feel fulfilled with myself, its a scary process and is it really worth it? That might've been the internalized transphobia speaking so...

I haven't told anyone (especially my parents) cus I haven't figured out myself what I want to be and while my parents aren't really homophobic/transphobic as they are fine with the concept of my sister being bi they still throw some pretty questionable jokes from time to time so there is also that, also I still really like women and ig that I would be a lesbian if I do transition and what are my friends going to think about it?
I found appropiate to post this here as thanks to the anonimity talking abt this kinds of things is always comfortable.
 
zeefable said:
because I live in the boonies in the real world it will probably be a minute before I can transition so I ask that if you're someone that sees pics of me regularly you just kind of understand my situation and keep it pushing
Click to expand...

TotomonGang said:
For quite some time at this moment I have wanted to be a girl, but I really dont want to be trans. Personally I am not in an urge to transition as I feel fine enough with my body and continuing my lifestyle as is wouldn't be too bad, but sometimes I really wish that I was born a girl so that I wouldn't have to be going through this, and thats the thing I wish I was born a girl and idk if transitioning would make me feel fulfilled with myself, its a scary process and is it really worth it?
Click to expand...

Wanted to stop by to say both of you should feel totally free to take your time on transitioning, or even not transition at all. You're both totally valid even though you aren't transitioned and even if you don't. Transitioning is difficult for me too; multiple years after I knew I was trans, reaching the internal state to even be ready to start took me several years. Totomon, remember that internalized transphobia isn't the only reason it can be hard to transition. Seeing yourself in a new light is hard! Determining what exactly that light is can be hard! Decades of inertia are hard to overcome! Zee, uh, you're gamer lol. And now you're gamer girl :blobuwu:
 
TotomonGang said:
First of all happy pride month y'all hope your day is going well :)

So this is a thing that I've been thinking about a lot but I haven't really talked about it with anyone so sorry if this comes out as a bit confusing, so to put into a bit of context I am male and I've always liked women, big fan of them really cool. So you could say that I am your standard cishet male and thats how everyone (including myself somewhat) considers me, but because of that my parents or anyone around me has never talked about LGBTQ+ related topics and this is where I question myself without having any kind of guidance.

For quite some time at this moment I have wanted to be a girl, but I really dont want to be trans. Personally I am not in an urge to transition as I feel fine enough with my body and continuing my lifestyle as is wouldn't be too bad, but sometimes I really wish that I was born a girl so that I wouldn't have to be going through this, and thats the thing I wish I was born a girl and idk if transitioning would make me feel fulfilled with myself, its a scary process and is it really worth it? That might've been the internalized transphobia speaking so...

I haven't told anyone (especially my parents) cus I haven't figured out myself what I want to be and while my parents aren't really homophobic/transphobic as they are fine with the concept of my sister being bi they still throw some pretty questionable jokes from time to time so there is also that, also I still really like women and ig that I would be a lesbian if I do transition and what are my friends going to think about it?
I found appropiate to post this here as thanks to the anonimity talking abt this kinds of things is always comfortable.
Click to expand...
hey, im kind of in a similar spot actually! still very confused about which identity would be best for me but there is something that i've found pretty helpful so wanted to share.

the concept of being "out" to yourself has been a huge help for me. the basic idea is that at any point you can choose to start thinking of yourself as a woman (or nb person), even if you don't do anything on the outside or tell anyone else. there's not really any commitment involved and it's a pretty good way of experimenting with different identities.

don't feel like you have to pick a label and immediately conform to it! i think that even if i am trans, completely adopting that label right now and being out to everyone (even if they are completely accepting) would be a bit more than i'm ready for. this community isn't going anywhere and there's no rush to completely figure everything out.

gender is very difficult and scary!!!!!
 
I currently have a very bad case of mono. At the same time, I'm troubled greatly by an immense sexual aversion im feeling. Like, I think about sex and it makes me near throw up. I try to tell myself that this is practical, as that kind of physical activity right now probably would make me throw up, but im not feeling bad thinking about working out, and the examples that keep popping into my head are very specific and gross.

I've been nothing but sex positive my whole life, but im drowning in overwhelming shame and naseau over it now. And im scared that this isn't temporary, like something traumatized me and I can't rationally figure out what it is.

Sorry if this is not an appropriate post, but I looked online and sex aversion always came back to LGBT
 
vonFiedler said:
I currently have a very bad case of mono. At the same time, I'm troubled greatly by an immense sexual aversion im feeling. Like, I think about sex and it makes me near throw up. I try to tell myself that this is practical, as that kind of physical activity right now probably would make me throw up, but im not feeling bad thinking about working out, and the examples that keep popping into my head are very specific and gross.

I've been nothing but sex positive my whole life, but im drowning in overwhelming shame and naseau over it now. And im scared that this isn't temporary, like something traumatized me and I can't rationally figure out what it is.

Sorry if this is not an appropriate post, but I looked online and sex aversion always came back to LGBT
Click to expand...
I mean I'm no doctor but EBV (mono) is a type of herpes, and sexually transmitted diseases usually affect the brain in some way, so it's probably not too farfetched to assume that mono is causing a chemical or hormonal imbalance leading to sexual aversion. Sexual aversion is often associated with low testosterone in men, so if this strain of mono is affecting you hormonally that may be a cause.

If you feel it is linked to something more traumatic you may have experienced I would consult a therapist or your doctor about it as if it's affecting you hormonally or chemically it may affect you in other ways that may require a medication to rebalance you.
 
i'm sorry for what you're dealing with but this is just not the place to post about this lmao. this isn't anything personal since i'm sure you had the right intentions, and i do genuinely hope you get better. with that said, i think posts like this are symptomatic of a greater issue with this thread.

i don't blame vonFiedler for thinking this was the appropriate place to post this. this thread has slowly and steadily devolved over the last year to be the most hugboxy, "valid at all costs" environment imaginable to a point where critical queer discussions get drowned out or actively discouraged. instead the focus is on including EVERYONE in the smogon LGBT space, even white cis straight people in some cases (not saying that specifically applies here, idk for sure). hell, not that long ago you had a former admin talking about being pegged in this thread, as if it's an appropriate place to discuss that LOL?

the point: the specific brand of gay discourse that takes place in this thread, focused on pronouns, microidentities, "validity," and overly positive behavior is not doing anyone any good. i'm not saying that pronouns and labels aren't important or that being a welcoming and inclusive community is a bad thing, not at all. just that there's much more to queer experience than pronouns and labels, and there does need to be SOME degree of gatekeeping as to what's appropriate and inappropriate to post in queer spaces, even ones online on a pokemon forum.

also to tie all of this together, a lot of these posts i've read the last few months that fit into this sort of thing come from people i know for a fact are white. intersectionality is hardly brought up in this thread, so i urge those of you who are white and queer to consider how your whiteness awards you the ability to think of queerness in these radically online frameworks. most of us nonwhites aren't really able to fixate on labels and validity in the way whites are.

i hope this post isn't too inflammatory for this thread, and i don't intend to disregard or insult the real struggles of the young, white, and/or very online people who post here. i just think all of us LGBT people benefit from a more critical approach to these sorts of things.
 
starry blanket said:
i'm sorry for what you're dealing with but this is just not the place to post about this lmao. this isn't anything personal since i'm sure you had the right intentions, and i do genuinely hope you get better. with that said, i think posts like this are symptomatic of a greater issue with this thread.

i don't blame vonFiedler for thinking this was the appropriate place to post this. this thread has slowly and steadily devolved over the last year to be the most hugboxy, "valid at all costs" environment imaginable to a point where critical queer discussions get drowned out or actively discouraged. instead the focus is on including EVERYONE in the smogon LGBT space, even white cis straight people in some cases (not saying that specifically applies here, idk for sure). hell, not that long ago you had a former admin talking about being pegged in this thread, as if it's an appropriate place to discuss that LOL?

the point: the specific brand of gay discourse that takes place in this thread, focused on pronouns, microidentities, "validity," and overly positive behavior is not doing anyone any good. i'm not saying that pronouns and labels aren't important or that being a welcoming and inclusive community is a bad thing, not at all. just that there's much more to queer experience than pronouns and labels, and there does need to be SOME degree of gatekeeping as to what's appropriate and inappropriate to post in queer spaces, even ones online on a pokemon forum.

also to tie all of this together, a lot of these posts i've read the last few months that fit into this sort of thing come from people i know for a fact are white. intersectionality is hardly brought up in this thread, so i urge those of you who are white and queer to consider how your whiteness awards you the ability to think of queerness in these radically online frameworks. most of us nonwhites aren't really able to fixate on labels and validity in the way whites are.

i hope this post isn't too inflammatory for this thread, and i don't intend to disregard or insult the real struggles of the young, white, and/or very online people who post here. i just think all of us LGBT people benefit from a more critical approach to these sorts of things.
Click to expand...
stop being a queer gatekeeper
 
i agree that a more critical & intelligent approach to queer topics is necessary for the evolution of the lgbtq+ community as a whole. the thing is, in my case, i'm not really remotely educated on queer theory, and i don't think most people who actively post on this thread are either. to that extent you can bring a horse to water but you can't make it drink; gatekeeping posts about coming out experiences, general happiness or whatever else will result in lower thread activity because like, let's be real, a lot of the people here are pretty young & still figuring themselves out - they're trying to decipher their own identity before getting into the political side of it and removing the one area on the site where they can do that would not be a good idea. smogon is supposed to be a safe space for lgbtq+ users but it's not really a place to find educated views on queer theory or lgbtq+ politics. we do of course have quite a few users who *are* very intelligent and understand these topics to a great degree but it's a small subset of individuals all things considered. like you mentioned, this is still a competitive pokemon site first and foremost, and while plenty of us are capable of having the bigger talks there isn't any inherent overlap between "competitive mons player" and "person who is very educated on lgbtq+ topics" so naturally the number is p low.

a thread labeled "lgbtq+" is just not really enough to broach an entire topic that's *extremely* relevant, personal and important in today's world. a lot of us who have posted here have dealt with the experience of wanting to talk about something but not being comfortable with it because of whatever ongoing discussion has been happening, whether that's someone coming out, speaking about their experiences with bigotry, having greater discussions or whatever else. at risk of getting clowned for a terrible analogy, it'd be like trying to make a post about the psychology behind suicide in the depression thread; it's the best place to put it, but the atmosphere in that thread is completely different and it'd be uncomfortable to put it there for that reason. so on that note i have a quick proposal - why not have a thread labeled "queer politics" or something similar? someone smarter than me can come up with the title.

i think it is incredibly important for this thread - or a different thread, who cares - to remain as a safe place for people to share things that are personal & take a lot of bravery. it's easy to forget that coming out at first can be Very Difficult depending on a lot of factors after you've been out for a while, diminishing that by taking it away or gatekeeping the discussion or whatever will cause just as many problems as it fixes if not more. it's clear that this thread isn't enough to house everything though. there are some completely valid counterarguments against a second thread; it could be seen as diminishing the idea of queer theory as secondary to the current state of the thread, or dismissive of the idea that daily life & politics aren't intertwined (ty termi for wording this better than i could) or maybe it's just putting a band aid over a bigger problem i don't actually understand. i dunno, it's hard to say, but it's a discussion worth having & an avenue worth pursuing imo. apologies if this isn't coming out right, i'm struggling to find the words i wanna use for this a lot but i'd be happy to talk more about it privately if ppl think it's worthwhile.
 
Nothing extremely new but I'm so much more comfortable with myself and being bi. I've been out for years now (coming up on 3 years now for Smogon :O) but as we all know just being out doesn't make you instantly proud, confident, or anything of the sort. So having this feeling is great. I'm proud to be bi.

S/o to literally every single person I talk to on here cuz this place is a big part of my life, and it really has helped me. Hope you're all staying safe and keeping well! :D
 
starry blanket said:
i'm sorry for what you're dealing with but this is just not the place to post about this lmao. this isn't anything personal since i'm sure you had the right intentions, and i do genuinely hope you get better. with that said, i think posts like this are symptomatic of a greater issue with this thread.

i don't blame vonFiedler for thinking this was the appropriate place to post this. this thread has slowly and steadily devolved over the last year to be the most hugboxy, "valid at all costs" environment imaginable to a point where critical queer discussions get drowned out or actively discouraged. instead the focus is on including EVERYONE in the smogon LGBT space, even white cis straight people in some cases (not saying that specifically applies here, idk for sure). hell, not that long ago you had a former admin talking about being pegged in this thread, as if it's an appropriate place to discuss that LOL?

the point: the specific brand of gay discourse that takes place in this thread, focused on pronouns, microidentities, "validity," and overly positive behavior is not doing anyone any good. i'm not saying that pronouns and labels aren't important or that being a welcoming and inclusive community is a bad thing, not at all. just that there's much more to queer experience than pronouns and labels, and there does need to be SOME degree of gatekeeping as to what's appropriate and inappropriate to post in queer spaces, even ones online on a pokemon forum.

also to tie all of this together, a lot of these posts i've read the last few months that fit into this sort of thing come from people i know for a fact are white. intersectionality is hardly brought up in this thread, so i urge those of you who are white and queer to consider how your whiteness awards you the ability to think of queerness in these radically online frameworks. most of us nonwhites aren't really able to fixate on labels and validity in the way whites are.

i hope this post isn't too inflammatory for this thread, and i don't intend to disregard or insult the real struggles of the young, white, and/or very online people who post here. i just think all of us LGBT people benefit from a more critical approach to these sorts of things.
Click to expand...
nah but for real, what is the actual reason for posting the second half of this post. I get that the mod talking about getting pegged is definitely not fit for the thread, but then you go out on an escapade attacking all the nice people talking about their LGBTQ+ experiences, coming out, finding out who they are, just because YOU don't feel comfortable discussing more important topics? I don't think anyone would mind more serious discussion, it's not going to derail the thread. Nobody actually cares if it's too "positive", and if you do, how about you just post anyways?! We are literally all a team here, we want the same goal of equality that you do. Its not gonna make people butthurt to discuss serious LGBTQ+ topics in the thread along with the more positive posts. Like, if you really think we can't lead a serious discussion here, then why even post lmao

not even gonna talk about the race/intersectionality talk, it's a wonderful topic to bring up but the way you put it is definitely too targetful and just trying to strawman your argument

tl;dr: nobody minds serious topics here, it's part of the thread's purpose, but also nobody, and I mean NOBODY, except yourself, minds the positive parts, they can coexist. (and if there are others who mind, how about you speak up instead of sitting there and letting this happen with one lousy post)
 
claiming that my post was referencing coming out posts is bad faith and silly. also, to try and claim i’m the only one who thinks this thread has devolved in quality is crazy considering just a couple pages back you had people complaining about the exact same thing I’m complaining about.

bringing up race is not a straw man. race comes before every other identifier whether we like it or not. the reality is, the way “discussion” is framed in this thread is very similar to the way queer discussion happens in a lot of other online communities. this specific issue largely stems from white LGBT people who don’t have the life experience to fathom that things go beyond “being valid” lol.

also stop suggesting we make two threads. this thread is marked as serious. let serious discussion happen here. my whole issue is that you have people who actively discourage serious discussion because it can sometimes get heated.
 
Calling all the blog posts "Positive Parts" is a stretch. I think there is value to posts of people grappling with identity and having conversations about shared identities, but when this thread is nothing but people treating it like a personal journal and just posting updates while paying no attention to anything else happening, that blows. That's not community that's just attention seeking behavior. And even that's okay to be honest because we are historically a community starved of caring and sympathetic attention, but jesus some amount of awareness and self moderation would be so great.

Honestly this thread has felt more like a bad AA meeting as of late with "hi everyone I'm so and so, and I'm a [unspecified queer identity], it all started when..." and then no one engages beyond a few luvdiscs. I think a community is more than just that we all happen to wear the same hat, I think fostering relationships and empathy with each other and actually interacting would do a lot of good here.

That said: what won't do a lot of good is just older "more read" queers dunking on young kids still learning and navigating this shit. That would suck worse. Save that for your intelligentsia group chats.
 
piggybacking off of starry blanket 's post about whiteness and how concepts like "coming out" and "validity" aren't necessarily universal LGBTQ+ concepts nor the only valid goals, I wanted to share this toolkit from the National Black Justice Coalition about "inviting in" -- an alternative framework to coming out that decenters acceptance from mainstream / cishet society and gives the power to LGBTQ+ people to allow people to know about their identity on their own terms.

https://nbjc.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/INviting-In-Toolkit-web.pdf

if coming out is important to you -- that's great, and i'm glad for anyone who's felt validation or comfort or community from opening up about their identity or struggles on this thread. that said, I think it's super important to stress that being out doesn't NEED to be a goal. there are narratives and implications within the community that being "closeted" or not sharing every aspect of ones identity is akin to shame, a lack of authenticity, or some sort of growth or progress that needs to occur. none of that is true. you are under no obligation to tell anyone your sexuality or gender identity, and you are no less than or less worthy if you choose not to, aren't comfortable to, or if you're in a situation where it isn't safe for you to.

I say this as someone who is VERY publicly gay and gnc/nb (like, my livelihood and career revolves around it type beat). There are still members of my extended family who don't know i'm lgbt (not tryna get written out of any wills for no reason) -- I still code-switch every time I get into an Uber or order food or go to the dentist -- in an emergency situation with my boyfriend I've referred to him as my friend/roommate to avoid bias when he was being treated. None of that is wrong, or shameful, or indication that I'm ashamed of myself or my identity -- and it applies to all sorts of situations and identities in different ways. Visibility for the sake of visibility is a scam, and your safety is infinitely more important than representation.

I don't want this to come across as dissuading anyone from opening up or telling people they're close with if they feel it'd be important for their relationships or life -- but I do think it's important to recognize that "coming out" is, as starry blanket said, a framework that doesn't operate the same way across lines of race (especially), class, or other types of privilege, and I think it's important that we make sure to highlight and lift up experiences that might not align with the narratives we see a lot of in this thread. For anyone interested in reading more about this, here's another great article about how the experience and framework of "coming out" differs for white and nonwhite LGBTQ+ people - https://archermagazine.com.au/2017/07/culture-coming-out/
 
I'm definitely not involved in this thread as much as I would love to, and I'm probably the least person who can offer his perspective on more delicate issues such as the ones that have been brought up recently, but I've read the ongoing discussion and the latest posts and I wanted to give my 2 cents.
starry blanket I agree with you on some things and disagree with you on others.
First of all, I agree that the post you were calling out wasn't exactly appropriate, sometimes people might take the opportunity to vent here even when it's not entirely related to LGBTQ+ issues & isn't about sharing a personal experience that might touch others, encourage them to come forward, or simply offer a new discussion topic. I think this is more of an issue of "people seeing this as a safe place to vent their emotions because of the overwhelming support everyone receives when talking about their issues", which is, like you said in a different way, misleading. So yeah, I definitely wouldn't have posted something about that nature here.
I don't agree with the fact that people acknowledging their pronouns and coming to terms with their identities while sharing it here isn't doing any good, it's a strictly negative way of seeing things and I feel like it might even discourage people to comment further about it, thinking it may not be helpful to anybody, when in reality it is, and dare I say more than anyone could possibly imagine. What you're doing here is trying to define the queer experience based on your own queer experience, which looks like, and forgive me for the lack of a better word, a rather self-centered view. There's definitely issues, stories, experiences that are in no way comparable to someone simply realizing they're more comfortable with "they/them" pronouns, but the process that person might go through, the struggle they might face when facing the reality, the path leading to the acceptance are no less important than any other experience being shared here. Basically, my view is that pronouns and labels are just as relevant as anything else. It will always be a matter of identity, of being comfortable in your own skin and nature, of being able to tell your friends and family, there is just so much going on behind the "Hello I would like She/Her pronouns now" message that you're calling out here, and just because someone isn't sharing an impactful (and sometimes even painful) experience with lots of struggle that doesn't mean it's of less relevance. Hell, this might even mean that everyone might be having an easier time coming to terms with their identity and that progress is being made.
I hope I made myself clear enough, and by no means this is an attack to you or anyone who has been involved in the discussion, just felt like posting
 
Cheryl. said:
nah but for real, what is the actual reason for posting the second half of this post. I get that the mod talking about getting pegged is definitely not fit for the thread, but then you go out on an escapade attacking all the nice people talking about their LGBTQ+ experiences, coming out, finding out who they are, just because YOU don't feel comfortable discussing more important topics? I don't think anyone would mind more serious discussion, it's not going to derail the thread. Nobody actually cares if it's too "positive", and if you do, how about you just post anyways?! We are literally all a team here, we want the same goal of equality that you do. Its not gonna make people butthurt to discuss serious LGBTQ+ topics in the thread along with the more positive posts. Like, if you really think we can't lead a serious discussion here, then why even post lmao

not even gonna talk about the race/intersectionality talk, it's a wonderful topic to bring up but the way you put it is definitely too targetful and just trying to strawman your argument

tl;dr: nobody minds serious topics here, it's part of the thread's purpose, but also nobody, and I mean NOBODY, except yourself, minds the positive parts, they can coexist. (and if there are others who mind, how about you speak up instead of sitting there and letting this happen with one lousy post)
Click to expand...

i believe you completely missed starry's point. their critique is that this thread almost entirely consists of very young and very white LGTBQ folk posting their two liner about their preferred pronouns that is completely devoid of any discussion. and when actual discussion is to be had, it gets shot down because shockingly all people in the LGTBQ community do not think the same. starry is not saying this thread needs to be devoid of happiness and "you're valid" posts but instead that there needs to be a healthy balance of actual discussion of LGTBQ topics. if you are so bent on identity being a continued topic of conversation in this thread then i personally do not understand how you see starry's take on race as a straw man, unless you truly think a gay white man has the same experience as a black trans woman. they're not saying you can't be white and participate in this conversation lol

unironically feel like you need someone to tell you "it's okay to be white"
 
KM said:
piggybacking off of starry blanket 's post about whiteness and how concepts like "coming out" and "validity" aren't necessarily universal LGBTQ+ concepts nor the only valid goals, I wanted to share this toolkit from the National Black Justice Coalition about "inviting in" -- an alternative framework to coming out that decenters acceptance from mainstream / cishet society and gives the power to LGBTQ+ people to allow people to know about their identity on their own terms.

https://nbjc.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/INviting-In-Toolkit-web.pdf

if coming out is important to you -- that's great, and i'm glad for anyone who's felt validation or comfort or community from opening up about their identity or struggles on this thread. that said, I think it's super important to stress that being out doesn't NEED to be a goal. there are narratives and implications within the community that being "closeted" or not sharing every aspect of ones identity is akin to shame, a lack of authenticity, or some sort of growth or progress that needs to occur. none of that is true. you are under no obligation to tell anyone your sexuality or gender identity, and you are no less than or less worthy if you choose not to, aren't comfortable to, or if you're in a situation where it isn't safe for you to.

I say this as someone who is VERY publicly gay and gnc/nb (like, my livelihood and career revolves around it type beat). There are still members of my extended family who don't know i'm lgbt (not tryna get written out of any wills for no reason) -- I still code-switch every time I get into an Uber or order food or go to the dentist -- in an emergency situation with my boyfriend I've referred to him as my friend/roommate to avoid bias when he was being treated. None of that is wrong, or shameful, or indication that I'm ashamed of myself or my identity -- and it applies to all sorts of situations and identities in different ways. Visibility for the sake of visibility is a scam, and your safety is infinitely more important than representation.

I don't want this to come across as dissuading anyone from opening up or telling people they're close with if they feel it'd be important for their relationships or life -- but I do think it's important to recognize that "coming out" is, as starry blanket said, a framework that doesn't operate the same way across lines of race (especially), class, or other types of privilege, and I think it's important that we make sure to highlight and lift up experiences that might not align with the narratives we see a lot of in this thread. For anyone interested in reading more about this, here's another great article about how the experience and framework of "coming out" differs for white and nonwhite LGBTQ+ people - https://archermagazine.com.au/2017/07/culture-coming-out/
Click to expand...


Thanks for starting this topic (or continuing - this thread is clearly too long for me to read all the posts but I've read everything since starry blanket's post).

I read the second article you linked by Sanchez (or perhaps Adan Sanchez, I don't know how Mexican last names work, my apologies, I don't know what the author's last name is).

I agree with your point and I'm grateful you made it, that coming out doesn't need to be a goal and isn't always good. It soothes me a little because it's a perspective I've never thought of that might have useful applications in my own life. You made the point that "coming out isn't always necessary" in the context that this thread might be going too far in representing white/cishet/male opinions; i.e., it's easier for white/cishet/males to come out, usually.

However, what do you think about these two points by Sanchez
  • "As much as I feel empowered by my decision not to come out to my family, I acknowledge that part of it is rooted in fear. The fear of disownment and the loss of economic and emotional support hangs over this decision.
    As much as I’d like to say it’s a radical act to challenge the whiteness of coming out, it is also rooted in a very primal and humane fear: the loss of one’s parents."
  • "In truth, it is our whitewashed politics that have failed us. They have failed us in their capacity to describe our lived experiences and they have failed, again and again, to encompass our diverse identities."
I think there's a clear contradiction here, or at least tension, in their argument. They're on the one hand seeming to blame Mexican culture for their troubles in coming out (Sanchez directly says Mexican culture doesn't give enough space to explore queerness). They then go on to conclude that it is the whiteness of the politics that is failing to give capacity to describe queer and diverse identities. I understand on some level Sanchez is saying that whiteness is suffocating a necessary wider perspective on coming out. But isn't there some blame on Mexican culture too?

What I'm saying probably has uncomfortable implications for queer critical theory, whatever that is, I'm saying, wouldn't it be better for people to adopt the "White" perspective on coming out? I don't want it to be difficult to come out and I'm very sad that it's so hard for me. I'm not saying I'd like to be White, I'm just saying that I generally agree with the dominant White culture on issues of coming out and if this issue was totally white-washed for everyone, this would be good. I'm saying it's the responsibility of many minority cultures' to change because on balance, I think there are more historical examples of successful cultural changes coming from within than being imposed.

PS: I understand that Mexicans can be considered White, but from a general American perspective, there's definitely a distinction to be made between White European ancestry and White (also potentially European) ancestry from Mexico. The main point anyways is a difference between White American culture and Mexican culture.
 
I haven't posted in a while but I'm starting to finally become super comfortable with my identity and sexuality. I've told a good chunk of my family that I'm bi and haven't received any backlash surprisingly, and have been able to casually tell most people about my sexuality. It's still not super easy to tell everyone that I'm genderfluid / non-binary, but I'm definitely making strides.
I read up and congrats to those who've gotten good news and felt better about themselves, and if you are struggling I hope things start looking up for you soon
9084_nonbinary_pride_heart.png
 
hey. sorry to take away from the discussion here but i wanted to post an update.

first,
I came out to my close friends. It was really tough for me but, it was the right step and now I have seen a change in behavior from them, which makes me over the moon. Soon, I plan on coming out to my community. Im quite nervous that I will have a lot more backlash, but I'm taking it one step at a time, and can't backtrack now!

second
https://twitter.com/x/status/1406789809436119044
Gender is difficult. Not sure where I end up, but this feels like the right step for me right now. It makes me feel great, and that's what's right for me.

If anyone needs to talk, don't be afraid to reach out. I promise you more people care about you then you think. :blobnom:
 
So I know pride month is almost over and all but screw it, I recently found this thread and it made me really wanted to share what I've been feeling. I've been thinking about it a lot for a while and I'm still sort of questioning, but I'm pretty sure I'm asexual (or at the very least somewhere on the ace spectrum). And, while I'm especially questioning my gender, I think that I'm genderfluid/genderflux. I know that this all sounds a bit "special snowflake-y" but those are the labels that just feel... right to me. I'm still questioning and I can't stop obsessing over the idea that I'm just faking it or I just want to be special or something, but still. I just wanted to share this. I've been planning on it for about a week or two but I got really nervous. I'm still pretty nervous about it but yeah.

In short, I'm asexual and genderfluid/genderflux. Those are the labels that just feel right and make me happy. I still like she/her pronouns though, so you can still refer to me as such. I am thinking of experimenting with others though. Anyways, happy pride month y'all!
 
NylaTheWolf said:
So I know pride month is almost over and all but screw it, I recently found this thread and it made me really wanted to share what I've been feeling. I've been thinking about it a lot for a while and I'm still sort of questioning, but I'm pretty sure I'm asexual (or at the very least somewhere on the ace spectrum). And, while I'm especially questioning my gender, I think that I'm genderfluid/genderflux. I know that this all sounds a bit "special snowflake-y" but those are the labels that just feel... right to me. I'm still questioning and I can't stop obsessing over the idea that I'm just faking it or I just want to be special or something, but still. I just wanted to share this. I've been planning on it for about a week or two but I got really nervous. I'm still pretty nervous about it but yeah.

In short, I'm asexual and genderfluid/genderflux. Those are the labels that just feel right and make me happy. I still like she/her pronouns though, so you can still refer to me as such. I am thinking of experimenting with others though. Anyways, happy pride month y'all!
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Since you felt free to share it with us, it means that you are open to discuss it.

I don't know but, you might be young, so there's no hurry at all. It took me 7 years to accept me as a gay person.
And when I did, nothing was as hard as i though it would be.

Maybe it might be more difficult for assexuals because it is an orietation that suffers preconceptions even in the LGBT community.
But spend your time discussing it with yourself and don't worry about relationships
 
pokemonisfun said:
Thanks for starting this topic (or continuing - this thread is clearly too long for me to read all the posts but I've read everything since starry blanket's post).

I read the second article you linked by Sanchez (or perhaps Adan Sanchez, I don't know how Mexican last names work, my apologies, I don't know what the author's last name is).

I agree with your point and I'm grateful you made it, that coming out doesn't need to be a goal and isn't always good. It soothes me a little because it's a perspective I've never thought of that might have useful applications in my own life. You made the point that "coming out isn't always necessary" in the context that this thread might be going too far in representing white/cishet/male opinions; i.e., it's easier for white/cishet/males to come out, usually.

However, what do you think about these two points by Sanchez
  • "As much as I feel empowered by my decision not to come out to my family, I acknowledge that part of it is rooted in fear. The fear of disownment and the loss of economic and emotional support hangs over this decision.
    As much as I’d like to say it’s a radical act to challenge the whiteness of coming out, it is also rooted in a very primal and humane fear: the loss of one’s parents."
  • "In truth, it is our whitewashed politics that have failed us. They have failed us in their capacity to describe our lived experiences and they have failed, again and again, to encompass our diverse identities."
I think there's a clear contradiction here, or at least tension, in their argument. They're on the one hand seeming to blame Mexican culture for their troubles in coming out (Sanchez directly says Mexican culture doesn't give enough space to explore queerness). They then go on to conclude that it is the whiteness of the politics that is failing to give capacity to describe queer and diverse identities. I understand on some level Sanchez is saying that whiteness is suffocating a necessary wider perspective on coming out. But isn't there some blame on Mexican culture too?

What I'm saying probably has uncomfortable implications for queer critical theory, whatever that is, I'm saying, wouldn't it be better for people to adopt the "White" perspective on coming out? I don't want it to be difficult to come out and I'm very sad that it's so hard for me. I'm not saying I'd like to be White, I'm just saying that I generally agree with the dominant White culture on issues of coming out and if this issue was totally white-washed for everyone, this would be good. I'm saying it's the responsibility of many minority cultures' to change because on balance, I think there are more historical examples of successful cultural changes coming from within than being imposed.

PS: I understand that Mexicans can be considered White, but from a general American perspective, there's definitely a distinction to be made between White European ancestry and White (also potentially European) ancestry from Mexico. The main point anyways is a difference between White American culture and Mexican culture.
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first of all sorry for not answering this for a month i was thinking about it and then i forgot to keep thinking about it.

i don't want to speak for the author or to their experiences, and I can't speak to the specific cultural framework that they're coming from, but I imagine their response might be to note that a lot of gendered / heteronormative expectations within Mexican culture and Latinidad more generally are rooted in colonial (religious) ideals and didn't necessarily exist in the same capacity in precolonial Latin America. there's a wealth of critical literature out there exploring the origin of gender binaries and anti-gay stigma emerging directly out of judeo-christian ideology and religious colonialism / missionary work -- not just in the case of Mexico, but in most other colonized or formerly colonized communities as well.

that doesn't necessarily affect your wish that there wouldn't be cultural barriers to coming out -- whether or not they're imposed through colonialism or something else -- but I think it's important to make note of. that said, I think the point of concepts like "inviting in" or de-emphasizing the traditional narrative of coming out isn't to glorify or excuse the cultural difficulties that complicate the process, it's just to recognize that the /expectation/ placed on LGBTQ+ people to come out is unfair given the disparity in how different communities and cultures respond to it.

i think maybe a related concept in queer discourse we can tie this into is the idea of like, pronoun circles -- where in an effort to be inclusive, workplaces or schools would go around in a circle and have everyone say their pronouns. while well-meaning, it creates a situation where trans/gnc people are often either forced to out themselves or conversely to legitimize people's misgendering by misstating their own pronouns for their safety / comfort. an alternative system would be to provide space or means for people to voluntarily share their pronouns at their own comfort and on their own schedule -- whether that's privately giving employees the option to put their pronouns on a nametag, or a professor sending out an e-mail before the first day of class asking if anyone has a different preferred name / pronouns to the ones listed in the university system.

in many ways, the expectation of coming out fully as a necessary and universal part of the queer experience is much like pronoun circles -- it works for some people, but it puts many others in awkward situations where they're forced to choose between "authenticity" and "safety". the idea of de-emphasizing the importance of coming out doesn't mean throwing out the idea altogether, it just means adapting it or modifying it in a way that lets people take things at their own pace and disclose however much or little they want to as many or few people.
 
KM said:
first of all sorry for not answering this for a month i was thinking about it and then i forgot to keep thinking about it.

i don't want to speak for the author or to their experiences, and I can't speak to the specific cultural framework that they're coming from, but I imagine their response might be to note that a lot of gendered / heteronormative expectations within Mexican culture and Latinidad more generally are rooted in colonial (religious) ideals and didn't necessarily exist in the same capacity in precolonial Latin America. there's a wealth of critical literature out there exploring the origin of gender binaries and anti-gay stigma emerging directly out of judeo-christian ideology and religious colonialism / missionary work -- not just in the case of Mexico, but in most other colonized or formerly colonized communities as well.

that doesn't necessarily affect your wish that there wouldn't be cultural barriers to coming out -- whether or not they're imposed through colonialism or something else -- but I think it's important to make note of. that said, I think the point of concepts like "inviting in" or de-emphasizing the traditional narrative of coming out isn't to glorify or excuse the cultural difficulties that complicate the process, it's just to recognize that the /expectation/ placed on LGBTQ+ people to come out is unfair given the disparity in how different communities and cultures respond to it.

i think maybe a related concept in queer discourse we can tie this into is the idea of like, pronoun circles -- where in an effort to be inclusive, workplaces or schools would go around in a circle and have everyone say their pronouns. while well-meaning, it creates a situation where trans/gnc people are often either forced to out themselves or conversely to legitimize people's misgendering by misstating their own pronouns for their safety / comfort. an alternative system would be to provide space or means for people to voluntarily share their pronouns at their own comfort and on their own schedule -- whether that's privately giving employees the option to put their pronouns on a nametag, or a professor sending out an e-mail before the first day of class asking if anyone has a different preferred name / pronouns to the ones listed in the university system.

in many ways, the expectation of coming out fully as a necessary and universal part of the queer experience is much like pronoun circles -- it works for some people, but it puts many others in awkward situations where they're forced to choose between "authenticity" and "safety". the idea of de-emphasizing the importance of coming out doesn't mean throwing out the idea altogether, it just means adapting it or modifying it in a way that lets people take things at their own pace and disclose however much or little they want to as many or few people.
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You´re definitely right.
I didn't consider our personal cultures and living styles

To make a little more context, I'm Brazilian and this heteronormative expectation that you said is present here.
Coming out is something good, but not obligatory.
Everyone should be free to do it or not
Accepting yourself is more important than other's acceptation

Thanks for the advice
 
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