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(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon
- Thread starter BriarRose
- Start date
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Why can't you buy Ethers normally in like any game.
Most RPGs with an MP-esque mechanic have some sort of refill item for it that you can buy. Every move in Pokémon has a finite number of PP that's inversely proportional to how powerful it is. Lategame attacks have a small enough number that running out of an Ice Beam or something during a Victory Road trek is actually feasible.
But nah, you gonna find that stuff lying around in specific spots on routes, farm rocks with Rock Smash, or luck out via Pickup. It's so weird.
Most RPGs with an MP-esque mechanic have some sort of refill item for it that you can buy. Every move in Pokémon has a finite number of PP that's inversely proportional to how powerful it is. Lategame attacks have a small enough number that running out of an Ice Beam or something during a Victory Road trek is actually feasible.
But nah, you gonna find that stuff lying around in specific spots on routes, farm rocks with Rock Smash, or luck out via Pickup. It's so weird.
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The big difference is that in a lot of those games healing spells, which use MP, are your main source of recovering HP even outside of battle, while in Pokemon things like Max Potion and Full Restore not only exist, but can be bought outright. Most RPGs don't have unlimited items that can heal you from 1 HP to full.
For Example, in most games in the Dragon Quest series most healing items barely work for you as early as the early-mid game(and with a limited inventory in the earliest installments, are usually the easiest thing to throw away or sell), with the exception of the World Dew/Yggdrasil Dew which fully heals the entire party but in most games you can only have one in your entire inventory at any given time. As such healing spells are pretty much your source of healing outside of battle(and especially inside of battle since as mention only the dew item heals a good amount of HP.
While running out of PP sucks, you have 6 party members that each can have up 4 moves with their own PP. Managing PP isn't that hard if you don't just try to kill everything with the same single Pokemon.
I also originally thought that it was weird the Ether items were never sold in shops, at least the very basic Ether.
But, thinking about how the games are now with Pokemon Centers being abundant, quick travel at a press of a button, and anywhere access of the PC; another question pops in my head when the question of making Ethers more accessible: do we even need them? Yes, they would be convenient for those low PP moves later in the game if you happen to be someplace not so easily accessible and don't want to fly to a Pokemon Center... but honestly I feel such situations are few and far between. And if (somehow) your party does get low on PP, well just swap some of your other Pokemon out from the PC.
While maybe in past games they would have had a slight use if made buyable (though I could remember all the times I ever used one it would probably only take one hand), nowadays if they removed Ethers I don't think anyone would notice if they were just playing through and only focusing on the items they needed.
"So you're saying they should just remove Ethers"? No, I don't think they should remove eithers... but nor do I think making them simply buyable would help them any. No, I think what Ethers need is to give an additional boon.
So, my idea is that Ethers, in addition restoring PP, should also give a temporary power boost for a bit. How? Well, here's how I think it could work:
- First off, Ether and Max Ether completely restore all of a selected Move's PP. Elixir and Max Elixir restore all Move's PP.
- After restoring all PP, a certain number of that PP turns into "EP" (Ether Points). Ether and Elixir will turn 5 of a Move's PP into EP. Max Ether and Max Elixir will turn 10 of a Move's PP into EP.
- When a Move that has EP is selected to use in-battle, you're given three options: Use 1 PP (if that Move has any normal PP available), Use 1 EP, or use 3 EP (if that Move has 3 or more EP left).
- So, what does EP do? If you use 1 EP the Move's Power is increased by +5 and Accuracy & chance of a secondary effect activating is increased by 10%. If you use 3 EP the Move's Power is increased by +10 and Accuracy & chance of a secondary effect activating is increased by 20%.
- Lost EP cannot be restored (once used it turns back into an (empty) normal PP); The only way to gain EP is from using Ethers. Also, if an Ether is used on a Move that already has EP, the existing EP is overridden with the amount of new EP (EXAMPLE 1: If a Max Ether is used on a Move that has 1-9 EP on it, that Move will now have 10 EP; E2: If an Elixir is used and a Move has 6 EP on it, that Move will now have 5 EP).
Eitherway, I don't think we're going back to the ways things were, so instead I think they need to make Ethers something you want to use even if you're good on PP (possibly even full on PP). This would make finding them out in the field more worthwhile as its a free power boost to (a) Move(s) for a little bit (which would be something that's more useful if you're in or heading into tough battles than ever finding yourself in a situation where you think a little more PP would be handy). Also I think it would encourage for their to be a method to obtain more, probably not buying it straight from shops, but maybe have an NPC who knows how to mix together a Potion with a Leppa Berry to make an Ether (like 1 Potion & 1 Leppa equals an Ether, a Super Potion & 2 Leppa equals a Max Ether, a Hyper Potion & 4 Leppa equals an Elixir, and a Max Potion & 8 Leppa equal a Max Elixir). Of course that means making Leppa Berries more available, but those are easier to make wild respawns or give a Berry planting spot to harvest your own crop.
Items are great for topping you off to let you save MP for battles, and you can also buy the super potent healing items by endgame in many games. Elixirs in Final Fantasy alone heal you to full and restore your MP, and you tend to be swimming in them eventually. Your example for Dragon Quest seems very specific to that series and not like most RPGs I've played.
The main advantages of using healing spells tend to be them targeting the entire party for action efficiency or overall potency. And even then there are games where using them outside of emergencies is super discouraged. Pokémon is actually kind of odd here because healing moves are objectively worse than items due to how turn priority works, item scaling, how healing moves typically only restore 50% of your max HP, and the super limited moveslots.
Except having a fully kitted team of 6 is unrealistic in a lot of games (you often rock 4), plus sometimes your best answer to the majority of a dungeon and/or boss does happen to be a single Pokémon.
Free Pokémon Centers and easy fast travel do help, but sometimes you want to deep dive an area and would prefer to not have to leave to get PP back.
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There's 2 ways Pokemon can do difficulty. For simplicity, I'm going to refer to them as Victory Road and Battle Tower.
In Victory Road difficulty, the challenge is endurance. Nothing is a threat to you, but you're going through a bunch of fights. One hit this fight might matter to next fight. Healing items are a resource to be hoarded, PP matters. You can go diving deeper for additional rewards, but that means more fights. You can use repels, but that's money that could be spent on healing items. Trainers give out cash, but often involve lengthier battles. This was mostly what early Pokemon did. Dungeons were built this way, the E4 worked this way, free heals basically only happened in cities or very deep into dungeons. You outlevel your oppt, can plan SE moves, but is that enough to handle not just this Hiker, but also the next 3?
Battle Tower, the idea is that you enter on roughly equal footing with your oppt. You both have full teams, full HP, and similar resources. Therefore, the goal becomes to outplay your oppt. If mons go down, who cares, you'll be back to full before the next fight, the important thing is knowing when to sack something to win a battle. You see this in postgame areas(hence the name), but it's also how competitive works, and often how modern players creating certain challenge runs work.
And the thing is, either of these CAN work. But the current games don't support either. You get so many healing items/cash that not entering a battle at full is silly, but also no one has a full team of 6 and you have to work to avoid over-leveling. Trainer fights and wild mons are both avoidable. They even eliminated Set mode. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but GF used to do VR difficulty for the main campaign and seems to have decided they don't like that. And instead of switching to doing everything BT, they just...don't have difficulty? Which is definitely A choice for an RPG to make.
In Victory Road difficulty, the challenge is endurance. Nothing is a threat to you, but you're going through a bunch of fights. One hit this fight might matter to next fight. Healing items are a resource to be hoarded, PP matters. You can go diving deeper for additional rewards, but that means more fights. You can use repels, but that's money that could be spent on healing items. Trainers give out cash, but often involve lengthier battles. This was mostly what early Pokemon did. Dungeons were built this way, the E4 worked this way, free heals basically only happened in cities or very deep into dungeons. You outlevel your oppt, can plan SE moves, but is that enough to handle not just this Hiker, but also the next 3?
Battle Tower, the idea is that you enter on roughly equal footing with your oppt. You both have full teams, full HP, and similar resources. Therefore, the goal becomes to outplay your oppt. If mons go down, who cares, you'll be back to full before the next fight, the important thing is knowing when to sack something to win a battle. You see this in postgame areas(hence the name), but it's also how competitive works, and often how modern players creating certain challenge runs work.
And the thing is, either of these CAN work. But the current games don't support either. You get so many healing items/cash that not entering a battle at full is silly, but also no one has a full team of 6 and you have to work to avoid over-leveling. Trainer fights and wild mons are both avoidable. They even eliminated Set mode. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but GF used to do VR difficulty for the main campaign and seems to have decided they don't like that. And instead of switching to doing everything BT, they just...don't have difficulty? Which is definitely A choice for an RPG to make.
It's pretty easy to have 6 Pokemon all kitted out actually
I almost never rock 4. I feel like most people have 6, actually
Out of curiosity, is there something which happened that led you to wanting more Ethers?
Whenever I got to a new area I went deep exploring, but never did I find myself wanting more PP. Granted, I didn't bother getting into Wild Battles (there's enough Trainer Battles to get your team in shape, not to mention Raids for Exp Candy). Though the few times I did train, well SV gave us yet another mechanic which made PP use a nonissue: Let's Go & Auto Battle. As long as you have a strong Pokemon out and they have the general Type advantage, if you need to grind experience and/or Material just point them in the direction of the Wild Pokemon and let them at it. And even if they end up losing, they don't faint, just return to you with 1 HP so you can heal them and send them back out again.
So either I was ignoring battles or using Auto Battle.
It was less "wanting more" and more "man I wish these weren't limited so I could use them before the Elite Four." It's been like a literal decade plus, but I'm pretty sure I was running low on PP during a trek through one of the longer sets of Hoenn routes.
Well, while it's not as convenient as buying, if you're playing Hoenn games got the option to grow Leppa Berries.
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This still runs afoul of my "why not let us buy them normally at that point" complaint.
Still have to grow them and it doesn't address the inconvenience factor.
Berry Grocers just sell you the berries :<
Fwiw not *every* game lets you but SP items.
Some series are purposely stingy on "resource items" specifically because these tend to be more important due to active skills being stronger than regular ones.
My favourite series (smt and persona) for example are purposely super stingy when it comes to SP items since these games are purely based off skills and using a skill is always a investment you have to think of when trying to complete dungeons in one go, to the point that it's almost always a better idea to use items to heal than casting healing spells.
Some series are purposely stingy on "resource items" specifically because these tend to be more important due to active skills being stronger than regular ones.
My favourite series (smt and persona) for example are purposely super stingy when it comes to SP items since these games are purely based off skills and using a skill is always a investment you have to think of when trying to complete dungeons in one go, to the point that it's almost always a better idea to use items to heal than casting healing spells.
And then there's SMT5 where this is never a problem
or SMT4 where it's a problem in the early game until it isn't
I believe Persona 5 offers a variety of renewal avenues too actually, Royal even more so.
Game design! It varies.
Like even as a kid, the height of "just use your starter" myself & people I knew usually had a bunch of other Pokemon we used for various reasons (or we just liked) that saw usage and by Gen 2 we all generally had a full team of 6 mons we actively used
Every forum and social media post about teams almost always had a full team of 6
Just about every guidebook suggests it...the UI certainly does too....
It's definitely a game-by-game case to the point trying to compare it to different games can obfuscate things. Often times it comes to just asking basic question in terms of the game itself. So, going back to Pokemon:
Main Question: Should the PP restoring Ether items be made more widely available, notably sold in Marts?
Follow-Up Question 1: Is PP a resource which needs close managing?
Answer: A bit of yes but mostly no. PP is very much a thing you need to keep aware of, BUT there's so many things which the game does to keep PP available for most of your playthrough you don't really need to think about it.
Follow-Up Question 2: Is PP difficult to restore?
Answer: No, there's plenty of healing spots (notably Pokemon Centers) which completely restores a Pokemon's PP (and HP).
Follow-Up Question 3: Would the game balance be effected if Ethers were made sellable?
Answer: For the most part no, because the game makes sure you're never low on PP, that also means Ethers would have little impact for most players.
Follow-Up Question 4: If made sellable, what scenario(s) would an Ether be considered in? What amount of work takes getting into that/those scenario(s)? How would that/those scenario(s) be affected with Ethers being more available?
Answer: The most obvious two scenarios would be in a non-competitive tough battle with a low PP Move (which are are usually powerful Moves) and being deep within a location you don't want to leave but are battling a lot of Pokemon. For the "tough battle", its fairly easy to get into but usually such battles you know are coming up so have plenty of time to prepare for them. Able to restore uses of your Pokemon most powerful Moves would make such battles easier, but because those battles you should have time to plan for you should also have back-ups and alternative options so honestly the difficulty doesn't really change all that much. As for being "deep within a location", that's very much a scenario you need to go out of your way to setup, not just for finding the location but also battling so many Pokemon (most which would likely have to be Wild for you to get so low on PP). If the purpose of you being in the location is just to explore, you should just be avoiding and running away from battles; do your exploring and get out. If you're using the location to train in, in that isolated case than yes Ethers would be helpful in keeping you there longer. However post game usually gives quite a few places to train, some with healing spots close by, that the question becomes is it worth training in that spot if it's going to take so much resources to stay there. Even if the other locations closer to a healing spot isn't as great, having a healing spot right there is a heavy pro as when you need more PP it's a quick trip and back to training; the time and resources saved may tip the scales for the convenience.
Main Question Re-stated: Would the game be negatively affected if the PP restoring Ether items be made more widely available, notably sold in Marts?
Answer: No, it would not.
Counter Main Question: Would the game overall be positively affected?
Answer: No, it would not.
Ethers are sadly stuck in this limbo state, at least as they are now.
Which in itself has sort of always made the game feel "off" when you're rocking a team of 6 Pokemon by the time you're in the second Route of the game (even if you have to double-up on a species for the moment, there's no penalty not to aside having to use an extra Poke Ball which money you'll make back in the next battle (and very likely more)). Meanwhile, all the NPC trainers you're battling at that point only have one or two Pokemon, and throughout the game you'll be lucky if the number of Pokemon other trainers have increases to 3 or 4; even against important NPCs like Gym Leaders and Villain Team Admins. Even if there's the implied sense the player is meant to be a prodigy while these other trainers are pouring their very best in the few Pokemon they're training, you're still thinking in the back of your mind "are you telling me these trainers don't have back-up Pokemon; or at the very least didn't demand both of us to battle with only a certain amount of Pokemon"? And while it makes sense that Gym Leaders would specialize in certain Types, not so most other trainers yet they do; but had they not maybe they could have more Pokemon as than you'd be put in the situation where you need to consider staying in with your active Pokemon or switching to one with a better advantage; you know, a question that may help a new player if they ever want to get into competitive.
When did trend start by the way? I remember old games having regular NPCs with several pokemon
like, some random trainer had like 5 low level pokemon and the "tough" generic NPCs only having 1 that was 5 levels higher
I'd say BW, very few trainers before beating the game had more than 3 Pokemon at a given time, XY just took it to an extreme with a bunch of rapid fire 1-pokemon fights even against admins.
Though I do feel like DP also had quite a number of trainers that never went above 3, but not to the same extent.
I think (purely in terms of randos) a combination of the new exp system + not wanting to bog down routes (see also: around gen 7 there was a trend towards not making routes as full of trainers) is why. Easier to get exp, so it's less required to have a million trainers with a million Pokemon, regardless of how you or I might feel about it.
Still doesn't explain why they're so stingy on 6-pokemon teams even in the post game though.
I also imagine that the shift towards larger Pokedex sizes played a part because they want a wider variety of Pokemon to be shown via the route Trainers, but also want to make a reasonably good grinding curve that doesn't give too much or too little EXP.
Earlier games had larger teams but with less Pokemon in regional Pokedexes they tended to be less varied and were often extremely repetitive. Like even if you met a route Trainer with 5-6 Pokemon, it was almost always multiples of the exact same species. Like someone with five Koffing or five Zubats/Golbats and whatnot. And then similar Trainers of similar classes would often do the same or at least use the same species. Villainous teams had more Pokemon but were exceptionally repetitive. Like Rocket Grunts would always have something like Zubat/Golbat, Koffing, Grimer, and Rattata/Raticate, Galactic Grunts would always have Wurmple line/Glameow/Stunky/Bronzor or Houndour, and whatnot.
Meanwhile the shift in more recent times is that Trainers have less repetition, but smaller teams overall. Flare Grunts have a pretty wide variety of Pokemon but individuals have 1-2 mons at most. Route Trainers in XY and SM have a wider variety of mons to show but often smaller numbers individually to show for it. Even in BW1 and BW2 this was the case, but BW1 was comparatively repetitive compared to older games.
Seems there are very contrasting philosophies on route Trainers and generic NPCs there.
Earlier games had larger teams but with less Pokemon in regional Pokedexes they tended to be less varied and were often extremely repetitive. Like even if you met a route Trainer with 5-6 Pokemon, it was almost always multiples of the exact same species. Like someone with five Koffing or five Zubats/Golbats and whatnot. And then similar Trainers of similar classes would often do the same or at least use the same species. Villainous teams had more Pokemon but were exceptionally repetitive. Like Rocket Grunts would always have something like Zubat/Golbat, Koffing, Grimer, and Rattata/Raticate, Galactic Grunts would always have Wurmple line/Glameow/Stunky/Bronzor or Houndour, and whatnot.
Meanwhile the shift in more recent times is that Trainers have less repetition, but smaller teams overall. Flare Grunts have a pretty wide variety of Pokemon but individuals have 1-2 mons at most. Route Trainers in XY and SM have a wider variety of mons to show but often smaller numbers individually to show for it. Even in BW1 and BW2 this was the case, but BW1 was comparatively repetitive compared to older games.
Seems there are very contrasting philosophies on route Trainers and generic NPCs there.
By the midpoint of the game, in terms of number of trainers per route, I think a fine combination would be:
- A couple of trainers with 1 or 2 high leveled Pokemon (and becoming 2 or 3 late game).
- Most of the remainder having 3 or 4 (and becoming 4 or 5 late game).
- And then having a "Route Boss" which would have 4 or 5 (and a full team late game).
Also, a few changes to how battles start would help. While in Wild Battles its understandable why you would send out the first Pokemon in your party out as an initial act of self-defense, for a Trainer Battle you should be allowed to choose which Pokemon you want out first (obviously not everyone will like this so I suggest making it an Option; Pre-Battle Selection (for Trainer Battles): [On] or [Off]?). That way, for players who choose to have that on, they don't have to worry or think about the first Pokemon in their party becoming overleveled nor need to keep going into the menu to switch them (at least for Trainer Battles). And while I know we have the portable PC now so can swap out Pokemon whenever we like, I still think there is some merit to having "reserve" spots (or even a reserve team) on hand so you don't need to load up the PC all the time. Heck, with Pokedexes being so big now, making it feel like you have a team of 9-12 Pokemon you can easily swap in & out your active team may encourage training more Pokemon you normally would.
Also, SV's "innovation" of having to actually interact with a trainer to battle them instead of it happening on sight gives the player more control on their Pokemon's experience/level gain as well as if they just want to get a move on with their story progression (though I wish they would mark trainers you didn't battle on the map).