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Makin' it Rain: UU Rain discussion
- Thread starter reachzero
- Start date
Two words: Sleep Powder.
Why would you not use Sleep Powder against the one Rain sweeper you won't OHKO (Qwilfish gets OHKOed by Earthquake if you have it).
In that case, there's one more completely healthy sweeper for your Uxie / Umbreon / Chansey / Lanturn or whatever bulky Rain setup Pokemon you are using to set up for later. It has been explained several times before why sacrificing one of you walls just to inflict status on a sweeper is not a good strategy, and is easily rectified.
Oh and Tangrowth's Earthquake does not OHKO Qwilfish, just to clarify that point.
It's not like that Tangrowth is Registeel switching into Kabutops to get a sacrifice paralyze or something - Sleep at least ensures it stays alive if it hits. It also lets it whack whatever the switch in is while gaining some HP for staying in and wasting Rain turns. Incidentally, I'm curious what stall team can't take hits from Qwilfish outside of the rain, since even Swords Danced he shouldn't be OHKOing anything that isn't weak to one of his attacks without Explosion that isn't Chansey. In fact, Qwilfish can't even OHKO Tangrowth consistently (85-101%) with +2 Poison Jab when it is Jolly, which a lot of people run to stay ahead of enemy Kabutops. Even Adamant SD does 70% to Milotic (who yes, isn't doing much back outside of potentially Haze which lets it survive to Recover most of the time), 64% to the aforementioned Registeel who smacks it with EQ, gets crushed by Raikou who shows up on a surprising amount of Stall Teams...
Speaking of whom, I don't know how safe it is to assume all rain teams are running a Heal Beller anyway, but even assuming they are it is an extra turn wasted by the set-up Pokemon before it gets Rain up that you can/need to punish as the opponent. It's not like even the stall teams are running GSC Celiastall with five attacks or whatever, it's not hard to 2HKO a Chansey or a Lanturn, or more likely to put yourself in a position where you can do something to fuck with the incoming Pokemon. If the set-up mon is Uxie it probably took some damage from being out as a lead, which makes it an easier kill here, too.
I'm not really sure what the point is in most of that post, though. "If you're using a team with basically no offensive pressure the opposition can SD up and sweep without rain!"
"without rain"
So why is this relevant, again, anyway? You're trying to show how stall loses if it doesn't do anything to inhibit a relatively fast Swords Dancer ,which isn't a fault of rain to begin with. I sure haven't seen battles against competent stall players go that way because they didn't become competent by letting people stat up in their face.
Speaking of whom, I don't know how safe it is to assume all rain teams are running a Heal Beller anyway, but even assuming they are it is an extra turn wasted by the set-up Pokemon before it gets Rain up that you can/need to punish as the opponent. It's not like even the stall teams are running GSC Celiastall with five attacks or whatever, it's not hard to 2HKO a Chansey or a Lanturn, or more likely to put yourself in a position where you can do something to fuck with the incoming Pokemon. If the set-up mon is Uxie it probably took some damage from being out as a lead, which makes it an easier kill here, too.
I'm not really sure what the point is in most of that post, though. "If you're using a team with basically no offensive pressure the opposition can SD up and sweep without rain!"
"without rain"
So why is this relevant, again, anyway? You're trying to show how stall loses if it doesn't do anything to inhibit a relatively fast Swords Dancer ,which isn't a fault of rain to begin with. I sure haven't seen battles against competent stall players go that way because they didn't become competent by letting people stat up in their face.
Synre, I'm not sure if you read the beginning of the discussion between me and ToF, but I am not in any way arguing as to whether Rain / Damp Rock or whatever is broken or not, nor am I 'blaming' anything with regards to this in particular. I am simply arguing ToF's point about how Tangrowth 'easily deals with' physical Rain sweepers / teams, as I am slightly skeptical of this (IMO it seems far from easy against a good player), and simply want him to elaborate on what he means by this. That is all.
Anyway, as far as bulky Rain Dancers are concerned, there are plenty of great options in UU that should allow any Rain team to get around the biggest problems threatening their sweeping momentum, heavy stall being one of them. Uxie is the best of course as far as options are concerned (Heal Bell, Stealth Rock, U-turn, Safeguard, Memento, screens), but there are some decent alternatives / additional Pokemon including Umbreon (Heal Bell, Taunt, Wish), Chansey (Stealth Rock, Heal Bell, Wish, Healing Wish), Lanturn (Heal Bell, Electric immunity, STAB Thunder / Water attacks), even Cresselia (Safeguard, Lunar Dance, screens). All Rain teams should carry 1 or 2 of these guys, although I admit that choosing the right sets that best fit your team does require some teambuilding skill.
Main point though was that my posts have nothing to do with the discussion of whether Damp Rock / Rain Dance / Rain Pokemon is broken or not, it was just a general point of discussion. If this isn't allowed at this period of time then I apologize, but I haven't read any disclaimer that states that we aren't allowed to continue with the original purpose of the topic, which is a general discussion about Rain strategies.
Anyway, as far as bulky Rain Dancers are concerned, there are plenty of great options in UU that should allow any Rain team to get around the biggest problems threatening their sweeping momentum, heavy stall being one of them. Uxie is the best of course as far as options are concerned (Heal Bell, Stealth Rock, U-turn, Safeguard, Memento, screens), but there are some decent alternatives / additional Pokemon including Umbreon (Heal Bell, Taunt, Wish), Chansey (Stealth Rock, Heal Bell, Wish, Healing Wish), Lanturn (Heal Bell, Electric immunity, STAB Thunder / Water attacks), even Cresselia (Safeguard, Lunar Dance, screens). All Rain teams should carry 1 or 2 of these guys, although I admit that choosing the right sets that best fit your team does require some teambuilding skill.
Main point though was that my posts have nothing to do with the discussion of whether Damp Rock / Rain Dance / Rain Pokemon is broken or not, it was just a general point of discussion. If this isn't allowed at this period of time then I apologize, but I haven't read any disclaimer that states that we aren't allowed to continue with the original purpose of the topic, which is a general discussion about Rain strategies.
@ Twist
I see where your coming from, I'm not saying rain beats stall, I'm saying that rain is one of the best weapon against stall. The reason being is that there is more pressure than usual compared to your everyday offensive teams. I am however agreeing with the fact that stall can match with rain, but it doesn't "flatten" rain like you worded it.
The dual-ghost strategy is in fact one of the best teams to match with stall. The need to spin is harder to pull off, which is why it is harder to face them. Although with smart play, you can circle dual-ghost teams easily. Again, I'm not saying it completely beats stall but its one of the best match ups for it. Stall will always be the best style of play period.
I see where your coming from, I'm not saying rain beats stall, I'm saying that rain is one of the best weapon against stall. The reason being is that there is more pressure than usual compared to your everyday offensive teams. I am however agreeing with the fact that stall can match with rain, but it doesn't "flatten" rain like you worded it.
The dual-ghost strategy is in fact one of the best teams to match with stall. The need to spin is harder to pull off, which is why it is harder to face them. Although with smart play, you can circle dual-ghost teams easily. Again, I'm not saying it completely beats stall but its one of the best match ups for it. Stall will always be the best style of play period.
My point had been more that I think a quality staller (like ToF when he actually played...) would have plenty of ways of dealing with what you were suggesting, since it required an awful lot of passiveness on the Stall side of the field. Though you're right that Tangrowth certainly doesn't shut down rain on its own by any means (though it beats at least 2/4 Rain Sweepers one on one in rain, which is pretty impressive for a Grass-type).
UU has nothing to do with NU.
CAP server allows for actually matches in NU.
I find that NU has shifted to become an actual metagame. Just because it's obscure does NOT condone to being a garbage tier. For gods sakes it's not even like in ADV tiers where the tiers were vastly different.
Actually, NU is quite fun; just because it isn't as mainstream as the others, doesn't mean its automatically garbage. It is, in fact, an actual metagame, just like UU, OU, and UBERs, it just isn't as popular.
It is what you make it, it's hardly balanced, though as there is no quality control like there is in OU and now UU.
Then again, to say any tier is perfectly balanced is a flat out lie, there can be no true balance in a game not designed to be balanced for competitive play, but it's much closer in OU/UU than in NU. NU is more of a fun sideshow for those bored with the conventional (the way UU used to be) than an actual, strict metagame, which means it's something that I could get into.
Then again, we've gotten side-tracked again. Rain is the topic here, not tiering. That said, I really have no new arguments on Rain other than what I've already said: there are checks and playstyles that are able to get around the majority of rain teams and there are rain teams built to counter those checks that fall to other checks. Hail and Sand run stall, sun and rain run offense, use your head and simple strategies and you'll be fine.
Against Electrode the playstyle is obviously more difficult and challenging. I assumed an Uxie lead since they are more common; Electrode is much more difficult to deal with.
In this situation, I do exactly what you said - take the predicted Rain Dance + Explosion while I go to Rotom. Now you tell me what the opposing user is gonna do. First off, I brought in Rotom; if the opposing user brings in a Qwilfish or Kabutops or SD Ludicolo, they are a moron because they know Rotom can survive a +1 Waterfall, and therefore their sweeper will be either KO'd or in Ludicolo's case take heavy damage, enough to be killed by Tangrowth. They are forced to bring in a special sweeper aka Gorebyss, which plays into my hands. If I switch in Chansey and sponge the hit, you know I'm gonna Seismic Toss right off the bat and go to the appropriate counter. Note that this tactic also stalls out some turns of rain. If Ludicolo comes in, note Power Whip can KO I think with Seismic Toss damage (not 100% sure, but then again I have priority on my team as well so its not really an issue).
Again, the strategy is to force your opponent to bring in stuff you can immediately handle while being prepared for what lurks. After Gorebyss switches out, obviously a physical sweeper is coming in, in which case I just send out the appropriate Pokemon - for Kabutops and Ludicolo switchins, Tangrowth, and for Qwilfish, Omastar. Surf under rain I would think does a lot of damage to Qwilfish. Even 40% is good as Arcanine can come in and finish it off.
You may be thinking that I'm really just naming random stall Pokemon and putting them on a team together, so I might as well just state a team for reference: Omastar, Chansey, Hitmontop, Rotom, Tangrowth, Arcanine. The most basic form of stall is this and it handles rain quite well.
@ToF -
Just wondering what your plan is if your opponent leads with Qwilfish who starts setting up Spikes? If you switch in Hitmontop to spin them away, he can Explode if rain is up, stop your Rapid Spin that way and switch in a sweeper if Explosion does not outright kill Hitmontop. In any case Spikes on the field will hinder Hitmontop's ability to switch in and get off Intimidate. If you don't switch Hitmontop in at once, then you'll have to deal with the Spikes for at least the first bout of rain (and possibly more, since Hitmontop can be KOed by many Pokemon that set up rain). In addition to hurting Hitmontop, it would also threaten Tangrowth.
I'm talking about FlareBlitz's team by the way - Qwilfish, Kabutops, Ludicolo, Gorebyss, Cresselia and Mesprit.
Just wondering what your plan is if your opponent leads with Qwilfish who starts setting up Spikes? If you switch in Hitmontop to spin them away, he can Explode if rain is up, stop your Rapid Spin that way and switch in a sweeper if Explosion does not outright kill Hitmontop. In any case Spikes on the field will hinder Hitmontop's ability to switch in and get off Intimidate. If you don't switch Hitmontop in at once, then you'll have to deal with the Spikes for at least the first bout of rain (and possibly more, since Hitmontop can be KOed by many Pokemon that set up rain). In addition to hurting Hitmontop, it would also threaten Tangrowth.
I'm talking about FlareBlitz's team by the way - Qwilfish, Kabutops, Ludicolo, Gorebyss, Cresselia and Mesprit.
Easy - Rotom turn one. If Qwilfish Rain Dances turn one, I get Rotom in for free and Thunderbolt while surviving the Waterfall. I assume a Focus Sash item, so the following turn, he can choose to Spike or kill Rotom, in which case I can either kill Qwilfish with Rotom or revenge-kill with Arcanine. Either he gets rain and a layer up and cripples Rotom and dies, gets rain up and kills Rotom and dies, or gets rain up and two layers of spikes out and then dies without touching Rotom.
As for spinning, I assume FlareBlitz is running a supportive Cresselia or Mesprit, meaning I can spin away the spikes on them. Mesprit probably has Psychic, Uturn/Memento, Stealth Rock, and Rain Dance; I'm more than willing to take a hit in order to get Spikes off the field.
Once Qwilfish is dead, and all I have to deal with are SD Ludicolo and Kabutops, I am almost guaranteed to win - Tangrowth shuts both down.
I think if you played FlareBlitz with that strategy he'll do something like: Spikes turn 1 (Qwilfish has Damp Rock). Next he'll see Rotom and go to Cresselia / Mesprit, who can absorb Thunderbolt no problem. Probably Cresselia, because I remember Cresselia has Toxic and can so force Rotom off the field (unless you're running RestTalk? I don't know what sets you run). He'll Toxic next. If you switch in Hitmontop, he'll use Psychic as you Spin. If not, he'll put up Rain, and if / when you Rest he'll go to Ludicolo. If he goes to Mesprit instead, he'll probably put up rain and U-turn. Mesprit is slower, so will take the Thunderbolt if you use it, and then Ludicolo can come in unscathed and SD.
Looks very much like a fight to me. I don't know, perhaps you can play him in a game and post logs?
Looks very much like a fight to me. I don't know, perhaps you can play him in a game and post logs?
Someone else is more than welcome, I can't get on shoddy at the moment. I'm sure he can find another good stall player like Eo to test with.
I was also under the impression that Gorebyss was so dangerous due to the fact that Chansey is not a reliable answer to it. If not going the Specs route with Hydro Pump, Gorebyss should be utilizing its decent mixed offenses with Waterfall / Aqua Tail. I'm sure that with the spare 36 EVs in Attack Waterfall will 2HKO Chansey with regularity. That's Gorebyss' biggest selling point over Omastar anyway (better than just being pure Water), which it really needs as Omastar is statistically superior in every way. Anything else and you're doing it wrong IMHO. Although when looking at the stats, I see that most people are doing it wrong, which baffles me. Even on my last balanced team with both Chansey and Milotic, I switched in Milotic instead of Chansey on Rain Gorebyss everytime, simply because I was shit scared of the possibility of physical Water attacks in addition to Specs Hydro Pump.
Either way, any defensive team that lacks a specially defensive bulky Water is going to have some trouble. I always thought that Milotic was a staple on stall too, not just for checking certain Rain threats like Gorebyss, but also to prevent SubCM Cresselia from 6-0ing you in the blink of an eye. Of course, PP stalling is a rather pathetic strategy for trying to check a Pokemon, but it is a strategy nonetheless that has a chance of working.
Either way, any defensive team that lacks a specially defensive bulky Water is going to have some trouble. I always thought that Milotic was a staple on stall too, not just for checking certain Rain threats like Gorebyss, but also to prevent SubCM Cresselia from 6-0ing you in the blink of an eye. Of course, PP stalling is a rather pathetic strategy for trying to check a Pokemon, but it is a strategy nonetheless that has a chance of working.
Eh you have a valid point with Gorebyss; I got beat once by a mixed Huntail because I didn't know what to expect. I don't want to hear Specs Gorebyss, that is such a centralized example that I can't believe it's still being mentioned. Definitely not even threat list worthy. I still don't see the merit in going mixed though, especially since some of rain's most difficult Pokemon (Poliwrath and Toxicroak) are KO'd by Psychic, which is like one of the only uses of that move ever. I'd hardly say trading Psychic/HP Grass for Waterfall/Aqua Tail is worth it for a SINGULAR Pokemon, but to each his own.
SubCM Cresselia is dealt with by Chansey? Unless you're assuming mono-attack + Moonlight, in which case I'd probably lose, although Chansey isn't 2HKO'd by a +6 Psychic without a sp.def drop, so I could get lucky.
In certain cases I did use Spiritomb + Rotom, so that would completely neuter that Cresselia, though I'd be more susceptible to rain in that case. Can't cover everything I guess.
Actually, max special attack Cress has a decent chance of 2HKOing Chansey with Psychic at +6, and we all know that Chansey can't stall with Softboiled / Wish and get lucky forever, taking into account both crit and SpDef drop chances.
And before you ask, yes, that is actually a setup I have used with Cress. In fact I have just made a post in the Froslass thread explaining in a nutshell why.
Yeah I read it, Wish + Protect has a higher chance however of you dodging all possible problems. Still you'll probably lose more often than win.
Anyway, that wasn't the point of this post. The point of this post is to show how disappointed I am at this overall subforum and everyone that posts in it. Since the voting threads are now up, I'd like to let you all know that a grand total of 6 people are voting on Damp Rock. People in this thread wouldn't shut up when it came to defending or arguing against Damp Rock, yet we have a pathetic 6 people voting on the item.
I made it clear multiple times in these various UU threads that it was the voters that cause the tier the way it is, and after today I am 100% sure that you guys can argue all you want, but when it comes to actually implementing some form of action all you guys back out. I have a valid reason as to why I couldn't vote, and many people know this already; still, I tried to apply via special permissions to actually do my part and make sure that what I believed was proper tiering for each Pokemon would be counted.
6 people...that's really all I need to say. For a thread as large as this and with as much controversy as this to get only 6 people voting is pathetic and a testament to how much most players on this subforum just fucking talk smack and don't back it up. Seriously, a lot of you that play the UU metagame regularly should be ashamed because you didn't either chose to abstain from voting or just didn't bother at all.
You all definitely blew it again, as with these last few suspect tests (barring those people that voted, you all should be commended; since it's such a small list, it's easy to see who gives a shit about the tier and who just babbles on and on).
I'm not the most busy person on Earth, and I'm definitely far from being, but I myself can say two things: I just didn't have the time to write an essay of 2000+ words of whether Damp Rock is broken or not, simply because I have other real life issues and very limited access to internet from mondays to fridays; and that if I were able to just write "Ban Damp Rock please, cause it's broken" I'd do that. I believe it's safe for me to assume other people are on the same boat.
I really did plan voting this round of UU, so much that I tried to write some nominations, no matter how crappy they were, to have some embasement of what I should write about; but one week to write wasn't nearly the amount of time I think this should've taken (I'm not criticizing this short period for essays to be submitted; and am actually very thankful that I won't be playing on a tour filled with Cresselias [hopefully], even if I'm only there to lose. I do think though, that the stage should have lasted much less and the votings more).
Finally, I could write 2000+ words of how much I dislike the current voting system, and do think this needs to be changed; but due to this not being the "Rant about Smogon's tiering system" section, and because this has been brought up so many times; I won't be the one to start a riot.
I really did plan voting this round of UU, so much that I tried to write some nominations, no matter how crappy they were, to have some embasement of what I should write about; but one week to write wasn't nearly the amount of time I think this should've taken (I'm not criticizing this short period for essays to be submitted; and am actually very thankful that I won't be playing on a tour filled with Cresselias [hopefully], even if I'm only there to lose. I do think though, that the stage should have lasted much less and the votings more).
Finally, I could write 2000+ words of how much I dislike the current voting system, and do think this needs to be changed; but due to this not being the "Rant about Smogon's tiering system" section, and because this has been brought up so many times; I won't be the one to start a riot.
My Damp Rock statement was 712 words long... The paragraphs really are about getting all the points, not writing 2000+ words. For some people, yes, they generally "prefer" to write a lot (I wrote a lot more for a couple of the other suspects) but it doesn't seem completely unreasonable to be uncharacteristically concise. To be fair, though, the sheer number of suspects was ridiculous.
EDIT: Well, I guess it's time I changed I avatar and sig now...
EDIT: Well, I guess it's time I changed I avatar and sig now...