Maximum Upgrade

Pagoose said:
why is charizard x uber? I can't see anything new good moves except shift gear. Is that the only reason?
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yes, and shift gear makes it near impossible to run offense without thundy or strong priority. the extra speed lets it bypass scarf mons like lant, chomp, terrak, keld, and a few others that beat it normally. its extremely restricting for offense and makes stall a highly favorable playstyle, and its overcentralization led it to being banned
 
littlelucario said:
Making a temp. withdrawal from hibernation to say you should just add upgrades to the movepools.
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I think that's what we have decided on a while ago, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure if I updated the OP, but we are now adding the upgrades, rather than replacing the old moves
 
Cobalt314 said:
I think that's what we have decided on a while ago, if I'm not mistaken. I'm not sure if I updated the OP, but we are now adding the upgrades, rather than replacing the old moves
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Ok, thanks!

Also, I just wanted to point out that my bro, Lucario becomes a monster in this meta. Whatever swords dance turns into (hopefully Shell smash or similar move) can be used with a set of Close combat meteor mash and espeed to basically kill everything in sight.

Another change could be, Leaf storm>>>>>Seed Flare for obvious reasons.
 
Now that moves are being added to all Pokémon's movepools rather than being replaced, would this still be a pet mod? I mean, we're not adding moves on a case-by-case basis, but rather the moves the Pokémon already had determine the moves it will get, right?
 
Cobalt314 said:
Now that moves are being added to all Pokémon's movepools rather than being replaced, would this still be a pet mod? I mean, we're not adding moves on a case-by-case basis, but rather the moves the Pokémon already had determine the moves it will get, right?
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I think it is. You're still deciding basically subjectively which moves will cause the addition of which move. It's not like STABmons where you say if this is a Water type it gets all Water moves (Or for this if it gets a special water move, it gets all special water moves) You still strictly decide what's "outclassed", as some aren't actually completely outclassed and only few moves are actually completely outclassed. (Look at PP, Power, Accuracy, Effects, etc.)
 
I agree with the above. A lot of the upgrades are not strictly upgrades by any objective metric (Why do Sludge Bomb and Sludge Wave allow each other, anyway?) and other upgrades that could justify several different things go to one thing -ie Sharpen doesn't unlock all of Coil, Swords Dance, and Shift Gear, even though they're all strictly superior to it. It's still a Pet Mod, albeit simple compared to plenty of others.
 
Shouldn't Landorus (specifically Therian) be banned for the same reasons as MegaZard X? Seeing as it has Shift Gear coupled with STAB Thousand Waves, Diamond Storm, Close Combat and Crush Grip.
 
How is steam eruption something that leads to hydro pump?
better accuracy secondary effect and equivalent power And pp?
 
the someone said:
Shouldn't Landorus (specifically Therian) be banned for the same reasons as MegaZard X? Seeing as it has Shift Gear coupled with STAB Thousand Waves, Diamond Storm, Close Combat and Crush Grip.
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while therian has all of those moves, it does not have the sheer power and bulk of megazard X, and especially lacks the typing. Since ZardX has 78/111 physical bulk and it will be max investing in HP, it becomes almost impossible to revenge kille, and lant's 89/91 bulk isn't nearly as deadly. Just as notable is ZardX's access to reliable recovery, which furthermore allows it to shrug off all those attacks.
 
Cut, false swipe, hold back, horn attack, mega punch, payday, pound, scratch, slam, strength, tackle, vice grip-> extreme speed(Normal moves under base 80 with no secondary effects)

takedown->double edge
 
xJownage said:
while therian has all of those moves, it does not have the sheer power and bulk of megazard X, and especially lacks the typing. Since ZardX has 78/111 physical bulk and it will be max investing in HP, it becomes almost impossible to revenge kille, and lant's 89/91 bulk isn't nearly as deadly. Just as notable is ZardX's access to reliable recovery, which furthermore allows it to shrug off all those attacks.
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That's half true.
Ground/Flying isn't that bad of a typing offensively (if only Landorus had two STAB moves), and it's arguably better than Fire/Dragon defensively. It has 3 resistances, 2 immunities, 1 weakness and 1 double weakness. Fire/Dragon has 3 resistances, 2 double resistances and 3 weaknesses. Another thing is that Charizard takes 50% damage from SR before mega evolving, while Landorus takes 12.5%.
If you just compare Landorus's and MegaZard X's bulk, you won't notice Landorus's Intimidate. The main problem here is by far Intimidate, and the two immunities to a lesser extent. Landorus-Therian has way more switch-forcing power to let it set up. It's basically MegaMawile version 2. Let me show you an example (using Slaking here but any other Pokemon is valid):
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 234-276 (61.2 - 72.2%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 294-346 (81.6 - 96.1%)
Without Intimidate, MegaZard X is indeed bulkier.
252+ Atk Choice Band Slaking Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 349-412 (91.3 - 107.8%)
MegaZard X's bulk is also a little lower than Landorus's in the Sp. Att department.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 356-420 (93.1 - 109.9%)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Adaptability Porygon-Z Tri Attack vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 340-400 (94.4 - 111.1%)

Another important thing is that Landorus can hardly be revenge killed.
-1 252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Landorus-T: 316-376 (82.7 - 98.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
This is the strongest revenge-killing move against Landorus in the game, and full HP Landorus doesn't die to it after Intimidate.

Charizard does have recovery while Landorus doesn't, but Landorus can hold an item while Charizard can't. Both have 3 move types that give perfect coverage, but if Zard has Roost, then Azumarill (and Carbink) resist it's moves.

I guess it should be suspected at least.
 
the someone said:
(if only Landorus had two STAB moves)
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I just remembered about Fly not being upgraded, so now that Landoge has Brave Bird, will that be enough to put the banhammer on him?

EDIT: Wait, completely forgot about Dragon Ascent. I think that is enough Flying-type upgrades.
 
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Cobalt314 said:
I just remembered about Fly not being upgraded, so now that Landoge has Brave Bird, will that be enough to put the banhammer on him?

EDIT: Wait, completely forgot about Dragon Ascent. I think that is enough Flying-type upgrades.
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Probably. I mean, only Flying/Rock or /Steel or /Electric can resist Landorus's moves, and Diamond Storm hits two of those super-effectively.
Edit: Completely forgot about Thousand Waves. That + Flying is amazing coverage.
 
the someone said:
Probably. I mean, only Flying/Rock or /Steel or /Electric can resist Landorus's moves, and Diamond Storm hits two of those super-effectively.
Edit: Completely forgot about Thousand Waves. That + Flying is amazing coverage.
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AscentArrows will be the new EdgeQuake.
 
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I think the moves that are upgraded to Boomburst should also be upgraded to Techno Blast.
Chatter should be somewhere in the middle of the special Flying type moves.
Maybe the 3 elemental punches and fangs should be added somewhere.
Also:
Dragon Pulse -> Draco Meteor
Dragon Claw -> Outrage
Dark Pulse, Snarl -> Night Daze
 
Yeah I think lant might need banning at this point. Now that its just going to use arrows + ascent to beat everything, and there is not enough priority to consistently beat it.
 
Here are some upgrade ideas.
Barrage, Comet Punch, Double Slap, Fury Attack, Fury Swipes, Spike Cannon --> Tail Slap
Bind --> Wrap
Chip Away --> Sacred Sword
Feint --> Fake Out --> Extreme Speed
Flail --> Reversal
Most other physical Normal moves --> Head Charge --> Extreme Speed
All special Normal moves --> Judgment --> Techno Blast --> Boomburst
Flame Charge, Flame Wheel, Fire Fang, Fire Punch, Heat Crash --> Blaze Kick --> Sacred Fire --> Flare Blitz
All special Fire moves --> Searing Shot --> Blue Flare
Aqua Jet --> Water Shuriken
Aqua Tail, Razor Shell, Dive --> Waterfall --> Crabhammer
Water Pulse, Water Pledge, Surf, Hydro Pump --> Origin Pulse --> Steam Eruption
All physical Electric moves --> Fusion Bolt --> Volt Tackle --> Bolt Strike
All physical Grass moves --> Horn Leech --> Leaf Blade --> Wood Hammer --> Power Whip
All special Grass moves --> Giga Drain --> Energy Ball --> Seed Flare --> Leaf Storm
More later.
 
Poor Pidgeot doesn't have it's coverage fixed.
Heat Wave —> Fire Blast would allow Pidgeot to get the 130 BP perfect accuracy Blue Flare, so I guess that's ok.
Twister —> Dragon Pulse —> Draco Meteor would allow it to have another strong move, but it's just that.
 
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