Maximum Upgrade

Roar -> Whirlwind, because Roar is blocked by Soundproof and Whirlwind isn't.
Poison Powder -> Will-o-Wisp and/or Leech Seed. Burns do the same amount of damage as regular poison and half attack. Leech Seed does the same amount of damage as regular poison and heals you.
Hidden Power -> Judgment with all Pokemon keeping Hidden Power. May be overdoing it a bit.
Cobalt314 said:
  • Fairy Lock — Spider Web (Only non-Normal-type trapping move)
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Ghosts are immune to trapping anyway as of this Gen, so the type doesn't matter.
Upgrades will stack.
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So does this mean, for example, that if something got Scald that didn't get it before, like Lapras, it would also get Steam Eruption?
 
PokemonMasterDebater said:
Roar -> Whirlwind, because Roar is blocked by Soundproof and Whirlwind isn't.
Poison Powder -> Will-o-Wisp and/or Leech Seed. Burns do the same amount of damage as regular poison and half attack. Leech Seed does the same amount of damage as regular poison and heals you.
Hidden Power -> Judgment with all Pokemon keeping Hidden Power. May be overdoing it a bit.

Ghosts are immune to trapping anyway as of this Gen, so the type doesn't matter.
So does this mean, for example, that if something got Scald that didn't get it before, like Lapras, it would also get Steam Eruption?
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I feel like even though they do the same amount of damage plus attack/halving, I feel that they should also keep the poison powder as it affects different pokemon (i.e. poison powder fails on grass-types/overcoat, while willo fails against fire types)
 
PokemonMasterDebater said:
Roar -> Whirlwind, because Roar is blocked by Soundproof and Whirlwind isn't.
Poison Powder -> Will-o-Wisp and/or Leech Seed. Burns do the same amount of damage as regular poison and half attack. Leech Seed does the same amount of damage as regular poison and heals you.
Hidden Power -> Judgment with all Pokemon keeping Hidden Power. May be overdoing it a bit.

Ghosts are immune to trapping anyway as of this Gen, so the type doesn't matter.
So does this mean, for example, that if something got Scald that didn't get it before, like Lapras, it would also get Steam Eruption?
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I don't think Will-O-Wisp should replace Poison Powder, since conkeldurr would love to be burned. And besides, all Pokémon get access to Toxic.

And yes, that's why I said they will stack
 
brightobject said:
I feel like even though they do the same amount of damage plus attack/halving, I feel that they should also keep the poison powder as it affects different pokemon (i.e. poison powder fails on grass-types/overcoat, while willo fails against fire types)
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Regular poison is completely useless, since everything can learn Toxic. Poison Powder fails against Grass Types, Posion Types, Steel Types, and Overcoat/Safty Goggles users, where as Will-o-Wisp fails against Fire types and Water Veil users (and how often is Water Veil ever used in OU?). It hits way more things, isn't blocked by an item, and halves attack. I think we have a winner for better move/status.
Cobalt314 said:
I don't think Will-O-Wisp should replace Poison Powder, since conkeldurr would love to be burned. And besides, all Pokémon get access to Toxic.

And yes, that's why I said they will stack
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>Implying Guts users don't love normal poison just as much as burn.
 
PokemonMasterDebater said:
Regular poison is completely useless, since everything can learn Toxic. Poison Powder fails against Grass Types, Posion Types, Steel Types, and Overcoat/Safty Goggles users, where as Will-o-Wisp fails against Fire types and Water Veil users (and how often is Water Veil ever used in OU?). It hits way more things, isn't blocked by an item, and halves attack. I think we have a winner for better move/status.

>Implying Guts users don't love normal poison just as much as burn.
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Sorry, forgot that Guts activates from poison as well. I just don't think there is enough flavor to justify switching poison powder for Will-O-Wisp (and since Toxic is almost universally learned)
 
PokemonMasterDebater said:
Regular poison is completely useless, since everything can learn Toxic. Poison Powder fails against Grass Types, Posion Types, Steel Types, and Overcoat/Safty Goggles users, where as Will-o-Wisp fails against Fire types and Water Veil users (and how often is Water Veil ever used in OU?). It hits way more things, isn't blocked by an item, and halves attack. I think we have a winner for better move/status.

>Implying Guts users don't love normal poison just as much as burn.
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I'm more saying that for purely technical reasons, Will-O-Wisp is not an "upgrade" of PoisonPowder, as despite all of its advantages, it gains a disadvantage not present in the original.
^of course, some might disagree with this, but I believe that something like that (e.g. Brave Bird in the OP, and some other moves) do not fit the actual definition of an upgrade, that is, I would expect purely benefits from any "upgrade," (discounting things like PP and possibly accuracy).
 
Cobalt314 said:
Sorry, forgot that Guts activates from poison as well. I just don't think there is enough flavor to justify switching poison powder for Will-O-Wisp (and since Toxic is almost universally learned)
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Cobalt314 said:
In this metagame, we analyze every move available in the Pokémon universe, and if there exists another move that is better than the first in every respect (except maybe for accuracy), all Pokémon that learn the worse move forget it completely and instead learn the better move instead...
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Forgive me, but I didn't see any where in the OP where this was a flavor driven mod. In fact, if it is flavor driven, then you got some things to sort out.

  • Calm Mind — Quiver Dance
  • Quiver Dance — Geomancy
  • Agility, Dragon Dance > Shift Gear
  • Nasty Plot — Tail Glow
  • Barrier, Iron Defense — Cotton Guard (BTW Acid Armor should be here too)
  • Haze — Topsy-Turvy
  • Fairy Lock — Spider Web
And if you're just dead set against Will-O-Wisp, what about Leech Seed? Higher Accuracy, Drains HP, and effects Poison and Steel types, and Overcoat/Safety Goggles users.
 
PokemonMasterDebater said:
Forgive me, but I didn't see any where in the OP where this was a flavor driven mod. In fact, if it is flavor driven, then you got some things to sort out.

  • Calm Mind — Quiver Dance
  • Quiver Dance — Geomancy
  • Agility, Dragon Dance > Shift Gear
  • Nasty Plot — Tail Glow
  • Barrier, Iron Defense — Cotton Guard (BTW Acid Armor should be here too)
  • Haze — Topsy-Turvy
  • Fairy Lock — Spider Web
And if you're just dead set against Will-O-Wisp, what about Leech Seed? Higher Accuracy, Drains HP, and effects Poison and Steel types, and Overcoat/Safety Goggles users.
Click to expand...

I do agree with Leech Seed though :)
 
Sorry, ignore the flavor thing. I just don't see why a move that induces poison should be compared with a move that burns, or a move that leeches HP. All of the other upgrades seemed to have a lot more in common (aka, Fire-type moves that have a chance to inflict a burn or moves that raise attack, as well as defense)
 
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so here is the overcentralizing shit:

Shift Gear Mega Charizard X is just going to make hyper offensive playstyles unviable. Many teams rely on a scarfer or thundurus to take out mega charizard X, but with shift gear it can outspeed scarfers, and it can go for a second shift gear on thundy to get even stronger. Meanwhile sacred fire will do a similar thing, and i think that its burn chance MUST be decreased or it needs to go in general as it is extremely overcentralizing to fire types, since you must have one that can sponge status and beat those common fire users. Personally I would like to see sacred fire just not be one of the upgrades, as its just really overcentralizing and broken in all regards.

Mega Charizard X will need a quickban, and sacred fire shouldnt be an upgrade.

After that, I want to try shift gear mega aggron. base 140 attack is very underrated, and it could have an easy time getting to +2/+4 with its amazing bulk. Meanwhile it can easily shrug off priority moves with its massive base 230 defense, mono-steel typing, and filter. It meanwhile can easily run heavy slam to amazing effect with its massive weight, and very few things avoid the OHKO from that or its coverage moves at +2.

Shift gear diggersby will be good too, since it no longer has to run a double boosting set to win. It can even sacrifice a slot not to run quick attack, as it has plenty of speed with the boosts to clean teams. Many people will still want to run it for priority (to beat it), but if you can clear priority users this thing will be a monster.

Quiver Dance Landorus-I will be amazing as a stallbreaker. Just look at it. It can even run modest; after a speed boost it reaches a very high speed tier and can just make stall teams explode with a earth power / focus blast / sludge wave set. Meanwhile, its no longer dead weight against offense either; if you force a switch with it or can just tank a weak hit you can set up a quiver dance and put a nice hole in the opposing team.

Coil Kyu-B anybody?

On the topic of quiver dance, there are so many special sweepers now, unlike before. Now all these good mons get quiver dance, such as espeon, keldeo, mega gardevoir, KELDEO, AND KELDEO!!!!!!
and gengar, the latis, alakazam, and even mega amphy if thats your thing. A max physical bulk mega amph trying to get to +2 would actually be possible if amph is your favorite poke or something lol.
 
Brick Break>Drain Punch ( BB retained cuz screens )
Quick Attack>Extreme Speed
Roost>Recover and Recover>Roost
( keep both )
Stun Spore>Thunder Wave
Thunder Wave>Glare ( TW kept cuz Accuracy )
Focus Miss>Aura Sphere ( keep FB cuz more power )
Iron Tail>Iron Head ( keep IT cuz more power )
Dazzling Gleam>Moonblast
Charge Beam>Fiery Dance ( keep CB cuz typing )
Belly Drum>Swords Dance ( Keep BD cuz superior boost )
Brave Bird>Acrobatics ( Keep both )
Aqua Jet>Water Shuriken ( keep AJ cuz reliability )


Btw, is the meta approved?
Btw2, cool meta!

Some cool Pokemon:
Belly-Shuriken Azumarill, with Drain Punch
Earthquake anything
Moonblast Togekiss
Diamond Storm Tyranitar / Diggersby / Excadrill / Terrakion
Ice Beam / Quiver Dance Keldeo
Quiver Dance / Boomburst Sylveon
Well, I guess Shift Gear Pory-Z?
Forgot Gardy
Coil Meloetta ( gymmick warning )
Maybe better Quiver Dance now that has Boomburst
Spacial Rend Lati@s ( over Dragon Pulse
iciclele Crash / Knock Off Weavile ( IC over Ice Punch )
Belly Drum / Extreme Speed Diggersby )
Belly Drum / Extreme Speed Terrakion
Belly Drum / Extreme Speed anythingthatgeddit
Extreme Speed Pinsir-Mega
Water Shuriken Cloyster
Welcome to Stabmons 2.0!
 
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Quick bit on guard swap/power swap -> heart swap.

Good intention, not the idea. The idea behind those moves is to give the opponent your debuffs while keeping your other buffs. Eg weak armour skarmory using guard swap, giving the opponent a defence drop and retaining a speed boost, possibly even an attack boost if it used swords dance. Gimmicky as shit, but notable. Consider having those moves be retained in addition to heart swap?
 
Suggestions made in Bold
  • Synthesis/Moonlight/Morning Sun -> Slack Off/Heal Order/Milk Drink/Recover/Roost/Softboiled
  • Stun Spore/Thunderwave - Glare/Nuzzle (Moves retained, as they have purpose on other Pokemon.)
  • Block/Mean Look - Spider Web (Spider Web has superior PP.)
  • Refresh - Heal Bell/Aromatherapy (Refresh retained)
  • Guard Swap Skill Swap - Heart Swap (Both moves retained.)
  • Volt Tackle, Wild Charge, Fusion Bolt - Bolt Strike (All moves should be retained, as they have advantages over Bolt Strike.)

I also think rataining moves is redundant, as there's not much reason to remove them when they may have uses over their upgraded forms.
 
everything cool :)
Some retainment is stupid, some I agree with, some I just don't care about. PM me on showdown for battles pl0x cuz I want to play so baddddd

So here is some retardedly good shit:

Pinsir @ Pinsirite
Ability: Moxie
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 Def
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Close Combat
- Rock Slide

So this thing is amazing. By virtue of extremespeed, pinsir really no longer needs return, because its quick attacks, which net many KOs to begin with, gain twice as much power. Extreme Speed off of adamant 155 attack with aerilate along with a +2 boost is just really amazing. I am really looking forward to sweeping teams with this. Since it no longer needs two stabs, mega pinsir can now afford a slot for rock slide to help it cover flying types that resist espeed, such as zapdos. This means it can also beat thundurus and zapdos with ease, unlike in OU where its top two checks not named skarmory can no longer come in and beat it. Extremespeed also provides it virtue of beating talonflame, offense's best check outside of thundurus. Its sheer power can also allow it to run adamant nature, and that allows it to gain many more KOs with extreme speed.

Keldeo @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Quiver Dance
- Steam Eruption
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Flying]

Everybody Scream, the obligatory obliterator is here. For stall teams its simple; if it gets two quiver dances you lose. in fact, many stall teams can lose with just one. Keldeo's ability to continue boosting in the face of a check means it can be an absolutely brilliant stallbreaker with its sheer power alone, and it has good bulk to go with quiver dance's sdefensive boosts as well. Steam Eruption allows it to burn things randomly, making many pokes hesitate to switch in. HP flying is for the mega venusaur, and the grass types in general that do resist its stabs. This is the first mixed true sweeper I have seen in XY, as its ability to hit opponents on both sides of the spectrum can make it a massive threat.

Aggron @ Aggronite
Ability: Rock head --> Filter
Evs: 252 Atk / 212 Spd / 44 HP OR 252 Atk / 144 Spd / 112 HP
Adamant nature OR Jolly Nature
- Shift Gear
- Heavy Slam
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake

I am unsure of coverage, the EVs outspeed greninja at +2. Welcome to the ultimate bulky sweeper. Mega Aggron's massive physical bulk and great typing allow it to sweep bulky teams with ease, as by coming in on any physical attacker you can easily get a shift gear in, and possibly more than one. With Heavy Slam to spam, this thing will hit extremely hard. This is one of the first ideas I had when I saw the rock polish upgrade and while I am unsure of coverage or EVs I anticipate this thing being a really cool, fun maybe-gimmick maybe-good bulky sweeper.

Tyranitar @ Tyranitarite
Ability: Sand Stream
Evs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd (?) / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Shift Gear
- Diamond Storm
- Thousand Arrows / waves / earthquake
- Ice Punch / Fire Punch / Crunch

Mega Tyranitar has its biggest flaw on the DD set, its subpar speed, remedied by shift gear's larger boost on that. Diamond Storm is the obvious stab that can make tyranitar even more bulky mid sweep, and hits common flying types and stuff like that hard. Your ground stab is of choice, you can run thousand arrows or waves but skarmory is the reason to run thousand arrows to begin with. If you opt for another move you can chose fire punch in the last slot for skarm, but Ice Punch is the best option to kill lando and gliscor. In general one of the best win conditions in OU just got better.


PM me on showdown please, If i am online i will play you.
 
So, as I was looking through the thread, I realized that there are some Pokémon whose abilities have better alternatives, like Tough Claws —> Huge Power. Should we also upgrade abilities, or would that be overdoing it?
 
Tough claws things getting huge power = everybody run.
No, i think they are fine. This metagame is about upgrading moves, not everything, we aren't upgrading the pokemon themselves. We are upgrading them through their movepools.

Couple things i thought of.
Iron head changed to gear grind (?)
poison jab changed to gunk shot
 
Cobalt314 said:
So, as I was looking through the thread, I realized that there are some Pokémon whose abilities have better alternatives, like Tough Claws —> Huge Power. Should we also upgrade abilities, or would that be overdoing it?
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Maybe it could be done with some more minor changes, like Victory Star->Compoundeyes->No Guard, or Toxic Boost->Guts, perhaps even Iron Fist/Reckless->Tough Claws, but not things like Tough Claws->Huge Power, (which isn't really accurate anyway since Tough Claws boosts some Special attacks and doesn't boost some Physical attacks). We don't need Huge Power Shift Gear Mega Charizard X.
 
PokemonMasterDebater said:
Maybe it could be done with some more minor changes, like Victory Star->Compoundeyes->No Guard, or Toxic Boost->Guts, perhaps even Iron Fist/Reckless->Tough Claws, but not things like Tough Claws->Huge Power, (which isn't really accurate anyway since Tough Claws boosts some Special attacks and doesn't boost some Physical attacks). We don't need Huge Power Shift Gear Mega Charizard X.
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zardX is already banned for its extreme overcentralization in its shift gear sets, which forces every team to run something that can live a hit from it.
 
PokemonMasterDebater said:
Maybe it could be done with some more minor changes, like Victory Star->Compoundeyes->No Guard, or Toxic Boost->Guts, perhaps even Iron Fist/Reckless->Tough Claws, but not things like Tough Claws->Huge Power, (which isn't really accurate anyway since Tough Claws boosts some Special attacks and doesn't boost some Physical attacks). We don't need Huge Power Shift Gear Mega Charizard X.
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I don't think Compound Eyes can be compared to Victory Star and No Guard, since Victory Star boosts Allies by a smaller factor, while No Guard buffs the opponents' accuracies as well.
 
I honestly don't like upgrading the ability. It seems more difficult to also determine objectionably better abilities than it is for moves (that won't be too strong)


Oh! A few other moves.

Psyshock -> Psystrike (yay for signature moves)
Fire Spin -> Magma Storm (more signature moves!)

Also, a downgrade that most Pokemon might appreciate more:

Focus Blast -> Aura Sphere
 
also, you should just retain all old moves and make the new moves legal in battle just to make things easier. If people don't know its their problem, but removing old moves is really pointless, that way you also don't have to specify when old moves are still usable (for example, using thousand arrows over thousand waves).
 
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