Maximum Upgrade

Some possibilities that occurred to me that I didn't see (Or maybe didn't notice) in the original list or in later posts.

Protect>Spiky Shield. There is literally no disadvantage to Spiky Shield.

Arguably Play Rough>Light of Ruin.

Air Slash, Air Cutter, Gust>Aeroblast. (Or Oblivion Wing?)

Shadow Punch>Shadow Claw. It's a small thing, but there's No Guard/Klutz Golurk if nothing else.

Supersonic, Sweet Kiss>Confuse Ray.

Seed Bomb>Leaf Blade/Petal Blizzard.

Acid>Acid Spray? They lower different stats though.

Extrasensory>Psychic. Relevant to more Pokemon than you might think, though if you feel flinch-hax is superior this shouldn't count.

Arguably Ancient Power>Power Gem. Math-wise, if you used up all its PP every match, Ancient Power would activate less than once a match.

Metal Claw>Meteor Mash. Again, relevant to more Pokemon than you might think.

Aqua Tail>Crabhammer. No disadvantage at all.

Ingrain>Aqua Ring? Ingrain prevents the enemy from forcibly switching you, but is otherwise the same thing but worse.
 
Ghoul King said:
Some possibilities that occurred to me that I didn't see (Or maybe didn't notice) in the original list or in later posts.

Protect>Spiky Shield. There is literally no disadvantage to Spiky Shield.

Arguably Play Rough>Light of Ruin.

Air Slash, Air Cutter, Gust>Aeroblast. (Or Oblivion Wing?)

Shadow Punch>Shadow Claw. It's a small thing, but there's No Guard/Klutz Golurk if nothing else.

Supersonic, Sweet Kiss>Confuse Ray.

Seed Bomb>Leaf Blade/Petal Blizzard.

Acid>Acid Spray? They lower different stats though.

Extrasensory>Psychic. Relevant to more Pokemon than you might think, though if you feel flinch-hax is superior this shouldn't count.

Arguably Ancient Power>Power Gem. Math-wise, if you used up all its PP every match, Ancient Power would activate less than once a match.

Metal Claw>Meteor Mash. Again, relevant to more Pokemon than you might think.

Aqua Tail>Crabhammer. No disadvantage at all.

Ingrain>Aqua Ring? Ingrain prevents the enemy from forcibly switching you, but is otherwise the same thing but worse.
Click to expand...
Light of ruin is special while play rough is physical
 
Thanks for all of the upgrades! Now that a sufficient number of upgrades have been implemented, I think it's time to discuss some possible threats. A few that came to my mind are Technician Gear Grind Mega Scizor, Spore Whimsicott, and Boomburst Mega Gardevoir, but I want to hear what you guys think.

Btw, if you find any more upgrades, don't hesitate to post them.
 
xJownage said:
so here is the overcentralizing shit:

Shift Gear Mega Charizard X is just going to make hyper offensive playstyles unviable. Many teams rely on a scarfer or thundurus to take out mega charizard X, but with shift gear it can outspeed scarfers, and it can go for a second shift gear on thundy to get even stronger. Meanwhile sacred fire will do a similar thing, and i think that its burn chance MUST be decreased or it needs to go in general as it is extremely overcentralizing to fire types, since you must have one that can sponge status and beat those common fire users. Personally I would like to see sacred fire just not be one of the upgrades, as its just really overcentralizing and broken in all regards.

Mega Charizard X will need a quickban, and sacred fire shouldnt be an upgrade.

After that, I want to try shift gear mega aggron. base 140 attack is very underrated, and it could have an easy time getting to +2/+4 with its amazing bulk. Meanwhile it can easily shrug off priority moves with its massive base 230 defense, mono-steel typing, and filter. It meanwhile can easily run heavy slam to amazing effect with its massive weight, and very few things avoid the OHKO from that or its coverage moves at +2.

Shift gear diggersby will be good too, since it no longer has to run a double boosting set to win. It can even sacrifice a slot not to run quick attack, as it has plenty of speed with the boosts to clean teams. Many people will still want to run it for priority (to beat it), but if you can clear priority users this thing will be a monster.

Quiver Dance Landorus-I will be amazing as a stallbreaker. Just look at it. It can even run modest; after a speed boost it reaches a very high speed tier and can just make stall teams explode with a earth power / focus blast / sludge wave set. Meanwhile, its no longer dead weight against offense either; if you force a switch with it or can just tank a weak hit you can set up a quiver dance and put a nice hole in the opposing team.

Coil Kyu-B anybody?

On the topic of quiver dance, there are so many special sweepers now, unlike before. Now all these good mons get quiver dance, such as espeon, keldeo, mega gardevoir, KELDEO, AND KELDEO!!!!!!
and gengar, the latis, alakazam, and even mega amphy if thats your thing. A max physical bulk mega amph trying to get to +2 would actually be possible if amph is your favorite poke or something lol.
Click to expand...
Quiver dance mega garde is just going to be ridiculous. It will need a quickban too. So many things will need quickbans tbh idk how this meta will ever get played.
 
Ghoul King said:
Some possibilities that occurred to me that I didn't see (Or maybe didn't notice) in the original list or in later posts.

Protect>Spiky Shield. There is literally no disadvantage to Spiky Shield.

Arguably Play Rough>Light of Ruin.

Air Slash, Air Cutter, Gust>Aeroblast. (Or Oblivion Wing?)

Shadow Punch>Shadow Claw. It's a small thing, but there's No Guard/Klutz Golurk if nothing else.

Supersonic, Sweet Kiss>Confuse Ray.

Seed Bomb>Leaf Blade/Petal Blizzard.

Acid>Acid Spray? They lower different stats though.

Extrasensory>Psychic. Relevant to more Pokemon than you might think, though if you feel flinch-hax is superior this shouldn't count.

Arguably Ancient Power>Power Gem. Math-wise, if you used up all its PP every match, Ancient Power would activate less than once a match.

Metal Claw>Meteor Mash. Again, relevant to more Pokemon than you might think.

Aqua Tail>Crabhammer. No disadvantage at all.

Ingrain>Aqua Ring? Ingrain prevents the enemy from forcibly switching you, but is otherwise the same thing but worse.
Click to expand...

Protect to Spiky Shield is a side-grade. Spiky Shield (and King's Shield) don't protect against statuses.

And Ingrain was more useful for avoiding Whirlwind and Roar with Baton Pass teams...to be honest though you barely see either outside of Baton Pass teams
 
Mew King said:
Protect to Spiky Shield is a side-grade. Spiky Shield (and King's Shield) don't protect against statuses.

And Ingrain was more useful for avoiding Whirlwind and Roar with Baton Pass teams...to be honest though you barely see either outside of Baton Pass teams
Click to expand...

Spiky Shield does protect against statuses. King's Shield does not.
 
Throbulator36 said:
Light of ruin is special while play rough is physical
Click to expand...

Whoops. I should know that, having abused it in Alphabetmons once upon a time.

Some others that have occurred to me, mostly not clear-cut improvements but worth mentioning.

Work Up>Growth. (Because Growth is better in Sun, and never worse)

One stage Defense boosters (eg Harden)>Defense Curl. If they have Ice Ball or Rollout, it's better. Whether it fits to the meta's intentions I dunno.

Lovely Kiss should be listed as another thing that gives you Spore. Jynx says thank you.

Cotton Spore>Scary Face? Grass types are immune to Cotton Spore but not Scary Face.

Detect>Spiky Shield. (More PP) A technicality, since no Pokemon can learn Detect but not Protect, but I'd list it to try to stop questions.

Misty Terrain>Safeguard? Misty Terrain weakens Dragon moves off grounded targets, but it also can fail to protect your side and can protect the enemies. Aromatisse, Mawile, and Xerneas are the only Pokemon that would care though.

Swallow>Recover/Milk Drink/whatever? Since Stockpile>Cosmic Power is already a thing.

Charge>Amnesia or Quiver Dance? It also doubles the strength of your next Electric attack, so it's not a 100% improvement.

Yawn>Spore? I imagine some people feel Yawn isn't strictly worse than insta-sleep though.

Growl>Feather Dance or Charm? It's not a straight improvement in Doubles/Triples though.

Growl>Play Nice. In Singles, Play Nice is Growl, but much harder to block.

Noble Roar>Parting Shot. I suppose one might appreciate being able to stay in and spam Noble Roar instead, but usually stat-down-and-switch is vastly superior, and Pyroar is in a much better position than Pangoro to use the effect, speed-wise.

Metal Sound>Fake Tears. Now Soundproof users aren't immune and you can't miss!

Refresh>Psycho Shift? Arguable, since it fails in all kinds of circumstances Refresh succeeds in eg if the enemy is already afflicted with something.

Moves that lower evasion>Telekinesis? Very very debatable, but worth mentioning.

Stuff>Shell Smash? I only mention it at all because you're listing Geomancy as an upgrade to Quiver Dance.

Haze>Topsy Turvy? It's not a strict upgrade, but in some ways is the same thing but better.

Oh and strictly the 'defensive moves' category really should be 'status moves'. That threw me for a while because I was expecting to find Dragon Dance in 'offensive moves' and maybe find, like, Scald or something in 'defensive moves'.
 
Last edited:
Cool meta! Really good idea, I look forward to watching some battles.

Ghoul King said:
Noble Roar>Parting Shot. I suppose one might appreciate being able to stay in and spam Noble Roar instead, but usually stat-down-and-switch is vastly superior, and Pyroar is in a much better position than Pangoro to use the effect, speed-wise.
Click to expand...

This one made me think: how about all one-stage attack or defense lowering moves (growl, leer, etc) --> Parting Shot? It strikes me as a direct upgrade, unless you want to stay in and spam Growl... For some reason..

EDIT: Sableye would get Parting Shot (along with most of the meta). Just an observation.

EDITEDIT: wait, Parting shot is lowered attack and special attack, not attack and defense. Still, I think Sableye would still get it.
 
Last edited:
Parting Shot doesn't lower Defense. Tickle does though.

As far as 'upgrading' Abilities, there's an extremely limited number of cases where one Ability clearly invalidates another, and even a lot of Abilities you'd think were straight upgrades (Early Bird>Insomnia/Vital Spirit) aren't really. (Early Bird can Rest and saves time, where Insomnia and Vital Spirit block Resting outright)

Hyper Cutter, Big Pecks, and any other 'does not lose stat' Abilities I'm forgetting except Keen Eye (It ignores the foes Evasion) are directly invalidated by Clear Body/White Smoke.

Heatproof is on the face of it a bad Thick Fat, but it also reduces Burn damage!

Shadow Tag is directly superior to Arena Trap and Magnet Pull.

Dry Skin is kind of like squishing together Rain Dish and Water Absorb, except it does pack disadvantages.

In Singles, Compound Eyes is directly superior to Victory Star.

Guts is flatly superior to Toxic Boost of course.

Shield Dust is weird: it's basically super Inner Focus, and super Magma Armor too, since Freeze and Flinch are always secondary effects.

Huge Power, Pure Power, and Parental Bond all invalidate Hustle, Strong Jaw, and Iron Fist.

I'm pretty sure that, even in Doubles and Triples, Tough Claws is invalidated by Parental Bond. I don't think there's any multi-target contact moves.

Aroma Veil is super-Oblivious.

Magic Guard invalidates Rock Head, sadly.

Download and Adaptability are basically invalided by Parental Bond. (Less so in Doubles and Triples) So are all the 'in a pinch' Abilities like Overgrow. Also, Rivalry, Reckless, Sand Force, Mega Launcher and Analytic. In Singles play Dark Aura and Fairy Aura are also invalidated by Parental Bond.

For most purposes Immunity is inferior to Magic Guard and Poison Heal. The distinction matters when people suppress or alter your Ability, though.

Wonder Skin is basically a bad Magic Bounce.

Oddly, Defiant is basically super-Hyper Cutter, because currently nothing lowers Attack by more than two stages.

Any other case might be something one would tend to feel is better (Water Veil is crap and I'd rather have Magic Guard, Guts, or Shield Dust) but aren't strict improvements or very close.

Basically I don't think 'upgrading' Abilities is a good idea unless you want Parental Bond: The Movie The Metagame. Which would be neat in some ways, but I suspect it's drifting a bit away from the intent here.
 
Last edited:
Fair enough, though I was more trying to save other people work than make a definitive list anyway. (And also just point out that, seriously, Parental Bond: The Metagame)

I should also add that, strictly speaking, one could argue that 'empty' Abilities like Illuminate could be replaced with just about anything. (The clever thing would be Mummy, at least to my mind) Negative Abilities are odd, because on the one hand we have Entrainment Durant useful because Truant is garbage, and on the other hand Archeops, Regigigas, and Slaking would always and forever rather have a different, non-negative Ability, even uselessness like Illuminate.

One more move point that's occurred to me: what about various physical Normal moves with no disadvantage? Do they all upgrade into Body Slam? Maybe Crush Grip? Crush Grip in particular would give Mega Pinsir a superior alternative to Return/Frustration for most purposes. Anything whose current HP is so low the move's damage is crap is probably something you can Quick Attack or Feint away.

It's also occurred to me: it would be really really dumb, but are we counting Hidden Power here? Because if so suddenly everything has Power Gem, Sludge Bomb, Flash Cannon etc etc etc. Or I guess one could say Hidden Power>Judgment to remain in the spirit of Hidden Power: you can have any type you want freely, but not two of them at once from this effect. Suddenly everything can have any Special coverage it likes, so long as it's willing to sacrifice its item slot!
 
Last edited:
With what I've been seeing in the last few posts, a few people would like me to go ahead and upgrade abilities too. However, before making anything final, I was wondering if we should replace the old ability with the new ability, retaining the Pokémon's original number of abilities, or whether we should add the ability on to its current list, just like with the moves? What do you guys think?
 
oh god please no. I and several others expressed the lack of warrant to upgrade abilities, as while it fits flavor wise it just doesn't make much sense to make uniform changes to all 'mons abilities regardless of what they are.
 
xJownage said:
oh god please no. I and several others expressed the lack of warrant to upgrade abilities, as while it fits flavor wise it just doesn't make much sense to make uniform changes to all 'mons abilities regardless of what they are.
Click to expand...
not to mention how awful it would be flavor-wise, but I'm pretty sure flavor is out the window in this metagame
 
The problem is we're going to make a lot of Pokemon EXTREMELY broken. It's going to be ALL offense in this case. And it'll make the Metagame centralized along those Pokemon that have had like originally Tough Claws, Iron Fist, or other powers.
 
My main concern is that, where upgrading moves helps bring a lot of Pokemon with lackluster movepools into consideration for use or patches up obnoxious holes (Hooray for Gyarados with access to a real physical Dark move!) without really raising the peak performance of many already great Pokemon because they usually have excellent movepools anyway, Abilities are more prone in normal design to either being really good Abilities on otherwise lackluster Pokemon that produces an interesting result (Huge Power Azumarill only has 50 base Attack before the Ability) or being mediocre or actively bad Abilities that are useful but avoid making an already great Pokemon ridiculous. Only a few Pokemon are 'really good before Ability with a great Ability', like Dragonite's Multiscale. (Which mostly serves to make its Ice weakness more bearable) The main exceptions are Mega Evolutions, who are having to give up their item slot and compete with each other besides, and some of them still fall into this pattern: Mega Mawile is leaning heavily on Huge Power to be able to take Mawile from 'crap Pokemon' to 'usable and in fact great', and this can be contrasted against Mega Charizard X, where Charizard is already a solid Pokemon and has been forever, and Tough Claws is a nice Ability but nothing amazing.

So upgrading Abilities tends to make great Pokemon even better and do little or nothing for more mediocre Pokemon. If you want to make the best better and more clearly leave everything else in the dust, reducing the variety and depth of the experience, then go for it. But if you would like a meta that is varied and interesting in its own right, upgrading Abilities in this way seems the wrong direction to me.
 
Lets not do abilities, because you end up with Parental bond everywhere. If we did allow them this is how much coverage Parental Bond (and Huge/Pure Power) would get

  • Serene Grace -> Parental Bond
  • Sheer Force, Mega Launcher, Iron Fist, Tough Claws, Guts, Toxic Boost, Hustle, Flare Boost, Solar Power, Blaze, Overgrowth, Torrent, Minus, Plus, Swarm, Technician, Strong Jaw, Analytic, Sand Force, Fairy Aura, Dark Aura, Reckless, Rivalry -> Parental Bond
  • Iron Fist, Tough Claws, Guts, Toxic Boost, Hustle, Strong Jaw, Reckless -> Pure Power or Huge Power (These are abilities that boost mainly physical moves)
Yea, it's pretty insane. The logic between the moves is that abilities that increase damage output get replaced by Parental Bond unless they provide a boost higher than 1.5x (Huge / Pure Power) or the boost isn't the primary function of the ability (Flash Fire). To determine Huge/Pure Power, you simply grab those that turn into Parental Bond and choose those that primarily boost physical moves (Reckless) or boost attack (Hustle). I know that Reckless and Tough Claws technically boost like 1 non-physical move (Light or Ruin and Grass Knot), but all of the other moves it boosts are all physical, and were clearly meant to boost physical attacker's powers. Serene Grace gets turned into Parental Bond since hitting 2 times will inherently increase secondary effect chance. So yeah, let's not boost abilities.
 
There's 6 different contact Special moves (Albeit one is unaffected by Tough Claws anyway), Guts makes you immune to Burn's Attack drop (The fact that Parental Bond doesn't is one of the few 'weaknesses' of Mega Kangaskhan), and Serene Grace is not actually invalidated by Parental Bond because while it's way better for some moves (Power Up Punch) and is generally loosely equivalent in chance increase, it's flatly worse when it comes to anything that can succeed once and has a 50% or higher chance. (Sacred Fire, Poison Fang)

I'm pained to realize it never crossed my mind that Solar Power also sucks compared to Parental Bond though.

But everything else you listed as ->Parental Bond is absolutely true and that's a ton. And that's even though you missed Adaptability.
 
The Reptile said:
Lets not do abilities, because you end up with Parental bond everywhere. If we did allow them this is how much coverage Parental Bond (and Huge/Pure Power) would get

  • Serene Grace -> Parental Bond
  • Sheer Force, Mega Launcher, Iron Fist, Tough Claws, Guts, Toxic Boost, Hustle, Flare Boost, Solar Power, Blaze, Overgrowth, Torrent, Minus, Plus, Swarm, Technician, Strong Jaw, Analytic, Sand Force, Fairy Aura, Dark Aura, Reckless, Rivalry -> Parental Bond
  • Iron Fist, Tough Claws, Guts, Toxic Boost, Hustle, Strong Jaw, Reckless -> Pure Power or Huge Power (These are abilities that boost mainly physical moves)
Yea, it's pretty insane. The logic between the moves is that abilities that increase damage output get replaced by Parental Bond unless they provide a boost higher than 1.5x (Huge / Pure Power) or the boost isn't the primary function of the ability (Flash Fire). To determine Huge/Pure Power, you simply grab those that turn into Parental Bond and choose those that primarily boost physical moves (Reckless) or boost attack (Hustle). I know that Reckless and Tough Claws technically boost like 1 non-physical move (Light or Ruin and Grass Knot), but all of the other moves it boosts are all physical, and were clearly meant to boost physical attacker's powers. Serene Grace gets turned into Parental Bond since hitting 2 times will inherently increase secondary effect chance. So yeah, let's not boost abilities.
Click to expand...
Tough Claws increases the damage of Grass Knot
Just saying c:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top