Yeah; it's not as fantastic as I thought it would be from seeing its BST and movepool. I think it's waiting for a few things to leave before it can shine, and its typing gives it some neat SI opportunities.
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Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread
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Yeah; it's not as fantastic as I thought it would be from seeing its BST and movepool. I think it's waiting for a few things to leave before it can shine, and its typing gives it some neat SI opportunities.
I've tested SD Kartana a bit and with webs up, it becomes nearly impossible to handle after it sets up and/or gets a kill. If you can manage to get a Swords Dance off, you can OHKO nearly every offensive mon and a lot of defensive mons, and some resists get OHKOed/2HKOed through their resists anyway after SD+Beast Boost. I haven't tried out Banded Kartana yet, but I plan to.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marowak: 226-265 (86.5 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 172-203 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 263-309 (86.5 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 343-406 (79.3 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 186-220 (55.6 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I've been using lead Smeargle for Webs+Rocks. One fun play you can make is to set up hazards, die, and get Kartana in on their hazard removal. SD on the Defog/Rapid Spin and collect your kill. And once you do get that kill, you boost up to +3 attack, which is even harder to deal with. If webs are up, the only thing revenging Kartana is Life Orb recoil+priority and fast flyers, which are far and few between. It's basically just Tornadus at this point.
Beast Boost, for me, is what pushed the UBs over the edge. It enables boosting sets to get stronger and stronger without having to take a turn to boost, and it enables scarf sets to get stronger every time you revenge kill something. I can't see Pheromosa, Kartana, or Xurkitree staying very long. Not sure yet about the other four.
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Marowak: 226-265 (86.5 - 101.5%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 172-203 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 263-309 (86.5 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Amoonguss: 343-406 (79.3 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 186-220 (55.6 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I've been using lead Smeargle for Webs+Rocks. One fun play you can make is to set up hazards, die, and get Kartana in on their hazard removal. SD on the Defog/Rapid Spin and collect your kill. And once you do get that kill, you boost up to +3 attack, which is even harder to deal with. If webs are up, the only thing revenging Kartana is Life Orb recoil+priority and fast flyers, which are far and few between. It's basically just Tornadus at this point.
Beast Boost, for me, is what pushed the UBs over the edge. It enables boosting sets to get stronger and stronger without having to take a turn to boost, and it enables scarf sets to get stronger every time you revenge kill something. I can't see Pheromosa, Kartana, or Xurkitree staying very long. Not sure yet about the other four.
Just wanna give my observations on a mon which I feel is performing real well in this metagame:
Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch / Bullet Punch / Rock Polish
Mega Metagross has been putting in a ton of work from the games I have been playing. It's main draw is just its giant natural bulk along with its great breaking power being greatly appreciated. It can take a number of hits and outspeed a great portion of the meta and threaten it with its phenomenal coverage. And while it can't take hits from the stronger attackers any more than once (Pheromosa/Tapu Koko which don't OHKO, but remember Metagross doesn't have recovery), it has the bulk to take a hit and dish back a strong hit which can be very beneficial for the team. STAB's are great to take on numerous Fairy types and Fighting types which are present in the meta (Also greatly threatens Toxapex which is nice). Earthquake is basically mandatory if you want any way of hitting Aegislash, and the last slot depends on the team. Ice Punch is nice for coverage, but Bullet Punch threatens weakened Pheromosa's. Rock Polish is also insanely threatening for a ton of teams to deal with (You're also able to run a bulkier Adamant spread with Metagross if you choose to run Rock Polish to give you even better bulk). Overall, I think Mega Meta is one of the best mons in the meta at the moment and has a lot of positive qualities to it which lets it thrive.
Metagross @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Earthquake
- Ice Punch / Bullet Punch / Rock Polish
Mega Metagross has been putting in a ton of work from the games I have been playing. It's main draw is just its giant natural bulk along with its great breaking power being greatly appreciated. It can take a number of hits and outspeed a great portion of the meta and threaten it with its phenomenal coverage. And while it can't take hits from the stronger attackers any more than once (Pheromosa/Tapu Koko which don't OHKO, but remember Metagross doesn't have recovery), it has the bulk to take a hit and dish back a strong hit which can be very beneficial for the team. STAB's are great to take on numerous Fairy types and Fighting types which are present in the meta (Also greatly threatens Toxapex which is nice). Earthquake is basically mandatory if you want any way of hitting Aegislash, and the last slot depends on the team. Ice Punch is nice for coverage, but Bullet Punch threatens weakened Pheromosa's. Rock Polish is also insanely threatening for a ton of teams to deal with (You're also able to run a bulkier Adamant spread with Metagross if you choose to run Rock Polish to give you even better bulk). Overall, I think Mega Meta is one of the best mons in the meta at the moment and has a lot of positive qualities to it which lets it thrive.
252 SpA Life Orb Tapu Koko Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Metagross in Electric Terrain: 214-253 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 200-238 (66.4 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 198-234 (69.9 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 237-280 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 124-148 (38.2 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 306-362 (94.4 - 111.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 102-122 (33.8 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Pheromosa High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 200-238 (66.4 - 79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pheromosa: 198-234 (69.9 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 237-280 (84.3 - 99.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 124-148 (38.2 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Metagross Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Blade: 306-362 (94.4 - 111.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Metagross: 102-122 (33.8 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 198-234 (65.1 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Sorry for being uninformed, but are we sure that there are mega stones that can't be found anywhere in game, like at all? Apparently we can't even use them after pokebank, do you think that could change after it updates?
Mega Khangaskhan (how in the fuck do you spell that) still has double Seismic Toss as well as PuP shenanigans. Big nerf, but still probablly a bit too much.
Mega Salamence is just lol. The fucker was on the same level as freaking Arceus last gen, and a 12/13 power reduction doesn't change that. It's still fast as hell, bulkier than some walls, and can ruin like ninety percent of the meta with one turn of setup, which it gets for free because it still hits like a truck off the bat.
Also, this isn't relevant to much right now, but Aegislash is one of the most baffling design decisions by GameFreak in the past three gens, right after the Genies. At least they had the decency to regret Talonflame.
Mega Salamence is just lol. The fucker was on the same level as freaking Arceus last gen, and a 12/13 power reduction doesn't change that. It's still fast as hell, bulkier than some walls, and can ruin like ninety percent of the meta with one turn of setup, which it gets for free because it still hits like a truck off the bat.
Also, this isn't relevant to much right now, but Aegislash is one of the most baffling design decisions by GameFreak in the past three gens, right after the Genies. At least they had the decency to regret Talonflame.
There is no way mega salamence is gonna get retested. Despite the -ate nerf (which is honestly insignificant, x1.2 is still a considerable boost) mega mence still retain the absurd bulk to setup on virtually anything that doesnt have an ice move. That plus being literally impossible to revenge kill after a single boost (HAH, scarf greninja!) Yeah, no, no way that should be allowed to happen.
The Parental Bond nerf doesnt even guarantee a retest in my eyes. The second attack on parental bond still have the secondary effects so stuff like power up punch still work on it, giving it a free +2 boost, crunch still has a bigger shot at lowering defense. Even silly stuff like doubl seismic toss can still be somewhat unbearable, even special sets so yeah... no.
Lets try to make the metagame settle instead of re-introducing threats just because they got "nerfed" when in practice this doesnt deter how crazy this Pokemon could be.
The Parental Bond nerf doesnt even guarantee a retest in my eyes. The second attack on parental bond still have the secondary effects so stuff like power up punch still work on it, giving it a free +2 boost, crunch still has a bigger shot at lowering defense. Even silly stuff like doubl seismic toss can still be somewhat unbearable, even special sets so yeah... no.
Lets try to make the metagame settle instead of re-introducing threats just because they got "nerfed" when in practice this doesnt deter how crazy this Pokemon could be.
It's like Mega Durant. Base 109 speed and sky-high Attack hurt by zero special bulk and (most importantly, I think) low Base Power moves.
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+1 252 Atk Life Orb Kartana Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Landorus-T: 286-339 (74.8 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
You know, I actually thought something was wrong with the calc at first. But nope, it really does hit that hard.
Tbh, Smart Strike is just bad. I'd rather use Return on SD because the neutral coverage of Grass/Fighting/Normal is better than with Steel over Normal. Defensive Zapdos, for example, walls the former set, but it gets blown away by +2 Return.
You know, I actually thought something was wrong with the calc at first. But nope, it really does hit that hard.
Tbh, Smart Strike is just bad. I'd rather use Return on SD because the neutral coverage of Grass/Fighting/Normal is better than with Steel over Normal. Defensive Zapdos, for example, walls the former set, but it gets blown away by +2 Return.
I ve been using this gastrodon set to check a lot of different specially based threats in the meta: electric Topu, greninja(water ice in general), fire types.its pretty beast, but grass knot/energy ball topu and hp grass random electrics ruin you, so be mindful of that. this thing is surprisingly bulky, just try to avoid strong unresisted phis. moves. what u think about it?
Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 112 HP / 84 Def / 168 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic
- Recover
- Clear Smo
Edit: im running Topu Bulo on my team, so grassy terrain helps it even further
Gastrodon @ Leftovers
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 112 HP / 84 Def / 168 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Toxic
- Recover
- Clear Smo
Edit: im running Topu Bulo on my team, so grassy terrain helps it even further
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 100 SpA / 144 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute
- Toxic
- King's Shield
I've been using this Aegislash set a reasonable amount and I'm really liking it so far, with me going as far as saying that I think it's the best variant of SubToxic Aegislash. The listed EV spread+a timid nature creeps 8 Spe Rotom-W to sub on its Wisp while doubling up as a way to sub safely vs. adamant Crawdaunt who try to SD on you, which is nice because even with the burn nerf SubToxic Aegislash is very heavily hampered by losing its Leftovers recovery. I wanted to preserve its bulk so that it could actually keep subs up against stuff so I've just taken it out of SpA because it hits plenty hard anyway so I'd rather sacrifice that rather than compromising bulk. Timid Aegislash attains 5 more points in SpA than the equivalent modest spread attains (see below) so yeah that's why I'm timid rather than modest. Anyway, while I don't think I need to explain how SubToxic Aegislash works given that everyone and their mum has used it at this point, the cool thing about this EV spread is that a lot of people don't expect people to carry speed on Aegislash. As such they get really caught off-guard when I move before their >base 60 'mon--which lets me get off surprise Subs, Shadow Balls and Toxics which have come into play a few times already. Key things this beats out include uninvested Mega Scizor (letting you scout for Knock Off without risking a free SD) and, of course, Rotom-W. All in all its a super nice set that you should totally try out. If you want to Sub up on jolly Crawdaunt to avoid irritating King's Shield mindgames then a spread of 252 HP / 12 Def / 28 SpA / 216 Spe timid beats that, which is also a nice spread if you don't mind sacrificing a lot of firepower, while max timid (without the 12 defense EVs that provide ensurance vs. adamant Lando-T) subs on neutral base 70s such as Breloom.
Modest is most definitely better than Timid. As soon as Aegislash switches into Blade Forme, it recalculates your stats on the spot and uses those for the damage step. 100 SAtk Timid would hence give you 361 Special Attack, whereas 24 SAtk Modest would give you 376 Special Attack, a whole 15 points, even if it seems the other way around while its Special Attack is that low in the teambuilder. And since Aegislash's Special Attack in Shield Forme just straight up doesn't matter, Modest is simply a lot better. Just figured I'd point that out.
I also think SubToxic Aegislash should honestly just run 248 HP / 244 SAtk / 16 Speed Modest because I think SubToxic does just fine being slower than Rotom (I probably wouldn't necessarily stay in anyway especially with how easy burn is to handle in this Generation), and the extra damage matters a lot vs stuff that "tries" (and fails) to shut you down such as Celesteela and Toxapex.
I also think SubToxic Aegislash should honestly just run 248 HP / 244 SAtk / 16 Speed Modest because I think SubToxic does just fine being slower than Rotom (I probably wouldn't necessarily stay in anyway especially with how easy burn is to handle in this Generation), and the extra damage matters a lot vs stuff that "tries" (and fails) to shut you down such as Celesteela and Toxapex.
Pelipper @ Choice Specs
Ability: Drizzle
EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
Modest Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Hurricane
- U-turn
- Scald / HP Electric / Knock Off
Here's something I've been trying out for fun. This set might seem a little silly at first but no joke, Specs Pelipper is an extremely dangerous attacker which can put in some serious work vs balanced teams. The
STAB combination of rain boosted Hydro Pump and 100% accurate Hurricane gets absolutely fantastic neutral coverage and flat out OHKOs/2HKOs about 99% of the metagame. Since you'll be clicking either one of these moves the majority of the time, the other moves are basically filler. The EV spread lets Pelipper reach 220 Speed, which is enough to outrun all common variants of Rotom-W.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W in Rain: 168-198 (55.4 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield in Rain: 252-297 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela in Rain: 255-301 (64 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey in Rain: 274-324 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Eviolite knocked off)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mega Venusaur: 360-426 (99.1 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 211-249 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mantine: 178-210 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 181-214 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash-Shield in Rain: 252-297 (77.7 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Celesteela in Rain: 255-301 (64 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Chansey in Rain: 274-324 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Eviolite knocked off)
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Mega Venusaur: 360-426 (99.1 - 117.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Suicune: 211-249 (52.2 - 61.6%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mantine: 178-210 (53.2 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 181-214 (51.4 - 60.7%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
christ im fucking up all over the shop today, its just not my day I guess. forgetting to account for the forme change, forgetting to modify abilities in the damage calc. Nice catch there. *sighs at having spent all day using a suboptimal spread over smth silly*
Anyway yeah enough of that excuse-making by me; thinking about it a bit more I agree with your line of logic regarding the SpA and will admit that hadn't properly taken that into consideration, but the key thing that makes a faster spread appealing at least for me is less that Rotom thing--which was more of a nice catch-all benchmark with a nice side effect rather than anything--so much as it's ability to catch a lot of people off-guard when they think they're going to outpace but don't. I guess you could maybe go for a middle ground with the HP/SpA investment (maybe a sub hit? idk i've got some messing around to do in the calc when I can find some time 'cause fast Aegi's fun anyway; meta's still new and I doubt Aegi has long left so its now or never) to improve the matchup vs. these things on teams that appreciate it. In hindsight though yeah you probably are better with the max HP spread, but I still think that it's worth messing around a lot with spreads and stuff to see what works rather than just always going max HP or whatever without checking stuff. Fast Aegi is generally pretty un-explored+i like being able to set up sub reasonably quickly on 'mons that are good at forcing other 'mons out so yeah that was my main goal when designing the set more than anything.
Some thoughts on the current meta game that I've experienced on the ladder thus far.
1. Kinda obvious but offensive power is out of control lol. There's so much to check but really not enough to check all the threats, its unstable as hell, but it is a beta version. Truthfully, some of the offensive pressure is not even attributed to shit like Phero, but Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko, and Landorus I are pretty damn concerning in my eyes.
2. Mantine is really good. Beats broken shit like Phero(non HP Electric ofc), beats non Rock Slide or Stone Edge Lando I, has haze to shit on a plethora of set up sweepers, and is a defogger. Great utility in this mon and I expect even better things from it.
3. VoltTurn kinda dominates the meta rn. VoltTurn cores usually between Phero and Koko or Xuritree and Phero, or shit like Genesect and Koko are pretty common. The meta seems less like who's Aegislash dies first and more of who has the momentum in the match. That literally happened every match I had, so its pretty damn valuable, more so than it usually is imo
4. Aegi is really good with all the stuff it checks, dare I say its a somewhat healthy force at the moment because it checks so much broken shit. Said broken shit will probably need to go with Aegi too
5. Fairy type is ridiculously good atm. Dazzling Gleam and T Bolt are so spammable on Tapu Koko, Moonblast and Psychic are really good coverage on Lele, Magearna is really good too with Fleur Cannon. Overall the Fairy Type is great rn lol
6. Bulky pivots with reliable recovery are pretty invaluable atm. Toxapex, Pelipper, and the above mentioned Mantine check a bunch of shit that are really problematic otherwise, all are really good. Also, Celesteela is pretty damn good with Heavy Slam and Leech Seed. Its a really good mon and should be an OU mainstay tbh.
7. Terrain has been playing less of a role than thought it would have been playing, still a big one, but not nearly as meta game defining as I thought. Still really big in the field of play I must say, especially when coupled with things like Rain, oh yeah Rain is pretty good rn
8. Scarfers are extremely effective at the moment and they are rampant. So much so to the point where I would say Scarf Phero is an extremely good set because getting that +1 boost is a bitch sometimes with the amount of scarfers running around everywhere
9. Lastly, I have found that having a ground type(usually Lando I) or electric immunity(Alolan Marowak) plus a pivot such as Mantine is really good right now. Couple those with Aegislash and its at least manageable to deal with the offensive pressure. Yes, lots of 50/50s but its better than not having a chance at all, so I honestly think this is a decent formula atm to stop broken shit.
This is just my experience on the ladder, you guys may have had some other experiences but I'm just relaying what I've noticed. It's been a pretty fun tier so far and I look forward to a great generation.
1. Kinda obvious but offensive power is out of control lol. There's so much to check but really not enough to check all the threats, its unstable as hell, but it is a beta version. Truthfully, some of the offensive pressure is not even attributed to shit like Phero, but Tapu Lele, Tapu Koko, and Landorus I are pretty damn concerning in my eyes.
2. Mantine is really good. Beats broken shit like Phero(non HP Electric ofc), beats non Rock Slide or Stone Edge Lando I, has haze to shit on a plethora of set up sweepers, and is a defogger. Great utility in this mon and I expect even better things from it.
3. VoltTurn kinda dominates the meta rn. VoltTurn cores usually between Phero and Koko or Xuritree and Phero, or shit like Genesect and Koko are pretty common. The meta seems less like who's Aegislash dies first and more of who has the momentum in the match. That literally happened every match I had, so its pretty damn valuable, more so than it usually is imo
4. Aegi is really good with all the stuff it checks, dare I say its a somewhat healthy force at the moment because it checks so much broken shit. Said broken shit will probably need to go with Aegi too
5. Fairy type is ridiculously good atm. Dazzling Gleam and T Bolt are so spammable on Tapu Koko, Moonblast and Psychic are really good coverage on Lele, Magearna is really good too with Fleur Cannon. Overall the Fairy Type is great rn lol
6. Bulky pivots with reliable recovery are pretty invaluable atm. Toxapex, Pelipper, and the above mentioned Mantine check a bunch of shit that are really problematic otherwise, all are really good. Also, Celesteela is pretty damn good with Heavy Slam and Leech Seed. Its a really good mon and should be an OU mainstay tbh.
7. Terrain has been playing less of a role than thought it would have been playing, still a big one, but not nearly as meta game defining as I thought. Still really big in the field of play I must say, especially when coupled with things like Rain, oh yeah Rain is pretty good rn
8. Scarfers are extremely effective at the moment and they are rampant. So much so to the point where I would say Scarf Phero is an extremely good set because getting that +1 boost is a bitch sometimes with the amount of scarfers running around everywhere
9. Lastly, I have found that having a ground type(usually Lando I) or electric immunity(Alolan Marowak) plus a pivot such as Mantine is really good right now. Couple those with Aegislash and its at least manageable to deal with the offensive pressure. Yes, lots of 50/50s but its better than not having a chance at all, so I honestly think this is a decent formula atm to stop broken shit.
This is just my experience on the ladder, you guys may have had some other experiences but I'm just relaying what I've noticed. It's been a pretty fun tier so far and I look forward to a great generation.
Aegislash @ Leftovers
Ability: Stance Change
EVs: 252 HP / 12 Def / 100 SpA / 144 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Substitute
- Toxic
- King's Shield
I've been using this Aegislash set a reasonable amount and I'm really liking it so far, with me going as far as saying that I think it's the best variant of SubToxic Aegislash. The listed EV spread+a timid nature creeps 8 Spe Rotom-W to sub on its Wisp while doubling up as a way to sub safely vs. adamant Crawdaunt who try to SD on you, which is nice because even with the burn nerf SubToxic Aegislash is very heavily hampered by losing its Leftovers recovery. I wanted to preserve its bulk so that it could actually keep subs up against stuff so I've just taken it out of SpA because it hits plenty hard anyway so I'd rather sacrifice that rather than compromising bulk. Timid Aegislash attains 5 more points in SpA than the equivalent modest spread attains (see below) so yeah that's why I'm timid rather than modest. Anyway, while I don't think I need to explain how SubToxic Aegislash works given that everyone and their mum has used it at this point, the cool thing about this EV spread is that a lot of people don't expect people to carry speed on Aegislash. As such they get really caught off-guard when I move before their >base 60 'mon--which lets me get off surprise Subs, Shadow Balls and Toxics which have come into play a few times already. Key things this beats out include uninvested Mega Scizor (letting you scout for Knock Off without risking a free SD) and, of course, Rotom-W. All in all its a super nice set that you should totally try out. If you want to Sub up on jolly Crawdaunt to avoid irritating King's Shield mindgames then a spread of 252 HP / 12 Def / 28 SpA / 216 Spe timid beats that, which is also a nice spread if you don't mind sacrificing a lot of firepower, while max timid (without the 12 defense EVs that provide ensurance vs. adamant Lando-T) subs on neutral base 70s such as Breloom.
I've also been loving subtoxic aegislash and using it a lot myself, but I heavily prefer the satk to the speed. Maybe its just me but i've barely seen any rotom wash on the ladder currently (actually none on the ladder, once when I played CBB lol), nor have I played more than one daunt or think outrunning it is worth the investment. Aegislash is strong off of 150 satk, but a lot of steels are bulky, and it really helps to be able to push through them especially, but in general hitting things hard is obviously important. More SAtk lets you push through 252 hp Mega Scizor (unfortunately you'd need more satk investment to get past ones with sdef investment, but if they don't have knock off you will sdef drop them / pp stall roost anyway), and in general, you want to be hitting mons like tran, ferro, celesteela as hard as you can since you can't toxic, and need to take full advantage of the turns you block leech seed from the latter two. Being unable to 3hko clefable with just a bit of sdef (100 SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 68+ SpD Clefable: 64-76 (31.6 - 37.6%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) is also really sad.
Basically, less speed, you don't really need it, pump it in special attack. I personally run enough to outrun base 70s like mantine and skarm (you can go enough to outrun mega scizor without speed, or tran if you want), max hp, rest in satk, modest.
Terrakion @ Rockium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Swords Dance
-Stone Edge
-Close Combat
-Earthquake
Remember Swords Dance + Rock Gem Terrakion from BW? Well, this is like that, except better in pretty much every way. Not only is Continental Crush effectively an 80% boost to Stone Edge, but it also won't miss, and the Rockium Z can't be knocked off. This set (and Terrakion as a whole, for that matter) will obviously improve a lot after Aegislash is banned and it can run Substitute or something in the last slot, but until then, there's Earthquake. Here's a collection of random examples of what Continental Crush can do:
Ability: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
-Swords Dance
-Stone Edge
-Close Combat
-Earthquake
Remember Swords Dance + Rock Gem Terrakion from BW? Well, this is like that, except better in pretty much every way. Not only is Continental Crush effectively an 80% boost to Stone Edge, but it also won't miss, and the Rockium Z can't be knocked off. This set (and Terrakion as a whole, for that matter) will obviously improve a lot after Aegislash is banned and it can run Substitute or something in the last slot, but until then, there's Earthquake. Here's a collection of random examples of what Continental Crush can do:
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro: 399-471 (101.2 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 339-399 (88.7 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 360-424 (102.2 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 244 HP / 216+ Def Tangrowth: 369-435 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 439-517 (105 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 364-429 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria-Mega: 394-465 (111.2 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 312-367 (102.6 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 382-451 (111 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 331-391 (99.1 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 412-486 (103.5 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Landorus-Therian: 339-399 (88.7 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 244 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 360-424 (102.2 - 120.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 244 HP / 216+ Def Tangrowth: 369-435 (91.7 - 108.2%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Buzzwole: 439-517 (105 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 364-429 (100 - 117.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Altaria-Mega: 394-465 (111.2 - 131.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 312-367 (102.6 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tapu Fini: 382-451 (111 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 331-391 (99.1 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Terrakion Continental Crush vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Celesteela: 412-486 (103.5 - 122.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
SO I was looking at poor Talonflame, whose wings are broken and it desperately needs a new niche in life.
Has anyone tried using a Z-Crystal Bulk Up Talonflame set? Something like...
Talonflame @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly/Naive Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz/Overheat/Taunt
- Bulk Up/Taunt/Substitute
- Roost
Brave Bird+Gale Wings nowadays just doesn't work. Supersonic Strike, however... Now you got a nasty (albeit one time) priority move you can throw to nuke a lot of things with rock support up. Granted, Talonflame loves having rocks off the field on its side, but otherwise you got one of the strongest priority moves in OU that even breaks through Protect
252 Atk Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 249-294 (87.9 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 261-307 (81.8 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 328-387 (115 - 135.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados-Mega: 220-259 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 259-306 (81.1 - 95.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Just as a showing for how hard this priority hits. If you predict the opponent is going to swap out, you can start setting up Bulk Ups to become that much harder to take down. If you want to nuke Ferros or Tangrowths hard without taking rocky helmet damage, fire off an Overheat. Don't wanna take status to cripple you? Lay down a sub on the switchin or fire off a taunt. Add in Roost to keep you healthy, and you got a double roled mon, both as a revenge killer, and as a late game sweeper/cleaner.
Has anyone tried using a Z-Crystal Bulk Up Talonflame set? Something like...
Talonflame @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Gale Wings
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly/Naive Nature
- Brave Bird
- Flare Blitz/Overheat/Taunt
- Bulk Up/Taunt/Substitute
- Roost
Brave Bird+Gale Wings nowadays just doesn't work. Supersonic Strike, however... Now you got a nasty (albeit one time) priority move you can throw to nuke a lot of things with rock support up. Granted, Talonflame loves having rocks off the field on its side, but otherwise you got one of the strongest priority moves in OU that even breaks through Protect
252 Atk Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Genesect: 249-294 (87.9 - 103.8%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 261-307 (81.8 - 96.2%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Greninja: 328-387 (115 - 135.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Gyarados-Mega: 220-259 (66.4 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Talonflame Supersonic Skystrike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Landorus-Therian: 259-306 (81.1 - 95.9%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Just as a showing for how hard this priority hits. If you predict the opponent is going to swap out, you can start setting up Bulk Ups to become that much harder to take down. If you want to nuke Ferros or Tangrowths hard without taking rocky helmet damage, fire off an Overheat. Don't wanna take status to cripple you? Lay down a sub on the switchin or fire off a taunt. Add in Roost to keep you healthy, and you got a double roled mon, both as a revenge killer, and as a late game sweeper/cleaner.
The only reason people even bother asking about Mega Salamence being unbanned is because most players did not realize it actually have like 865 BST in practice. The Gen 7 nerf reduced it into like 830 but now it had 120 Speed on Mega Evolving
On the other hand Z Move seems very underrated right now. This functions exactly like Gem of Gen 5, so it should have some cute usage.
On the other hand Z Move seems very underrated right now. This functions exactly like Gem of Gen 5, so it should have some cute usage.
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I see you're still quite the innovator Gibbs. Justified + dark resist + item removal immunity is actually an incredible combo, great set overall.
I'm seeing Mega Pinsir do quite a bit of work lately. Its middling speed is enough to make it seem like a Sharpedo amongst the Alola mons, and even after Aerilate's nerf, Return is brutal.
Salazzle and Nihilego seem to have completely supplanted Gengar's niche as a fast special Poison attacker. I've seen 3 Gengars in ~200 games and all died instantly without putting up results. That said it's still fucking Gengar so I'm not counting it out just yet.
Salazzle and Nihilego seem to have completely supplanted Gengar's niche as a fast special Poison attacker. I've seen 3 Gengars in ~200 games and all died instantly without putting up results. That said it's still fucking Gengar so I'm not counting it out just yet.
Groudon ex that pelipper set is somewhat similar to a specs Tornadus-T set that I used on rain teams in ORAS, with the oodles of role compression that pelipper brings + a slow u turn. I do think that it's a bit slow and honestly I'd much rather use a set with roost or defog because of the sr weakness. Hurricane is nice though.
Things aren't looking good for OU's only six-gen OU Mon (Starmie dropped in an Aegislash infested XY meta). There might be something in there. Probably as a sign that fate is screwing with me but I've had very good luck with cursed body disables.
Things aren't looking good for OU's only six-gen OU Mon (Starmie dropped in an Aegislash infested XY meta). There might be something in there. Probably as a sign that fate is screwing with me but I've had very good luck with cursed body disables.
Might as well use Rock Polish instead of Swords Dance. Once you switch into a Dark move you can have +1 Atk, +2 Spe Terrakion.
i would like to give some underrated mons some spotlight:
Golem-Alola @ Firium Z
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 77 Atk / 252 SpA / 179 Spe
Naive Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
this set is nice, it's able to trap and KO ferrothorn, scizor, non EP heatran, skarmory, aegislash, and mega mawile, also beating alolan marowak.(the speed ev's allow you to outspeed bulky mega scizor). being able to set-up rokcs it's nice too, i know that magnzone will be the main steel trapper this gen too, but this thing have a lot of niches to distingue itself.
zapdos rose from "everybody hates this"to "everybody love this" in the end of oras, now in SN this thing can check even more threats like pheromosa, aegislash, magearna, tapu fini, CB tapu bulu, lando-i/t, pelipper, mantine, araquanid, golisopod, toxapex, genescect, casteela, buzzwole, decueye, whishmashi, pyumunku, and CB zygarde 10%. it can still check some old and viable mons like scizor, mandibuzz, pinsir, bisharp, skarm and ferro ofc. static is super good against all the u-turners in the meta, and it's not a set-up fodder to zygarde due to hp ice.
+
I've been using this core, and it's really nice Z-parting shot fur coat A-persian + AV golisopd can check a lot of shit togheter, and i belive that this is the best way of using golisopod since it become extremely bulky, i pair this with both tapu bulu and tapu fini, getting defog and recovery support, also tapu lele can't beak this combo because on of the tapus can remove psychc surge.
don't have to much to say about this at the moment, but when the meta settles down a dark type mon that doesn't care about focus miss coverage and learn pursuit is going to be huge, also it have the best cripple move ever in poison touch knock off.
Golem-Alola @ Firium Z
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 77 Atk / 252 SpA / 179 Spe
Naive Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Fire Blast
this set is nice, it's able to trap and KO ferrothorn, scizor, non EP heatran, skarmory, aegislash, and mega mawile, also beating alolan marowak.(the speed ev's allow you to outspeed bulky mega scizor). being able to set-up rokcs it's nice too, i know that magnzone will be the main steel trapper this gen too, but this thing have a lot of niches to distingue itself.
zapdos rose from "everybody hates this"to "everybody love this" in the end of oras, now in SN this thing can check even more threats like pheromosa, aegislash, magearna, tapu fini, CB tapu bulu, lando-i/t, pelipper, mantine, araquanid, golisopod, toxapex, genescect, casteela, buzzwole, decueye, whishmashi, pyumunku, and CB zygarde 10%. it can still check some old and viable mons like scizor, mandibuzz, pinsir, bisharp, skarm and ferro ofc. static is super good against all the u-turners in the meta, and it's not a set-up fodder to zygarde due to hp ice.
I've been using this core, and it's really nice Z-parting shot fur coat A-persian + AV golisopd can check a lot of shit togheter, and i belive that this is the best way of using golisopod since it become extremely bulky, i pair this with both tapu bulu and tapu fini, getting defog and recovery support, also tapu lele can't beak this combo because on of the tapus can remove psychc surge.
don't have to much to say about this at the moment, but when the meta settles down a dark type mon that doesn't care about focus miss coverage and learn pursuit is going to be huge, also it have the best cripple move ever in poison touch knock off.
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