Project Metagame Workshop (OM Submissions CLOSED)

[DrPumpkinz]

With Toxic Spikes support, Glowking has dual 130 STABs in Hex and Venoshock. It can alternatively spread poison itself with Sludge Bomb, and can hit opposing Dark-types who would try to absorb the Toxic Spikes with either Focus Blast or Power Gem.


Gem-boosted Acrobatics is back, babyyyyy.


Viable Fury Cutter user, maybe? It's super strong to make up for the low initial power, and Beast Boost pressures switches which buys a free turn.

 

[Codename C.A.T]

This isn't so much an idea as it's gonna be a post about garnering how much interest there would be in bringing back this: Type CondensinG

It was discussed a bit in the room today and we got to talking (mainly KaenSoul and I lol with a sprinkle of astralydia ) and a major change that has occured since this was a thing back in XY was the removal of Fairy types starting in Sword and Shield Base Set so that would bring them down to a total of 10 types:

TCG Types

(retype Poison types)

(retypes Rock and Ground types)

(retypes Bug types)

(retypes Flying types)

(retypes Fairy and Ghost types)

(retypes Ice types)

This could be HUGE for things like Tyranitar (Fighting/Dark) and Hydreigon (Dark/Dragon) who were 4x weak to Fairy then but would in fact be immune to them now as they are retyped to Psychic.

Initial watch list if this were to go through and get approved

Only weak to Dragon thanks to Fairy being gone and how Levitate works in this OM (makes it immune to Fighting type attacks)

There are no longer any Ground types, it's fast af plus Transistor to boost its already spammable STAB

New typing: Normal/Dragon
Obligatory STAB Boom lol

Lemme know any thoughts/concerns and what, if any, ideas you guys have for good Pokémon and maybe sets as well.

This is really cool! I’ll do some winners/losers from this.

Fighting/Dragon is a really good type combo that gives it lots of offensive and defensive utility. Plus, remember all those ice moves that chomp was quad weak to before this? Well, now it’s resistant to them, since they’ve changed to water!
Ok, Clefable isn’t BAD…but it’s definitely not good. With how strong most of the dragons are, it’s a tough call to say it’s gonna be a threat.
Ban this shit, it’s super dumb. STAB extreme speed is just insane. It has one resist, and that resist is cleaved open by EQ.
Levitate gets a huge buff. Both of these mons can reliably answer the single scariest type in the tier, Dragon, thanks to their newfound fighting coverage.
Fighting STAB EQ. Need I say more?

 

[Gimmicky]

This isn't so much an idea as it's gonna be a post about garnering how much interest there would be in bringing back this: Type CondensinG

It was discussed a bit in the room today and we got to talking (mainly KaenSoul and I lol with a sprinkle of astralydia ) and a major change that has occured since this was a thing back in XY was the removal of Fairy types starting in Sword and Shield Base Set so that would bring them down to a total of 10 types:

TCG Types

(retype Poison types)

(retypes Rock and Ground types)

(retypes Bug types)

(retypes Flying types)

(retypes Fairy and Ghost types)

(retypes Ice types)

This could be HUGE for things like Tyranitar (Fighting/Dark) and Hydreigon (Dark/Dragon) who were 4x weak to Fairy then but would in fact be immune to them now as they are retyped to Psychic.

Initial watch list if this were to go through and get approved

Only weak to Dragon thanks to Fairy being gone and how Levitate works in this OM (makes it immune to Fighting type attacks)

There are no longer any Ground types, it's fast af plus Transistor to boost its already spammable STAB

New typing: Normal/Dragon
Obligatory STAB Boom lol

Lemme know any thoughts/concerns and what, if any, ideas you guys have for good Pokémon and maybe sets as well.

Let's keep the TCG revival train going with a few mons I didn't bring up in my original reply

Absolute demon of a Pokemon, Diamond Storm/Iron Defense + Calm Mind/Rock Polish boost a STAB Body Press and a superpowered STAB Stored Power to insane levels. Relevant weaknesses who?

Codename C.A.T Brought this up, but Chomp is an absolutely incredible Pokemon that benefits amazingly from the type compressions, and is honestly watchlist-worthy IMO. Steels aren't very good in this format, and the few exceptions are destroyed by Garchomp's fighting coverage.

has anyone ever noticed how small this sprite is

With Zeraora (likely) going to be banned, and Dragapult not particularly eye-catching, scarf Buzzwole has potention to shred through teams and outspeed most of the relevant unboosted meta. Fighting/Grass has become pretty good coverage, making it great offensively, and still has it's high HP and Defense stats allowing it to still maintain defensive utility.

One of the few Electrics that I don't see being banned, Zapdos maintains a lot of defensive utility, while being able to spam a strong Volt Switch with no solid answers outside of other Electrics, while also possessing the utility of instant recovery, hazard removal and status spreading it does in base. Zapdos is both incredibly hard to wall and solidly hard to break, though trading an Electric neutrality for a Fighting weakness hurts it, especially with fighting-damage stealth rocks.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I'm not actually too worried about Electric-types (at least not "they're all gonna be banned" worried). The removal of Ground is obviously a huge buff, but Dragon and Grass are way better in this meta, and there's not really anything Electrics can do about them.

 

[Nitro Indigo]

I thought the TCG got rid of Dragon in Gen 8?

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I thought the TCG got rid of Dragon in Gen 8?

It did but then it got added back in.

 

[drampa's grandpa]

This isn't so much an idea as it's gonna be a post about garnering how much interest there would be in bringing back this: Type CondensinG

It was discussed a bit in the room today and we got to talking (mainly KaenSoul and I lol with a sprinkle of astralydia ) and a major change that has occured since this was a thing back in XY was the removal of Fairy types starting in Sword and Shield Base Set so that would bring them down to a total of 10 types:

TCG Types

(retype Poison types)

(retypes Rock and Ground types)

(retypes Bug types)

(retypes Flying types)

(retypes Fairy and Ghost types)

(retypes Ice types)

This could be HUGE for things like Tyranitar (Fighting/Dark) and Hydreigon (Dark/Dragon) who were 4x weak to Fairy then but would in fact be immune to them now as they are retyped to Psychic.

Initial watch list if this were to go through and get approved

Only weak to Dragon thanks to Fairy being gone and how Levitate works in this OM (makes it immune to Fighting type attacks)

There are no longer any Ground types, it's fast af plus Transistor to boost its already spammable STAB

New typing: Normal/Dragon
Obligatory STAB Boom lol

Lemme know any thoughts/concerns and what, if any, ideas you guys have for good Pokémon and maybe sets as well.

Condensed TypinG sounds more like a pet mod to me.

It's Type CondensinG because TCG because Trading Card Game but....
I have to agree at first glance.
This is several different thematically related rules based on the trading card game, not one rule.

I don't actually have any complaints other than that, I really liked TCG when it existed. I'll give you that was a while back and things have changed, including my tastes and the card game itself, but the mix up of types was fun to play around with, while remaining distinct from something like Camo in that you know how to hit or wall something prior to team preview. And it is clear from this thread that theorymonning it is popular already.

I would submit it next gen and see what the other members of the submissions team think about it as an OM.

Yesterday we were discussing a terrible idea in the OM room and out of that discussion and not so bad idea come out, and I want to know if I'm not the only one who sees potential on it, I call it
Unwanted Gifts
Metagame premise: A Pokémon receive the foe's original ability upon entering the field.
While teambuilding for this meta you can't just choose the mons with the best abilities as your opponent would be the one using them, well then maybe Durant could be a good option? but what is going to do against someone with stronger mons like Corviknight? Maybe choosing the worst possible ability isn't that good of an idea either!
But then what works? Let's find out!
Potential bans and threats: Maybe we should ban the hindering abilities to prevent centralization, but I fear going beyond "possible" broken mons like Regigigas or Slaking (assuming either is in SV) could hurt the identity of the tier.
Questions for the community:
Prioritize the Ban of mons or abilitites?
Would you actually put Archen on your team if Archeops was banned just to give Defeatist to the opponent instead of actually using 6 mons?
Would the usual ability bans (Shadow Tag, Moody, Arena Trap, etc.) be necessary here?

Not a fan of this. The issue Dr Pumpkinz pointed out is likely going to persist no matter what is done. A metagame like this would have a huge dip in power level and that sort of metagame is typically less popular. It's the sort of meta which buffs Regigigas, Truant, and prevents you from using a LOT of good things limiting creativity and good team
I believe I would reject it, including with any of the additions mentioned, and I cannot think what would change my mind.

 

[Electra102]

SUPER MOVES

Metagame premise: Each Pokémon has two “super moves”, but they are made up of two ordinary moves each.
How are Super Moves made?
-The Base Powers, Accuracy, and Power Points of the first and second moves are averaged to make the BP and PP of the first Super Move. Same goes for the third and fourth moves with the second Super Move.
NOTE: A status move is treated as if it has no base power
-Both of the moves’ can happen. For example, a Super Move made up of Fire Blast and Blizzard would have a chance to burn AND a chance to freeze. When both moves have the same effect, the chances of it happening are calculated as if the move was used twice in the same turn.
-Category is chosen by which move comes first in the move list.
-Move types are combined. For example, a Super Move can be Fire/Poison type.

As an example, take this Garchomp

Slot 1: Earthquake
Slot 2: Scale Shot
Slot 3: Rock Slide
Slot 4: Fire Blast

The Garchomp would have two Super Moves: a physical 62.5 Base Power 95% accurate, Ground/Dragon type move that drops defense and raises speed, and a 87.5% accurate physical 92.5 base power Rock/Fire type move with a 10% chance to burn and a 30% chance to flinch.

Potential bans and threats:
BANS
-Swords Dance, Nasty Plot Belly Drum
-Multi-hit moves
-Any form of Protect or Substitute
-Multiple flinch moves or a flinch-causing move and a paralysis-causing move
-Priority moves
-Stored Power and Power Trip
-Healing moves outside of HP-draining attacks, Ingrain, and Leech Seed

Threats
Scale Shot
Priority Moves
Stat-Boosting Attacks

Clefable

-Bulky sweeper with Charge Beam/Cosmic Power and Moonblast/Flamethrower. Suffers a lot from losing Soft Boiled and Stored Power, though

Weavile

-Power-Up Punch/Knock Off alone should not be scoffed at. This thing could pick up boosts without even trying to, and try to sweep a team

Togekiss

Can run an Aura Sphere/Zap Cannon Super Move to create a 100 BP always-paralyzing move. With a paralysis, Togekiss can try to fish for a boost from Ancient Power

Questions for the community: Should status moves work differently? Should they be banned?

Should perfect accuracy moves and poor accuracy moves being together be banned?

 

[Dusk Mage Necrozma]

Isn’t this just a more complicated Linked?

 

[Electra102]

That was quick

It is certainly similar to Linked, but Super Moves combines four moves into two super moves, rather than using two moves in one turn. I feel I tried quite hard to keep Super Moves and Linked as different formats.

Of course, above was what my idea was, and it can certainly be changed to make the format more different

 

[KaenSoul]

Before moving on, I made a quick type chart for TCG as the old one included Fairy. (plz tell me I didn't forget anything)

Was going to go on more detail, but don't want this to be too confusing, also is kind of funny how many perfect coverage combos are made with Fighting + one other type, thanks to god Levitate gives Fighting Immunity here (you fly too high to get punched?).

SUPER MOVES

Metagame premise: Each Pokémon has two “super moves”, but they are made up of two ordinary moves each.
How are Super Moves made?
-The Base Powers, Accuracy, and Power Points of the first and second moves are averaged to make the BP and PP of the first Super Move. Same goes for the third and fourth moves with the second Super Move.
NOTE: A status move is treated as if it has no base power
-Both of the moves’ can happen. For example, a Super Move made up of Fire Blast and Blizzard would have a chance to burn AND a chance to freeze. When both moves have the same effect, the chances of it happening are calculated as if the move was used twice in the same turn.
-Category is chosen by which move comes first in the move list.
-Move types are combined. For example, a Super Move can be Fire/Poison type.

As an example, take this Garchomp

Slot 1: Earthquake
Slot 2: Scale Shot
Slot 3: Rock Slide
Slot 4: Fire Blast

The Garchomp would have two Super Moves: a physical 62.5 Base Power 95% accurate, Ground/Dragon type move that drops defense and raises speed, and a 87.5% accurate physical 92.5 base power Rock/Fire type move with a 10% chance to burn and a 30% chance to flinch.

Potential bans and threats:
BANS
-Swords Dance, Nasty Plot Belly Drum
-Multi-hit moves
-Any form of Protect or Substitute
-Multiple flinch moves or a flinch-causing move and a paralysis-causing move
-Priority moves
-Stored Power and Power Trip
-Healing moves outside of HP-draining attacks, Ingrain, and Leech Seed

Threats
Scale Shot
Priority Moves
Stat-Boosting Attacks

Clefable

-Bulky sweeper with Charge Beam/Cosmic Power and Moonblast/Flamethrower. Suffers a lot from losing Soft Boiled and Stored Power, though

Weavile

-Power-Up Punch/Knock Off alone should not be scoffed at. This thing could pick up boosts without even trying to, and try to sweep a team

Togekiss

Can run an Aura Sphere/Zap Cannon Super Move to create a 100 BP always-paralyzing move. With a paralysis, Togekiss can try to fish for a boost from Ancient Power

Questions for the community: Should status moves work differently? Should they be banned?

Should perfect accuracy moves and poor accuracy moves being together be banned?

Well, it does seem like it would end quite different to Linked despite the similar premise, as boosting moves halves the power of the move they are combining with, you only get 2 move slots, and you aren't attacking twice you get an average BP from both moves, so the power level should be way lower than in linked as it should be quite hard to get pass 100 BP.
Like, it is quite unique when you think about it, but I'm kind of concerned about stall tho, as few mons will be using high BP stabs, your two final moves may have 20 PP total and Flying Press kind of moves usually end with awkward coverage, it may be too easy to wall your two moves.

 

[Electra102]

Well, it does seem like it would end quite different to Linked despite the similar premise, as boosting moves halves the power of the move they are combining with, you only get 2 move slots, and you aren't attacking twice you get an average BP from both moves, so the power level should be way lower than in linked as it should be quite hard to get pass 100 BP

Fair point, but how do I lift that restriction?

I'm kind of concerned about stall tho, as few mons will be using high BP stabs, your two final moves may have 20 PP total and Flying Press kind of moves usually end with awkward coverage, it may be too easy to wall your two moves.

However, one can tailor a Pokémon to hit a certain type 4x super effectively. I’m not sure how else to nerf stall; most healing moves are already banned

 

[KaenSoul]

I’m not sure how else to nerf stall; most healing moves are already banned

I was thinking of something like Toxapex with Spite+anything but double checking your banlist there sure aren't many options so is probably fine.

 

[Gimmicky]

It's Type CondensinG because TCG because Trading Card Game but....
I have to agree at first glance.
This is several different thematically related rules based on the trading card game, not one rule.

I don't actually have any complaints other than that, I really liked TCG when it existed. I'll give you that was a while back and things have changed, including my tastes and the card game itself, but the mix up of types was fun to play around with, while remaining distinct from something like Camo in that you know how to hit or wall something prior to team preview. And it is clear from this thread that theorymonning it is popular already.

I would submit it next gen and see what the other members of the submissions team think about it as an OM.

totally not sweetening the deal and saying that we realized Drampa is a legit threat ;) definitely not.

Half-Related, earlier today on the simulator, me and kennukem were doing a bit more theorymon brainstorming for TcG, and we stumbled upon something that's actually really cool. Allow me to introduce to you.. the apple.

Appletun goes from a very mediocre 'mon with a bad defensive typing, to potentially one of the better defensive Pokemon in the meta. With the types condensed, Appletun goes from six weaknesses to only one, and it has the bulk to live neutral hits. It's not a complete momentum drain, either, as it has a non-negligible damage output with Apple Acid and Leech Seed. What really makes Appletun a core defensive pokemon is it's natural defensive synergy with Tapu Fini and Jirachi.

With the changes to the type chart, these three form a potent core that naturally take advantage of the others' strengths and weaknesses. Slap on a fighting type of your choice with u-turn, and you have a strong offensive and defensive core that allows you to safely get in your other offensive threats.

Overall, TcG has proven to be a really interesting meta to think about, and I'm excited to see if it will be approved for Gen 9.

 

[Apollo ChaoZ]

Will fighting types get a spdef boost in sand as there are no more Rock types?

 

[Dusk Mage Necrozma]

Yes

 

[Apollo ChaoZ]

Psychic bug trevenant seems quite interesting

 

[Apollo ChaoZ]

does toxic hit everything as it's dark type?

 

[DrPumpkinz]

does toxic hit everything as it's dark type?

Every instance of type stuff is ctrl+F replaced with the TCG type. Fighting mons are immune to Sandstorm and get their SpDef boosted; Dark mons can't be poisoned, have accurate Toxics, and remove Toxic Spikes; Psychic mons can't be trapped...

 

[Apollo ChaoZ]

Oh, its more detailed then I thought! Gonna be interesting to play it

 

[Codename C.A.T]

The Domino Effect
Moves used several times in a row become used multiple times in a turn, up to 5 times.
If this is confusing, let's have an example:
Say you have a Scizor. It uses Swords Dance once. It gets the +2 attack, as usual. However, if it uses Swords Dance immediately after on the 2nd turn, it will use Swords Dance twice in one turn. The same applies for its Bullet Punch. Use it once, just regular Bullet Punch. Use it twice in a row, Bullet punch activates twice. This still consumes just one PP, so it acts similar to a multihit move.

Notable Buffs
Very fast users of Torment gain a huge advantage in this meta. They can stop the opponent from clicking whatever move they want to spam a billion times.
These are probably gonna be the first bans. Should be obvious why. Spam either Leaf Blade or Extreme Speed or Earthquake with very little repercussion.
Surprisingly, defensive Pokemon benefit from this too. They can instantly heal their entire health bar if they're spamming Recover. Plus, Toxapex and Slowbro can freely spam Scald and become even more likely to burn.

Questions for the community
How will pivot moves be handled?
Are there any changes that should be made to make it more balanced?

 

[DrPumpkinz]

The Domino Effect
Moves used several times in a row become used multiple times in a turn, up to 5 times.
If this is confusing, let's have an example:
Say you have a Scizor. It uses Swords Dance once. It gets the +2 attack, as usual. However, if it uses Swords Dance immediately after on the 2nd turn, it will use Swords Dance twice in one turn. The same applies for its Bullet Punch. Use it once, just regular Bullet Punch. Use it twice in a row, Bullet punch activates twice. This still consumes just one PP, so it acts similar to a multihit move.

Notable Buffs
Very fast users of Torment gain a huge advantage in this meta. They can stop the opponent from clicking whatever move they want to spam a billion times.
These are probably gonna be the first bans. Should be obvious why. Spam either Leaf Blade or Extreme Speed or Earthquake with very little repercussion.
Surprisingly, defensive Pokemon benefit from this too. They can instantly heal their entire health bar if they're spamming Recover. Plus, Toxapex and Slowbro can freely spam Scald and become even more likely to burn.

Questions for the community
How will pivot moves be handled?
Are there any changes that should be made to make it more balanced?

Pivot moves would just switch out before the user has a chance to build up a chain.

I'm very worried about how dominant offense will be in this meta. Metronome (the item) has seen occasional use in vanilla on Pokemon with spammable STABs, and that took 5 turns to cap out at double power. Moves in this meta get that strong on turn 2 and keep getting stronger. Defensive counterplay is already hard at x2 power. At x3 or x4 power with any decently strong mon, it's basically impossible. This is on top of stat boosts being way easier to get, and moves like Waterfall being able to cheese through would-be checks. Increased healing by spamming Recover doesn't mean much when you're still limited to 100% of your max HP.

 

[MAMP]

this format would be egregiously offensively slanted. any decent fast offensive mon becomes completely unwallable after just a single attack. double recover doesn't matter when every offensive threat only has to be in for a couple of turns before they become capable of ohkoing almost anything

 

[Gimmicky]

Metronome Scizor on the second turn of using a resisted Bullet Punch outdamages Toxapex Regenerator, and Toxapex can not switch in at all after 3 turns.

+2 252+ Atk Metronome (Used Once) Technician Scizor Bullet Punch (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 136-164 (44.7 - 53.9%) -- approx. 33.6% chance to 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Metronome (Used Twice) Technician Scizor Bullet Punch (3 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 240-285 (78.9 - 93.7%)

This metagame wouldn't just be offense slanted; it'd be entirely hyperoffense.

 

[Apollo ChaoZ]

The Domino Effect
Moves used several times in a row become used multiple times in a turn, up to 5 times.
If this is confusing, let's have an example:
Say you have a Scizor. It uses Swords Dance once. It gets the +2 attack, as usual. However, if it uses Swords Dance immediately after on the 2nd turn, it will use Swords Dance twice in one turn. The same applies for its Bullet Punch. Use it once, just regular Bullet Punch. Use it twice in a row, Bullet punch activates twice. This still consumes just one PP, so it acts similar to a multihit move.

Notable Buffs
Very fast users of Torment gain a huge advantage in this meta. They can stop the opponent from clicking whatever move they want to spam a billion times.
These are probably gonna be the first bans. Should be obvious why. Spam either Leaf Blade or Extreme Speed or Earthquake with very little repercussion.
Surprisingly, defensive Pokemon benefit from this too. They can instantly heal their entire health bar if they're spamming Recover. Plus, Toxapex and Slowbro can freely spam Scald and become even more likely to burn.

Questions for the community
How will pivot moves be handled?
Are there any changes that should be made to make it more balanced?

How about Instead of the damage being applied twice, the secondary effect is, and it's only like a metronome power boost or smth