Metagame Workshop

[JTD783]

Apparently Theorymon dude came up with this concept om idea a few pages back. Page 80/81 I think.

I just read it since I had never seen that post lol. The main difference is that Theorymon's meta would have no megas, no Z moves, and no full evolution lines, and Pikachu wouldn't get any buffs that Let's Go data predicts, at least not until it's confirmed. I would also keep all egg moves and move tutor moves, which Theorymon was debating to keep or not. I definitely like the sound of Theorymon's meta though, I'd play it for sure.

I guess its up to you guys to decide which you prefer but in any case I'm looking forward to Let's Go-inspired metas :)

 

[hiei-q]

Accelgor @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Final Gambit
- Spikes
- Encore

H-Knock Off can cycle through the opponent's items pretty well, or you can just suicide Accelgor right away to remove their hazard setter right off the bat. It might be worthwhile to have a backup setter in case you feel the need to perform this strat. Spikes and Encore are just standard lead shit.

How do Super Fang/Nature's Madness, Rapid Spin, Synchronoise, Foul Play, Doom Desire/Future Sight, Final Gambit, Eruption/Water Spout, and Last Resort work? Should H-trapping moves (Infestation, Magma Storm, Anchor Shot, etc.) also be banned?

Rapid spin is just a hazzard remover (but not H-hazzard), so i don't see the inconvenient. Foul play works as a 95 bp move, and i think last resort mayonly activate if your current pokemon use every move he has. For moves loke rapid spin or final gambit, i guess it is better to fix an ammount of damage they would do. For example, final gambit can have a fixed 180/250 fixed hazzard power (the same as self-destruct/explosion), at the cost of killing your current pokemon, but it woudn't activate against ghosts. (180 power is enough to take down tyranytar with rocks up, so it may have a niche without being broken, 250 power does 37,5% neutral). I don't know if there is a way to modify final gambit/explosion hazzard effect without changing the metagame rules.

I think most trapping moves might be ok. You usually switch into something that counters or checks the opposing pokemon, so you woudn't mind being trapped, unless you want to double switch or switch again expecting some lure move. Once the opposing pokemon switchs out, the trapping effect should dissapear. Your opponent can predict you switching and double-switch into something that checks your pokemon, trapping it in the process. That sounds like a problem i think, but at least it takes some skill.

By the way, how do focus punch and sucker punch work?

 

[Red_Shaggy]

Sucker Punch fails, like it does usually when a pokemon switches out. Super Fang/Nature's madness do half of your opponent's hp and will be banned. Doom.desire/Future sight will activate at the end of two turns. Synchronoise and Eruption/Water spout are based off of your active mon. Focus Punch activates normally.

What do you guys think about banning H-Knock Off?

 

[hiei-q]

Sucker Punch fails, like it does usually when a pokemon switches out. Super Fang/Nature's madness do half of your opponent's hp and will be banned. Doom.desire/Future sight will activate at the end of two turns. Synchronoise and Eruption/Water spout are based off of your active mon. Focus Punch activates normally.

What do you guys think about banning H-Knock Off?

I dont find knock off banworthy. It is strong against some styles but after you remove the
item it doesnt deal too much damage.

H-Thousand arrows and H-smack down seem pretty powerfull. Set up and spam eartquake.

You can allow 1 status Z-move as well as 1 H-move per match, so teams feel encouraged into using 2 z-crystals.

Also, if magic guard blocks H-moves damage, you may allow 1 magic guard user per team.

 

[HeatEdgeSword]

Generation 3 Doubles OU​

Metagame premise: It's Doubles OU in Generation 3 style, the place where it all started! There are some key differences between later generation's Doubles format, spread attack deals 50% damage to multiple targets rather than 75%, and players have to switch as soon as their Pokemon has fainted rather than at the end of the turn. Sitrus Berry only heals 30 HP, and it will only be consumed at the end of the turn instead of immediately after the Pokemon reaches the required amount of HP.

Ban and clause:
OU clause
Sleep Clause Mod
OHKO Clause
Evasion Clause
Evasion Ability Clause

Potential threats:
Anything with Fake Out is very valued in Doubles as it gives some momentum. Do note that Fake Out has +1 priority back in Generation 3.

Suicune can functions as a Calm Mind user as per usual or it can provide speed control with Icy Wind.

Gen 3 is back when Regice was cool. It has the famous BoltBeam coverage with speed control in the form of Icy Wind.

Marowak can redirect Electric-type moves with Lightning Rod, and it's unaffected by it as it is a Ground-type (Lightning Rod doesn't gain Electric-type immunity back in Gen 3-4). Marowak also has Bonemerang, which is usually more powerful than Earthquake.

Questions to the community:
Which Pokemon should be unbanned in Generation 3 DOU? Wobuffet and Wynaut or Latios and Latias (just without Soul Dew)? Or all of the ones that I mention?

Any other potential threats that you can come up with?

 

[Magii]

Generation 3 Doubles OU​

Metagame premise: It's Doubles OU in Generation 3 style, the place where it all started! There are some key differences between later generation's Doubles format, spread attack deals 50% damage to multiple targets rather than 75%, and players have to switch as soon as their Pokemon has fainted rather than at the end of the turn. Sitrus Berry only heals 30 HP, and it will only be consumed at the end of the turn instead of immediately after the Pokemon reaches the required amount of HP.

Ban and clause:
OU clause
Sleep Clause Mod
OHKO Clause
Evasion Clause
Evasion Ability Clause

Potential threats:
Anything with Fake Out is very valued in Doubles as it gives some momentum. Do note that Fake Out has +1 priority back in Generation 3.

Suicune can functions as a Calm Mind user as per usual or it can provide speed control with Icy Wind.

Gen 3 is back when Regice was cool. It has the famous BoltBeam coverage with speed control in the form of Icy Wind.

Marowak can redirect Electric-type moves with Lightning Rod, and it's unaffected by it as it is a Ground-type (Lightning Rod doesn't gain Electric-type immunity back in Gen 3-4). Marowak also has Bonemerang, which is usually more powerful than Earthquake.

Questions to the community:
Which Pokemon should be unbanned in Generation 3 DOU? Wobuffet and Wynaut or Latios and Latias (just without Soul Dew)? Or all of the ones that I mention?

Any other potential threats that you can come up with?

I believe that this is something that would be played in ROA (Ruins of Alpha) since it has existed at some point (Gen 3 Doubles).

 

[cityscapes]

wild card

basic premise: it's like monotype, except you only need to have five mons of a single type. the sixth can be whatever you want.

why play it? lots of types in monotype are held back by bad hazard removal options, lack of counterplay to a certain threat or type, etc, and many types have only one or two viable teams. this meta attempts to not only make more types viable, but also increase diversity within teams while keeping the "feel" of monotype.

banlist will probably start out as monotype banlist

potential threats: i can see sweepers like mega gyarados or dragonite using the webs/veil support of bug or ice while providing defensive utility. on the other hand, offensive typings like fighting and ground can just slap a web/veil setter on the team as well. there's also offensive synergy, like fighting teams running tapu koko to provide good neutral coverage and activate hawlucha's electric seed.

defensive cores are also much improved in this metagame because they aren't all neutral or weak to certain types. for example, normal teams can utilize mega sableye + chansey. fire now gets a hazard remover that isn't weak to rocks. however, stall will probably be generally worse than offense because it relies on one mon holding the core together.

questions for the community:
do you think this metagame would succeed in increasing diversity?
does it sound fun?
is the name ok?

 

[Derper]

I don't know if this has been though of before it seems pretty simple so it may have been.
Title: Randomlessmons

Metagame premise.
To remove the randomness of Pokemon to make it less luck based.
Damage ranges, Damage ranges are to be averaged instead of doing between 1 and 0.85 times the damage every attack will do (1+0.85)/2 ,0.925 times the damage.
Additional effects such as critical hits, misses and status
every time a move has a miss chance or a additional effect chance it will gain a token
Example 1 If my greninja uses scald it will be given a 3/10 burn token if greninja uses scald 3 more times it will apply a burn to the opponent.
Example 2 if my ferrothorn uses gyro ball a 1/24 critical token gets added to my ferrothorn as 1/24 is the standard probability of a critical. if ferrothorn attacks 24 more times it will be given a guaranteed critical.
Example 3 if my entei uses sacred fire it gains a 1/20 miss token for sacred fire if it uses sacred fire 19 more times it will miss the last one.
Why are the tokens awarded to the user instead of the target you ask. this is because people could just switch out Pokemon with high burn/crit tokens to reset them is this was the case.
Random abilities, this is a small list but to keep consistent with the theme, abilities such as harvest (outside of sun) would also have to be given the token mechanic.

Potential bans and threats.
Ban clefable. bulky sweepers such as clefable are susceptible to getting critical hit which ignores all the boosts. Having to wait 24 turns to get a crit to break clefable would allow it to very easily set up and sweep your team. Of course phasing moves, haze and unaware exist but they are often not enough to stop clefable entirely.

Questions for the community.
Should tokens reset on switch or not?
Should status conditions also be given the token mechanic? example thawing out and being fully paralysed

Other notes
multi hit moves will only give one critical/flinch token no matter the amount of hits

 

[Merritt]

Additional effects such as critical hits, misses and status
every time a move has a miss chance or a additional effect chance it will gain a token
Example 2 if my ferrothorn uses gyro ball a 1/24 critical token gets added to my ferrothorn as 1/24 is the standard probability of a critical. if ferrothorn attacks 24 more times it will be given a guaranteed critical.

Other notes
multi hit moves will only give one critical/flinch token no matter the amount of hits

A couple questions about the critical hit mechanics. Let's say I'm running Terrakion, and use Stone Edge, which has a 1/8 (3/24) chance of getting a critical hit. Will those 3/24 "tokens" still be in effect if I were to use Close Combat? Essentially, if you use Stone Edge and then Close Combat, are you at 4/24 total tokens?

For multihit moves, since they only have one token associated with them, does that mean that if you proc a critical with them then they will crit all five times, or will they only crit once on the first hit?

 

[Red_Shaggy]

stuff

This is in the list of commonly rejected submissions.

 

[Magii]

wild card

basic premise: it's like monotype, except you only need to have five mons of a single type. the sixth can be whatever you want.

why play it? lots of types in monotype are held back by bad hazard removal options, lack of counterplay to a certain threat or type, etc, and many types have only one or two viable teams. this meta attempts to not only make more types viable, but also increase diversity within teams while keeping the "feel" of monotype.

banlist will probably start out as monotype banlist

potential threats: i can see sweepers like mega gyarados or dragonite using the webs/veil support of bug or ice while providing defensive utility. on the other hand, offensive typings like fighting and ground can just slap a web/veil setter on the team as well. there's also offensive synergy, like fighting teams running tapu koko to provide good neutral coverage and activate hawlucha's electric seed.

defensive cores are also much improved in this metagame because they aren't all neutral or weak to certain types. for example, normal teams can utilize mega sableye + chansey. fire now gets a hazard remover that isn't weak to rocks. however, stall will probably be generally worse than offense because it relies on one mon holding the core together.

questions for the community:
do you think this metagame would succeed in increasing diversity?
does it sound fun?
is the name ok?

Already exists as a rare side tour in Monotype, sorry SL.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Wondermons:
Premise: The "Wonder Guard" effect is active on every Pokemon, but every Pokemon's base HP is reduced to 1.
Explanation: Pokemon can only take damage when they are hit by a super effective attack or by indirect damage. This is a rule of the meta; every Pokemon does NOT have the ability Wonder Guard on top of their own. Thus, abilities like Mold Breaker do not bypass the Wonder Guard effect. Furthermore, like Shedninja, every Pokemon has their base HP reduced to 1. Again like Shedninja, this is not like a normal base stat, and will ALWAYS stay at 1 hp; behaving just like Shedninja's hp behaves.
Banlist: Standard OU, but may unban trapping? Furthermore, I can see the abilities Sturdy, Magic Guard, Mold Breaker, and Magic Bounce being over centralizing (Sturdy in particular). I have my doubts that one or all of these abilities may have to be banned.
Viability:
*Hazards, Hazard Removal, and Hazard Prevention: Hazards, especially Steal Rocks, immediately KO and prevent most Pokemon to switch in without being instantly dropped. Thus, Stealth Rocks are extremely potent and centralizing. Removing hazards is limited to Defog, as Rapid Spin is Normal and not Super Effective to anything. Defoggers like Xatu and Sigilyph bring their abilities to help prevent hazards or be immune to hazards, respectively. Sigilyph especially is valuable as it can come into already placed Stealth Rocks and Defog easily. Fast Taunt and Stealth Rock users like Aerodactyl are equal parts offensive and protective, making a good lead. Mold Breaker Stealth Rock users like Excadrill and Pinsir can break through Magic Bounce users, and hit with dark attacks and even Rock Tomb, allowing them to outspeed and 2HKO Sigilyph.
*Hail and Sandstorm: These weathers can easily scare away many Pokemon that aren't immune to the indirect damage. Snow Warning users like Ninetails-Alola are fast and can come into an immune attack, and go for Encore or HP Fire for other Ice types.
*Good Coverage: Having many attacks that hit SE on a ton of the meta is great for always being on the offensive. Furthermore, base power, attacking stats, and defensive stats are all irrelevant. Instead, viability is centered towards valuable secondary effects like hitting multiple times to break a Focus Sash, lowering speed, or having a chance to inflict a status like poison or burn. Lastly, if movepool options are limited to a contactl attack of one type that is equal in always to another attack but is then non-contact, the non-contact attack should be taken as to avoid Rough Skin or Rocky Helmet and other contact negatives on Focus Sash or Sturdy Pokemon.

Questions:
Should sturdy be banned?
Is this plausible to be coded?
And does an OM like this already exist? Im super hyped theory crafting this!

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Metagame premise: If you have played or know the old om "Ability Unity," this concept utilizes part of it. This new metagame lets any Pokemon that shares the same single typing or dual typing of another Pokemon take moves from the other's movepool and one of its abilities as well.
For example:

Xurkitree @ Psychium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball
- Hypnosis

Raikou @ Leftovers
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Thunderbolt
- Energy Ball
- Substitute

Potential bans and threats:

• OU Clauses.
• Bans: Smeargle, Regigigas, Slaking, Pure Power, Impostor, Wonder Guard, Passing Extreme Speed, Passing Belly Drum
• Possible Bans/Suspects: Huge Power, Adaptability, Speed Boost, Water Bubble, Shell Smash, Arena Trap

Questions for the community: Is "Type Unity" a sufficient name for this meta? Would sleep inducing moves be good for potential suspects? Should Pokemon be able to pass abilities and moves with Uber Pokemon that share the same typing?

So does the Pokemon that they take the ability and movepool from have to be on the same team? Or does every mono Electric type now have access to Tail Glow?
As far for sleep, I think you're referring to Spore right? There really aren't that many fast or more viable Spore users there, and I can see much more problems here lol. Like, does Sivally learn the abilities and moves every mono type pokemon? What about how Dragonit now has Delta Stream and Dragons Assent? Also, why is water bubble banned? Only Golisipod would use it, and it would be great I know, but there is more ban-able problems here. Like geomancy onMagic Guard Flogres, or Boomburst on a Scrappy Porygon Z?
Like the name tho!

 

[Gravity Monkey]

Wondermons:
Premise: The "Wonder Guard" effect is active on every Pokemon, but every Pokemon's base HP is reduced to 1.
Explanation: Pokemon can only take damage when they are hit by a super effective attack or by indirect damage. This is a rule of the meta; every Pokemon does NOT have the ability Wonder Guard on top of their own. Thus, abilities like Mold Breaker do not bypass the Wonder Guard effect. Furthermore, like Shedninja, every Pokemon has their base HP reduced to 1. Again like Shedninja, this is not like a normal base stat, and will ALWAYS stay at 1 hp; behaving just like Shedninja's hp behaves.
Banlist: Standard OU, but may unban trapping? Furthermore, I can see the abilities Sturdy, Magic Guard, Mold Breaker, and Magic Bounce being over centralizing (Sturdy in particular). I have my doubts that one or all of these abilities may have to be banned.
Viability:
*Hazards, Hazard Removal, and Hazard Prevention: Hazards, especially Steal Rocks, immediately KO and prevent most Pokemon to switch in without being instantly dropped. Thus, Stealth Rocks are extremely potent and centralizing. Removing hazards is limited to Defog, as Rapid Spin is Normal and not Super Effective to anything. Defoggers like Xatu and Sigilyph bring their abilities to help prevent hazards or be immune to hazards, respectively. Sigilyph especially is valuable as it can come into already placed Stealth Rocks and Defog easily. Fast Taunt and Stealth Rock users like Aerodactyl are equal parts offensive and protective, making a good lead. Mold Breaker Stealth Rock users like Excadrill and Pinsir can break through Magic Bounce users, and hit with dark attacks and even Rock Tomb, allowing them to outspeed and 2HKO Sigilyph.
*Hail and Sandstorm: These weathers can easily scare away many Pokemon that aren't immune to the indirect damage. Snow Warning users like Ninetails-Alola are fast and can come into an immune attack, and go for Encore or HP Fire for other Ice types.
*Good Coverage: Having many attacks that hit SE on a ton of the meta is great for always being on the offensive. Furthermore, base power, attacking stats, and defensive stats are all irrelevant. Instead, viability is centered towards valuable secondary effects like hitting multiple times to break a Focus Sash, lowering speed, or having a chance to inflict a status like poison or burn. Lastly, if movepool options are limited to a contactl attack of one type that is equal in always to another attack but is then non-contact, the non-contact attack should be taken as to avoid Rough Skin or Rocky Helmet and other contact negatives on Focus Sash or Sturdy Pokemon.

Questions:
Should sturdy be banned?
Is this plausible to be coded?
And does an OM like this already exist? Im super hyped theory crafting this!

I've seen this before. I don't remember exactly which page, but I swear I saw this somewhere. It was called something like "Shedinjamons" or something like it.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

I've seen this before. I don't remember exactly which page, but I swear I saw this somewhere. It was called something like "Shedinjamons" or something like it.

Oh darn. Where can I check for certain? If it isn’t my unique idea, I would love to support it!

 

[Akumeoy]

Wondermons:
Premise: The "Wonder Guard" effect is active on every Pokemon, but every Pokemon's base HP is reduced to 1.
Explanation: Pokemon can only take damage when they are hit by a super effective attack or by indirect damage. This is a rule of the meta; every Pokemon does NOT have the ability Wonder Guard on top of their own. Thus, abilities like Mold Breaker do not bypass the Wonder Guard effect. Furthermore, like Shedninja, every Pokemon has their base HP reduced to 1. Again like Shedninja, this is not like a normal base stat, and will ALWAYS stay at 1 hp; behaving just like Shedninja's hp behaves.
Banlist: Standard OU, but may unban trapping? Furthermore, I can see the abilities Sturdy, Magic Guard, Mold Breaker, and Magic Bounce being over centralizing (Sturdy in particular). I have my doubts that one or all of these abilities may have to be banned.
Viability:
*Hazards, Hazard Removal, and Hazard Prevention: Hazards, especially Steal Rocks, immediately KO and prevent most Pokemon to switch in without being instantly dropped. Thus, Stealth Rocks are extremely potent and centralizing. Removing hazards is limited to Defog, as Rapid Spin is Normal and not Super Effective to anything. Defoggers like Xatu and Sigilyph bring their abilities to help prevent hazards or be immune to hazards, respectively. Sigilyph especially is valuable as it can come into already placed Stealth Rocks and Defog easily. Fast Taunt and Stealth Rock users like Aerodactyl are equal parts offensive and protective, making a good lead. Mold Breaker Stealth Rock users like Excadrill and Pinsir can break through Magic Bounce users, and hit with dark attacks and even Rock Tomb, allowing them to outspeed and 2HKO Sigilyph.
*Hail and Sandstorm: These weathers can easily scare away many Pokemon that aren't immune to the indirect damage. Snow Warning users like Ninetails-Alola are fast and can come into an immune attack, and go for Encore or HP Fire for other Ice types.
*Good Coverage: Having many attacks that hit SE on a ton of the meta is great for always being on the offensive. Furthermore, base power, attacking stats, and defensive stats are all irrelevant. Instead, viability is centered towards valuable secondary effects like hitting multiple times to break a Focus Sash, lowering speed, or having a chance to inflict a status like poison or burn. Lastly, if movepool options are limited to a contactl attack of one type that is equal in always to another attack but is then non-contact, the non-contact attack should be taken as to avoid Rough Skin or Rocky Helmet and other contact negatives on Focus Sash or Sturdy Pokemon.

Questions:
Should sturdy be banned?
Is this plausible to be coded?
And does an OM like this already exist? Im super hyped theory crafting this!

I like the premise, but hazards seem super duper oppressive. If rocks get set up against you, and your hazard remover isn't already on the field, it's pretty much game over on the spot. Also, anything that takes damage from status or Leech Seed is virtually a liability, and Sturdy is a problem for obvious reasons...

I know this would stray just a little bit away from its Shedinja-inspired premise, but you could handle a lot of these issues by bumping up the standard HP value to 2. Everything would still get OHKOed by super-effective attacks, obviously, and passive damage would still be very dangerous, but there would be enough wiggle room that you could afford to take a single damage from miscellaneous status effects without getting KOed. Sturdy, naturally, would still be useful, but it wouldn't invalidate large chunks of the meta. I just think there would be far fewer auto-losses this way.

Another concern is Hidden Power, as it allows any Pokemon to OHKO any other Pokemon if the matchup is right, and the Hidden Power user has all of the advantage -- even if I use Protect and see that you've used Hidden Power against me, or I've switched something into a non-effective Hidden Power, I still have very little information about what the mon in front of me is capable of KOing. Anything can be tailor-made into a lure for anything else, which I would consider uncompetitive.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

I like the premise, but hazards seem super duper oppressive. If rocks get set up against you, and your hazard remover isn't already on the field, it's pretty much game over on the spot. Also, anything that takes damage from status or Leech Seed is virtually a liability, and Sturdy is a problem for obvious reasons...

I know this would stray just a little bit away from its Shedinja-inspired premise, but you could handle a lot of these issues by bumping up the standard HP value to 2. Everything would still get OHKOed by super-effective attacks, obviously, and passive damage would still be very dangerous, but there would be enough wiggle room that you could afford to take a single damage from miscellaneous status effects without getting KOed. Sturdy, naturally, would still be useful, but it wouldn't invalidate large chunks of the meta. I just think there would be far fewer auto-losses this way.

Another concern is Hidden Power, as it allows any Pokemon to OHKO any other Pokemon if the matchup is right, and the Hidden Power user has all of the advantage -- even if I use Protect and see that you've used Hidden Power against me, or I've switched something into a non-effective Hidden Power, I still have very little information about what the mon in front of me is capable of KOing. Anything can be tailor-made into a lure for anything else, which I would consider uncompetitive.

Hazards are without doubt centralizing. However, it just makes fast hazrsrd preventer leads or magic bounce users more vaible. And of course, magic guard. You can easily, safely, have 3 or so magic guard users. Sigiliph is great because it has defog too, and can pair well with Clefable. I do think while they can be a big deal, and teams may have many SR users, its still manageable.

While sturdy is great, its balanced by all the crazy ways of indirrect damage. It is a good way to of course balance other magic guard users, and also promotes a ton of more strats to ty to beat it.

The 2 hp is a bit weird and unfamiliar to myself and what I would imagine would be to most players, and it takes away the bite and risk. I love the idea that each turn theres a threat to lose a mon, or for SR to be up and you lost your defoger. Still, it is something to consider.

I completely agree about HP. It does become just that much more uncompetitive and too hard to predict. I wouldn’t mind banning it so mons are rewarded for having a good movepool, as well as to make scouting and predicting easier.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Regarding Wondermons, here’s just a couple teams / samples:
https://pokepast.es/a4b16b87fd753349
Here is a standard team that focuses on setting up Stealth Rocks with Mold Breaker Excadrill. It also has both Rock Tomb and Bulldoze, for solid SE coverage and, in trade offs where Excadrill is slower, can then outspeed. HP Dark is there for the many Psychic types I believe will be usefull, but Toxic or another attack could work.
Sigiliph comes in on SR of the other team sets it up and can Defog. Protect is there to scout SE attacks, as well as have it safely get burned so it can Psycho Shift it to, say, Sturdy and non Magic Guard mons. Magic Coat is to deflect Taunts, Encores, or possible repeated statuses.
Clef is a great mon in the teir, which only realistically goes down to Steel and Posion attacks. It has fire, dark, and ice coverage, but it can pretty much run anything. Lastly, swagger can be used for Magic Guard mons or Sturdy mons to have a chance to hit themselves; a way to bypass both abilities if lucky.
Zam’s fast Taunt can prevent SR or Defogs, and then just relies on its Focus Sash and coverage to dish out attacks.
Toge can use spiky sheild for indirect damage, as well as for scouting. U turn and nuzzle both have their utility, and encore means it can safely switch in to an immunity and, as long as it’s faster, stay safe. Safety goggles prevent it going down to Hail, but lum berry can be good against burn.
Lastly, Espeon functions as a last line of defence, and threatens the opponent when going for their own hazzards or statuses. It is also a fast, all out attacker meant to fill offensive holes in the team.

https://pokepast.es/0aef15fe4e23757c
Here is a hail spam team. Instead of going for its on hazards or having good SE coverage, it tries to use hail as the main means of offense, with Skill Swap Jynx and Smoochum being the stars. They can swap abilites with Magic Guard users, and watch them go down to hail.

I believe there are still a ton of different strats and viable mons, and kind of reminds me of Suicide Cup in a way. If anything, I think that Hidden Power should be the first to be banned.

 

[Tuthur]

Regarding Wondermons, here’s just a couple teams / samples:
https://pokepast.es/a4b16b87fd753349
Here is a standard team that focuses on setting up Stealth Rocks with Mold Breaker Excadrill. It also has both Rock Tomb and Bulldoze, for solid SE coverage and, in trade offs where Excadrill is slower, can then outspeed. HP Dark is there for the many Psychic types I believe will be usefull, but Toxic or another attack could work.
Sigiliph comes in on SR of the other team sets it up and can Defog. Protect is there to scout SE attacks, as well as have it safely get burned so it can Psycho Shift it to, say, Sturdy and non Magic Guard mons. Magic Coat is to deflect Taunts, Encores, or possible repeated statuses.
Clef is a great mon in the teir, which only realistically goes down to Steel and Posion attacks. It has fire, dark, and ice coverage, but it can pretty much run anything. Lastly, swagger can be used for Magic Guard mons or Sturdy mons to have a chance to hit themselves; a way to bypass both abilities if lucky.
Zam’s fast Taunt can prevent SR or Defogs, and then just relies on its Focus Sash and coverage to dish out attacks.
Toge can use spiky sheild for indirect damage, as well as for scouting. U turn and nuzzle both have their utility, and encore means it can safely switch in to an immunity and, as long as it’s faster, stay safe. Safety goggles prevent it going down to Hail, but lum berry can be good against burn.
Lastly, Espeon functions as a last line of defence, and threatens the opponent when going for their own hazzards or statuses. It is also a fast, all out attacker meant to fill offensive holes in the team.

https://pokepast.es/0aef15fe4e23757c
Here is a hail spam team. Instead of going for its on hazards or having good SE coverage, it tries to use hail as the main means of offense, with Skill Swap Jynx and Smoochum being the stars. They can swap abilites with Magic Guard users, and watch them go down to hail.

I believe there are still a ton of different strats and viable mons, and kind of reminds me of Suicide Cup in a way. If anything, I think that Hidden Power should be the first to be banned.

I alreadt suggest this: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-workshop.3598275/post-7742078
And it got rejected for the reason explained in this post: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-workshop.3598275/post-7755875

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Regarding Wondermons, here’s just a couple teams / samples:
https://pokepast.es/a4b16b87fd753349
Here is a standard team that focuses on setting up Stealth Rocks with Mold Breaker Excadrill. It also has both Rock Tomb and Bulldoze, for solid SE coverage and, in trade offs where Excadrill is slower, can then outspeed. HP Dark is there for the many Psychic types I believe will be usefull, but Toxic or another attack could work.
Sigiliph comes in on SR of the other team sets it up and can Defog. Protect is there to scout SE attacks, as well as have it safely get burned so it can Psycho Shift it to, say, Sturdy and non Magic Guard mons. Magic Coat is to deflect Taunts, Encores, or possible repeated statuses.
Clef is a great mon in the teir, which only realistically goes down to Steel and Posion attacks. It has fire, dark, and ice coverage, but it can pretty much run anything. Lastly, swagger can be used for Magic Guard mons or Sturdy mons to have a chance to hit themselves; a way to bypass both abilities if lucky.
Zam’s fast Taunt can prevent SR or Defogs, and then just relies on its Focus Sash and coverage to dish out attacks.
Toge can use spiky sheild for indirect damage, as well as for scouting. U turn and nuzzle both have their utility, and encore means it can safely switch in to an immunity and, as long as it’s faster, stay safe. Safety goggles prevent it going down to Hail, but lum berry can be good against burn.
Lastly, Espeon functions as a last line of defence, and threatens the opponent when going for their own hazzards or statuses. It is also a fast, all out attacker meant to fill offensive holes in the team.

https://pokepast.es/0aef15fe4e23757c
Here is a hail spam team. Instead of going for its on hazards or having good SE coverage, it tries to use hail as the main means of offense, with Skill Swap Jynx and Smoochum being the stars. They can swap abilites with Magic Guard users, and watch them go down to hail.

I believe there are still a ton of different strats and viable mons, and kind of reminds me of Suicide Cup in a way. If anything, I think that Hidden Power should be the first to be banned.

Regards to banning Stealth Rocks:

This hazard alone centralizes the meta to such an extreme, that while I believe it is still playable and has its weaknesses (fast taunts, magic bounce, magic guard, magic coat, defog, and of course Sigilyph), it makes an unexaggerated 99% of all pokemon immediately knocked out on switch in. This is probably too much power in the hands of a single move, and while I set forth to make a meta that is fast paced and rewards a short amount of integral plays, it could be too dumbed down and uncompetitive relying on the successes of this moves. It also gives incentive to run a team chalk full of Magic Guard users just to avoid it, and teams without this strat then would cling on to early prevention or relying heavily on Sigilyph (only mon that can switch into SR and then defog).

For the other hazards, Spikes and Toxic Spikes at least have a lot less natural users and less affected victims (flying types, levitate users, and all can be bounced back by Magic Bounce mons). Thus, hazards in the form of spikes can still be great an devastating, while still having more than enough counters and allows room for more sets and mons to be ran without the fear of entry hazards getting the KO right away. For example, Overcoat Mandibuz can function as a great natural aversion to common inderect forms of damage. It isnt as good as Magic Bounce useres, but without SR, it gains similar viability.

Allowing stealth rocks easily downplays a ton of possible strategies, while only strengthens the viability of a much smaller, centralized group of sets. There is also the issue that banning stealth rocks allows sturdy mons to get a free pass, but all sturdy mons outside of Skarmary are weak to spikes, and would have to sacrifice their safety goggles or lum berry to run air balloon to be immune to spikes. So, if the niche and possibly anti meta sets are completely unviable because hazard prevention is too hard to handle, then stealth rocks should be banned. Otherwise, each team that lacks a heavy amount of magic guard users should then dedicate sets for hazzard prevention / removal so that their other mons aren’t affected.

As for now, I’d love some further discussion, input, or testing before banning.

 

[earl]

Regards to banning Stealth Rocks:

This hazard alone centralizes the meta to such an extreme, that while I believe it is still playable and has its weaknesses (fast taunts, magic bounce, magic guard, magic coat, defog, and of course Sigilyph), it makes an unexaggerated 99% of all pokemon immediately knocked out on switch in. This is probably too much power in the hands of a single move, and while I set forth to make a meta that is fast paced and rewards a short amount of integral plays, it could be too dumbed down and uncompetitive relying on the successes of this moves. It also gives incentive to run a team chalk full of Magic Guard users just to avoid it, and teams without this strat then would cling on to early prevention or relying heavily on Sigilyph (only mon that can switch into SR and then defog).

For the other hazards, Spikes and Toxic Spikes at least have a lot less natural users and less affected victims (flying types, levitate users, and all can be bounced back by Magic Bounce mons). Thus, hazards in the form of spikes can still be great an devastating, while still having more than enough counters and allows room for more sets and mons to be ran without the fear of entry hazards getting the KO right away. For example, Overcoat Mandibuz can function as a great natural aversion to common inderect forms of damage. It isnt as good as Magic Bounce useres, but without SR, it gains similar viability.

Allowing stealth rocks easily downplays a ton of possible strategies, while only strengthens the viability of a much smaller, centralized group of sets. There is also the issue that banning stealth rocks allows sturdy mons to get a free pass, but all sturdy mons outside of Skarmary are weak to spikes, and would have to sacrifice their safety goggles or lum berry to run air balloon to be immune to spikes. So, if the niche and possibly anti meta sets are completely unviable because hazard prevention is too hard to handle, then stealth rocks should be banned. Otherwise, each team that lacks a heavy amount of magic guard users should then dedicate sets for hazzard prevention / removal so that their other mons aren’t affected.

As for now, I’d love some further discussion, input, or testing before banning.

Pursuit gets past Sigi, Mold Breaker+Mental Herb gets past any lead. Totally in favor of the setter

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

I alreadt suggest this: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-workshop.3598275/post-7742078
And it got rejected for the reason explained in this post: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-workshop.3598275/post-7755875

Darn, just saw this :/

Shame, maybe if the Wonder Guard effects workes more so as an inherent mechanic rather than an ability, it would prosper? Hopeful thinking I know, oh well

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Pursuit gets past Sigi, Mold Breaker+Mental Herb gets past any lead. Totally in favor of the setter

With mental herb, the setter can die in one hit by an attack np.
Take this set:
Aerodactyl @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Sandstorm
- Taunt
- Bulldoze / Defog
- Pursuit

Aerodactyl has synergy with sandstorm and bulldoze, while being able to pursuit most magic guard users and still taunt or even stay in and defog.

Leads like Exadril, other Aerodactyles, Mega Diance, and Lycanrock all have to worry for it

 

[earl]

With mental herb, the setter can die in one hit by an attack np.

I doesn't matter if you die, you just need to outspeed and set rocks and mental herb ensures that

 

[Tuthur]

Darn, just saw this :/

Shame, maybe if the Wonder Guard effects workes more so as an inherent mechanic rather than an ability, it would prosper? Hopeful thinking I know, oh well

Maybe, you can try. Also since someone else brought the same idea as I did I want to share my thoughts about some potential bans:
-Hazards: I don't see any reason to keep something that auto-kills you. There is no safe counterplay, you can't prepare to every hazard setters in order to beat them: hazard setters can beat Magic Bounce user if they have Mold Breaker or Skill Swap, most magic guard Pokémon are weak to Pursuit, Defog can be prevented by Taunt (and everything is immune to Rapid Spin). Hazards are to much centralizing and will turn every game into: do my hazard removers beat its hazard setters? Which unhealthy and not fun. BAN
-OU-banlist: Why? Uber have been banned for their insane power and bulk, neither are irrelevant in this metagame. UNBAN
-Trapping: Well Dugtrio can trap and OHKO the majority of the Pokémon thanks to its access to both Sandstorm and Magnitude. KEEP BAN
-Focus Sash: It completely invalidates lure (think Hidden Power) which is imo not fun, and turns Magic Guard users broken. BAN
-Protect (and clones): see upper but better. BAN
-Sturdy: It allows you to survive to every hit, but it doesn't protect the user from Hail, Sandstorm, Toxic, Burn, etc... It's imo as balanced as Magic Guard. DO NOT BAN
-Rocky Helmet: It's basically permanent Destiny Bond on every Magic Guard user. ON THE FENCE
-Confuse inducing move: Basically OHKO move in this metagame. BAN
-OHKO-move: Every move is already an OHKO move. UNBAN
-Baton Pass: Only form of momentum, also who cares about boosts? UNBAN

I also encourange you to read this post: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-workshop.3598275/post-7742078 where I give more informations.

Also if some are interessed that for I made a role compendium:

Hide

Weather
Hail Setter:

(Snow Warning)

Sandstorm Setter:

(Sand Stream)

Primal Weather:

Weather Immunity:

(Air Lock/Cloud Nine)

(Overcoat)

(Magic Guard)

Hail Immunity:

Sandstorm Immunity:

Status
Corrosion:

Burn:

(Psycho Shift)

(Will-O-Wisp)
Leech Seed:

Status Immunity:

(Magic Bounce)

(Magic Guard)

(Misty Surge)
Toxic Immunity:

Burn Immunity:

Leech Seed Immunity:

Hazards
Defog:

Not Grounded Pokémon:

Toxic Spikes:

Spikes:

Other
Protean:

Pursuit:

Klutz+Trick:

Iron Barbs/Rough Skin:

Taunt:

Gastro Acid/Skill Swap: