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Are you tired of Focus Blast missing so much? Do you find yourself never caring about moves' secondary effects, or want them to activate more often? Do you want a Down B from Dr. Mario that kills from center stage at 60%? Say no more fam.
Metagame Premise: All moves can be adjusted to have different damage output, accuracy, secondary effect chances, critical hit ratios, etc. This allows moves to have different and more versatile applications than usual.
Exchange Rate: 10 Base Power = 10 Accuracy = 10% of Secondary Effect = 1 stage Critical Hit Ratio = [unknown amount] Recoil Damage
Potential Bans and Threats: No move will be able to boost its Secondary Effect chance greater than 30%. Inferno and Zap Cannon will either need clauses or outright bans. No move will be able to boost its Base Power greater than 30.
Questions for the Community: Will allowing custom moves allow the meta to become more diverse, or will it be too broken? How should status moves be changed akin to the exchange rate of damaging moves? Should the limits for boosting qualities be changed? Should two-turn moves be altered so they can be less powerful / accurate / etc but work in one turn like normal moves? Should flinch chances be able to be raised? Lowering flinch chances seems balanced but raising them might be too broken. Should Priority be able to be altered? I think it would be insanely busted, but whatever, it's another option.
Examples:
Stone Edge: -1 stage Critical Hit ratio, +10 Accuracy -> 100 BP, 90 Acc, no secondary effects
Focus Blast: -10% secondary effect, -10 Base Power, +20 Accuracy -> 110 BP, 90 Acc, no secondary effects
Wild Charge: -5 Base Power, -5 Accuracy, +No recoil (or reduced recoil) -> 90 BP, 95 Acc, no secondary effects
Crunch: -5 Base Power, -5 Accuracy, +10% secondary effect -> 75 BP, 95 Acc, 20% chance to drop foe's Defense
Akumeoy I don't know how this would be coded in. I think each move for each Pokemon would have codes that determine respective aspects such as damage and accuracy, and this would be able to be altered. It would be rather complicated since there will be a full team of Pokemon whose moves can each be altered differently.
Are you tired of Focus Blast missing so much? Do you find yourself never caring about moves' secondary effects, or want them to activate more often? Do you want a Down B from Dr. Mario that kills from center stage at 60%? Say no more fam.
Metagame Premise: All moves can be adjusted to have different damage output, accuracy, secondary effect chances, critical hit ratios, etc. This allows moves to have different and more versatile applications than usual.
Exchange Rate: 10 Base Power = 10 Accuracy = 10% of Secondary Effect = 1 stage Critical Hit Ratio = [unknown amount] Recoil Damage
Potential Bans and Threats: No move will be able to boost its Secondary Effect chance greater than 30%. Inferno and Zap Cannon will either need clauses or outright bans. No move will be able to boost its Base Power greater than 30.
Questions for the Community: Will allowing custom moves allow the meta to become more diverse, or will it be too broken? How should status moves be changed akin to the exchange rate of damaging moves? Should the limits for boosting qualities be changed? Should two-turn moves be altered so they can be less powerful / accurate / etc but work in one turn like normal moves? Should flinch chances be able to be raised? Lowering flinch chances seems balanced but raising them might be too broken. Should Priority be able to be altered? I think it would be insanely busted, but whatever, it's another option.
Examples:
Stone Edge: -1 stage Critical Hit ratio, +10 Accuracy -> 100 BP, 90 Acc, no secondary effects
Focus Blast: -10% secondary effect, -10 Base Power, +20 Accuracy -> 110 BP, 90 Acc, no secondary effects
Wild Charge: -5 Base Power, -5 Accuracy, +No recoil (or reduced recoil) -> 90 BP, 95 Acc, no secondary effects
Crunch: -5 Base Power, +10% secondary effect -> 75 BP, 100 Acc, 20% chance to drop foe's Defense
Putting aside for a moment whether this would be desirable, how would a player go about delineating in the teambuilder which moves are adjusted and how?
I'd suggest that to reduce the amount of luck involved, both players get rolled the same number -- this will help reduce potential imbalance caused by luck. For example, if your team lost all their items, while your opponent who has no multi-stage evos got rolled 5, which doesn't harm their team at all, wouldn't it be a bit unfair?
The problem here is that bringing a whole team of pokemon without pre evolutions SIGNIFIGANTLY limits your options, it is possible to have teams that take advantage of certain, maybe even all rolls. But when you do that, you leave your team very vulnerable. Let us take your example for a second, would your loss of a choice scarf really damage your chances against a team of kecleons? The huge threats in this mode would not be those unaffected by a roll, but those that can work around it.
The Battle Arcade was one of my favorite battle facilities, and this reminds me of it a lot. Maybe there should be options for random weather or terrain, or for Pokémon to start the battle with a status condition, with half HP, or with no PP on one of their moves? Just some ideas to consider.
I love your ideas! Though the half hp and random pp loss is underwhelmed by the loss of a pokemon or status moves, i could totally see giving every member on a team a status condition. Though i would like to keep it at 6 (you know, cause it is like a die), this is a wonderfull addition if i ever need it.
First of all, I apologize for the mistakes that will contain this post, I'm French and my English is ... like to say ... not very good. I therefore rely on the reliability of Google Translation to help me.
Premise:
This metagame fuses the mechanics of Stabmon, AAA, Camomons and Tier Shift to create a metagame where each Pokémon could find its place.
Explanations:
A Pokémon gains a Base Stat boost and / or a new talent and / or new STAB and / or the possibility to change type according to their tier. And there, you will tell me that it is too much and that it will become too complicated. To which I answer you, take the time to read until the end how is orchestrated things ;)
This metagame will be based on Uber or OU to choose.
Depending on the tier in which the Pokémon is ranked, it will gain some things:
- Uber: They do not win anything.
- OU/UUBL: They earn a STAB.
- UU/RUBL: Their stats are boosted by 10% and they gain a STAB.
- RU/NUBL: Their stats are boosted by 20%, they gain STABs and a new talent.
-NU/PUBL: Their stat are boosted by 30%, they gain STABs and a new talent anda new type.
-PU/NFE: Their stat are boosted by 40%, they gain STAB and a new talent and new types.
Why this mechanics ? In order to create a metagame where both PU and Uber Pokémon can find their place. Indeed, the problem of the Tier Shift is that the stats boost is not well proportioned. It makes the Pokémon RU / NU / PU particularly strong enough to almost completely eclipse Pokémon from the higher tiers. Here, the stats boost is proportional to this one while also depending on the tier. Nevertheless, the Pokémon keeps their orientation. That is, a Pokémon with weak defensive stats like Zangoose will not end up with Bulky Sweeper stats like TS. The boosts maximize the strengths and reduce the weak points, it does not make them disappear. So there is no big imbalance between Uber Pokémon / OU and those of the sub-thirds. As these boosts are not enough to make the Pokémon sub-thirds very attractive, the other mechanical remedies this.
But with the very high stats this mechanics is too good, is not it?
Take an example, Rampardos has 165 of BS in Atk, in TS as he is PU, he will now have 205 of BS in Atk. With 40% boost, he will have 231 BS in Atk with this mechanism. This gives a gap of 26 which is indeed consistent. Assuming that we play Adaptability LO / Band, it is more than enough for 2HKO a Pokémon like Ferrothorn full defense with Head Smash.
To prevent too violent Pokémon like this, set up a markup ? For example, from 130 (or more) of BS, the boost can only be a maximum of 40. This will limit the strength of Pokémon such as Rampardos, Escavalier, Ursaring, Kingler, Hoopa, etc ...
Is the type gain for Pokémon in NU / PU not too advantageous? Not that much. Indeed, the STAB that we can play are determined by the initial type of Pokémon. It is therefore not necessarily possible to conciliate the STAB and the type chosen.
How is the type changed ? Like Camomons for PU Pokémon. The difference is for Pokémon in NU, it can only change one of their types (if there are several). If the Pokémon is not shiny, the type 1 is determined by the first attack. If it is shiny, it is the type 2 that is determined by the first attack. The other type if it exists remains unchanged. If the first move is of the same type as the user, the user wins the type of the second move.
For mega-evolution ? The tier taken into account for boosts and other gains and that of mega-evolution is not Pokémon.
Some interesting sets:
Landorus-Therian@Choice Scarf
Talent: Intimidate
Draco-Ascent
Earthquake
Stone Edge
U-Turn
Landorus win a good Fly STAB. He can also used Roost/Shore Up to a défensive version
Terrakion@Rockium Z
Talent: Justified
Close Combat
Diamond Storm
Earthquake
Sword Dance
Terrakion gets a Rock STAB capable of causing big damage and doubling his defense with a 50% chance. 108x1,1 = 118.8, so it now outspeed Pokémon like Lati@s, Serperior, Mega-Metagross, etc ...
Gollisopod@Choice Band / Life Orb
Talent: Primordial Sea
Liquidation
Leech Life
Aqua-Jet
Knock Off / Drill Run / Sword Dance
As in Mix Mega, Golisopod gets rid of his bad talent in favor of Primordial Sea. He becomes a formidable Bulky Sweeper.
Miltank@Toxic Orb
Talent: Soin Poison
Body Slam / Facade
Curse
Earthquake / Stealth Rock
Milk Drink
With his new BS (124/104/137/52/91/130), Milktank becomes an excellent Staller. But that's not all, with the type Normal / Ghost it perfectly blocks Pokémon like Marshadow, Mega-Beedrill and others. In addition, Poison Heal immunizes to all statuts and allows it to place easily.
Endowed with a type offering him many resistances, Shiinotic had however not good stats and bad talent not allowing him to enjoy. Now he gains some bulk (84/63/112/126/140/42) allowing him to stall effectively. With Prankster he can put a dangerous Pokémon to sleep before he hits. Thick Fat allows him to block Pokémon like Primo-Groudon and Primo-Kyogre.
Tell me what you think of mechanics ! =) Are the boosts not too important ? The change type AND talent is not it too advantageous in addition to boosts for Pokémon in NU and PU ? Other banners to suggest ?
Is it too complicated to code ? The principle works essentially with existing rules on which we just put activation conditions.
First of all, I apologize for the mistakes that will contain this post, I'm French and my English is ... like to say ... not very good. I therefore rely on the reliability of Google Translation to help me.
Premise:
This metagame fuses the mechanics of Stabmon, AAA, Camomons and Tier Shift to create a metagame where each Pokémon could find its place.
Explanations:
A Pokémon gains a Base Stat boost and / or a new talent and / or new STAB and / or the possibility to change type according to their tier. And there, you will tell me that it is too much and that it will become too complicated. To which I answer you, take the time to read until the end how is orchestrated things ;)
This metagame will be based on Uber or OU to choose.
Depending on the tier in which the Pokémon is ranked, it will gain some things:
- Uber: They do not win anything.
- OU/UUBL: They earn a STAB.
- UU/RUBL: Their stats are boosted by 10% and they win a STAB.
- RU/NUBL: Their stats are boosted by 20%, they win STABs and a new talent.
-NU/PUBL: Their stat are boosted by 30%, they win STABs and a new talent anda new type.
-PU/NFE: Their stat are boosted by 40%, they win STAB and a new talent and new types.
Why this mechanics ? In order to create a metagame where both PU and Uber Pokémon can find their place. Indeed, the problem of the Tier Shift is that the stats boost is not well proportioned. It makes the Pokémon RU / NU / PU particularly strong enough to almost completely eclipse Pokémon from the higher tiers. Here, the stats boost is proportional to this one while also depending on the tier. Nevertheless, the Pokémon keeps their orientation. That is, a Pokémon with weak defensive stats like Zangoose will not end up with Bulky Sweeper stats like TS. The boosts maximize the strengths and reduce the weak points, it does not make them disappear. So there is no big imbalance between Uber Pokémon / OU and those of the sub-thirds. As these boosts are not enough to make the Pokémon sub-thirds very attractive, the other mechanical remedies this.
But with the very high stats this mechanics is too good, is not it?
Take an example, Rampardos has 165 of BS in Atk, in TS as he is PU, he will now have 205 of BS in Atk. With 40% boost, he will have 231 BS in Atk with this mechanism. This gives a gap of 26 which is indeed consistent. Assuming that we play Adaptability LO / Band, it is more than enough for 2HKO a Pokémon like Ferrothorn full defense with Head Smash.
To prevent too violent Pokémon like this, set up a markup ? For example, from 130 (or more) of BS, the boost can only be a maximum of 40. This will limit the strength of Pokémon such as Rampardos, Escavalier, Ursaring, Kingler, Hoopa, etc ...
Is the type gain for Pokémon in NU / PU not too advantageous? Not that much. Indeed, the STAB that we can play are determined by the initial type of Pokémon. It is therefore not necessarily possible to conciliate the STAB and the type chosen.
How is the type changed ? Like Camomons for PU Pokémon. The difference is for Pokémon in NU, it can only change one of their types (if there are several). If the Pokémon is not shiny, the type 1 is determined by the first attack. If it is shiny, it is the type 2 that is determined by the first attack. The other type if it exists remains unchanged. If the first move is of the same type as the user, the user wins the type of the second move.
For mega-evolution ? The tier taken into account for boosts and other gains and that of mega-evolution is not Pokémon.
Some interesting sets:
Landorus-Therian@Choice Scarf
Talent: Intimidate
Draco-Ascent
Earthquake
Stone Edge
U-Turn
Landorus win a good Fly STAB. He can also used Roost/Shore Up to a défensive version
Terrakion@Rockium Z
Talent: Justified
Close Combat
Diamond Storm
Earthquake
Sword Dance
Terrakion gets a Rock STAB capable of causing big damage and doubling his defense with a 50% chance. 108x1,1 = 118.8, so it now outspeed Pokémon like Lati@s, Serperior, Mega-Metagross, etc ...
Gollisopod@Choice Band / Life Orb
Talent: Primordial Sea
Liquidation
Leech Life
Aqua-Jet
Knock Off / Drill Run / Sword Dance
As in Mix Mega, Golisopod gets rid of his bad talent in favor of Primordial Sea. He becomes a formidable Bulky Sweeper.
Miltank@Toxic Orb
Talent: Soin Poison
Body Slam / Facade
Curse
Earthquake / Stealth Rock
Milk Drink
With his new BS (124/104/137/52/91/130), Milktank becomes an excellent Staller. But that's not all, with the type Normal / Ghost it perfectly blocks Pokémon like Marshadow, Mega-Beedrill and others. In addition, Poison Heal immunizes to all statuts and allows it to place easily.
Endowed with a type offering him many resistances, Shiinotic had however not good stats and bad talent not allowing him to enjoy. Now he gains some bulk (84/63/112/126/140/42) allowing him to stall effectively. With Prankster he can put a dangerous Pokémon to sleep before he hits. Thick Fat allows him to block Pokémon like Primo-Groudon and Primo-Kyogre.
Tell me what you think of mechanics! =) Are the boosts not too important? The change type AND talent is not it too advantageous in addition to boosts for Pokémon in NU and PU? Other banners to suggest?
Is it too complicated to code? The principle works essentially with existing rules on which we just put activation conditions.
That's kinda like Tier Shift on steroïds, which is pretty cool Also I understand your struggle to speak in english, my first language is french too ;—;. My recommendation would be to cange the "win" word in the explanation section by "gain".
I'm aware that a Mix and Mega UU currently exists, but I feel like since all it does is ban the Pokemon with top usage, it doesnt really focus on a proper tier border, and create *enough* of a rift between OU and UU to allow for a more varied meta. So I wanted to ask about if people are interested in seeing an alternative MnM UU, with a larger gap between the current meta, to allow for a greater deal of creativity and variety in regular play.
Banlist: All Pokemon that are considered Uber Tier naturally aren't allowed, anything currently not allowed to mega evolve, as well as all Pokemon that are considered B- Tier or Higher on the MnM Viability Ranking.
Current Suspected Exceptions:
Aegislash (Being Allowed)
Blaziken (Being Allowed)
Tapu Koko (Being Banned (Most Likely))
Gliscor (Being Allowed, but not with Venusaurite or Sablenite)
Scarmory (Being Allowed, but not with Sceptilite, Sablenite, or Blue Orb)
Stakataka (Being Banned)
Archeops (Being Banned)
Kyurem (Being Banned)
Cresselia (Being Banned)
Also I want to try avoiding banning Mega Stones in their entirety, and would rather ban specific combinations of Pokemon with certain stones (Like with Gliscor) and in time maybe it can go the other way too, that currently banned stones like Pidgeotite, and Mawilite can become allowed with certain Pokemon, and open the door for new creative possibilities, but we'll get there when we get there.
I love your ideas! Though the half hp and random pp loss is underwhelmed by the loss of a pokemon or status moves, i could totally see giving every member on a team a status condition. Though i would like to keep it at 6 (you know, cause it is like a die), this is a wonderfull addition if i ever need it.
10-sided and 20-sided dice are also a thing, so adding more effects is an option. Perhaps it could be weighted towards less harsh things, so things like losing a Pokémon outright or having all of your Pokémon devolved are rare occurrences.
I'm aware that a Mix and Mega UU currently exists, but I feel like since all it does is ban the Pokemon with top usage, it doesnt really focus on a proper tier border, and create *enough* of a rift between OU and UU to allow for a more varied meta. So I wanted to ask about if people are interested in seeing an alternative MnM UU, with a larger gap between the current meta, to allow for a greater deal of creativity and variety in regular play.
Banlist: All Pokemon that are considered Uber Tier naturally aren't allowed, anything currently not allowed to mega evolve, as well as all Pokemon that are considered B- Tier or Higher on the MnM Viability Ranking.
Current Suspected Exceptions:
Aegislash (Being Allowed)
Blaziken (Being Allowed)
Tapu Koko (Being Banned (Most Likely))
Gliscor (Being Allowed, but not with Venusaurite or Sablenite)
Scarmory (Being Allowed, but not with Sceptilite, Sablenite, or Blue Orb)
Stakataka (Being Banned)
Archeops (Being Banned)
Kyurem (Being Banned)
Cresselia (Being Banned)
Also I want to try avoiding banning Mega Stones in their entirety, and would rather ban specific combinations of Pokemon with certain stones (Like with Gliscor) and in time maybe it can go the other way too, that currently banned stones like Pidgeotite, and Mawilite can become allowed with certain Pokemon, and open the door for new creative possibilities, but we'll get there when we get there.
Hmm. Although I like the idea, metas that involve complex bans almost never succeed. I’m pretty sure (and you can correct me if I’m wrong) that the MnM UU meta follows the same tiering policy as the actual OU/UU tiering policy, which is entirely based around just getting rid of the Pokémon with top usage.
Also, I thought of another thing that Bad n’ Boosted will have to deal with, if only as a meme.
Blissey has base 110 Speed, Serene Grace, and access to Double Slap, which it can combine with King’s Rock.
i would like to discuss the revival of a popular gen 6 OM, Megamons (note- this is not my om originally and i have no idea wether or not this has already been submitted before)
Metagame Premise: An Ubers Based metagame with three changes
1. More than 1 Mega Evolution can be used on a team (you could have a full team of 6 mega evolutions if you wanted)
2. Mega Pokemon can be used without their mega stones, meaning you could switch in a mega evolved pokemon without having to mega-evolve it.
3. Mega Pokemon can now hold items besides their respective Mega Stones
Potential Banlist (using the gen 6 banlist): This metagame follows the current Ubers banlist and clauses, with a few extra things being banned. Mega Gengar, Mega Mewtwo-X, Mega Mewtwo-Y, Primal Groudon, and Primal Kyogre can only be used by mega evolving the base pokemon. (ex: you have to use Gengarite Gengar in order to get Gengar-Mega)
Questions for the community:
- Should Necrozma-Ultra be allowed to be run without using a Necrozma form + Ultranecrozium Z?
I feel like this question should be split into two parts, with the answer to the first being more important.
1. Does this change fit with the concept of Megamons?
2. Would Necrozma-Ultra be too broken without having to run Necrozma form + Ultranecrozium Z?
i would like to discuss the revival of a popular gen 6 OM, Megamons (note- this is not my om originally and i have no idea wether or not this has already been submitted before)
Metagame Premise: An Ubers Based metagame with three changes
1. More than 1 Mega Evolution can be used on a team (you could have a full team of 6 mega evolutions if you wanted)
2. Mega Pokemon can be used without their mega stones, meaning you could switch in a mega evolved pokemon without having to mega-evolve it.
3. Mega Pokemon can now hold items besides their respective Mega Stones
Potential Banlist (using the gen 6 banlist): This metagame follows the current Ubers banlist and clauses, with a few extra things being banned. Mega Gengar, Mega Mewtwo-X, Mega Mewtwo-Y, Primal Groudon, and Primal Kyogre can only be used by mega evolving the base pokemon. (ex: you have to use Gengarite Gengar in order to get Gengar-Mega)
Questions for the community:
- Should Necrozma-Ultra be allowed to be run without using a Necrozma form + Ultranecrozium Z?
I feel like this question should be split into two parts, with the answer to the first being more important.
1. Does this change fit with the concept of Megamons?
2. Would Necrozma-Ultra be too broken without having to run Necrozma form + Ultranecrozium Z?
First of all, pardon me for the possible errors of English, for this is not my language.
I have been playing Pokémon since 1999 in the former gameboy and competitively since the old Shoddy Battle and have returned shortly; I decided to create this account to open a discussion about an idea I had with some friends:
CROSSOVER GEN
What is it?
Basically a new metagame where players can choose any of the existing generations (RB, BW, XY and etc) with their respective mechanics; for example, a player may choose to play RS mechanics against another player using GS or XY mechanics.
It's worth everything, such as movements and Pokémon available (in RB for example only the original 151 Pokémon and only the movements of that generation will be available), as well as the movements and effects will be according to the chosen generation. Items only from GS and etc.
Team preview in all generations, because that existed in the Stadium of the N64.
What did you guys think of my idea of generation vs generation? (each with its respective mechanics).
Metagame's premise: A new metagame where players can choose any of the existing generations (RB, BW, XY and etc) with their respective mechanics; for example, the player may choose to play RS mechanics against another player using GS or XY mechanics.
Potential bans and threats: It will be an OU metagame, so the UBERS will be banned according to the generation chosen by the player, for example: Blaziken can not be chosen because the player chose BW, but his opponent may be using because he chose RS, where Blaziken is UU
Questions for the community: Is Crossgen a good name for metagame?
Metagame's premise: A new metagame where players can choose any of the existing generations (RB, BW, XY and etc) with their respective mechanics; for example, the player may choose to play RS mechanics against another player using GS or XY mechanics.
Potential bans and threats: It will be an OU metagame, so the UBERS will be banned according to the generation chosen by the player, for example: Blaziken can not be chosen because the player chose BW, but his opponent may be using because he chose RS, where Blaziken is UU
Questions for the community: Is Crossgen a good name for metagame?
1. This would be an absolute nightmare to try and code, since we'd have to include the different mechanics of each generation and find some way to indicate what generation each player wants to use. It can't be done automatically by just saying "scan the person's team and use the items, Pokémon, moves, abilities and so forth to determine what generation this team is built in", for several reasons, including the fact that a Gen 7 team can theoretically be built using only Pokémon, moves, items, etc. from a single generation (any from Gen 3 onward), so we'd have to either somehow code a way to do it automatically (an enormous task) or have the player somehow select it manually, which would require some kind of feature in the teambuilder to do that (an even more enormous task).
2. Gen 1 is so different from Gen 7 that the two could never properly interact. In fact, Gen 1, Gen 2 and Gen 3 are so wildly different from every gen after them, and from each other, that they're basically three completely separate games.
3. Mechanics interactions are going to be hideous. How will Gens 1 through 5 handle the Fairy type? What happens when a Bug move from a gen other than 1 is used against a Gen 1 Poison-type? Or a Dark-type move from Gen 7 is used against a Gen 5 Steel-type? What about vice versa, when a Dark-type move from an older gen hits a Gen 6 or above Steel-type? What about the weather mechanics across different gens? Damage scaling? The physical-special split? What happens when you use Trick to give a Gen 2 Pokémon an item that didn't exist until Gen 5?
4. If we're coding Gen 1 mechanics, we have to include all the garbage ones, and all the weird glitches, but how do those mesh with any other gen? Is the critical-hit chance based on Speed, but only for Gen 1 teams? What about playing against them? Does Leech Seed damage stack if your opponent is badly poisoned? If a Gen 1 Pokémon freezes a Pokémon from another gen, are they frozen forever?
5. What about the power creep? Greninja was banned to Ubers just last generation, and now they've given it a new form that's even stronger. Hoopa-U was banned last gen but it dropped to UU at one point in Gen 7. And these are just examples from one generation ago—how is something like a team from Gen 1, where some of the best Pokémon were Tauros and Exeggutor, going to compete against a team from Gen 7, where nearly everything is better than Tauros and Exeggutor? Is there any wallbreaker from a gen before Fairy moves that can punch through something like Mega Sableye (which was also banned to Ubers last gen)? Is there anything in Gen 4 that's bulky enough to take even one hit from Mega Mawile (which was, surprise surprise, ALSO banned to Ubers last gen)? How are you going to stop setup sweepers if your team is from a gen where things like Unaware, Sucker Punch and the Focus Sash haven't been invented yet?
I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think this idea is workable. The gens are just too different, and people will just end up always choosing the most recent gen because of the power creep. I just don't see this one working out.
1. This would be an absolute nightmare to try and code, since we'd have to include the different mechanics of each generation and find some way to indicate what generation each player wants to use. It can't be done automatically by just saying "scan the person's team and use the items, Pokémon, moves, abilities and so forth to determine what generation this team is built in", for several reasons, including the fact that a Gen 7 team can theoretically be built using only Pokémon, moves, items, etc. from a single generation (any from Gen 3 onward), so we'd have to either somehow code a way to do it automatically (an enormous task) or have the player somehow select it manually, which would require some kind of feature in the teambuilder to do that (an even more enormous task).
2. Gen 1 is so different from Gen 7 that the two could never properly interact. In fact, Gen 1, Gen 2 and Gen 3 are so wildly different from every gen after them, and from each other, that they're basically three completely separate games.
3. Mechanics interactions are going to be hideous. How will Gens 1 through 5 handle the Fairy type? What happens when a Bug move from a gen other than 1 is used against a Gen 1 Poison-type? Or a Dark-type move from Gen 7 is used against a Gen 5 Steel-type? What about vice versa, when a Dark-type move from an older gen hits a Gen 6 or above Steel-type? What about the weather mechanics across different gens? Damage scaling? The physical-special split? What happens when you use Trick to give a Gen 2 Pokémon an item that didn't exist until Gen 5?
4. If we're coding Gen 1 mechanics, we have to include all the garbage ones, and all the weird glitches, but how do those mesh with any other gen? Is the critical-hit chance based on Speed, but only for Gen 1 teams? What about playing against them? Does Leech Seed damage stack if your opponent is badly poisoned? If a Gen 1 Pokémon freezes a Pokémon from another gen, are they frozen forever?
5. What about the power creep? Greninja was banned to Ubers just last generation, and now they've given it a new form that's even stronger. Hoopa-U was banned last gen but it dropped to UU at one point in Gen 7. And these are just examples from one generation ago—how is something like a team from Gen 1, where some of the best Pokémon were Tauros and Exeggutor, going to compete against a team from Gen 7, where nearly everything is better than Tauros and Exeggutor? Is there any wallbreaker from a gen before Fairy moves that can punch through something like Mega Sableye (which was also banned to Ubers last gen)? Is there anything in Gen 4 that's bulky enough to take even one hit from Mega Mawile (which was, surprise surprise, ALSO banned to Ubers last gen)? How are you going to stop setup sweepers if your team is from a gen where things like Unaware, Sucker Punch and the Focus Sash haven't been invented yet?
I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think this idea is workable. The gens are just too different, and people will just end up always choosing the most recent gen because of the power creep. I just don't see this one working out.
"1. This would be an absolute nightmare to try and code, since we'd have to include the different mechanics of each generation and find some way to indicate what generation each player wants to use. It can't be done automatically by just saying "scan the person's team and use the items, Pokémon, moves, abilities and so forth to determine what generation this team is built in", for several reasons, including the fact that a Gen 7 team can theoretically be built using only Pokémon, moves, items, etc. from a single generation (any from Gen 3 onward), so we'd have to either somehow code a way to do it automatically (an enormous task) or have the player somehow select it manually, which would require some kind of feature in the teambuilder to do that (an even more enormous task)."
Well, I really do not have an answer for this because you guys who understand these things like encodings and etc.
"2. Gen 1 is so different from Gen 7 that the two could never properly interact. In fact, Gen 1, Gen 2 and Gen 3 are so wildly different from every gen after them, and from each other, that they're basically three completely separate games."
Yes, I know they are very different, and that is exactly where the metagame fun will be, as well as serve as an extra challenge for many players.
"3. Mechanics interactions are going to be hideous. How will Gens 1 through 5 handle the Fairy type? What happens when a Bug move from a gen other than 1 is used against a Gen 1 Poison-type? Or a Dark-type move from Gen 7 is used against a Gen 5 Steel-type? What about vice versa, when a Dark-type move from an older gen hits a Gen 6 or above Steel-type? What about the weather mechanics across different gens? Damage scaling? The physical-special split? What happens when you use Trick to give a Gen 2 Pokémon an item that didn't exist until Gen 5?"
I had already thought of all this, come on because it can be long:
Types: See the following scenario of two facing players: "Player A" is using a GS team with a Clafable against "Player B" who is using an XT team with a Clafable. In this scenario; the Clafable of "Player A" is of the normal type while the Clafable of "Player B" is of the fairy type.
Now answering your question about the fairy type; the most correct would be that the fairy type would have the same advantages and weaknesses from the moment it came and a Mooblast will be super effective against a Dragonite from "Player C" using an RB team.
A GS type dark type will always take super effective damage from a steel move, no matter what generation your opponent is using, because GS Player is with the weaknesses concerning your team, that is, the weaknesses would be totally related to the generation, so the opposite is also true.
More example: A Pinsir of a RB Team would receive super effective damage when hit by a Venoshock, a move that did not exist in the first generation where the insect carried super effective of poison moves, even if Venoshock did not exist at that time.
Weather mechanics: Very interesting and fun point, because a Kingdra an RS team would benefit from extra speed during the rain, and a Kingra from a GS team does not :) The same principle would apply to all Pokémon.
The physical-special split: Alakazam is a good example for several issues.
The RB Alakazam has a single status called a special with a base of 135 ok? So imagine a scenario where and this Alakazam faces a Mega-Gengar (perfect for example); this would be a battle of one player using RB mechanics against another player using SM mechanics; In this example, the Mega-Gengar would use a Shadow Ball which, for RB Alakazam would receive physical damage (because RB, ghost moves are physical), on the other hand if this Mega-Gengar attacks with a Thunderbolt, RB Alakazam would resist according to its special status of 135; obviously an RB Alakazam would withstand special attacks only than another Alakazam, but other RB pokémon may be weaker in special defense than their future versions for the same reason.
Oh, and this RB Alakazam would get stuck in the Shadow Tag because he's facing someone who chose the SM mechanic.
"What happens when you use Trick to give a Gen 2 Pokémon an item that didn't exist until Gen 5?"
Good question, ideally, if the trick is used against a Pokémon who is holding a non-existent item in the generation, the move must fail.
"4. If we're coding Gen 1 mechanics, we have to include all the garbage ones, and all the weird glitches, but how do those mesh with any other gen? Is the critical-hit chance based on Speed, but only for Gen 1 teams? What about playing against them? Does Leech Seed damage stack if your opponent is badly poisoned? If a Gen 1 Pokémon freezes a Pokémon from another gen, are they frozen forever?"
Yes, the player who chooses an RB team will take advantage of all "junk types, and all weird flaws" including eternal frozen, high critical rate and sinister wraps moves, but keep in mind, with the advantages will come the limitations of not being able to use items, not having abilities, limited movesets and etc.
"5. What about the power creep? Greninja was banned to Ubers just last generation, and now they've given it a new form that's even stronger. Hoopa-U was banned last gen but it dropped to UU at one point in Gen 7. And these are just examples from one generation ago—how is something like a team from Gen 1, where some of the best Pokémon were Tauros and Exeggutor, going to compete against a team from Gen 7, where nearly everything is better than Tauros and Exeggutor? Is there any wallbreaker from a gen before Fairy moves that can punch through something like Mega Sableye (which was also banned to Ubers last gen)? Is there anything in Gen 4 that's bulky enough to take even one hit from Mega Mawile (which was, surprise surprise, ALSO banned to Ubers last gen)? How are you going to stop setup sweepers if your team is from a gen where things like Unaware, Sucker Punch and the Focus Sash haven't been invented yet?"
Yes, I know that virtually anyone who chooses older generations will be at a disadvantage for a number of reasons, the excellent RB Tauros or GS Marowak will suffer as they face the new walls and sweepers, but I see fun in this challenge and include something else that might be successful .
"I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think this idea is workable. The gens are just too different, and people will just end up always choosing the most recent gen because of the power creep. I just don't see this one working out."
You were not rude and I thank you again for the answer.
Yes, I know the generations are different, but as I said above, I see fun in that challenge.
...including other Salazzle. Yeah, if Salazzle isn’t banned the entire meta will revolve around her. I can also see Curse Gengar ruling the meta, since it’s fast, immune to poison, its low defenses don’t matter in a meta where attacking isn’t allowed, and it can damage things immune to poison or with Poison Heal. Komala should probably be looked at as well, since it’s immune to all status, and Minior is immune to status above half HP.
Also, I think Deoxys-Attack, Deoxys-Normal and Pheromosa should be unbanned in this meta, since their high attacking stats don’t matter at all.
"1. This would be an absolute nightmare to try and code, since we'd have to include the different mechanics of each generation and find some way to indicate what generation each player wants to use. It can't be done automatically by just saying "scan the person's team and use the items, Pokémon, moves, abilities and so forth to determine what generation this team is built in", for several reasons, including the fact that a Gen 7 team can theoretically be built using only Pokémon, moves, items, etc. from a single generation (any from Gen 3 onward), so we'd have to either somehow code a way to do it automatically (an enormous task) or have the player somehow select it manually, which would require some kind of feature in the teambuilder to do that (an even more enormous task)."
Well, I really do not have an answer for this because you guys who understand these things like encodings and etc.
"2. Gen 1 is so different from Gen 7 that the two could never properly interact. In fact, Gen 1, Gen 2 and Gen 3 are so wildly different from every gen after them, and from each other, that they're basically three completely separate games."
Yes, I know they are very different, and that is exactly where the metagame fun will be, as well as serve as an extra challenge for many players.
"3. Mechanics interactions are going to be hideous. How will Gens 1 through 5 handle the Fairy type? What happens when a Bug move from a gen other than 1 is used against a Gen 1 Poison-type? Or a Dark-type move from Gen 7 is used against a Gen 5 Steel-type? What about vice versa, when a Dark-type move from an older gen hits a Gen 6 or above Steel-type? What about the weather mechanics across different gens? Damage scaling? The physical-special split? What happens when you use Trick to give a Gen 2 Pokémon an item that didn't exist until Gen 5?"
I had already thought of all this, come on because it can be long:
Types: See the following scenario of two facing players: "Player A" is using a GS team with a Clafable against "Player B" who is using an XT team with a Clafable. In this scenario; the Clafable of "Player A" is of the normal type while the Clafable of "Player B" is of the fairy type.
Now answering your question about the fairy type; the most correct would be that the fairy type would have the same advantages and weaknesses from the moment it came and a Mooblast will be super effective against a Dragonite from "Player C" using an RB team.
A GS type dark type will always take super effective damage from a steel move, no matter what generation your opponent is using, because GS Player is with the weaknesses concerning your team, that is, the weaknesses would be totally related to the generation, so the opposite is also true.
More example: A Pinsir of a RB Team would receive super effective damage when hit by a Venoshock, a move that did not exist in the first generation where the insect carried super effective of poison moves, even if Venoshock did not exist at that time.
Weather mechanics: Very interesting and fun point, because a Kingdra an RS team would benefit from extra speed during the rain, and a Kingra from a GS team does not :) The same principle would apply to all Pokémon.
The physical-special split: Alakazam is a good example for several issues.
The RB Alakazam has a single status called a special with a base of 135 ok? So imagine a scenario where and this Alakazam faces a Mega-Gengar (perfect for example); this would be a battle of one player using RB mechanics against another player using SM mechanics; In this example, the Mega-Gengar would use a Shadow Ball which, for RB Alakazam would receive physical damage (because RB, ghost moves are physical), on the other hand if this Mega-Gengar attacks with a Thunderbolt, RB Alakazam would resist according to its special status of 135; obviously an RB Alakazam would withstand special attacks only than another Alakazam, but other RB pokémon may be weaker in special defense than their future versions for the same reason.
Oh, and this RB Alakazam would get stuck in the Shadow Tag because he's facing someone who chose the SM mechanic.
"What happens when you use Trick to give a Gen 2 Pokémon an item that didn't exist until Gen 5?"
Good question, ideally, if the trick is used against a Pokémon who is holding a non-existent item in the generation, the move must fail.
"4. If we're coding Gen 1 mechanics, we have to include all the garbage ones, and all the weird glitches, but how do those mesh with any other gen? Is the critical-hit chance based on Speed, but only for Gen 1 teams? What about playing against them? Does Leech Seed damage stack if your opponent is badly poisoned? If a Gen 1 Pokémon freezes a Pokémon from another gen, are they frozen forever?"
Yes, the player who chooses an RB team will take advantage of all "junk types, and all weird flaws" including eternal frozen, high critical rate and sinister wraps moves, but keep in mind, with the advantages will come the limitations of not being able to use items, not having abilities, limited movesets and etc.
"5. What about the power creep? Greninja was banned to Ubers just last generation, and now they've given it a new form that's even stronger. Hoopa-U was banned last gen but it dropped to UU at one point in Gen 7. And these are just examples from one generation ago—how is something like a team from Gen 1, where some of the best Pokémon were Tauros and Exeggutor, going to compete against a team from Gen 7, where nearly everything is better than Tauros and Exeggutor? Is there any wallbreaker from a gen before Fairy moves that can punch through something like Mega Sableye (which was also banned to Ubers last gen)? Is there anything in Gen 4 that's bulky enough to take even one hit from Mega Mawile (which was, surprise surprise, ALSO banned to Ubers last gen)? How are you going to stop setup sweepers if your team is from a gen where things like Unaware, Sucker Punch and the Focus Sash haven't been invented yet?"
Yes, I know that virtually anyone who chooses older generations will be at a disadvantage for a number of reasons, the excellent RB Tauros or GS Marowak will suffer as they face the new walls and sweepers, but I see fun in this challenge and include something else that might be successful .
"I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think this idea is workable. The gens are just too different, and people will just end up always choosing the most recent gen because of the power creep. I just don't see this one working out."
You were not rude and I thank you again for the answer.
Yes, I know the generations are different, but as I said above, I see fun in that challenge.
The idea still doesn’t sit very well with me, but your reply is well-written enough that I know you’ve thought about this a lot and put a lot of work into coming up with it. If the meta turns out to be doable, I’ll probably try it out.
Metagame premise: All status moves deal damage in addition to their standard effects. Specifically,
The damage type will be the type of the move and will deal damage based on the appropriate attacking stat, stat changes, items, etc.
The move will be physical if the user's Attack stat is higher than its Special Attack, and special if SpA > Atk.
If both are equal, it will default to Physical.
Abilities and stat boosts are not taken into account.
The move's base power follows the following formula: 65 - (base PP). Note that this means base PP before PP-Ups.
For example, Synthesis has 5 PP, so it would be a Grass-type move with Base Power of 60.
All Z-Status moves will have 100 base power, regardless of the move's original bp.
Damage is dealt only if the move hits (if applicable) and does not fail.
For example, Toxic will not damage a Poison-type unless the user has Corrosion.
For example, Swords Dance will not deal damage if the user is already at +6 Attack.
Ally Switch will not deal damage because it always fails in singles battles.
The one exception is Sleep Clause -- the target will stay awake if sleep clause is active, but damage will still be dealt. This is because Sleep Clause is a deviation from actual game mechanics.
Damage is dealt before any of the move's other effects take place and is calculated normally (i.e. critical hits, damage calculations, and relevant abilities all function the same way they do for regular moves).
If the opponent is immune to a status move via ability or typing, the status effect will still occur if it would otherwise.
For example, Recover will not deal damage to Gengar, but it will still heal the user. Glare will paralyze Gengar, but not deal damage to it.
Edge cases are generally determined by taking these moves to be both status moves and attacks at the same time.
The original effects of a status move do not become secondary effects of the damaging move. Thus, abilities like Sheer Force, Serene Grace, and Shield Dust do not do anything special to status moves.
Taunt and Assault Vest both prevent the target/holder from using status moves.
Sucker Punch will connect if the opponent uses a status move.
Nature Power is a 45BP Normal-type move that is followed up by another attack depending on the terrain (or lack thereof).
If Magic Bounce reflects the move, the damaging component will also be reflected, as though the Magic Bounce user had used it. For example, if Garchomp uses Toxic on Espeon, Espeon will hit Garchomp with a 55BP special Poison move off Espeon's special attack.
Status moves retain any properties they already had (i.e. sound, powder, pulse, bypasses Substitutes) but do not gain any new ones (i.e. contact, punch, multi-hit).
Rules:
Singles meta with OU bans and clauses.
Pokemon bans: None yet.
Move bans: Every status move with priority 3 or higher is banned. Their reasonable base power in conjunction with very high priority and wide distribution, plus a few that are problematic in their own right (Snatch, Magic Coat, every Protect clone), make this the simplest way to remove those problems. Status moves with Priority 1 and 2, such as Follow Me and Ion Deluge, are still usable and will retain their heightened priority.
Potential bans and threats: While no Pokemon immediately stands out as banworthy, several stand out as powerful. Technician users can turn some of the higher-BP status moves into bona fide attacking options, while Prankster users can fire off attacks at +1 priority, so long as the opponent isn't a dark-type.
Mega Banette's characteristic Prankster Destiny Bonds now have extra bite to them, forming a 60BP physical Ghost-type attack at +1 priority, off of Banette's whopping attack stat. Grudge serves as backup since Destiny Bond can't go off every turn.
When boosted by Technician, Breloom's Spore hits 75BP; similarly, Sunny Day is a 90BP Fire-type coverage move... as long as the weather isn't already sunny.
An obnoxious set from late in Gen 6 returns, much less passive than the first time. While none of its status moves are boosted on their own, Dragonite adores the ability to deal damage while stalling for recovery or boosts.
Questions for the community:
Does this sound fun to play?
Are the mechanics consistent and understandable? I tried to be comprehensive, but I could have missed something or explained poorly.
What should it be called? "Status Attack" is kind of dull, but I couldn't think of anything better.
Metagame premise: All status moves deal damage in addition to their standard effects. Specifically,
The damage type will be the type of the move and will deal damage based on the appropriate attacking stat, stat changes, items, etc.
The move will be physical if the user's Attack stat is higher than its Special Attack, and special if SpA > Atk.
If both are equal, it will default to Physical.
Abilities and stat boosts are not taken into account.
The move's base power follows the following formula: 65 - (base PP). Note that this means base PP before PP-Ups.
For example, Synthesis has 5 PP, so it would be a Grass-type move with Base Power of 60.
All Z-Status moves will have 100 base power, regardless of the move's original bp.
Damage is dealt only if the move hits (if applicable) and does not fail.
For example, Toxic will not damage a Poison-type unless the user has Corrosion.
For example, Swords Dance will not deal damage if the user is already at +6 Attack.
Ally Switch will not deal damage because it always fails in singles battles.
The one exception is Sleep Clause -- the target will stay awake if sleep clause is active, but damage will still be dealt. This is because Sleep Clause is a deviation from actual game mechanics.
Damage is dealt before any of the move's other effects take place and is calculated normally (i.e. critical hits, damage calculations, and relevant abilities all function the same way they do for regular moves).
Edge cases are generally determined by taking these moves to be both status moves and attacks at the same time.
The original effects of a status move do not become secondary effects of the damaging move. Thus, abilities like Sheer Force, Serene Grace, and Shield Dust do not do anything special to status moves.
Taunt and Assault Vest both prevent the target/holder from using status moves.
Sucker Punch will connect if the opponent uses a status move.
If Magic Bounce reflects the move, the damaging component will also be reflected, as though the Magic Bounce user had used it. For example, if Garchomp uses Toxic on Espeon, Espeon will hit Garchomp with a 55BP special Poison move off Espeon's special attack.
Status moves retain any properties they already had (i.e. sound, powder, pulse, bypasses Substitutes) but do not gain any new ones (i.e. contact, punch, multi-hit).
Rules:
Singles meta with OU bans and clauses.
Pokemon bans: None yet.
Move bans: Every status move with priority 3 or higher is banned. Their reasonable base power in conjunction with very high priority and wide distribution, plus a few that are problematic in their own right (Snatch, Magic Coat, every Protect clone), make this the simplest way to remove those problems. Status moves with Priority 1 and 2, such as Follow Me and Ion Deluge, are still usable and will retain their heightened priority.
Potential bans and threats: While no Pokemon immediately stands out as banworthy, several stand out as powerful. Technician users can turn some of the higher-BP status moves into bona fide attacking options, while Prankster users can fire off attacks at +1 priority, so long as the opponent isn't a dark-type.
Mega Banette's characteristic Prankster Destiny Bonds now have extra bite to them, forming a 60BP physical Ghost-type attack at +1 priority, off of Banette's whopping attack stat. Grudge serves as backup since Destiny Bond can't go off every turn.
When boosted by Technician, Breloom's Spore hits 75BP; similarly, Sunny Day is a 90BP Fire-type coverage move... as long as the weather isn't already sunny.
An obnoxious set from late in Gen 6 returns, much less passive than the first time. While none of its status moves are boosted on their own, Dragonite adores the ability to deal damage while stalling for recovery or boosts.
Questions for the community:
Does this sound fun to play?
Are the mechanics consistent and understandable? I tried to be comprehensive, but I could have missed something or explained poorly.
What should it be called? "Status Attack" is kind of dull, but I couldn't think of anything better.
I've posted an idea for pretty much the same meta idea here before (Playable unnoficially in Dragon Heaven as Aggression Passion). Only difference between this and that is the move's BP and how the effects work
