Metagame Workshop

[Foxxeyy]

Rapid fire
Very simple metagame, each turn you have a 15 second timer.
Matches are played in OU.
Battles are fast paced, filled with errors. I bet it would be fun! Battles would go much quicker too.

That would be fun! Unfortunately, I highly doubt that’s getting approved

 

[chartung17]

Rapid fire
Very simple metagame, each turn you have a 15 second timer.
Matches are played in OU.
Battles are fast paced, filled with errors. I bet it would be fun! Battles would go much quicker too.

Not fun at all. A lot of battles would be decided by who has the better internet connection - a little bit of lag means you lose.

 

[Kowasabii]

Not fun at all. A lot of battles would be decided by who has the better internet connection - a little bit of lag means you lose.

It'd be 15 seconds each turn, unless your ping to the server is 8000 ms you are fine.

 

[chartung17]

It'd be 15 seconds each turn, unless your ping to the server is 8000 ms you are fine.

Do you have any idea how many games I've lost because I got disconnected from the server and didn't reconnect in time? A lot. And that was with 150-second time limits. A disconnect is almost a guaranteed loss with 15-second limits.

 

[Kowasabii]

Do you have any idea how many games I've lost because I got disconnected from the server and didn't reconnect in time? A lot. And that was with 150-second time limits. A disconnect is almost a guaranteed loss with 15-second limits.

Well if you have spotty internet this may not be the meta for you

 

[Yveltal for PU]

Well if you have spotty internet this may not be the meta for you

I think it’s pretty bad to base whether or not someone will like a meta based on internet connection. That and the actual game itself changes nothing about the game.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

A lot of people have suggested an OM that was basically a Mix and Mega spinoff but with form changes. Here's my official take on it:

Form Frenzy

Premis: Every Pokemon has access to back-and-forth form specific or altering abilities/items/moves, and are allowed one form change and the resulting form bonuses (no megas or primals, because MnM exists already).

So in short, all Pokemon can legally have some combination that results in a form change to another mon. This includes form altering or form specific items/abilities/moves; whatever that distinguishes the base Pokemon from the form change. For example, the Griseous Orb is a form altering item for Giratina. In this meta, any Pokemon can hold the Griseous Orb and then be presented as "Pokemon-Origin" and would have the corresponding form changes. For Giratina, the only associated form changes would be the base stat changes and the ability change to Levitate. A Tapu Koko with this form would look like this:

Tapu Koko-Origin @ Griseous Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 30 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Dazzling Gleam
- U-turn

New base stats: 70/135/65/115/55/130

Koko would retain its movepool and ability options, as Giritina does not have a new ability nor any new form specific moves. Because Koko is already a new form with it holding the Griseous Orb, it is no longer allowed to have any new form abilities or moves.

List of Form Changing Items

1. Griseous Orb: Giratina > Girtina-Origin, Must have Levitate as an ability, +20 Atk, -20 Def, +20 SpA, -20 SpD
2. Elemental Plates / Z Moves: Arceus >Arceus-Type, Must have Multitype as an ability to register as a form change, Changes primary type to match plate.
3. Elemental Memories: Silvally > Silvally-Memory, Must have RKS System as an ability to register as a form change, Changes primary type to match memory.

List of Form Changing Abilities

1. Forecast: Castform > its weather forms, Changes primary type in weather
2. Flower Gift: Cherrim-Overcast > Cherrim-Shunshine
3. Serene Grace: Shaymin > Shaymin-Sky, Changes secondary type to Flying, legalizes Air Slash, Quick Attack, and Leaf Storm, +3 Atk, -25 Def, +20 SpA, -25 SpD, +27 Spe
4. Zen Mode: Darminitan > Darminitan-Zen Mode, When it activates: Changes secondary type to Psychic, -110 Atk, +50 Def, +110 SpA, +50 SpD, -40 Spe
5. Regenerator: Tornadus-I > Tornadus-T, -15 Atk, +10 Def, -15 SpA, +10 SpD, +10 Spe
6. Volt Absorb: Thundurus-I > Thundurus-T, -10 Atk, +20 SpA, -10 Spe
7. Intimidate: Landorus-I > Landorus-T, +20 Atk, -10 SpA, -10 Spe
8. Turboblaze: Kyurem > Kyurem-White, legalizes Ice Burn and Fusion Flare, -10 Atk, +40 SpA, +10 SpD
9. Teravolt: Kyurem > Kyurem-Black, legalizes Freeze Shock and Fusion Bolt, +40 Atk, +10 Def, -10 SpA
10. Battle Bond: Greninja > Ash-Greninja, legalizes Water Shuriken, When activated: +50 Atk, +50 SpA, +10 Spe
11. Stance Change: Aegislash-Shield > Aegislash-Blade, legalizes Kings Shield, When activated +100 Atk, -100 Def, +100 SpA, -100 SpD (Note: Kings Shield would return to Shield form and reverse these stat changes). Banned.
12. Schooling: Not bothering because the ridiculous stat changes would be banable from the start.
13. Shields Down: Immune to status, and then when it activates: +40 Atk, -40 Def, +40 SpA, -40 SpD, +60 Spe
14. Disguise: Mimikyu > Mimikyu-Busted, banned for sure.
15. Power Construct

List of Form Changing Moves

1. Overheat: Rotom > Rotom-H, Changes secondary typing to Fire, +15 Atk, +30 Def, +10 SpA, +30 SpD, -5 Spe
2. Hydro Pump: Rotom > Rotom-W, Changes secondary typing to Water, +15 Atk, +30 Def, +10 SpA, +30 SpD, -5 Spe
3. Blizzard: Rotom > Rotom-F, Changes secondary typing to Ice, +15 Atk, +30 Def, +10 SpA, +30 SpD, -5 Spe
4. Leaf Storm: Rotom > Rotom-M, Changes secondary typing to Grass +15 Atk, +30 Def, +10 SpA, +30 SpD, -5 Spe
5. Air Slash: Rotom > Rotom-C, Changes secondary typing to Flying, +15 Atk, +30 Def, +10 SpA, +30 SpD, -5 Spe
6. Secret Sword: Keldeo > Keldeo Resolute
7. Relic Song: Meloetta > Meloetta-P, When activates: Changes secondary typing to Fighting and stats to: +51 Atk, +13 Def, -51 SpA, -51 SpD, +38 Spe
8. Hyperspace Fury, Knock Off, or Dark Pulse: Hoopah-C > Hoopah-U, Changes secondary typing to Dark, legalizes the other level-up moves mentioned before, +50 Atk, +20 SpA, +10 Spe
9. Sunsteel Strike: Necrozma > DM-Necrozma, Access to form specific Z moves, Changes secondary typing to Steel, +50 Atk, +26 Def, -14 SpA, +20 SpD, -2 Spe
10. Moongeist Beam: Necrozma > DW-Necrozma, Access to form specific Z moves, Changes secondary typing to Ghost, +6 Atk, +8 Def, +30 SpA, +38 SpD, -2 Spe
11. Taunt, Superpower, or Zap Cannon: Deoxys > Doexys-A,ttack legalizes the other form-level up moves mentioned before, +30 Atk, -30 Def, +30 SpA, -30 SpD
12. Spikes, Snatch, Iron Defense, Amnesia, Counter, or Mirror Coat: Deoxys > Deoxys-Defense, legalizes the other form-level up moves mentioned before as well as Knock Off and Recover, -80 Atk, +110 Def, -80 SpA, +110 SpD, -60 Spe. Banned
13. Double Team, Pursuit, Swift, Agility , or Extreme Speed: Deoxys > Deoxys-Speed, legalizes the other form-level up moves mentioned before as well as Knock Off and Recover, -55 Atk, +40 Def, -55 SpA, +40 SpD, +30 Spe.

Note: Some outside of battle form changes may have even more exclusive moves then the ones listed. I'll get back to the research on that. For all intents and purposes though, every form specific move is enough of a signature to be unbiased as the indicator for form changes. To me, at least.

There's a lot to flesh out with this premise, so I would like to go into how I made it unbiased and uniform for everything, as to follow the rules of an OM and not a Pet Mod.

FAQ / Further Explanation

1. Only back-and-forth form changes were counted in this meta. What I mean by this term is that the base Pokemon must be able to seemingly change its form back and forth in game. This could be in battle or out of battle. A Pokemon like Lycanrock has different forms, but once it is evolved it cannot legally change between forms. Only megas and primal evolutions are excluded, as those already exist in the playable MnM.

2. Form changes that have no mechanical difference or way to distinguish the form change are disregarded. This includes the vivlion forms, as they are merely cosmetic. Zygarde has three in game forms, and there would be no way to judge the stat changes.

3. The legality check has a priority list of:

• Species: If the Pokemon is already a form change, it won't be allowed to change form again.
• Item: If the held item is a form associated or altering item, the set will then be accordance to that form change.
• Ability: If the ability is a form associated or altering ability, the set will then be accordance to that form change.
• Moveslot: Going from first move to the last move, if the move is a form associated or altering move, the set will be then accordance to that form change.

Here's a list that provides an example on each level that shows where the set becomes illegal to include an additional form change:

• An already form changed mon like Rotom-Wash cannot receive any new changes, as it is already a form change. However, regular Rotom is perfectly fine.
• If this Rotom holds the Draco Plate, it'll assume the form change of Rotom-Dragon, become Dragon/Ghost, and must have Multitype as its ability. It can no longer be another form.
• If this Rotom instead held Leftovers, but changed its ability to Stance Change it'll assume the form change of Rotom-Shield, and can no longer be another form.
• Lastly take this simple set of Charizard:

Charizard @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
- Overheat
- Leaf Storm

This set is illegal because the rules would immediately make Charizard take the Rotom-Heat form because of Overheat, and disallow any further form change moves. This set, however, is perfectly fine:

Charizard @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
- Leaf Storm
- Over Heat

This set would make Charizard become Charizard-Mow because Leaf Storm is first. Because Overheat is already a naturally occurring move for Charizard, there would be no form complications.

4. Form change rules also followed this priority. This is why I used Turboblaze over Ice Burn as the form activator for Kyruem-White, as the unique ability comes first in this order.

5. All of the move-specific form changes come from moves that only that form receives in comparison to the base mon. While some forms like Hoopa-U have multiple differing moves from regular Hoopa, only Hyperspace Fury is signature to it, and is specific to that mon as a whole. That to me is clear, unbiased validation to make Hyperspace Fury a form altering move.

6. Note that the species clause would still count the base Pokemon, not the Pokemon that the form change comes from.

Bans: OU Banlist (although it might have to be Ubers, we'll see), Form Change Clause, Disguise, Schooling, Stance Change, Deoxys-D Form changes, Regigigas, Slaking


Here are some fun sets:

Zeraora-Dusk-Mane @ Choice Band
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Sunsteel Strike
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
New Type: Electric/Steel
New base stats: 88/162/101/88/100/ 141

Dusk Mane is easily one of the more broken form changes, giving absurd stat buffs right off the bat. The added steel typing and STAB in Sunsteel Strike are what really pushes this form change over the edge. Zeraora-DM is great because its speed tier isn't too hurt by dropping two points, really enjoys the extra power and stab, and the new defensive typing and stats help it survive and switch into a lot more. DM is totally on the watchlist for bans

Serperior-Heat @ Leftovers
Ability: Contrary
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Overheat
- Leaf Storm
- Glare
- Substitute
New Type: Grass/Fire
New base stats: 75/90/125/85/125/108

Serperior-Heat is just that; HEAT. Man, it not only has STAB Contrary Overheat, it also still retains STAB Leaf Storm; which is a great supplement for a Fire typed sweeper. Its defenses are also phenomenal, so much so that a bulkier subseed glare set with just Overheat would probably be great as well. The only negative is the new 108 speed tier is a bit of a bummer, but its made up with maybe an even better defensive type and great bulk.


Tapu Koko-Unbound @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Wild Charge
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- U-turn
New Type: Electric/Dark
New base stats: 70/165/85/115/75/140

Totally busted. Electric/Dark STABs are awesome and almost goes completely unresisted in OU if it wasn't for Bulu.


Reuniclus @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Zen Mode
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Trick Room
- Psyshock
- Focus Blast
- Calm Mind
New base stats in Zen Mode: 110/1/125/235/135/1

Little bit of a gimmick, and you do have to give up Magic Guard, but who wouldn't want 235 special attack?? You get the added bulk at half health, which could be a stretch, but it could also be all you need to sweep!

Edit: Sample teams

Hyper Stall: https://pokepast.es/23c21fb8f89f8176

Webs HO: https://pokepast.es/45365065dad67d9e



Questions for the community:

-I really tried my best to narrow down how / why form changes work like they do in this meta. If this STILL sounds bias in any area, let me know!!! Maybe we can salvage it.
-Even if you don't think it's pet mod territory, is my explanation just too convoluted? What else do you think is messy / contradictory?
-Any cool, creative, or broken sets you can come up with?
-Like always, a better name? lol

 

[urkerab]

For Giratina, the only associated form changes would be the base stat changes.

Any particular reason why? (Giratina doesn't have Giratina-Origin's Ability.)

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Any particular reason why? (Giratina doesn't have Giratina-Origin's Ability.)

Thats a mess up on my end! yes it would get levitate, I''l correct that now! I probably messed up a decent amount, im going back to change it. Theres a lot of data!

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Some sets for Form Frenzy:

Volcarona @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Fire Blast
- Quiver Dance
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Volcarona no longer has to decide between Heatran and Toxapex.

Magearna-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 224 SpD / 36 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Volt Switch
- Fleur Cannon
- Focus Blast
- Iron Head

AV Magearna, now with recovery and slightly increased increased defenses.

Kommo-o @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Shields Down
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Close Combat
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake

Belly Drum and Shields Down have nice synergy.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Some sets for Form Frenzy:

Volcarona @ Earth Plate
Ability: Multitype
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Judgment
- Fire Blast
- Quiver Dance
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Volcarona no longer has to decide between Heatran and Toxapex.

Magearna-Therian @ Assault Vest
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 224 SpD / 36 Spe
Sassy Nature
- Volt Switch
- Fleur Cannon
- Focus Blast
- Iron Head

AV Magearna, now with recovery and slightly increased increased defenses.

Kommo-o @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Shields Down
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Belly Drum
- Close Combat
- Dragon Claw
- Earthquake

Belly Drum and Shields Down have nice synergy.

Cool sets! The earthplate volc looks really solid. I already know how ground/fire can tear teams apart in OU.

I like the use of Shields Down on Kommo-o, but I'm worried it'll be so frail after a BD and the stats change. I had it with shields down and Kommoium Z, cause no worries about being burned or poisoned.

Still I think Shields Down has a lot of potential I'm not seeing yet. I mean, immune to status and then a +40 in offenses, and then +60 in speed!?! I know its a lot, but I havent seen a set in this meta that completely abuses it.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Cool sets! The earthplate volc looks really solid. I already know how ground/fire can tear teams apart in OU.

I like the use of Shields Down on Kommo-o, but I'm worried it'll be so frail after a BD and the stats change. I had it with shields down and Kommoium Z, cause no worries about being burned or poisoned.

Still I think Shields Down has a lot of potential I'm not seeing yet. I mean, immune to status and then a +40 in offenses, and then +60 in speed!?! I know its a lot, but I havent seen a set in this meta that completely abuses it.

Kommo-o has to worry about priority, but 150 Attack at +6, plus 145 speed, is super scary. Plus, it's still sort of slow and bulky before setting up, so it can potentially set up on faster threats.

 

[Kowasabii]

I think it’s pretty bad to base whether or not someone will like a meta based on internet connection. That and the actual game itself changes nothing about the game.

You're missing the point of what I'm saying, a 15 second timer each turn shouldn't depend on internet connection. There's no way someone's ping to the server is 1000 ms, and if their internet is that spotty they probably won't be able to play normal matches either

 

[DrPumpkinz]

A bunch of sets for Form Frenzy:

Blacephalon-Resolute

Blacephalon @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 236 HP / 20 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Secret Sword
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind

The classic. Blacephalon with Fighting coverage for T-tar.

Archeops-Ash

Archeops @ Rockium Z
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Heat Wave

Archeops without Defeatist.

Flareon-Dusk-Mane

Flareon @ Solganium Z / Firium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Will-O-Wisp

Heatran typing, with extra physical bulk to complement Flareon's nice special bulk. Also, does Solganium Z work?

Samurott-Sky

Samurott @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Air Slash
- Icy Wind
- Work Up

There aren't many mons that fully benefit from the Sky transformation, as Air Slash is very rarely learned by non-Flying types. Samurott makes good use of it, though, especially with Scald's new 60% burn chance.

Medicham-Unbound

Medicham @ Choice Band
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- High Jump Kick
- Poison Jab
- Drain Punch

Lucario-Unbound

Lucario @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
- Swords Dance

Raw power or setup. Take your pick.

Lucario-Dawn-Wings

Lucario @ Lunalium Z / Fightinium Z
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Moongeist Beam
- Nasty Plot
- Vacuum Wave

Another Lucario set, this time with the coveted Fighting/Ghost typing. Again, do the Alolan legendary Z-Crystals work?

Slurpuff-Dusk-Mane

Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Sunsteel Strike
- Play Rough
- Drain Punch

Fairy/Steel typing makes setting up super easy.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Form Frenzy update:

I edited the original posts to include the Deoxys form changes, and well as flesh out the new available moves from the form changes. Some of these moves include Recover, Air Slash, Extreme Speed, Knock Off, Fusion Flare, Fusion Bolt, and more, all of course limited to their specific form changes.

Again, I'll make this clear: this meta only looks at form changes that can legally go back and forth from the base mon either inside or outside of battle. Because many form changes would be impossible to implement on Showdown, form changes are based on the exclusive item/ability/moves that the form change receives when compared to the base form, with the priority of what causes the change also in that order.

In some cases, like the Deoxys forms, there can be forms that have changes from the base form, but they aren't exclusive to that form. Both Deoxys-Defense and Deexys-Speed learn Recover while the base from doesn't. This allows these form changes to have access to these moves, but would not make them form change triggers. For example, because Recover isn't a form specific move, and because Skarmory does not naturally learn Recover, this set is illegal:

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
IVs: 0 Atk
- Recover

However, by adding one of Deoxys-Speed's form changing moves like Extreme Speed, Skarmory can now legally have Recover:

Skarmory @ Leftovers
Ability: Sturdy
IVs: 0 Atk
- Extreme Speed
- Recover

I quickbanned Deoxys-D because not only are the +110 buffs to both defenses crazy enough as it is, it would allow the base mon to keep their typing / ability while also gaining a ton of new supportive moves, including recover and spikes. That sounds too much to me lol. Deo Speed and Attack though seem balanced enough, but please, I would love more feedback!!!

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

A bunch of sets for Form Frenzy:

Blacephalon-Resolute

Blacephalon @ Ghostium Z
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 236 HP / 20 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Secret Sword
- Fire Blast
- Shadow Ball
- Calm Mind

The classic. Blacephalon with Fighting coverage for T-tar.

Archeops-Ash

Archeops @ Rockium Z
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Knock Off
- Heat Wave

Archeops without Defeatist.

Flareon-Dusk-Mane

Flareon @ Solganium Z / Firium Z
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Will-O-Wisp

Heatran typing, with extra physical bulk to complement Flareon's nice special bulk. Also, does Solganium Z work?

Samurott-Sky

Samurott @ Leftovers
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Scald
- Air Slash
- Icy Wind
- Work Up

There aren't many mons that fully benefit from the Sky transformation, as Air Slash is very rarely learned by non-Flying types. Samurott makes good use of it, though, especially with Scald's new 60% burn chance.

Medicham-Unbound

Medicham @ Choice Band
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- High Jump Kick
- Poison Jab
- Drain Punch

Lucario-Unbound

Lucario @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- Close Combat
- Poison Jab
- Swords Dance

Raw power or setup. Take your pick.

Lucario-Dawn-Wings

Lucario @ Lunalium Z / Fightinium Z
Ability: Steadfast
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Focus Blast
- Moongeist Beam
- Nasty Plot
- Vacuum Wave

Another Lucario set, this time with the coveted Fighting/Ghost typing. Again, do the Alolan legendary Z-Crystals work?

Slurpuff-Dusk-Mane

Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Sunsteel Strike
- Play Rough
- Drain Punch

Fairy/Steel typing makes setting up super easy.

Thanks again for the sets! Coincidentally I just updated in what I believe to be the final major revision to the meta, which should answer most of your questions. But in short:

-Yes, the Z moves would work for Sunsteel Strike and Moongeist Beam
-Air Slash is a form specific level up move for Skymin-Sky, so other -sky Pokemon can use it! With the added Flying typing, speed, and special attack, Im sure this set will be annoying.
-I really liked the sets, in particular I think Moongiest Lucario, Blace-Resolute, and Dusk Mane Slurpuff are really threatening.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I think I liked Form Frenzy more before the level up move shenanigans with Shaymin's Air Slash and Deoxys's everything. Judgement, Multi Attack, and Techno Blast are also kinda weird, since the base forms can also learn them. I'd say just keep it to moves that are truly exclusive to the form change (as in, the base form CANNOT learn the moves), even if it means my Volcarona set wouldn't work.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

I think I liked Form Frenzy more before the level up move shenanigans with Shaymin's Air Slash and Deoxys's everything. Judgement, Multi Attack, and Techno Blast are also kinda weird, since the base forms can also learn them. I'd say just keep it to moves that are truly exclusive to the form change (as in, the base form CANNOT learn the moves), even if it means my Volcarona set wouldn't work.

I fixed this for the most part, including getting rid of water shurriken for ash gren as well.


I do have a question for the community though: where in the OM submission rules does it say I need to have merely one trigger to one type of gain? As in how MnM has megastones for megas, and Inheritance has legality checks for the different inherited abilities and moves. Like Inheritance, my meta is based on checking the legality of the set based on if it exists on other form changes, but unlike Inheritance, the benefits aren't uniform. Here, there a ton of changes to either stats, moves, abilities, and even typing. Furthermore, what makes these sets legal is a different amount of checks in different regards. Still, this is undoubtedly only one unbiased check as a whole to see what form the set matches, if any. So, where does it say in the OM submission rules that I can't do this? Is it too complicated?


If I am wrong, and it does say this, does anyone have any suggestions to make the form change one uniform trigger? Should I only stick to move or ability based forms?


Edit: Think if this meta was an ingame hack. There, all outside of battle form changes can undergo their respective events, and all pokemon can come into battle with the form change they received. This would also include any of the new level up moves learned by that form, as well as the other possible changes like to type or ability. This is 100% faithful to the source game, and completely unbiased. Would this still be considered possibly a Pet Mod over an OM?

I bring up the ingame scenario, but it shows the only roadblock in this meta's way; the multiple out of battle form changes that have nothing to distinguish them. I believe it would be in best interest to then make signature, form specific moves / abilities as triggers for the form changes. I see that as the easiest, most faithful, and most unbiased way to do this transition. I wouldn't make sense to me to do it any other way.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

I fixed this for the most part, including getting rid of water shurriken for ash gren as well.


I do have a question for the community though: where in the OM submission rules does it say I need to have merely one trigger to one type of gain? As in how MnM has megastones for megas, and Inheritance has legality checks for the different inherited abilities and moves. Like Inheritance, my meta is based on checking the legality of the set based on if it exists on other form changes, but unlike Inheritance, the benefits aren't uniform. Here, there a ton of changes to either stats, moves, abilities, and even typing. Furthermore, what makes these sets legal is a different amount of checks in different regards. Still, this is undoubtedly only one unbiased check as a whole to see what form the set matches, if any. So, where does it say in the OM submission rules that I can't do this? Is it too complicated?


If I am wrong, and it does say this, does anyone have any suggestions to make the form change one uniform trigger? Should I only stick to move or ability based forms?


Edit: Think if this meta was an ingame hack. There, all outside of battle form changes can undergo their respective events, and all pokemon can come into battle with the form change they received. This would also include any of the new level up moves learned by that form, as well as the other possible changes like to type or ability. This is 100% faithful to the source game, and completely unbiased. Would this still be considered possibly a Pet Mod over an OM?

I bring up the ingame scenario, but it shows the only roadblock in this meta's way; the multiple out of battle form changes that have nothing to distinguish them. I believe it would be in best interest to then make signature, form specific moves / abilities as triggers for the form changes. I see that as the easiest, most faithful, and most unbiased way to do this transition. I wouldn't make sense to me to do it any other way.

I still think that the ability form changes shouldn't give access to new moves, and I don't think moves learned through form changes should count if they are kept when reverting to base form. I think the best way to do this would be Pokemon Showdown's move legality checker:

Even though Deoxys can only learn Zap Cannon in its base form, it can still technically KNOW Zap Cannon, so Zap Cannon shouldn't be a trigger for Pokemon-Attack form (in fact, because there really isn't anything different in terms of moves, abilities, or items for the Deoxys forms, I'm not sure they should even be included in this meta).

Meanwhile, regular Rotom can't know Overheat, but Rotom-Heat can. Therefor, giving a Pokemon Overheat would turn it into Pokemon-Heat.


I get that you want to be thorough, but at some point it feels arbitrary.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

I still think that the ability form changes shouldn't give access to new moves, and I don't think moves learned through form changes should count if they are kept when reverting to base form. I think the best way to do this would be Pokemon Showdown's move legality checker:

View attachment 160429
Even though Deoxys can only learn Zap Cannon in its base form, it can still technically KNOW Zap Cannon, so Zap Cannon shouldn't be a trigger for Pokemon-Attack form (in fact, because there really isn't anything different in terms of moves, abilities, or items for the Deoxys forms, I'm not sure they should even be included in this meta).

View attachment 160430
View attachment 160431
Meanwhile, regular Rotom can't know Overheat, but Rotom-Heat can. Therefor, giving a Pokemon Overheat would turn it into Pokemon-Heat.


I get that you want to be thorough, but at some point it feels arbitrary.

The only reason Deo can learn Zap Cannon is because Deo-Attack learns it. Without the form change, it would not be able to have that attack. So while Rotom-Heat's Overheat is exclusive to Rotom Heat, its still the same with Zap Cannon being only available because of the form change.

This table from bulbapedia shows this off. There IS a difference because the single form change is what allows the usage for this move.


Anything else that feels arbitrary, and did this clear things up?

 

[DrPumpkinz]

The only reason Deo can learn Zap Cannon is because Deo-Attack learns it. Without the form change, it would not be able to have that attack. So while Rotom-Heat's Overheat is exclusive to Rotom Heat, its still the same with Zap Cannon being only available because of the form change.
View attachment 160433


This table from bulbapedia shows this off. There IS a difference because the single form change is what allows the usage for this move.


Anything else that feels arbitrary, and did this clear things up?

Shaymin and Deoxys also learn different moves via tutor. Should those be included as well? I understand that it isn't actually arbitrary; there is a method to it, but it seems too complicated to remember.

 

[Failure999]

Form Frenzy

I love the idea of this metagame, but I have a few questions.

1. For abilities that change forms, while most of the abilities are pokemon exclusive, some, like Regenerator, Intimidate, and Volt Absorb for the Thedian forms, are not. Hence, what would happen to the pokemon who also gets them normally. For example, would a Regenerator Slowbro be forced to gain the stat changes for Tornadus-Thedian?
2. Minor and probably irrevelant question, but just to confirm, would pokemon that has undergone form changes still be able to mega evolve?
3. Would Shields Down be a little insane to allow every pokemon to get? It, along with Focus Sash, would give every offensive set-up pokemon ridiculous to tank outside of a incredibly bulky Unaware pokemon.
4. How would happen to a Battle-Bond activated Pokemon should it go "Oh no, I'm still too weak, better Mega Evolve." I'm asking this as Megas like Latios, Alakazam and the rest do not need an extra +50 base SpA/Atk and +10 Spe.

Also, a few sets,

Zeraora-Ash @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Close Combat
- Water Shuriken
- Plasma Fists
- Grass Knot
Base Stats (Boosted): 88 / 162 / 75 / 152 / 80 / 153
Giving it passable offensive stats and a blistering speed tier makes this a formidable foe to sack a Pokemon to. Though it does need a KO to get said powerful boost, pairing it with strong wall breakers allows for this set to thrive and sweep even without set-up.

Xurkitree @ Psychium Z
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hypnosis
- Thunderbolt
- Water Shuriken
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Base Stats (Boosted): 83 / 139 / 71 / 223 / 72 / 93
The typical Xurkitree, just with Water Shuriken over Tail Glow because if you get a KO, base 223 SpA should be terrifying enough to sweep with a +1 Base 91 Spe.

Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam / Leaf Storm
- Focus Blast
- Roost
Base Stats: 78 / 107 / 53 / 179 / 90 / 127
This set could probably work better with Blacephalon, giving him something to hit T-Tar while still getting offensive boost, something it does not get with Keldeo, but I wanted to use Charizard because priority, especially Sucker Punch would decimate poor Blacephalon. (Also because I like Charizard lol)

 

[Foxxeyy]

Medicham @ Choice Band
Ability: Pure Power
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Hyperspace Fury
- High Jump Kick
- Poison Jab
- Drain Punch

Very quick thing about that set: only Hoopa-U can use Hyperspace Fury: Test it in BH if you don’t believe me.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Shaymin and Deoxys also learn different moves via tutor. Should those be included as well? I understand that it isn't actually arbitrary; there is a method to it, but it seems too complicated to remember.

As far as I can see, Skymin gets Tailwind instead of Earth Power, but besides that they don’t learn anything else different from tutors that isn’t already covered by level up moves. So yes, tutor moves would be allowed because again, it would be like an in game form change and you would get everything that form change allows.

I love the idea of this metagame, but I have a few questions.

1. For abilities that change forms, while most of the abilities are pokemon exclusive, some, like Regenerator, Intimidate, and Volt Absorb for the Thedian forms, are not. Hence, what would happen to the pokemon who also gets them normally. For example, would a Regenerator Slowbro be forced to gain the stat changes for Tornadus-Thedian?
2. Minor and probably irrevelant question, but just to confirm, would pokemon that has undergone form changes still be able to mega evolve?
3. Would Shields Down be a little insane to allow every pokemon to get? It, along with Focus Sash, would give every offensive set-up pokemon ridiculous to tank outside of a incredibly bulky Unaware pokemon.
4. How would happen to a Battle-Bond activated Pokemon should it go "Oh no, I'm still too weak, better Mega Evolve." I'm asking this as Megas like Latios, Alakazam and the rest do not need an extra +50 base SpA/Atk and +10 Spe.

Also, a few sets,

Zeraora-Ash @ Life Orb
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Close Combat
- Water Shuriken
- Plasma Fists
- Grass Knot
Base Stats (Boosted): 88 / 162 / 75 / 152 / 80 / 153
Giving it passable offensive stats and a blistering speed tier makes this a formidable foe to sack a Pokemon to. Though it does need a KO to get said powerful boost, pairing it with strong wall breakers allows for this set to thrive and sweep even without set-up.

Xurkitree @ Psychium Z
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hypnosis
- Thunderbolt
- Water Shuriken
- Hidden Power [Ice]
Base Stats (Boosted): 83 / 139 / 71 / 223 / 72 / 93
The typical Xurkitree, just with Water Shuriken over Tail Glow because if you get a KO, base 223 SpA should be terrifying enough to sweep with a +1 Base 91 Spe.

Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam / Leaf Storm
- Focus Blast
- Roost
Base Stats: 78 / 107 / 53 / 179 / 90 / 127
This set could probably work better with Blacephalon, giving him something to hit T-Tar while still getting offensive boost, something it does not get with Keldeo, but I wanted to use Charizard because priority, especially Sucker Punch would decimate poor Blacephalon. (Also because I like Charizard lol)

1. The therian form abilities, sameas all abilities in the mentioned list, will automatically trigger the form change. This is because these abilities are new in comparison to the base forms, and all changes are affected / cause the transformation.
2. I would say yes, you can still mega evolve if you have a form change, but the megas are the same stats / abilities. So your charizard-sky loses all its stat changes once it megas.
3. Sheilds Down is both hard to set up and makes you very vulnerable to revenge kill after the -40 def and spd. Only one Sheilds Down per team, so once u see say “Kartna-Meteor,” you know what kinda set it will be.
4. Again, megas and form changes don’t stack. Max and min base stats would still be 255 and 1 as well.

Very quick thing about that set: only Hoopa-U can use Hyperspace Fury: Test it in BH if you don’t believe me.

This meta makes your pokemon have all the benefits of a form change, making Hyperspace Fury work on any “Unbound” pokemon.

 

[LordHelix]

Not to burst anyones bubble but i already posted a similar idea to form frenzy a long time ago and it got rejected "for being too similar to cross evo and mnm"

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/metagame-workshop.3598275/post-7453313
Ik the execution is different but i thought it was similar enough to comment