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Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
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Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
M&M Mix and Mega
- Thread starter Quantum Tesseract
- Start date
Due to Andyboy's insistence, I have cranked out a working SS MnM Calc:
https://catalipstick.github.io/mnm-calc/
I hope the Maldyboy calc will be of use to people!
Theremay be definitely are bugs; let me know if you encounter any and I will do my best to fix them.
https://catalipstick.github.io/mnm-calc/
I hope the Maldyboy calc will be of use to people!
- Put your pokemon in with the mega stone
- The ability, typing, stats, and weight will automatically update as you change/remove mega stones
There
Update to the calc:
- Fixed weather issues (where Red Orb / Blue Orb, as well as Charzardite Y wouldn't set the weather)
- This includes weird things like where Charzardite Y would override Blue Orb and weird funky stuff like that
- Weather also reverts after the weather stone is gone
- Note: Utility Umbrella is broken, but this is due to the main calc being bad
- Added mega stones to the damage calc line (S/O Yuga42 for the idea)
- 252+ Atk Adaptability Urshifu @ Lucarionite Wicked Blow vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Dragonite @ Altarianite on a critical hit: 153-180 (39.7 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
- 252 Atk Zeraora @ Lopunnite Close Combat vs. 192 HP / 0 Def Zygarde @ Lucarionite: 183-216 (45.1 - 53.3%) -- 32.8% chance to 2HKO
I'm not sure if Latios is a good pick here. Dragon/Psychic has a considerable amount of weaknesses as a defensive type to very common attacks, and its STAB combo is no-sold by a good portion of the bulkier meta. I would replace it with Zapdos as it now has Hurricane and a better defensive typing.
Manectite Magearna is a pretty solid pick in most cases. If you plan on adding Dracovish at some point, you'll have to consider removing Swampertite from Urshifu, not only does Dracovish like Swampertite more but Urshifu-Rapid is very comfortable with other stones such as Metagrossite and Aerodactylite.
Thought I’d share this here because it’s been working well for me and I haven’t seen much hyper offence on this thread. Feedback would be great!
Heatran @ Diancite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
Zeraora @ Lopunnite
Ability: Volt Absorb
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Plasma Fists
- Play Rough
- Volt Switch
Mimikyu @ Metagrossite
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw
- Play Rough
- Drain Punch
Zygarde @ Altarianite
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speeds
- Dragon Dance
- Brick Break
Shuckle @ Amphorasite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Infestation
- Toxic
Landorus (M) @ Pinsirite
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Brick Break
- U-turn
Edit: Some info on how the team works.
I added Zygarde because it’s the best check to AteSpeed Dragonite and is good setup sweeper due to pretty good bulk.
Shuckle with Mold Breaker and the decent typing of Bug/Dragon let’s it pop Stealth Rock and Sticky Web easily and Toxic/Infestation put a dent in whatever the opponent tries to stop it with.
Zeraora has the most spammable STAB move in Close Combat, Plasma Fists provides more good STAB, Play Rough provides coverage, and Volt Switch provides momentum.
Mimikyu has free setup, decent speed and great pre-setup attack, Play Rough provides good STAB, Shadow Sneak has STAB and priority while Drain Punch provides recovery and coverage to go with that excellent offensive typing.
Landorus is easily the best earthquake user in this meta and Pinsirite seemed like the best stone for it as it turns Lando’s Normal moves into great STAB options to go alongside Earthquake. Brick Break beats the Ice types that can threaten it and U-turn provides momentum.
Heatran provides a good switch in to the e-speeders that can threaten Zeraora and is a great Diancite user on a sticky web team that bypasses it’s only decent speed in this meta.
Heatran @ Diancite
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Earth Power
- Fire Blast
- Flash Cannon
- Dark Pulse
Zeraora @ Lopunnite
Ability: Volt Absorb
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Plasma Fists
- Play Rough
- Volt Switch
Mimikyu @ Metagrossite
Ability: Disguise
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Shadow Claw
- Play Rough
- Drain Punch
Zygarde @ Altarianite
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Extreme Speeds
- Dragon Dance
- Brick Break
Shuckle @ Amphorasite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Stealth Rock
- Infestation
- Toxic
Landorus (M) @ Pinsirite
Ability: Sand Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Brick Break
- U-turn
Edit: Some info on how the team works.
I added Zygarde because it’s the best check to AteSpeed Dragonite and is good setup sweeper due to pretty good bulk.
Shuckle with Mold Breaker and the decent typing of Bug/Dragon let’s it pop Stealth Rock and Sticky Web easily and Toxic/Infestation put a dent in whatever the opponent tries to stop it with.
Zeraora has the most spammable STAB move in Close Combat, Plasma Fists provides more good STAB, Play Rough provides coverage, and Volt Switch provides momentum.
Mimikyu has free setup, decent speed and great pre-setup attack, Play Rough provides good STAB, Shadow Sneak has STAB and priority while Drain Punch provides recovery and coverage to go with that excellent offensive typing.
Landorus is easily the best earthquake user in this meta and Pinsirite seemed like the best stone for it as it turns Lando’s Normal moves into great STAB options to go alongside Earthquake. Brick Break beats the Ice types that can threaten it and U-turn provides momentum.
Heatran provides a good switch in to the e-speeders that can threaten Zeraora and is a great Diancite user on a sticky web team that bypasses it’s only decent speed in this meta.
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Ahead of the upcoming Mix and Mega Open (don't forget to sign up if you haven't already!), the council voted on another quickban slate consisting of Urshifu-Single-Strike and Eternatus. As always, here are the results:
Urshifu-Single-Strike has been banned from holding mega stones! Tagging The Immortal and Kris to implement this on showdown.
Eternatus' vote ended up being unanimously No Ban, so for now we'll be waiting to see how the meta develops post Urshifu before considering any further votes on Eternatus or any other threats that have seen discussion such as Zygarde. In general though, if you have questions about the meta or future tiering, don't hesitate to ask me or other council members, or even post on this thread if that suits you.
Andyboy | Catalystic | Chazm | MultiAmmiratore | Stresh | |
Urshifu | Ban | Ban | No Ban | Ban | No Ban |
Eternatus | No Ban | No Ban | No Ban | No Ban | No Ban |
Urshifu-Single-Strike has been banned from holding mega stones! Tagging The Immortal and Kris to implement this on showdown.
Eternatus' vote ended up being unanimously No Ban, so for now we'll be waiting to see how the meta develops post Urshifu before considering any further votes on Eternatus or any other threats that have seen discussion such as Zygarde. In general though, if you have questions about the meta or future tiering, don't hesitate to ask me or other council members, or even post on this thread if that suits you.
Gman
Stay kind, stay compassionate
Hello everyone, I'm still retired but I wanted to help Multi out during WCoOMs, so I went on 4 building sprees and built 40 teams in 4 days :) You can find them all in this post.
I've decided to post my favorite team separately, however, to do it some more justice, and maybe to submit it as a sample, if you will.
(Importable in the image :3 This boomer's slowly learning!!)
The team revolves around Gyarapex: a reliable Lunala and Eternatus counter, this set can also support the team against Ho-Oh and Entei by delaying its mega-evolution. It spreads status even against Sablenite walls, and it can remove important items such as Heavy Duty Boots and Metronome to more effectively cripple Ubers. I recommend Mega-evolving Pex only when you believe that Mold Breaker Toxic/Toxic Spikes is going to be essential during that very turn, or when gaining the Dark typing/losing the Water typing is an absolute defensive necessity.
Zygarde is there as the main Toxic Spikes abuser. It heavily hits several of the mons that are not grounded or immune to Poison (Corviknight, Magearna, Landorus, Toxapex, Eternatus...). Substitute helps it to avoid Intimidate and Will-o-Wisp, and also to rack up Toxic turns. Dragon Tail might not be the most ideal 4th move, one could prefer Pain Split or Outrage; I enjoyed the idea of spreading status more effectively, though. I do not believe the Blissey match-up to be so bad as to warrant it, but one could allocate 188 EVs to HP to create 101HP subs and use the blob as set-up bait.
Lunala's set is easily explained: I was going for a secondary physical wall that could provide momentum, and it does this quite well. Will-o-Wisp allows it to cripple some physical attackers, as well as Steel and Poison types, and Hex has good synergy with it and TSpikes. However, the lack of offensive investment means that it will not hit very hard, so the spread might need some finer tuning.
Regieleki was a mon upon which I looked with extreme skepticism. However, I have to say that it fits really well on this team. I wanted Rapid Spin to avoid fogging away my precious TSpikes, and it gets it. I desperately needed immediate speed control, and Regi provides it in spades, with ESpeed on top of its monstrous Speed stat. Volt Switch pressures Flying-types and bulky Water-types while also providing momentum, and Altarianite grants it Pixilate, with which it can scare off Fighting-types and Zygarde. Finally, Explosion is a one-time nuke that, if used timely, can bring you back from a bad position.
Pinsirite Magearna pulls off work against Ground-types such as Excadrill and Landorus-T, spreading status with Tri Attack in the process. Furthermore, it can freely exploit Blissey as set up bait. If allowed to set up, it is usually bulky enough to threaten a sweep.
There is something enjoyable in Calm Mind sweepers coupled with TSpikes, and that is why my Slowbro also follows down that path, while providing bulk and more status chances. You may think it redundant, with a Toxapex, but Slowbro allows Pex to Mega-evolve with less opportunity cost, doubling down as a Ho-Oh and Entei counter while also covering Zygarde and Terrakion; plus, a double Regenerator core pre-mega is really convenient, at times.
I feel like the ban of Urshifu-S made this team more reliable, as it lacked a true counter to it, and had to resort to Gyaradosite guessing games. Threats that are still relevant include:
-Noivern: it hits everything quite hard. Taunt sets obviously screw over Toxapex and Magearna, invalidating their countering attempts. It hits Zygarde through the sub, and nothing but Regieleki can retaliate immediately.
- Electric-types: Weirdly, while Zeraora is manageable thanks to Lunala (unless Pinsirite Facade), other mons such as Zapdos, Tapu Koko, and opposing Regieleki require careful plays, and can force a preemptive Toxapex Mega-evolution. Pinsirite Regieleki and Zapdos can remove TSpikes while being immune to it, so they are hard to whittle down.
-Poison-types: The team has means to threaten them, of course, but since they remove TSpikes by merely coming on the field, the match-up is immediately more tedious when facing Eternatus, Toxapex, or even Toxtricity. Toxapex is hard to whittle down but fails to threaten back. Eternatus can be quite problematic until Metronome is knocked off. Toxtricity is very hard to stop if given a chance to set-up.
I hope you enjoyed this post! Do not hesitate to give this team (and more importantly, this metagame!) a try :3 Gman loves you all
I've decided to post my favorite team separately, however, to do it some more justice, and maybe to submit it as a sample, if you will.
The team revolves around Gyarapex: a reliable Lunala and Eternatus counter, this set can also support the team against Ho-Oh and Entei by delaying its mega-evolution. It spreads status even against Sablenite walls, and it can remove important items such as Heavy Duty Boots and Metronome to more effectively cripple Ubers. I recommend Mega-evolving Pex only when you believe that Mold Breaker Toxic/Toxic Spikes is going to be essential during that very turn, or when gaining the Dark typing/losing the Water typing is an absolute defensive necessity.
Zygarde is there as the main Toxic Spikes abuser. It heavily hits several of the mons that are not grounded or immune to Poison (Corviknight, Magearna, Landorus, Toxapex, Eternatus...). Substitute helps it to avoid Intimidate and Will-o-Wisp, and also to rack up Toxic turns. Dragon Tail might not be the most ideal 4th move, one could prefer Pain Split or Outrage; I enjoyed the idea of spreading status more effectively, though. I do not believe the Blissey match-up to be so bad as to warrant it, but one could allocate 188 EVs to HP to create 101HP subs and use the blob as set-up bait.
Lunala's set is easily explained: I was going for a secondary physical wall that could provide momentum, and it does this quite well. Will-o-Wisp allows it to cripple some physical attackers, as well as Steel and Poison types, and Hex has good synergy with it and TSpikes. However, the lack of offensive investment means that it will not hit very hard, so the spread might need some finer tuning.
Regieleki was a mon upon which I looked with extreme skepticism. However, I have to say that it fits really well on this team. I wanted Rapid Spin to avoid fogging away my precious TSpikes, and it gets it. I desperately needed immediate speed control, and Regi provides it in spades, with ESpeed on top of its monstrous Speed stat. Volt Switch pressures Flying-types and bulky Water-types while also providing momentum, and Altarianite grants it Pixilate, with which it can scare off Fighting-types and Zygarde. Finally, Explosion is a one-time nuke that, if used timely, can bring you back from a bad position.
Pinsirite Magearna pulls off work against Ground-types such as Excadrill and Landorus-T, spreading status with Tri Attack in the process. Furthermore, it can freely exploit Blissey as set up bait. If allowed to set up, it is usually bulky enough to threaten a sweep.
There is something enjoyable in Calm Mind sweepers coupled with TSpikes, and that is why my Slowbro also follows down that path, while providing bulk and more status chances. You may think it redundant, with a Toxapex, but Slowbro allows Pex to Mega-evolve with less opportunity cost, doubling down as a Ho-Oh and Entei counter while also covering Zygarde and Terrakion; plus, a double Regenerator core pre-mega is really convenient, at times.
I feel like the ban of Urshifu-S made this team more reliable, as it lacked a true counter to it, and had to resort to Gyaradosite guessing games. Threats that are still relevant include:
-Noivern: it hits everything quite hard. Taunt sets obviously screw over Toxapex and Magearna, invalidating their countering attempts. It hits Zygarde through the sub, and nothing but Regieleki can retaliate immediately.
- Electric-types: Weirdly, while Zeraora is manageable thanks to Lunala (unless Pinsirite Facade), other mons such as Zapdos, Tapu Koko, and opposing Regieleki require careful plays, and can force a preemptive Toxapex Mega-evolution. Pinsirite Regieleki and Zapdos can remove TSpikes while being immune to it, so they are hard to whittle down.
-Poison-types: The team has means to threaten them, of course, but since they remove TSpikes by merely coming on the field, the match-up is immediately more tedious when facing Eternatus, Toxapex, or even Toxtricity. Toxapex is hard to whittle down but fails to threaten back. Eternatus can be quite problematic until Metronome is knocked off. Toxtricity is very hard to stop if given a chance to set-up.
I hope you enjoyed this post! Do not hesitate to give this team (and more importantly, this metagame!) a try :3 Gman loves you all
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Got to Top 500 in the M&M Ladder with a singular team, so I'll post it here.
Rapid Strike Urshifu is really fun to use with a Scizorite, because of its access to Technician, making Surging Strikes effectively base 112.5 and it always crits. Also, Aqua Jet gets a big benefit from Technician, giving Urshifu a base 60 priority move. The last two moves can be whatever, but I used Close Combat and U-turn for momentum and fighting STAB.
When it comes to anti-hazard leads, you can't really go wrong with Regieleki. Refrigerate from a Glalitite makes it unable to be spin-blocked, as well as having a base 96 Ice-type Extreme Speed and base 300 Explosion. Trust me, I've taken out a lot of mons with lead Regieleki, from Extreme Speed to Explosion.
We all know about Aerilate Dragonite, dragon dances up, mega evolves, and sweeps. Pinsirite allows Dragonite to get STAB on Extreme Speed, Earthquake for coverage, yeah you get it.
Entei with an Altarianite hits really hard, and gives the team a Fairy type. Along with this, Extreme Speed is Fairy STAB and Sacred Fire burns 50% of the time, which can really help out. Stone Edge and Stomping Tantrum also gives the fire dog some good coverage to hit plenty of mons supereffectively.
Lunala exists because my team desparately needed a special attacker, else I'd get walled out by Slowbronite users. Specs allows Lunala to hit like a freight train with Moongeist Beam, plus Ice Beam and Moonblast for coverage and Thunder because I got tilted by a rain team on the ladder.
Solgaleo is a really fast sweeper, as well as getting Tough Claws from its Metagrossite. Sunsteel Strike hits hard, Flare Blitz hits Steels, Psychic Fangs is STAB and abuses any Psychic Terrains that any Tapu Leles set up, and Earthquake exists for coverage.
That's the team. Almost went undefeated to top 500, but a rain team tilted me, destroyed me, and made me add Thunder on Lunala.
Urshifu-Rapid-Strike @ Scizorite
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Aqua Jet
- U-turn
- Close Combat
Regieleki @ Glalitite
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Explosion
- Wild Charge
- Rapid Spin
Dragonite @ Pinsirite
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Roost
Entei @ Altarianite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Sacred Fire
- Stone Edge
- Stomping Tantrum
Lunala @ Choice Specs
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
Solgaleo @ Metagrossite
Ability: Full Metal Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Sunsteel Strike
- Psychic Fangs
- Flare Blitz
Ability: Unseen Fist
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Surging Strikes
- Aqua Jet
- U-turn
- Close Combat
Regieleki @ Glalitite
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Explosion
- Wild Charge
- Rapid Spin
Dragonite @ Pinsirite
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake
- Roost
Entei @ Altarianite
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Sacred Fire
- Stone Edge
- Stomping Tantrum
Lunala @ Choice Specs
Ability: Shadow Shield
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Moonblast
- Thunder
- Ice Beam
Solgaleo @ Metagrossite
Ability: Full Metal Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Sunsteel Strike
- Psychic Fangs
- Flare Blitz
Rapid Strike Urshifu is really fun to use with a Scizorite, because of its access to Technician, making Surging Strikes effectively base 112.5 and it always crits. Also, Aqua Jet gets a big benefit from Technician, giving Urshifu a base 60 priority move. The last two moves can be whatever, but I used Close Combat and U-turn for momentum and fighting STAB.
When it comes to anti-hazard leads, you can't really go wrong with Regieleki. Refrigerate from a Glalitite makes it unable to be spin-blocked, as well as having a base 96 Ice-type Extreme Speed and base 300 Explosion. Trust me, I've taken out a lot of mons with lead Regieleki, from Extreme Speed to Explosion.
We all know about Aerilate Dragonite, dragon dances up, mega evolves, and sweeps. Pinsirite allows Dragonite to get STAB on Extreme Speed, Earthquake for coverage, yeah you get it.
Entei with an Altarianite hits really hard, and gives the team a Fairy type. Along with this, Extreme Speed is Fairy STAB and Sacred Fire burns 50% of the time, which can really help out. Stone Edge and Stomping Tantrum also gives the fire dog some good coverage to hit plenty of mons supereffectively.
Lunala exists because my team desparately needed a special attacker, else I'd get walled out by Slowbronite users. Specs allows Lunala to hit like a freight train with Moongeist Beam, plus Ice Beam and Moonblast for coverage and Thunder because I got tilted by a rain team on the ladder.
Solgaleo is a really fast sweeper, as well as getting Tough Claws from its Metagrossite. Sunsteel Strike hits hard, Flare Blitz hits Steels, Psychic Fangs is STAB and abuses any Psychic Terrains that any Tapu Leles set up, and Earthquake exists for coverage.
That's the team. Almost went undefeated to top 500, but a rain team tilted me, destroyed me, and made me add Thunder on Lunala.
Regarding Dragon Ascent
In the second Gen 8 DLC, the move 'Dragon Ascent', which functioned as the key to Rayquaza's Mega Evolution in Gen 7, was added to Pokemon Sword and Shield. Dragon Ascent is not currently accessible on any Pokemon that can pass Gen 8 Mix and Mega's validator (Rayquaza is restricted from Mega Evolving, and Smeargle, the only other Pokemon that could learn the move, does not exist in Gen 8), so Mega Evolution caused by this move might seem irrelevant.
However, there are several mashup environments usable on Pokemon Showdown in which this situation is exposed, STAB n Mega being the most prominent, but also e.g. National Dex Mix and Mega and Mix and Mega AG. Recently, users returning to STAB n Mega from Gen 7 reported that they were unexpectedly unable to Mega Evolve their Pokemon by including the move Dragon Ascent on their sets. After investigating this, Dragon Ascent does indeed seem not to be implemented in-battle in Gen 8 Mix and Mega.
At the least, there seems to be a minor inconsistency across the server between this in-battle behavior and the /stone and /mixandmega commands, which do treat Dragon Ascent as a legitimate parameter even in Gen 8 (in contrast to the Red and Blue Orbs, which are correctly rejected). Therefore, I would request MnM's council to please address this issue, and state whether Dragon Ascent Mega Evolution is intended to be implemented or not.
When this issue came up in chat, some users pointed to these statements from The Immortal from the FAQ as an indication that this issue had already been adequately addressed, the implication being that Dragon Ascent was intentionally discontinued in a similar way to Primal Orbs:-
Primal Orbs were removed due to Primal Reversion being a separate mechanic to Mega Evolution. Mega Rayquaza, on the other hand, is an instance of Mega Evolution (albeit specified in a unique way due to GameFreak's own arbitrariness). Therefore, I believe that based on the stated basis of Gen 8 Mix and Mega, the correct way to resolve the current inconsistency would be for Dragon Ascent Mega Evolution to be implemented as of DLC2.
In the second Gen 8 DLC, the move 'Dragon Ascent', which functioned as the key to Rayquaza's Mega Evolution in Gen 7, was added to Pokemon Sword and Shield. Dragon Ascent is not currently accessible on any Pokemon that can pass Gen 8 Mix and Mega's validator (Rayquaza is restricted from Mega Evolving, and Smeargle, the only other Pokemon that could learn the move, does not exist in Gen 8), so Mega Evolution caused by this move might seem irrelevant.
However, there are several mashup environments usable on Pokemon Showdown in which this situation is exposed, STAB n Mega being the most prominent, but also e.g. National Dex Mix and Mega and Mix and Mega AG. Recently, users returning to STAB n Mega from Gen 7 reported that they were unexpectedly unable to Mega Evolve their Pokemon by including the move Dragon Ascent on their sets. After investigating this, Dragon Ascent does indeed seem not to be implemented in-battle in Gen 8 Mix and Mega.
At the least, there seems to be a minor inconsistency across the server between this in-battle behavior and the /stone and /mixandmega commands, which do treat Dragon Ascent as a legitimate parameter even in Gen 8 (in contrast to the Red and Blue Orbs, which are correctly rejected). Therefore, I would request MnM's council to please address this issue, and state whether Dragon Ascent Mega Evolution is intended to be implemented or not.
When this issue came up in chat, some users pointed to these statements from The Immortal from the FAQ as an indication that this issue had already been adequately addressed, the implication being that Dragon Ascent was intentionally discontinued in a similar way to Primal Orbs:-
However, these statements seem to focus only Primal Orbs, Aggronite and Galar versus National Dex, while Dragon Ascent does not seem to have been addressed specifically, or even as a generality. Rather, since Dragon Ascent did not exist in Sword/Shield at the time they were made - and there was little reason even to believe that it might be returned in future - the current situation regarding it may not have been considered in depth.
Primal Orbs were removed due to Primal Reversion being a separate mechanic to Mega Evolution. Mega Rayquaza, on the other hand, is an instance of Mega Evolution (albeit specified in a unique way due to GameFreak's own arbitrariness). Therefore, I believe that based on the stated basis of Gen 8 Mix and Mega, the correct way to resolve the current inconsistency would be for Dragon Ascent Mega Evolution to be implemented as of DLC2.
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This is the concept of Mix and Mega as taken from the OP. It is straightforward and nowhere mentions the case of Dragon Ascent, nor should it. Dragon Ascent does not exist here. The concept need not be altered and made complex for the sake of side metagames.
Dragon Ascent Mega Evolution does not work in Gen 8 formats outside of National Dex and that is fully intended.
I see. But if that is the case, what is going on here - will this parameter be removed from Gen 8 in future?
Here’s a team that’s won me every game I played with it so far: thought I might submit it here. Thx to GamerOGuy for some of the ideas.
Vaporeon @ Sablenite
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Scald
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Altarianite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Body Slam
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Rock Polish
Corviknight @ Venusaurite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 2 / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Defog
- Body Press
- Roost
Zeraora @ Loppunite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Close Combat
- Play Rough
- Volt Switch
Solgaleo @ Metagrossite
Ability: Full Metal Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Psychic Fangs
- Flare Blitz
- Earthquake
Blacephalon @ Diancite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic
Vaporeon @ Sablenite
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Toxic
- Scald
Landorus-Therian (M) @ Altarianite
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Body Slam
- U-turn
- Earthquake
- Rock Polish
Corviknight @ Venusaurite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 2 / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Bulk Up
- Defog
- Body Press
- Roost
Zeraora @ Loppunite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Plasma Fists
- Close Combat
- Play Rough
- Volt Switch
Solgaleo @ Metagrossite
Ability: Full Metal Body
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sunsteel Strike
- Psychic Fangs
- Flare Blitz
- Earthquake
Blacephalon @ Diancite
Ability: Beast Boost
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shadow Ball
- Flamethrower
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic
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coming hot off a loss in open atm , i thought posting my teams + thoughts on meta would cool me down from w/e the mindset im in.
So before this open started , I built a ton of teams post shifu meta cuz ever since dlc 2 dropped I wasn't that invested in the meta and was hoping to turn things around. Most were trash but I'll paste the one's I feel like will do good on ladder plus can be eligible for samples
( Keep in mind the EVs might be really whack on some for a specific scenario so u can just use EVs from the set compendium for the most part)
pretty basic team that I spammed on ladder. This originally had a really whack dnite set with curse and no espeed which for some reason I thought would be p cool but I reverted to the standard bulky set after finding out that there was literally 0 advantage of running that over the normal one. This team could struggle vs a well played pins zera or explosion spam but overall is p solid.
showcases ada meta victini, a mon I feel like has a lot of potential if played right. this team basically facilitates a zyg sweep after tini wallbreaks a ton of stuff. I think a team revolving around luc zyg to sweep + a wall breaker and 4 defensive support mons in general is imo one of the best ways u could make use of luc zyg and this is no exception either. One slight change I would recommend is outrage/pain split over espeed on luc zyg. I feel like on ladder espeed is generally more helpful but that's upto u.
Prob one of the better teams I've built (atleast acc to me). I'm a fan of phero after shifu ban and I think ada phero is something that's really scary if u play it right. Both lopunnite/aero acc to me are the two best choices atm for it.
i intended to bring this vs cheese555. This team's main focus is adamant glalitite zera with knock off. Refrigerate mega kick really fucks around stuff like etern or Lando. My main thought was getting a bulk up on a switch in to hippo and then 2hko it something which adamant pins zera can't do( it's a roll).it's a cool tech but not something u can truly rely on over and over again. Also the Lando is mostly for getting rocks up and then boom. The speed there is to creep alt entei (I think)
this is a team I've recently built. I wanted to try out rapid shifu. I think ice punch is the better 4th overall over tpunch mainly for etern and dnite and also the fact that banet pex now usually runs spd. The mandi is gyara so that u don't lose to cm sable psychics(I'll talk about this later).
Another team I feel super good about. I deviated from usual builds of 4 defensive mons vs cata and I think that paid off p well. Adamant pins zera is something that's I'm experimenting with quite a lot now and it's been genuinely really good. The biggest thing is it has a favourable roll to 2hko non sablenite hippo with the usual sequence( bulk up--> mega kick on curse ---> mega kick hippo at +1) altho u still need luck considering the roll + chances to miss mega kick. The mandi is venusaurite mainly cuz I was afraid of cata bringing calyrex or triple axel phero , both which can tear through this team without mandi(not that ur 100% safe even with mandi).Mew was wisp for calyrex ice /kyurem and in case cata brought outrage luc zyg.
this team is really wierd but still works really well vs most mu's. so vs chazm I started with the idea of teleport blissey + solgaleo to counter etern. I noticed I always had either pex or rhyperior in my team to check etern so I figured I need to switch up so that this wasn't taken advantage of. The blissey spread here is 4+ spd since I was super paranoid about etern. Crunch on solgaleo for lunala since I knew chazm loved to use lunala. The other thing different about this team is toxic etern. I knew chazm liked to use ho-oh a lot and there was a good chance I see ho-oh in all the 3 games. Curse ho-oh was something that I notice could just win vs this if zera was weakened enough so I knew etern had to run toxic. Overall I feel like in practice this is a really good team seeming very dumb on paper.
another team I was really excited to use especially vs opponents like multi if I did get him. Idt this is particularly well made or anything and it prob is a step down from all teams I posted but it's fun to use. Glalitite Lando is bait for zapdos and sablenite corvi two mons which wall other varients of it. Calyrex ice is a beast vs teams relying on zap + lunala as their defensive core and sable glowking is to check etern + function as a cm setup sweeper late game.
Apart from teams , I do wanna talk about stuff that I think is really good atm.
CM Setup Sweepers
with urshifu gone , sable slowbro and mew can run freely without worrying much. I feel like these are being under prepped for and I think they can win from preview vs a lot of mu. In my series vs cata we both brought one of these and needless to say they both played a significant role in each of our win. I also brought a similar build with cm sable mew vs chazm g3 and I think that team turned out to be really solid as well. Amphy blissey is a decent check to this but I feel like u amphy blissey is a mon that can easily be played around about. Lunala, gyara mandi and gyara pex are other decent checks. (Altho u need to crit with lunala if u switch in on +1 unless ur offensive spread)
Eternatus
Even tho this hasn't been that much of a problem I thought it would be after shifu ban ,I still kinda want it gone(shouldn't come of a surprise to anyone I believe). I still think it's restrictive on the builder and is able to do a lot in the game even if metronome is knocked off. it's not overly broken tho and I see why most (if not all) people are fine with it staying. Still gonna push for a ban tho
I think the post is long enough . I'll bring other things on discord to have discussion there.
So before this open started , I built a ton of teams post shifu meta cuz ever since dlc 2 dropped I wasn't that invested in the meta and was hoping to turn things around. Most were trash but I'll paste the one's I feel like will do good on ladder plus can be eligible for samples
( Keep in mind the EVs might be really whack on some for a specific scenario so u can just use EVs from the set compendium for the most part)
pretty basic team that I spammed on ladder. This originally had a really whack dnite set with curse and no espeed which for some reason I thought would be p cool but I reverted to the standard bulky set after finding out that there was literally 0 advantage of running that over the normal one. This team could struggle vs a well played pins zera or explosion spam but overall is p solid.
showcases ada meta victini, a mon I feel like has a lot of potential if played right. this team basically facilitates a zyg sweep after tini wallbreaks a ton of stuff. I think a team revolving around luc zyg to sweep + a wall breaker and 4 defensive support mons in general is imo one of the best ways u could make use of luc zyg and this is no exception either. One slight change I would recommend is outrage/pain split over espeed on luc zyg. I feel like on ladder espeed is generally more helpful but that's upto u.
Prob one of the better teams I've built (atleast acc to me). I'm a fan of phero after shifu ban and I think ada phero is something that's really scary if u play it right. Both lopunnite/aero acc to me are the two best choices atm for it.
i intended to bring this vs cheese555. This team's main focus is adamant glalitite zera with knock off. Refrigerate mega kick really fucks around stuff like etern or Lando. My main thought was getting a bulk up on a switch in to hippo and then 2hko it something which adamant pins zera can't do( it's a roll).it's a cool tech but not something u can truly rely on over and over again. Also the Lando is mostly for getting rocks up and then boom. The speed there is to creep alt entei (I think)
this is a team I've recently built. I wanted to try out rapid shifu. I think ice punch is the better 4th overall over tpunch mainly for etern and dnite and also the fact that banet pex now usually runs spd. The mandi is gyara so that u don't lose to cm sable psychics(I'll talk about this later).
Another team I feel super good about. I deviated from usual builds of 4 defensive mons vs cata and I think that paid off p well. Adamant pins zera is something that's I'm experimenting with quite a lot now and it's been genuinely really good. The biggest thing is it has a favourable roll to 2hko non sablenite hippo with the usual sequence( bulk up--> mega kick on curse ---> mega kick hippo at +1) altho u still need luck considering the roll + chances to miss mega kick. The mandi is venusaurite mainly cuz I was afraid of cata bringing calyrex or triple axel phero , both which can tear through this team without mandi(not that ur 100% safe even with mandi).Mew was wisp for calyrex ice /kyurem and in case cata brought outrage luc zyg.
this team is really wierd but still works really well vs most mu's. so vs chazm I started with the idea of teleport blissey + solgaleo to counter etern. I noticed I always had either pex or rhyperior in my team to check etern so I figured I need to switch up so that this wasn't taken advantage of. The blissey spread here is 4+ spd since I was super paranoid about etern. Crunch on solgaleo for lunala since I knew chazm loved to use lunala. The other thing different about this team is toxic etern. I knew chazm liked to use ho-oh a lot and there was a good chance I see ho-oh in all the 3 games. Curse ho-oh was something that I notice could just win vs this if zera was weakened enough so I knew etern had to run toxic. Overall I feel like in practice this is a really good team seeming very dumb on paper.
another team I was really excited to use especially vs opponents like multi if I did get him. Idt this is particularly well made or anything and it prob is a step down from all teams I posted but it's fun to use. Glalitite Lando is bait for zapdos and sablenite corvi two mons which wall other varients of it. Calyrex ice is a beast vs teams relying on zap + lunala as their defensive core and sable glowking is to check etern + function as a cm setup sweeper late game.
Apart from teams , I do wanna talk about stuff that I think is really good atm.
CM Setup Sweepers
with urshifu gone , sable slowbro and mew can run freely without worrying much. I feel like these are being under prepped for and I think they can win from preview vs a lot of mu. In my series vs cata we both brought one of these and needless to say they both played a significant role in each of our win. I also brought a similar build with cm sable mew vs chazm g3 and I think that team turned out to be really solid as well. Amphy blissey is a decent check to this but I feel like u amphy blissey is a mon that can easily be played around about. Lunala, gyara mandi and gyara pex are other decent checks. (Altho u need to crit with lunala if u switch in on +1 unless ur offensive spread)
Eternatus
Even tho this hasn't been that much of a problem I thought it would be after shifu ban ,I still kinda want it gone(shouldn't come of a surprise to anyone I believe). I still think it's restrictive on the builder and is able to do a lot in the game even if metronome is knocked off. it's not overly broken tho and I see why most (if not all) people are fine with it staying. Still gonna push for a ban tho
I think the post is long enough . I'll bring other things on discord to have discussion there.
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My first forum post!
Just wanted to share some interesting sets:
Dusknoir @ Banettite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 52 Def / 200 SpD
Careful Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Haze
- Pain Split
- Poltergeist
With a combination of haze and will-o-wisp, Dusknoir can shut down many physical setup sweepers. It also has a strong STAB move in Poltergeist and healing in pain split.
Regieleki @ Glalitite
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 252 Atk / 200 SpA / 56 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Thunder Cage
- Volt Switch
- Explosion
An all-out attacker that outspeeds nearly all non-boosted mons in the metagame. Ice+Electric = near perfect coverage. Can pivot with volt switch, trap with thunder cage, has priority on extremespeed and wreck everything with explosion.
Skarmory @ Venusaurite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Bold Nature
- Roost
- Counter/Brave bird
- Spikes
- Defog/Whirlwind
A great physical wall with only one weakness (electric) when mega evolved.
Just wanted to share some interesting sets:
Dusknoir @ Banettite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 52 Def / 200 SpD
Careful Nature
- Will-O-Wisp
- Haze
- Pain Split
- Poltergeist
With a combination of haze and will-o-wisp, Dusknoir can shut down many physical setup sweepers. It also has a strong STAB move in Poltergeist and healing in pain split.
Regieleki @ Glalitite
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 252 Atk / 200 SpA / 56 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Extreme Speed
- Thunder Cage
- Volt Switch
- Explosion
An all-out attacker that outspeeds nearly all non-boosted mons in the metagame. Ice+Electric = near perfect coverage. Can pivot with volt switch, trap with thunder cage, has priority on extremespeed and wreck everything with explosion.
Skarmory @ Venusaurite
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 232 Def / 24 Spe
Bold Nature
- Roost
- Counter/Brave bird
- Spikes
- Defog/Whirlwind
A great physical wall with only one weakness (electric) when mega evolved.
Thought I’d share my top 500 team here. Tell me what you think! https://pokepast.es/bd355c4e14177bc7
The Internet is a mysterious place. Sometimes, you encounter soy wojaks and gigachads. Sometimes, you come across a girlboss.
After DLC2 dropped, I left Showdown. I didn't want to face Entei. The thought of facing Dragonite and Zygarde frightened me. But a girlboss never stops winning. A girlboss sometimes joins the dark side to get those wins. A girlboss sacrifices her dignity for the greater good: internet points.
Poképaste available here!
You know them, you hate them, you wish they'd never existed. These two hit like trucks. Two trucks... having... Wait, I can't say that.
The plan is simple: You mega evolve. You press Extreme Speed. Sometimes, you press other moves. But also Extreme Speed.
The main defensive core. Venusaurite Solgaleo completely walls Entei, and can cripple it with Thunder Wave. They also cover their weaknesses very well! Solgaleo is very strong, but I don't think a ban is warranted. It's the ESpeed check we've been lacking for such a long time.
The lead. I've used this set in a previous team, this one. I think Jirachi is very slept on, and it's a mon I'd like to see more in the future. If you're not sure if your opponent carries a Magic Bounce stone, press Doom Desire! Force those plays!
4 out of 6 mons in this team are Physical attackers. I needed a Special attacker, and Spectrier's pretty good. There aren't many stones it can run well, but I've found better results with Gyaradosite, giving it a better defensive typing and letting it destroy Latiasite Heatran with Mud Shot.
espeed more like SHIT speed ahaahhahahahhahh
After DLC2 dropped, I left Showdown. I didn't want to face Entei. The thought of facing Dragonite and Zygarde frightened me. But a girlboss never stops winning. A girlboss sometimes joins the dark side to get those wins. A girlboss sacrifices her dignity for the greater good: internet points.
Poképaste available here!
You know them, you hate them, you wish they'd never existed. These two hit like trucks. Two trucks... having... Wait, I can't say that.
The plan is simple: You mega evolve. You press Extreme Speed. Sometimes, you press other moves. But also Extreme Speed.
The main defensive core. Venusaurite Solgaleo completely walls Entei, and can cripple it with Thunder Wave. They also cover their weaknesses very well! Solgaleo is very strong, but I don't think a ban is warranted. It's the ESpeed check we've been lacking for such a long time.
The lead. I've used this set in a previous team, this one. I think Jirachi is very slept on, and it's a mon I'd like to see more in the future. If you're not sure if your opponent carries a Magic Bounce stone, press Doom Desire! Force those plays!
4 out of 6 mons in this team are Physical attackers. I needed a Special attacker, and Spectrier's pretty good. There aren't many stones it can run well, but I've found better results with Gyaradosite, giving it a better defensive typing and letting it destroy Latiasite Heatran with Mud Shot.
espeed more like SHIT speed ahaahhahahahhahh
Miscellaneous MnM happenings Part 1:
The Viability rankings have now been updated. You can check out the new VR here.
Sample Teams have also been updated. Those can be found in the second post of this thread here.
MultiAmmiratore has decided to step down from the council due to other commitments. Thank you for your time. We've also decided to bring Quantum Tesseract back onto the council, be sure to congratulate him whenever you see him around.
Lastly, the schedule for OM Classic II has been announced. If you fancy playing some more competitive Gen 7 Mix and Mega, be sure to check out this thread so that you can sign up when the time comes! If you're less experienced with Gen 7, you can also check out the new Mix and Mega Old Gens Hub or join the Mix and Mega Discord where there is now a channel for discussing old gens.
Part 2 will hopefully be coming later this week so stay tuned...
The Viability rankings have now been updated. You can check out the new VR here.
Sample Teams have also been updated. Those can be found in the second post of this thread here.
MultiAmmiratore has decided to step down from the council due to other commitments. Thank you for your time. We've also decided to bring Quantum Tesseract back onto the council, be sure to congratulate him whenever you see him around.
Lastly, the schedule for OM Classic II has been announced. If you fancy playing some more competitive Gen 7 Mix and Mega, be sure to check out this thread so that you can sign up when the time comes! If you're less experienced with Gen 7, you can also check out the new Mix and Mega Old Gens Hub or join the Mix and Mega Discord where there is now a channel for discussing old gens.
Part 2 will hopefully be coming later this week so stay tuned...
With the Open now done and there being still time for ssnl/ompl, I think now is the best time for identifying threats and work into the meta. I'll share my thoughts on either the pokemon I think should be suspected or the mons that have generally been brought in discussion in discord.
Zacian-Hero
A mon that was recently rediscovered in the later rounds of open, Zacian-Hero with band quickly became a very capable wallbreaker being able to 2hko almost the entire meta. Unlike Dlc 1, where Zacian ran a lo + sd set, Choice Band allows Zacian to run an additional coverage thereby hitting almost every defensive wall present either with se or neutral attack(which more often than not 2hkoes). It also has the liberty of running adamant nature which further makes its defensive counterplay non existant. As someone who originally thought this mon was worth B+ in the VR as its still a mon that is not easily splashable and does need to played carefully in a game, I quickly realised these shortcomings did not impact its abilities significantly and while manectite mons like mag/solg can technically check it , they arent exactly great atm both in terms of viability and splashability in teams and one may find them not desirable in in non-zacian mu's.
However despite all this, Zacian isnt an auto win in any way. The user itself has to win some of 50/50s to sweep especially vs specific defensive cores. I, myself use an Alt Hippo + Ho-oh core allowing me to scout and the switch to the other mon to wall. This strategy , however loses long term or even against a early good predict by the zac user. Offensive pressure can be applied on zac by the evercommon -ate speed users or spectrier and zeraora. Short term counterplay may work if the zacian user missplays but its inconsistent enough for me to disregard it completely. A very specific scenario which is i feel would berelevant enough is the fact that zacian can bluff CB while actually setting up. This recently happened in my game vs chazm ( [Gen 8] Mix and Mega replay: Chazm vs. Redflix - Pokémon Showdown (pokemonshowdown.com) ) where i used manectite zapdos ( can tank 2 hits from cb zacian if SR isnt up) and roosted turn 1 to scout for a move but chazm revealed it was actually SD. This game also shows the previously mentioned minor downsides as my Zac lost both 50/50s and thus wasnt able to deal significant damage to chazm's team.
Regieleki
Was brought up by Jordy in the discord and has also been discussed within the council. Many members of the community have expressed their opinion on Eleki being broken enough to be suspect tested first. I'll be starting with saying, I personally don't have a strong opinion on this and while I do see its merits and the frustration it causes within the game , there are also downsides of this which imo are more significant than Zacian.
Eleki is a momentum machine, and is able to generate momentum vs very common switch ins like etern/lunala/solgaleo. Access to Extreme Speed means it also functions as a revenge killer which is particularly effective against Zeraora, Spectrier. Eleki is also the best abuser of Explosion in Mix and Mega and is able to get rid of Users like alt Hippo/ Etern which otherwise wall it completely. This ability of Eleki to get rid of the mons which are thought to be a hard counter is impressive and terrifying cuz this often allows Eleki to pave way for a sweep by another team member of its which could've been walled by these mons Being able to remove hazards also makes Eleki very useful. The number of Eleki in the samples in itself tells about how useful Eleki is despite its mono type coverage. The common arguments of Eleki being stopped by ground-types such as Rhyperior or Landorus-T are right but also forget that enough chip to either these mons or lack of reliably recovery makes them shaky long term. The biggest issue with Eleki however is its inability to do significant damage to teams itself. This sometimes forces Regieleki to use explosion early which in turn can be predicted by the opposing user. Being unable to 1v1 a lot of metagame staples also hurts it enough.
Zygarde
Zygarde is one mon that sees discussion almost every time whenever broken things are brought up in mnm. Most , if not all players pretty much know what zyg does and how efficient it is in doing so and i myself cant disagree with this. However i never brought into the whole Zyg is an issue train. Lucarionite Zygarde is a monster yes but its also checked by common phy def walls like slowbro, Lunala , Hippo and Mew and most teams have atleast 1 of them. Its weakness to pixelate speed also enables it to be threatened offensively. Whats more is the fact that almost 90% of the checks to alt and luc varient overlap so u dont have to go out of ur way to add different checks for alt and luc ( Not to mention that altarianite has seen very less usage ever since it released). Outrage varients may be able to get past through the traditional checks but being locked into outrage often means that zyg is getting revenge killed. All in all , my point is that zyg is checked without being specifically prepped for in 90% of high level teams and i dont think this should be our top priority atm.
With all that being said, I personally think the right way to go now would be a Zacian suspect test first and then maybe Regieleki if it continues to be troublesome. I'd love to know everyone else thoughts on this either on discord or here. If u think there is some other mon that also needs attention , feel free to bring that in the thread so the council has a better understanding of what the community views as threats in the metagame atm.
Zacian-Hero
Zacian @ Choice Band
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge
- Crunch
Ability: Intrepid Sword
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Close Combat
- Wild Charge
- Crunch
A mon that was recently rediscovered in the later rounds of open, Zacian-Hero with band quickly became a very capable wallbreaker being able to 2hko almost the entire meta. Unlike Dlc 1, where Zacian ran a lo + sd set, Choice Band allows Zacian to run an additional coverage thereby hitting almost every defensive wall present either with se or neutral attack(which more often than not 2hkoes). It also has the liberty of running adamant nature which further makes its defensive counterplay non existant. As someone who originally thought this mon was worth B+ in the VR as its still a mon that is not easily splashable and does need to played carefully in a game, I quickly realised these shortcomings did not impact its abilities significantly and while manectite mons like mag/solg can technically check it , they arent exactly great atm both in terms of viability and splashability in teams and one may find them not desirable in in non-zacian mu's.
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zacian Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro @ Sablenite: 202-238 (51.2 - 60.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (with adamant nature play rough 2hkoes as well)
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon @ Altarianite: 208-246 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 390-460 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zacian Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Eternatus: 283-334 (58.4 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS Manectite Users
252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mew @ Manectite: 182-216 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO (with rocks its almost certain)
252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solgaleo @ Manectite: 176-208 (36.8 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Magearna @ Manectite: 126-149 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Hippowdon @ Altarianite: 208-246 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Ho-Oh: 390-460 (93.7 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252 Atk Choice Band Zacian Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 200 Def Eternatus: 283-334 (58.4 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
VS Manectite Users
252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mew @ Manectite: 182-216 (45.1 - 53.5%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO (with rocks its almost certain)
252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Crunch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Solgaleo @ Manectite: 176-208 (36.8 - 43.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Zacian Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Magearna @ Manectite: 126-149 (34.7 - 41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Regieleki
Regieleki @ Altarianite
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 252 Atk / 200 SpA / 56 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Volt Switch
- Extreme Speed
- Rapid Spin
- Explosion
Ability: Transistor
EVs: 252 Atk / 200 SpA / 56 Spe
Naughty Nature
- Volt Switch
- Extreme Speed
- Rapid Spin
- Explosion
Was brought up by Jordy in the discord and has also been discussed within the council. Many members of the community have expressed their opinion on Eleki being broken enough to be suspect tested first. I'll be starting with saying, I personally don't have a strong opinion on this and while I do see its merits and the frustration it causes within the game , there are also downsides of this which imo are more significant than Zacian.
Eleki is a momentum machine, and is able to generate momentum vs very common switch ins like etern/lunala/solgaleo. Access to Extreme Speed means it also functions as a revenge killer which is particularly effective against Zeraora, Spectrier. Eleki is also the best abuser of Explosion in Mix and Mega and is able to get rid of Users like alt Hippo/ Etern which otherwise wall it completely. This ability of Eleki to get rid of the mons which are thought to be a hard counter is impressive and terrifying cuz this often allows Eleki to pave way for a sweep by another team member of its which could've been walled by these mons Being able to remove hazards also makes Eleki very useful. The number of Eleki in the samples in itself tells about how useful Eleki is despite its mono type coverage. The common arguments of Eleki being stopped by ground-types such as Rhyperior or Landorus-T are right but also forget that enough chip to either these mons or lack of reliably recovery makes them shaky long term. The biggest issue with Eleki however is its inability to do significant damage to teams itself. This sometimes forces Regieleki to use explosion early which in turn can be predicted by the opposing user. Being unable to 1v1 a lot of metagame staples also hurts it enough.
Zygarde
Zygarde @ Lucarionite
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Outrage / Pain Split
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
Zygarde @ Altarianite
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Tail / Facade
- Thousand Arrows
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Thousand Arrows
- Outrage / Pain Split
- Substitute
- Dragon Dance
Zygarde @ Altarianite
Ability: Aura Break
EVs: 208 HP / 252 Atk / 48 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Dragon Tail / Facade
- Thousand Arrows
Zygarde is one mon that sees discussion almost every time whenever broken things are brought up in mnm. Most , if not all players pretty much know what zyg does and how efficient it is in doing so and i myself cant disagree with this. However i never brought into the whole Zyg is an issue train. Lucarionite Zygarde is a monster yes but its also checked by common phy def walls like slowbro, Lunala , Hippo and Mew and most teams have atleast 1 of them. Its weakness to pixelate speed also enables it to be threatened offensively. Whats more is the fact that almost 90% of the checks to alt and luc varient overlap so u dont have to go out of ur way to add different checks for alt and luc ( Not to mention that altarianite has seen very less usage ever since it released). Outrage varients may be able to get past through the traditional checks but being locked into outrage often means that zyg is getting revenge killed. All in all , my point is that zyg is checked without being specifically prepped for in 90% of high level teams and i dont think this should be our top priority atm.
With all that being said, I personally think the right way to go now would be a Zacian suspect test first and then maybe Regieleki if it continues to be troublesome. I'd love to know everyone else thoughts on this either on discord or here. If u think there is some other mon that also needs attention , feel free to bring that in the thread so the council has a better understanding of what the community views as threats in the metagame atm.
The MnM council is conducting a public survey of the playerbase's opinions on the current metagame. Anyone with a Smogon account is free to respond, however we have also decided to split the voters into two demographics in order to acknowledge those who are very vocal, experienced, or skilled in the current meta. For transparency's sake, these are the criteria to be counted as a "qualified respondent" (only one criterion needs to be met):
- All current council members
- Everyone who reached Round 4 in the recent Mix and Mega Open
- Everyone who played at least 3 games in the most recent World Cup of Other Metagames
- Everyone who was top 5 on the Mix and Mega ladder, not counting alts of the same user (as of April 4th 2021)
You will have around a week from this post being made to complete the survey if you want your opinions to be factored in. After that, we will release the results of the survey, including both of the aforementioned demographics (qualified respondent and general respondent). From there, we will discuss future tiering actions in preparation for OMPL (potentially a suspect test) depending on the results.
You can respond to the survey here.
- All current council members
- Everyone who reached Round 4 in the recent Mix and Mega Open
- Everyone who played at least 3 games in the most recent World Cup of Other Metagames
- Everyone who was top 5 on the Mix and Mega ladder, not counting alts of the same user (as of April 4th 2021)
You will have around a week from this post being made to complete the survey if you want your opinions to be factored in. After that, we will release the results of the survey, including both of the aforementioned demographics (qualified respondent and general respondent). From there, we will discuss future tiering actions in preparation for OMPL (potentially a suspect test) depending on the results.
You can respond to the survey here.
The deadline for responding to the survey has passed, so let's talk about the results!
We ended up with 13 qualified respondents and 6 general respondents replying to the survey, which is pretty good, and we'll definitely consider doing this again in the future.
^ Overall response graph
The 13 qualified responses ended up producing an average of 7.384/10, while the 6 general responses produced an average of exactly 7/10. This means that the survey respondents generally enjoy the metagame right now, which is good to know.
The 13 qualified respondents voted in favour of holding a suspect 11-2, while the 6 general respondents voted in favour of holding a suspect 5-1. This means that we definitely will be conducting a suspect in the coming days.
(didn't all fit into one screen sorry)
To summarize the average scores from these responses
Eternatus: 2.389
Zacian: 3.666
Dragonite: 2.611
Zygarde: 3.444
Regieleki: 3
Lunala: 2.389
(I am too lazy to count qualified responses 1 by 1 for this. don't sue me)
Overall, the community seems to be in favour of Zacian and Zygarde being the main targets for suspecting, with these two mons also being the only mons in the survey to score past the halfway mark on the scale.
The next two questions were both optional, and they allowed for free form responses, so I will use this as an opportunity to take note of some trends within those responses:
- Pretty much all of the long form responses noted that Zacian is very hard to switch into in practice, though the responses were more varied in their evaluation of whether they felt Zacian stepped over the line in this aspect of gameplay.
- Although Eternatus' overall response was lower than the other mons, multiple users took the opportunity to bring up Eternatus' ability to put immense pressure on mons that are typically referred to as "checks". We probably won't be doing anything with Eternatus any time soon, but the responses are interesting to note.
- Zygarde's access to Thousand Arrows was brought up a few times across these responses, users noted its ability to throw off checks to the Altarianite set by revealing Lucarionite, as well as some specific Zygarde-based archetypes such as Luc Zyg + Tspikes.
- Solgaleo and Pheromosa were briefly brought up as two pokemon that can be annoying to build against for some playstyles (outside of the mons already mentioned on the survey). Again, we don't really plan to suspect these mons in the near future, but it's useful information to keep in mind down the line.
With all of this in mind, and after some further discussion between council members, we have decided that we will be conducting a Zacian suspect test shortly, so be on the lookout for that thread in the next couple of days!
We ended up with 13 qualified respondents and 6 general respondents replying to the survey, which is pretty good, and we'll definitely consider doing this again in the future.
^ Overall response graph
The 13 qualified responses ended up producing an average of 7.384/10, while the 6 general responses produced an average of exactly 7/10. This means that the survey respondents generally enjoy the metagame right now, which is good to know.
The 13 qualified respondents voted in favour of holding a suspect 11-2, while the 6 general respondents voted in favour of holding a suspect 5-1. This means that we definitely will be conducting a suspect in the coming days.
(didn't all fit into one screen sorry)
To summarize the average scores from these responses
Eternatus: 2.389
Zacian: 3.666
Dragonite: 2.611
Zygarde: 3.444
Regieleki: 3
Lunala: 2.389
(I am too lazy to count qualified responses 1 by 1 for this. don't sue me)
Overall, the community seems to be in favour of Zacian and Zygarde being the main targets for suspecting, with these two mons also being the only mons in the survey to score past the halfway mark on the scale.
The next two questions were both optional, and they allowed for free form responses, so I will use this as an opportunity to take note of some trends within those responses:
- Pretty much all of the long form responses noted that Zacian is very hard to switch into in practice, though the responses were more varied in their evaluation of whether they felt Zacian stepped over the line in this aspect of gameplay.
- Although Eternatus' overall response was lower than the other mons, multiple users took the opportunity to bring up Eternatus' ability to put immense pressure on mons that are typically referred to as "checks". We probably won't be doing anything with Eternatus any time soon, but the responses are interesting to note.
- Zygarde's access to Thousand Arrows was brought up a few times across these responses, users noted its ability to throw off checks to the Altarianite set by revealing Lucarionite, as well as some specific Zygarde-based archetypes such as Luc Zyg + Tspikes.
- Solgaleo and Pheromosa were briefly brought up as two pokemon that can be annoying to build against for some playstyles (outside of the mons already mentioned on the survey). Again, we don't really plan to suspect these mons in the near future, but it's useful information to keep in mind down the line.
With all of this in mind, and after some further discussion between council members, we have decided that we will be conducting a Zacian suspect test shortly, so be on the lookout for that thread in the next couple of days!
Here's a pair of teams I made for slam
https://pokepast.es/3be9290250a71228
First off, the team I used against aesf in Semis. I got hilariously unlucky with it, but it still very nearly pulled off a win and the team composition is quite sound. Slowbro and Lunala cover almost every physical threat between them, while Ho-Oh and Blissey cover everything special. There's a strong pivot game here, with Teleport and Volt Switch, that I feel is one of the keys to making the best use of Zacian; he doesn't really do a great job of switching in on must, so you have to get him in safely with pivoting. This team also has an excellent rocker in Amph Bliss and several passive status spreaders that can go a long way towards making Zacian more effective, whether it be in turning move of Zacian's moves into KOs so it can take more risks to pick off switchins or just in making sure things get worn down more when Zacian misses a predict.
https://pokepast.es/6e4868e691c32b1b
Normally, the problem with Fast Offensive Ho-oh is that it isn't a great Regieleki answer, and that thing gets so much momentum you want as much available to tank its hits as you can. However, when paired with Swampert that whole issues goes away, allowing it to easily absorb fairy moves still while Swampert acts as a potent volt blocker. As Blissey is already around to set rocks, I instead opt for Yawn Swampert which can be kinda crazy in the righ MU, especially when paired with flip turn, but Rocks is pretty viable there too. CB Ho-Oh + Luc Zyg is a very potent offensive core, as Ho-Oh does a great job of weakening things like Slowbro, Defensive Lunala, and Dragonite while forcing out meddlesome Steel-type Pokemon, which goes a long way towards making Zygarde an extroardinarily threatening Pokemon. CM Latiasite Solgaleo is chosen to give a reliable check to stuff like Kartana or Dragonite without giving up too much offensive presence; since Luna is already pretty well covered, the main downside of this set is of lesser importance.
https://pokepast.es/3be9290250a71228
First off, the team I used against aesf in Semis. I got hilariously unlucky with it, but it still very nearly pulled off a win and the team composition is quite sound. Slowbro and Lunala cover almost every physical threat between them, while Ho-Oh and Blissey cover everything special. There's a strong pivot game here, with Teleport and Volt Switch, that I feel is one of the keys to making the best use of Zacian; he doesn't really do a great job of switching in on must, so you have to get him in safely with pivoting. This team also has an excellent rocker in Amph Bliss and several passive status spreaders that can go a long way towards making Zacian more effective, whether it be in turning move of Zacian's moves into KOs so it can take more risks to pick off switchins or just in making sure things get worn down more when Zacian misses a predict.
https://pokepast.es/6e4868e691c32b1b
Normally, the problem with Fast Offensive Ho-oh is that it isn't a great Regieleki answer, and that thing gets so much momentum you want as much available to tank its hits as you can. However, when paired with Swampert that whole issues goes away, allowing it to easily absorb fairy moves still while Swampert acts as a potent volt blocker. As Blissey is already around to set rocks, I instead opt for Yawn Swampert which can be kinda crazy in the righ MU, especially when paired with flip turn, but Rocks is pretty viable there too. CB Ho-Oh + Luc Zyg is a very potent offensive core, as Ho-Oh does a great job of weakening things like Slowbro, Defensive Lunala, and Dragonite while forcing out meddlesome Steel-type Pokemon, which goes a long way towards making Zygarde an extroardinarily threatening Pokemon. CM Latiasite Solgaleo is chosen to give a reliable check to stuff like Kartana or Dragonite without giving up too much offensive presence; since Luna is already pretty well covered, the main downside of this set is of lesser importance.
I didn't find a simple q/a thread, so I'll ask it here. What happens if I use Diancite on a mon with insanely low defenses (like Pheromsa)? Because the deduction is actually bigger than Pher's base defenses, will it trigger the overflow glitch in reverse?