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Phils trade two top prospects (Jared Cosart, Jonothan Singleton) and two PTBNL for Hunter Pence.

i will proceed to use this as another example of why Ruben Amaro Jr is a bottom tier GM. i now feel much better competing in a division where my team's GM (Sandy Alderson) runs circles around my team's best competition's GM.
That's not a bad trade for Philadelphia at all. Cosart and Singleton are top prospects, but they're still prospects, and neither have even faced double A yet, and how you perform in that level can make or break your career.

Besides, neither are even that great. Singleton projects to top out as a 20-25 HR player, which really isn't anything special at first, even with his good approach. Solid player, nothing more. Cosart is likely a reliever in the long run.

Meanwhile, Pence is a solid outfielder, and fits exactly what the Phillies need. He's a durable and reliable hitter, who also happens to play outfield and bats right handed, both thing the Phillies were really lacking. Any capable lefty could eat that lineup whole. Not only that, but he's under club control through 2013. I really like this deal for both sides, which is strange since neither front office is all that great.

This is a solid haul for Houston though. I give them a lot of credit for not backing down on their demands, and they eventually got what they wanted.

Now maybe they can also flip Michael Bourn to Atlanta. That's another good match.
 

aamto

on whom the three Fates smile
That's not a bad trade for Philadelphia at all. Cosart and Singleton are top prospects, but they're still prospects, and neither have even faced double A yet, and how you perform in that level can make or break your career.

Besides, neither are even that great. Singleton projects to top out as a 20-25 HR player, which really isn't anything special at first, even with his good approach. Solid player, nothing more. Cosart is likely a reliever in the long run.

Meanwhile, Pence is a solid outfielder, and fits exactly what the Phillies need. He's a durable and reliable hitter, who also happens to play outfield and bats right handed, both thing the Phillies were really lacking. Any capable lefty could eat that lineup whole. Not only that, but he's under club control through 2013. I really like this deal for both sides, which is strange since neither front office is all that great.

This is a solid haul for Houston though. I give them a lot of credit for not backing down on their demands, and they eventually got what they wanted.

Now maybe they can also flip Michael Bourn to Atlanta. That's another good match.
Pence definitely fits the Phillies...but the thing is, they didn't need to make this trade. without making it, the Phillies are still the best team in the NL, best record in baseball. The playoffs are a crapshoot, as well, with the game heavily slanted towards good pitching. Phillies already have a weighted dice rolling with their top 3 -- Hunter Pence will do little to help them win a WS ring. if they do, it'll be on the backs of Halladay, Lee, and Hamels. unlike SF, a team that couldn't score runs to save its life, Philly did not need an offensive boost. They are still 6th in the league in scoring as of today.

Bottom line is that, while it's a good trade and addresses a Philly need, they didn't NEED to make it. they gave up two top prospects (regardless of what you think their projections are, they are consensus A prospects) plus two PTBNL for decent corner OF in Pence who is about to get real expensive in arbitration.

The move demonstrates Ruben Amaro's fundamental shortcomings:

1. Unable to evaluate player talent or the market. Pence is a good player and will help the Phillies win a title this year more than Raul Ibanez or Dominic Brown could. But he wasn't the best player available! Amaro could have had Beltran at a much lower price (maybe just Cosart + low tier guy), who is far and away the better player than Pence. If Amaro really wanted a guy for next season, BJ Upton offers a greater upside than Hunter Pence and likely would have cost the same. if Amaro wanted to pay top price for top talent, he could have done better. If he recognized the market, he could have paid a pittance in comparison for Beltran or he could have paid almost nothing for a guy like Jeff Franceour (who, while he sucks, is still very good at hitting LHP, making for a good platoon with one of the corner OFs) or Josh Willingham. the upgrade wouldn't have been as large as with Pence but the price would have been far less and the impact will probably be the same: negligible. instead of winning the NL East by 5 games, they win by 6 or something.

2. No regards to finances. Pence is going to cost upwards of $25M from 2012-2013. With all the money that Ruben has committed (Ryan Howard, needing to retain Rollins, raises to all his other players) + a payroll that is already "maxed out," how can he expect to retain Cole Hamels? Hamels is on pace to shatter the biggest salary given to a pitcher. Contrary to what Philly fans believe, money does not, in fact, grow on trees. Hamels is going to cost north of $20M per year for 5 or 6 years (unless he were to take a huge discount to stay with the Phillies).

Philly fans can love this trade all they want as long as they recognize that it is a great overpay. to quote a super awesome owner, Pence is a good player. Not a superstar. a good player. And the Phillies paid superstar price for him. It will help them this year (although only marginally if they demote Brown and keep Ibanez playing). I just hope you all recognize what Amaro is doing to your club. with reckless contracts being given out and uneven player trades, he's shown he's a GM of the Omar Minaya school -- throw resources at a problem and hope it works for a year, the future be damned.

The Phillies were already a lock to go to the playoffs and already a favorite in that first series, no matter who they played. they are already a favorite in the NLCS (if they make it there) as well. This trade does not change that and that's why I don't think it's a good one. It makes sense and fills a need but it was unnecessary.
 

aamto

on whom the three Fates smile
Ubaldo Jimenez traded to the Indians. it's a good deal for both sides if Jimenez is truly healthy...but that's a huge if. reports have surfaced that Colorado denied the Yankees the right to give him a physical should they have completed a trade. this guy has somehow lost 3+ MPH off of his fastball this season and Colorado is not letting trading teams give a physical? something stinks here; why else would Colorado trade away a young, talented, affordable ace?

edit: apparently Ubaldo's start tonight for the Rockies (was pulled after 1+ innings, after deal was allegedly consumated) has turned the situation into a giant clusterfuck. nothing is official yet.

edit2: now it appears to be just a formality. trade will go through tomorrow at noon. Cleveland gets to give a physical. while i like the trade in that it helps them win, Cleveland should not be dealing prospects to win now. they are not a good team (started 30-15, now have gone 23-36, outscored by 80~ runs in that time) and they just gave away a big haul in a win-now move. also, you have to think Colorado knows something that it isn't saying about Ubaldo.
 
This isn't at all a win now move. Ubaldo's really good, really young, and has a really good contract. Guys like that simply aren't available everyday. If he's healthy, this is a big win for Cleveland. If not, then good on Colorado for extracting that much value.

Still, I love this move as a D-Backs fan. Pomeranz is terrific, but White is more of a #3 guy. McBride and Gardner are borderline organizational players. Colorado didn't get nearly enough for him IMO, but yeah, if they know something we don't, great value here.
 

aamto

on whom the three Fates smile
This isn't at all a win now move. Ubaldo's really good, really young, and has a really good contract. Guys like that simply aren't available everyday. If he's healthy, this is a big win for Cleveland. If not, then good on Colorado for extracting that much value.

Still, I love this move as a D-Backs fan. Pomeranz is terrific, but White is more of a #3 guy. McBride and Gardner are borderline organizational players. Colorado didn't get nearly enough for him IMO, but yeah, if they know something we don't, great value here.
it's not a bad deal and they certainly got a good player. but this Indians team is not good and that much is obvious. are they going to be this good next year? maybe with Ubaldo but they gave up a ton of surplus value in big prospects they could have had control of for a while. if this was last year's Ubaldo, i would like the deal more but the fact that he's lost velo and Colorado fsr decided to trade him, i have to say it's buyer beware for Cleveland.

Aces aren't available often but the circumstances of this trade raise some red flags to me AND Cleveland is not a team where an ace puts them over the top. Detroit (and Chicago even) are better teams and will continue to be better teams (as long as Detroit has Verlander and Cabrera). it's a good move for Cleveland in a vacuum, i just don't think they should be making it.
 

Stallion

Tree Young
is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Three-Time Past WCoP Champion
Very good trade for the Astros, they finally have some semblance of a farm now! In the long term I reckon the Phillies could have been fleeced but they're in win right-now mode and their offense has sucked this season, so this could be a huge piece to their title run!

Ps please make a deal to get Adams Texas and not Bell, Bell is overrated as hell.
Thanks for listening JD, I'll be sad to see Erlin in particular go but in the space of two days we've turned our bullpen from a big weakness to a big strength.
 
Ubaldo passed his physical, so it appears he's healthy. Also, while he did suffer a loss in velocity, that was early on in the season. He was back up in the upper 90's once he came off the DL. Anyways, some thoughts on the deadline moves...

Michael Bourn to Braves - Ah, classic Ed Wade. Just when I thought he might've had something with the Pence deal. The Astros got shafted in this trade. Bourn is a terrific player, better than Hunter Pence, yet Ed Wade refused to let people view him even as a half decent GM and goes on to give away his center fielder. Awesome trade for Atlanta. Love the organization, even though I'm rooting against them right now.

Bedard to Red Sox - He was the major name, but the most puzzling part of this deal is what the hell is Ned Coletti doing?! I do not understand their involvement in this deal at all. So glad he's in charge of the transactions for the Dodgers. Anyway, great haul for Seattle landing Trayvon Robinson and Chih-Hsien Chiang for Erik Bedard. Yes, they really did get a top 100 prospect for Bedard.

Mike Adams to Rangers - Even though the Padres are garbage, Jed Hoyer is really awesome. Great job landing Erlin and Wieland for a reliever, even if it is someone as good as Adams.

Fister to Detroit - This was yesterday, but still. Great haul for Seattle again, once again. Fister is a #3/4 guy who was sugar coated by Safeco.

Orlando Cabrera to Giants - Keith Law said it best: "The Giants, tired of playing a statue (Tejada) or an automatic out (Crawford) at short, acquire Orlando Cabrera, who is both" Neal is likely a fourth outfielder, but I think role players tend to get undervalued sometimes, and he was still a cost controlled asset, and this move, if Cabrera gets significant playing time, actually makes the team worse... LOL.

Ziegler to Diamondbacks - LET THE GOLDSCHMIDT ERA BEGIN.
 
I wish my Giants got Bourn instead of Beltran.. woulda been a better fit imo, but who knew Bourn would be available -.-.. dude is an underrated beast.. gold glove, speed, pressure on base, good contact hitter, and helping me carry my fantasy baseball team to first place in my friends league. Oh lord.. Astros fucked up.
 

Stallion

Tree Young
is a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnusis a Three-Time Past WCoP Champion
^ agreed, and after they made a really good deal for Pence too. I guess they've actually got a farm system again though, but why they didn't try and make a trade for an arm/prospect like Tehran or Minor from the Braves is kind of baffling (especially considering the Braves earlier stated theyd consider including Minor in a Beltran deal iirc and Bourn is much more valuable, especially long term).
 
well after maybe 4 years or so the Phillies will not be the powerhouse they are now because of their totally depleted farm system only the draft may help them however they wont be getting higher picks. Ruben Amaro has the win now attitude with Ed wade being the phillies santa claus in the background. In other stuff how is this Zach Wheeler kid he seems like a absolute stud ranked high in the Mlbs top 50 prospect list. Seems like a good deal on both sides.
 
bwebber said:
Fister to Detroit - This was yesterday, but still. Great haul for Seattle again, once again. Fister is a #3/4 guy who was sugar coated by Safeco.
I don't
understand why people bring up this point to detract the value of what the Tigers got. He's going from one pitcher friendly ball park to an even better pitcher friendly ball park in Comerica Park. That'll sweeten up his stats even more, especially with the run support he'll get! To also debunk the myth that he won't find success with Cabrera, Guillen, Peralta, and BranWilsRyDon BetBurnKelinge behind him- Take a look at another pitcher, Rick Porcello, who also pitches for contact. Outside of getting shelled by NL hitting (for reasons i still don't understand), he's enjoyed probably his best season yet in his career.
 
He's going from one pitcher friendly ball park to an even better pitcher friendly ball park in Comerica Park.
WOW. Are. You. Freaking. INSANE

Comerica is a neutral park. Safeco is arguably the best pitcher's park in baseball.

especially with the run support he'll get!
Huh? What? Run support doesn't help prevent runs... unless you're talking about W/L? Seriously, what semi mentally stable human being looks at W/L and takes it as being anything meaningful?

Take a look at another pitcher, Rick Porcello, who also pitches for contact. Outside of getting shelled by NL hitting (for reasons i still don't understand), he's enjoyed probably his best season yet in his career.
Oh yeah, 4.50 ERA/4.04 xFIP, JIZZTASTIC. I'm not sure you realize this, but that's a really bad infield defense.

Fister's a good pitcher, but 3.33 ERA good? Hell no. You remember Jarrod Washburn?
 

aamto

on whom the three Fates smile
WOW. Are. You. Freaking. INSANE

Comerica is a neutral park. Safeco is arguably the best pitcher's park in baseball.
true, but Safeco tends to help LHP a lot more than RHP (probably due the to fact that the park is death to RH power). I think Jarrod Washburn benefited more of incredible defense that year than he did from the ballpark.

Fister's a good pitcher, but 3.33 ERA good? Hell no. You remember Jarrod Washburn?
3.94 xFIP. not great but offhand, that's probably a lot better than the current Tigers 4 or 5 starter.
 
WOW. Are. You. Freaking. INSANE

Comerica is a neutral park. Safeco is arguably the best pitcher's park in baseball.
Perhaps i'm interpreting this wrong... But



Safeco compared to Comerica

It seems to me Comerica is slightly bigger. Maybe i'm interpreting them wrong. You've probably watched way more baseball than i have.



Huh? What? Run support doesn't help prevent runs... unless you're talking about W/L? Seriously, what semi mentally stable human being looks at W/L and takes it as being anything meaningful?
You can stop the tough guy act. I'm not feeling threatened by it. We talked about sweetening his stats. Meaningless or not, his Wins will definitely be inflated by one of the best offenses in the AL, no?



Oh yeah, 4.50 ERA/4.04 xFIP, JIZZTASTIC. I'm not sure you realize this, but that's a really bad infield defense.
Again, in his (and every other pitcher in the Tiger's rotation not named Verlander's) defense, NL bats shelled him and bloated his stats up. Ever since we got out of interleague play he's been playing to his ability (though i'll except that he may perhaps be overachieving). Take a look at his stats in July.

Fister's a good pitcher, but 3.33 ERA good? Hell no. You remember Jarrod Washburn?
Fister =/= Washburn. Fister isn't old and certainly does not (to my knowledge) have any growing leg pain that would hinder his pitching ability. This trade is a wait in progress, but as i see it right now, i don't think it's that bad of a trade as many see it. He's a middle of the rotation guy playing in a pitcher friendly ball park, which is what we needed ever since Phil Coke fell apart. We also have to remember the added prospects are due to the fact we got their second best relief pitcher.
 
You can stop the tough guy act. I'm not feeling threatened by it. We talked about sweetening his stats. Meaningless or not, his Wins will definitely be inflated by one of the best offenses in the AL, no?
If it is meaningless why even mention it? Offense does nothing to prove the pitcher's worth, which is what you're clearly implying. Ugh.

And about the Safeco/Comerica park factors and such, while the park factor of Comerica for left handed batters is actually lower (though not drastically) than that of Safeco's, Comerica actually has a positive value for right handed hitters. With that in mind, one can obviously expect RHB to have improved numbers against Fister, but I still don't think it really "matters" in the long run of this deal. The Tigers needed something to sure up the back end of their rotation, at that's what they got.
 
It seems to me Comerica is slightly bigger. Maybe i'm interpreting them wrong. You've probably watched way more baseball than i have.
Damn, so you're telling me that Coors is a pitcher's park?

You can stop the tough guy act. I'm not feeling threatened by it. We talked about sweetening his stats. Meaningless or not, his Wins will definitely be inflated by one of the best offenses in the AL, no?
Haha it's not a tough guy act, though I find it amusing how you acknowledged it. I just really hate being too subtle sometimes. Besides, enough with the wins. You're giving him credit for things beyond his control. It's completely illogical to even give that ridiculous statistic any merit whatsoever.

Fister =/= Washburn. Fister isn't old
You're taking that comparison waaaaay to literally.

i don't think it's that bad of a trade as many see it.
LOL, where exactly did I say it was a bad trade for Detroit? It's clear that you're just being a massive Tigers apologist right now.

We also have to remember the added prospects are due to the fact we got their second best relief pitcher.
No it wasn't. Pauley is a dime a dozen reliever. It's insane to think they'd give up Martinez and a PTBNL (likely one of Castellanos, Ruffin, or Smyly) for Pauley. That's just stupid.
 
3.94 xFIP. not great but offhand, that's probably a lot better than the current Tigers 4 or 5 starter.
And that's what I meant by "Fister's a good pitcher". He's also cost controlled, but to expect him to be anything more than a #4 really is just being too optimistic.
 
And about the Safeco/Comerica park factors and such, while the park factor of Comerica for left handed batters is actually lower (though not drastically) than that of Safeco's, Comerica actually has a positive value for right handed hitters. With that in mind, one can obviously expect RHB to have improved numbers against Fister, but I still don't think it really "matters" in the long run of this deal. The Tigers needed something to sure up the back end of their rotation, at that's what they got.
OK i'm wrong. sorry for all the commotion...
 
Erik Bedard is a good pitcher when his arm isn't detached from his body. They didn't give up much, but I think an ideal fit would have been someone more reliable, even if he is an inferior talent.The Red Sox needed someone to help shore up the rotation.
 
heh nice to see some kids catching up to the defending champs, man have the giants fell after getting beltran and cabrera

Red Sox wanted a #3 guy for the playoffs when they chose Bedard, I mean, with bucholz down for the year, they would have gone in with lackey or wakefield as the #3, and that is just.......no. the move was made with the playoffs in mind, because right now boston can get through the regular season even without Bedard just fine. if I were them I'd watch bedard's workload to save it for the playoffs. Lester-beckett-bedard looks perfectly fine.
 
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