Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

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In reality, for ghost, the issue isn't viable attackers. Although Aegislash fills an excellent role as one of the few strong physical attackers in ghost, it is not the only one. Rather, Aegislash aggravates the typing's fire weakness (perpetuated by the type's reliance on Will-O-Wisp to compensate for its lack of consistent bulk), and offers unreliable bulk at best in Shield Form. It has one status move, in Toxic, but doesn't have access to Will-O or Thunder Wave itself to act as a supporting mon, so most ghost users are forced to rely on their 'bread and butter' in the form of Gourgeist, Jellicent, Doublade, Cofagrigus, or others. The thing about ghost, though, is that no one team is the same. There isn't a mold that can be accepted that makes the team strong enough, but its issue isn't a lack of a physical attacker (found in Banette, in Golurk, and in Trevenant, if needed, all offering the same level, or greater, of coverage for a ghost team) but rather in its lack of a reliable way to get rid of hazards.

Ghost has one Pokemon that is legal that has access to the move defog. No ghost type learns rapid spin. This Pokemon is Drifblim, and for the many people out there unfamiliar with Drifblim, its base stats are 150/80/44/90/54/80 (BST of 498). It has access to the abilities Aftermath, Unburden, and Flare Boost (1.5x special attack when burned). It's not viable as a serious attacker given these stats. Its special attack is barely able to overtake Gengar in power, but due to its speed, without investment, it will be outsped and killed by most variants of Bisharp. Assuming that Drifblim has switched in to Defog at any point in the game, it is at most at 75% health.

252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 390-462 (77.3 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Being OHKOed by Bisharp is not a new thing for ghost type, but that's just a fact to life with the typing. Unfortunately, its best walls are Ubers material. Not many things can OHKO Drifblim, thankfully, but unlike some other Defoggers (Namely all of Flying type), Drifblim has no access to Roost or any recovery except for Pain Split (a highly unreliable recovery at that), so although it barely lives Flare Blitz from Charizard X (Not guaranteed)

252+ Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 331-390 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 256-303 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Gyarados Ice Fang vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Drifblim: 176-208 (34.9 - 41.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

On the special side

252 SpA Alakazam Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Drifblim: 255-301 (50.5 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drifblim: 290-344 (57.5 - 68.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Drifblim in Sun: 325-384 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

There is no doubt that Drifblim has decent bulk and some uses, but it's not able to consistently pull through for a team. Unfortunately, it's not even on the roster of most teams because, outside of Defogging, it doesn't have real use. It tends to run a full support set (Baton Pass Sets, Will-O, Walling Sets) all paired with Defog in an attempt to make it viable, but it's few and far between.

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Drifblim is not the only Pokemon that has access to Defog, though, as both of the other Ubers for Ghost Type, Arceus and Giratina, have access to Defog. Arceus has too strong of a movepool to be considered to be brought down, but Giratina has genuine potential for being brought down. Although it is a strong Pokemon, it is restricted in its own ways. It's considered one of the greatest walls in the meta, granted a strong typing in ghost/dragon, but it has limited coverage offensively (Running Dragon Pulse, Shadow Ball, Rest Talk and some other variants, but never really anything groundbreaking coverage wise) and is still walled effectively by some popular sets in the meta (especially Assault Vest sets, walled horrifically by special walls of all types) and is eventually forced to try and overpower by maxing boosts. It gets phased easily because of its reliance on Rest as recovery. This variant will be stopped mostly by physical attackers, and variants running Physical Bulk without Calm Mind, opting to burn, will be disposed of effectively by special attackers as well.

252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 216-254 (42.9 - 50.4%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 252-299 (50 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 306-360 (60.8 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 186-218 (36.9 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 270-320 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 288-342 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It is relatively effective at deflecting hits with its bulk, designed towards blocking these attacks, and the concern with bringing it down would be its Calm Mind set just for its ability to wall both Physical and Special Attackers effectively. At base 100 attacks, 120 in Origin Form, it's a decent attacker, but not a threat, another reason that people run its Calm Mind set.

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TL;DR, Bring down Giratina, despite its holding in ubers, for ghost typing to bring an option for Defog and a more reliable wall for ghost typing (The type plagued by Pokemon that either have high defensive stats or a high HP stat, never both, never balanced.)
Please no Giratina, please no break monotype :[
Nothing would be able to beat the Rest Talk CM set. Rest, Sleep Talk, Calm Mind, Dragon Pulse / Shadow Ball / Some Move. It doesn't matter if it resists if it's at +6 .3.
Also, it's Wil-o-wisp + Dragon Tail set would screw so many people over.
It's called the great wall of Ubers for a reason

However, a Mega Gar ban could be legit.. it'd get rid of walls like Chansey and Blissey, something Ghost can never seem to do.
 
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I don't think we should call these "complex" bans since smogon is still trying to avoid doing such things and it doesn't give an intuitive feel for what it actually is. I suggest calling them "Half" or "Mono" Bans to avoid confusion with the community outside of monotype.
Also considering we are bringing things like Genesect back, I feel like it would be healthy to bring Shaymin-S down (only for grass) even if it's just for the initial trial run of this until things start getting banned, at which point we can re-ban it. Seeing as there are many more viable ways to deal with it since Gen6's release with the increase in priority moves and faster pokemon, this isn't as bold a statement as in Gen5 when it was clearly unhealthy for anything.
I'd also be interested in seeing kyurem-w on an ice team.
These lower-tiered/neglected types need help.
 
I don't think we should call these "complex" bans since smogon is still trying to avoid doing such things and it doesn't give an intuitive feel for what it actually is. I suggest calling them "Half" or "Mono" Bans to avoid confusion with the community outside of monotype.
Also considering we are bringing things like Genesect back, I feel like it would be healthy to bring Shaymin-S down (only for grass) even if it's just for the initial trial run of this until things start getting banned, at which point we can re-ban it. Seeing as there are many more viable ways to deal with it since Gen6's release with the increase in priority moves and faster pokemon, this isn't as bold a statement as in Gen5 when it was clearly unhealthy for anything.
I'd also be interested in seeing kyurem-w on an ice team.
These lower-tiered/neglected types need help.
I completely agree with this. Some of the lower tier types like grass and ice could use some help. I think it could call for a more balanced meta with having a variety of types instead of the same 5 types that are mostly ran today.
 
While I am ok with the unbanning of most of bans. I do agree ghost does need a little umph it is lackluster besides aegis and gengar tbh.
 
I don't think we should call these "complex" bans since smogon is still trying to avoid doing such things and it doesn't give an intuitive feel for what it actually is. I suggest calling them "Half" or "Mono" Bans to avoid confusion with the community outside of monotype.
Also considering we are bringing things like Genesect back, I feel like it would be healthy to bring Shaymin-S down (only for grass) even if it's just for the initial trial run of this until things start getting banned, at which point we can re-ban it. Seeing as there are many more viable ways to deal with it since Gen6's release with the increase in priority moves and faster pokemon, this isn't as bold a statement as in Gen5 when it was clearly unhealthy for anything.
I'd also be interested in seeing kyurem-w on an ice team.
These lower-tiered/neglected types need help.
Personally, I'd love to have a Shaymin to abuse in my Grass team but as Articuno said, Shaymin-S was the only Pokemon that was unanimously banned (I've got to play the part where I argue 24/7 even though I want it to happen). Combined with its above average speed and decent Sp Atk it can easily sweep through unprepared teams. Not only that, it gets Serene Grace making it Togekiss on steroids but unlike Togekiss, it gets the coverage that it needs in the form of Earth Power. With that, it'll KO Max HP + Sp Def Heatran 93% of the time (Life Orb). Something that Togekiss can never do, even with a Nasty Plot. See something bulky? Spam Seed Flare and get that -2 drop 80% of the time.

Seed Flare:
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 153-183 (21.7 - 25.9%) -- 4.7% chance to 4HKO (w/o -2)252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Seed Flare vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 308-364 (43.7 - 51.7%) -- 10.9% chance to 2HKO (-2)

Air Slash:
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 97-114 (13.7 - 16.1%) -- possible 7HKO (w/o -2)
252 SpA Life Orb Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. -2 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 195-230 (27.6 - 32.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO (-2)

So Seed Flare once, hopefully get the -2 drop, then Air Slash 3/4 times and that's one dead Chansey. Also, since Seed Flare / Earth Power / Air Slash is only resisted by Zapdos, Skarmory and the Thundurus's you can choose between Substitute, HP Fire (Scizor), or HP Ice as your last move. They both have their uses.


Lets say Shaymin-S is allowed in Monotype. Then the only way to beat it would be to run something faster like a scarf, or Crobat, Aerodactyl, and Jolteon. However, this only limits it to Electric, Rock, and Flying monotypes. Not only that, Ferrothorn and easily wall Jolteon and Crobat (and Aero if it doesn't carry Fire Fang). Aero is killed by a common scarfer.
Scarves will usually try to hit it with super effective moves, but keep in mind that you have a Thick Fat Venusaur in your party, and a Ferrothorn that can take all the poison / rock moves you throw at it. But scarves are the best way to beat Shaymin and they're common enough.
Your other option is priority. Luckily Ice Shard absolutely demolishes Shaymin-S but it's limited to Ice, Water and Ground monos. (Mamoswine and Cloyster) Once again, Mamoswine / Cloyster is dealt by Ferrothorn and Mega Venusaur.

There are also other moves like: Shadow Sneak, Aqua Jet, ExtremeSpeed, Vacuum Wave, Bullet Punch, Mach Punch, and Sucker Punch.

Already, Aqua Jet, Vacuum, and Mach Punch are resisted. Mach Punch / Aqua Jet are some of the most popular priority moves out there. Also, keep in mind that Shaymin's defenses 100/75/75 are pretty good in OU.

Bullet Punch is mostly from Scizor. Phy Bulky Venusaur can easily take one and retaliate with Hp Fire (if it carries it), or switch into Ferrothorn and rack up thorns / helmet damage. Your last option is to stay in and take it before killing it with HP Fire.

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Scizor Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 205-243 (60.1 - 71.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Extremespeed is from Dragonites and stuff but once again, Ferrothorn says Hi. (Luckily for Grass Monotypers a majority of Dragonites run Earthquake instead of Fire Punch to hit the ever present Heatran.)

Shadow Sneak shouldn't do that much damage if it's unboosted. Also, the only viable Pokemon with it is Spiritomb / Banette and Shedinja.

Basically Shaymin's easily fast enough to sweep through teams w/o scarf making a scarf mon necessary if it's allowed in Monotype since it's the only way to beat it unless if you're a Water / Ground / Ice user. Even then, Grass has Pokemon who can sweep through these kind of teams (Notably Breloom). However, I'll be happy to see Shaymin get a trial run.

Also, about Kyurem-W, it'd absolutely rekt slow / bulky / stall teams. And unlike Kyurem-B it actually has a useable movepool
 
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Yeah, i feel like grass and ghost need to be buffed, but please no kyurem w in ice x.x that thing is op af as it shits on every special wall in the meta bar blissey and chansey obv. Also, the reason of these unbans, was that when x&y started, they were unbanned and we pretty much didnt have any problem with any of them, maybe aegislash but it has only been out for ghost, which i can understand why. Overall, i really like the fact of them doing unbans, and i hope to see shaymin-sky and potentially giratina origin, but im not sure about regular giratina, because its too damn bulky and that cm set mentioned is a real problem. Although shaymin-s can shit on alot of teams (use shield dust caterpie,totally counters it) and giratina origin can also do the same, so im not sure if it would be healthy for the metagame, but if i were to give an answer now, id say to keep them banned.
 
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Hoo boy, I don't check in for a few days and see what happens.

Anyways, I approve of the new system , but I'm not 100% sure on the choices. I guess time will tell whether just banning Damp Rock on Water is enough, as well as other previous OU bans like Genesect.
 
I feel like it might be unwise to ban stuff like Giratina, Shaymin-S, etc. These things actually do have a difference from stuff like aegislash and genesect. Stuff like giratina and shaymin-s were on the initial banlist for the generation; they were deemed obviously too powerful to stay in the meta. On the other hand, pokemon like aegislash, genesect, and mega mawile were more unclear, requiring suspect tests rather than quick bans.

Edit: And I still don't really get why genesect is being unbanned...
 
Hoo boy, I don't check in for a few days and see what happens.

Anyways, I approve of the new system , but I'm not 100% sure on the choices. I guess time will tell whether just banning Damp Rock on Water is enough, as well as other previous OU bans like Genesect.
At least something was done or so bout rain just a little. I don't necessarily agree with the unbanning of certain things at all (I despise the idea of bringing Genesect back into the fold for example) and feel a little appalled at the idea of letting stuff like Giratina and Shaymin down to play. Some complex bans are fine I guess but if you are really considering unbanning ubers, there really must be a lot of testing instead of just deciding, "Ya, lets drop it" cause the notion of Giratina and K-W dropping does scare the shit out of me (don't even need to say what Shaymin-S makes me wonder).
 
I feel like it might be unwise to ban stuff like Giratina, Shaymin-S, etc. These things actually do have a difference from stuff like aegislash and genesect. Stuff like giratina and shaymin-s were on the initial banlist for the generation; they were deemed obviously too powerful to stay in the meta. On the other hand, pokemon like aegislash, genesect, and mega mawile were more unclear, requiring suspect tests rather than quick bans.

Edit: And I still don't really get why Genesect is being un-banned...
This is exactly why I'm saying other things should be brought down from Ubers for the preliminary phases. Genesect itself is obviously too powerful, in my eyes, to be allowed in an OU level meta-game. You may not see it as such, but just as you see other things as obviously too powerful, perhaps I do not. Basically each thing needs to be given a fair chance to be tested. If we are bringing down anything that is too powerful, we should bring down all others that could be reasonably in question. We all know that Genesect and any others will eventually be banned anyways, don't we? So why even bother trying it to begin with if we are just cranking the same gears that were already turned at the start of the generation? The whole point is to see where this goes. I'm saying if we are going to go all the way through with retesting things, let's not half-bake it by cutting things without giving them a chance. We all know that people are going to abuse the Ubers for the first few days until they are re-banned, and chances are: you will too.

I don't feel like Shaymin-s is still obviously too powerful (even if we all feel that way) after the generation change any more than anything else, seeing as none of us have even seen how it behaves in the Gen 6 OU meta. Plus, there is the whole thing where we bring stuff like Deoxys-s/d (which we all know are too powerful but we use as a baseline to see what else is too powerful) back to see how the meta-game works around them. Plenty of things will be getting Ubered very quickly. What's the harm in testing one more thing that has not actually been tested before?
...and just saying: 252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 292-348 (85.6 - 102%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock ; plus nearly every team carries some form of priority to finish it off.
Isn't it common knowledge that combination grass+flying types have more weaknesses than any other existing type combination?

On the other side of the fence there are the main Ubers from each generation which should stay Ubers simply because they are on a whole other level with their typing, base stats, and special moves.
 
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This is exactly why I'm saying other things should be brought down from Ubers for the preliminary phases. Genesect itself is obviously too powerful, in my eyes, to be allowed in an OU level meta-game. You may not see it as such, but just as you see other things as obviously too powerful, perhaps I do not. Basically each thing needs to be given a fair chance to be tested. If we are bringing down anything that is too powerful, we should bring down all others that could be reasonably in question. We all know that Genesect and any others will eventually be banned anyways, don't we? So why even bother trying it to begin with if we are just cranking the same gears that were already turned at the start of the generation? The whole point is to see where this goes. I'm saying if we are going to go all the way through with retesting things, let's not half-bake it by cutting things without giving them a chance. We all know that people are going to abuse the Ubers for the first few days until they are re-banned, and chances are: you will too.

I don't feel like Shaymin-s is still obviously too powerful (even if we all feel that way) after the generation change any more than anything else, seeing as none of us have even seen how it behaves in the Gen 6 OU meta. Plus, there is the whole thing where we bring stuff like Deoxys-s/d (which we all know are too powerful but we use as a baseline to see what else is too powerful) back to see how the meta-game works around them. Plenty of things will be getting Ubered very quickly. What's the harm in testing one more thing that has not actually been tested before?
...and just saying: 252 SpA Jolteon Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 292-348 (85.6 - 102%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock ; plus nearly every team carries some form of priority to finish it off.
Isn't it common knowledge that grass+flying types have more weaknesses than any other existing type combination?

On the other side of the fence there are the main Ubers from each generation which should stay Ubers simply because they are on a whole other level with their typing, base stats, and special moves.
lol Grass/Flying has 5 weaknesses. Combos like Psychic/Rock and Ice/Grass have 7.
 

Beta.

Ruff Ruff amirite?
Considering what else exists in the tier, like the newly unbanned Genesect, I'm pretty positive that the tier is either gonna go the route of unbanning ubers, or banning everything. It's chosen the former route, and could even continue with it with a few other unbans (Shaymin Sky for Grass, Kyurem White for Ice, Talonflame for Fire (We can do complex bans now, woo), while also considering bans within the meta (Medichamite in fighting, for example). This is a completely different metagame from OU, and while there are still strong Pokemon, exceptionally strong Pokemon, there are weaker types that need them and stronger types that need fewer. This isn't as simple as remeshing the game haphazardly. To be completely honest, it should go through a series of tests to see what works and what doesn't not just snap decisions.
You want to unban Giratina and Shaymin-sky? You want to unban Talonflame? YOU WANT TO UNBAN KYUREM WHITE AND ARCEUS GHOST? WHAT. Ok..... Just... ok.

I understand that we have new unbanning things! New complex bans! Yay! Exciting! But,,, your choices are just so... bad. Our goal to unbanning isn't to make one type viable (like grass for shaymin sky, or fucking arceus for ghost) yet to make every type balanced. If you have to add a pokemon to a type, and that's when it becomes balanced, it's not balanced. That is just anti-meta.

Also, if you think that shaymin-sky is balanced, you are very mistaken. Shaymin-sky was sent to ubers because of it's ability, serene grace. a 30% chance flinch move and a 40% chance double Special defense drop move, both with strong, 127 base speed stab, and no possible way to defend against it, yup. Very Viable in Monotype.
 
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I don't know why your counterpoint to him was to cite two very uncommon type combinations that don't compliment each other in the slightest. Let's go ahead and note a few other Pokemon if we're doing that: Steel/Bug, Dark/Poison, Ghost/Dark. Each of these type combinations have exactly one weakness, while Shaymin sports a total of 5. It's not a question of its defensive capabilities, because there's no question that Shaymin is relatively frail in its Sky Forme. When we're looking at Shaymin, we should consider it, instead, against Pokemon like it--Pokemon with access to Serene Grace and Pokemon that fill a glass cannon role on the special side. It's irrelevant to consider typing as the primary means here, because we're not considering its defensive abilities. In reality, it's 4x weak to a priority that appears in OU (Mamoswine's Ice Shard), and if we're talking about how threatening it is defensively, we're also obligated to talk about its checks and counters.

244 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 437-515 (128.1 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I didn't ask for anything with the exception of Giratina in regards to ghost (Which, suspiciously, is not even mentioned in your post except in the first sentence, but instead Deoxys Ghost(???)), but rather mentioned other things I've heard people ask for in regards to their typing in response to this new banlist being posted. I completely support the idea of opening up an ubers metagame in a testing phase to determine what works in monotype and what doesn't. Like before, I've given suggestions and I've given reasons behind them, but instead of looking through the reasons and giving meaningful responses, people are just like, LOLno. The people mentioning Calm Mind Giratina were the ones that actually read the first post, and that's the concern with opening it up to the meta. In that same regard, certain other sets would be concerns in introducing any new mons to this, but if we're not unbanning, we're banning. There is a definite skew in favor of certain types.
 
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I didn't ask for anything with the exception of Giratina in regards to ghost (Which, suspiciously, is not even mentioned in your post except in the first sentence, but instead Deoxys Ghost(???)), but rather mentioned other things I've heard people ask for in regards to their typing in response to this new banlist being posted. I completely support the idea of opening up an ubers metagame in a testing phase to determine what works in monotype and what doesn't. Like before, I've given suggestions and I've given reasons behind them, but instead of looking through the reasons and giving meaningful responses, people are just like, LOLno. The people mentioning Calm Mind Giratina were the ones that actually read the first post, and that's the concern with opening it up to the meta. In that same regard, certain other sets would be concerns in introducing any new mons to this, but if we're not unbanning, we're banning. There is a definite skew in favor of certain types.
Of course there are skews to types, but instead of buffing types first, lets just take steps in the direction of getting what needs to be gone, gone first before suggesting dropping stuff.
 
You want to unban Giratina and Shaymin-sky? You want to unban Deoxys ghost? YOU WANT TO UNBAN KYUREM WHITE AND TALONFLAME? WHAT. Ok..... Just... ok.

I understand that we have new unbanning things! New complex bans! Yay! Exciting! But,,, your choices are just so... bad. Our goal to unbanning isn't to make one type viable (like grass for shaymin sky, or fucking arceus for ghost) yet to make every type balanced. If you have to add a pokemon to a type, and that's when it becomes balanced, it's not balanced. That is just anti-meta.

Also, if you think that shaymin-sky is balanced, you are very mistaken. Shaymin-sky was sent to ubers because of it's ability, serene grace. a 30% chance flinch move and a 40% chance double Special defense drop move, both with strong, 127 base speed stab, and no possible way to defend against it, yup. Very Viable in Monotype.
You didn't say a thing about Genesect, does that mean you think it is somehow balanced? I doubt anyone is considering Arceus-anything.
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 362-428 (106.1 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now, tell me it hasn't become more balanced since Gen 5.

Of course there are skews to types, but instead of buffing types first, lets just take steps in the direction of getting what needs to be gone, gone first before suggesting dropping stuff.
I agree, but what I'm saying is that if we are going to drop ridiculous things like Gensect, we shouldn't bypass all the others. We either shouldn't allow Genesect or we should give the following list a try in OU Monotype:

Aegislash (only for ghost)
Blaziken
Genesect (only for bug)
Kyurem-W (only for ice)
Shaymin-S (only for grass)
Talonflame

...and while we are using stupidly powerful things; un-ban all Mega-items until we re-confirm their over-powered-ness.
Otherwise we shouldn't even bother with allowing Gensect back into the tier, just allow Aegislash for ghost, maybe Mawilite for fairy, and forget Talonflame along with the rest. Psychic sure as hell doesn't need support from Deoxys-anything.
 
You didn't say a thing about Genesect, does that mean you think it is somehow balanced? I doubt anyone is considering Arceus-anything.
252 Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 362-428 (106.1 - 125.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now, tell me it hasn't become more balanced since Gen 5.


I agree, but what I'm saying is that if we are going to drop ridiculous things like Gensect, we shouldn't bypass all the others. We either shouldn't allow Genesect or we should give the following list a try in OU Monotype:

Aegislash (only for ghost)
Blaziken
Genesect (only for bug)
Kyurem-W (only for ice)
Shaymin-S (only for grass)
Talonflame

...and while we are using stupidly powerful things; un-ban all Mega-items until we re-confirm their over-powered-ness.
Otherwise we shouldn't even bother with allowing Gensect back into the tier, just allow Aegislash for ghost, maybe Mawilite for fairy, and forget Talonflame along with the rest. Psychic sure as hell doesn't need support from Deoxys-anything.

I'm not touching Genesect since its a whole other topic I don't have time to go into, but its what they decided so got to go with it and see how it plays out. Maybe my memory is fuzzy from when it was allowed in the tier to remember it, but I doubt some of those things can even be considered healthy. Also, in regards to your Shaymin-Sky comment, sure its become easier to check, but full on counter it has not. Anything can and will be checked as there are multiple options to do so, but saying its become more manageable by checking is not a good way to state that it can now be dropped.
 
Before anyone else mentions any sort of counters to ubers pokemon, I want to mention that this is monotype, not OU; most teams normally cannot use powerful counters against them. In addition, people still don't seem to see the difference between the gen's initial banlist and pokemon banned from suspect tests: the initial banlist had general consensus to be obviously too powerful for the meta. On the other hand, suspect tested pokemon were not obviously too powerful, due to factors that limited their ability. If there were no general consensus required for the initial banlist, pokemon like deoxys or genesect would not be unbanned at the beginning of each generation. If a pokemon is generally agreed upon to be difficult to counter in OU, then in monotype, where fewer options are available, the problem would be exacerbated (seriously, how many types have good ice shard users). While I'm all for the possibility of unbanning things, I feel that the initial banlist + quick bans would serve as a good line between what we can or cannot unban. After all new bans and (suspect test) unbans are taken care of, it might be better to move on to the initial banlist if people really still want to.

On another note, if that ever does end up happening, maybe a separate ladder could be created (possibly temporarily replacing the normal ladder, like what happened with ubers) to test unbans from the initial banlist.
 
I think the best way for us to move forwards, regardless of our initial ideas about what should and should exist in the metagame, is to rather create a ranking system for the different types (You could do frequency of them on the top ladder, but that can be difficult to identify at times), to identify which types are in need of help and which types may need nerfs. It looks like a quick judgment of this was done for the ban of Damp Rock and the unbanning of Genesect and such, but we should have a more definite system when we work at more difficult decisions, like potentially unbanning certain other ubers in the future.
 

Beta.

Ruff Ruff amirite?
I think the best way for us to move forwards, regardless of our initial ideas about what should and should exist in the metagame, is to rather create a ranking system for the different types (You could do frequency of them on the top ladder, but that can be difficult to identify at times), to identify which types are in need of help and which types may need nerfs. It looks like a quick judgment of this was done for the ban of Damp Rock and the unbanning of Genesect and such, but we should have a more definite system when we work at more difficult decisions, like potentially unbanning certain other ubers in the future.
I am going to be honest. Practically every other Ubers mon that is not retested in mono was either quick banned (At the start of the tier, or without a suspect) or are like arceus, and are too good for OU. There are practically no other mon from ubers that can be dropped down.
We're trying to make the meta better, not complicate it.
 

Pyritie

TAMAGO
is an Artist
If we're going to re-suspect talonflame at one point, since we can do complex bans now, I'd also like to see "Ban Gale Wings" on the table. It still gives flying teams a will-o-wisper and something useful against ice, while bug, grass, and fighting teams can still revenge it with their scarfer or thunder wave it or whatever. Talonflame's still plenty fast without Gale Wings (base 126!), but I feel that the priority brave birds are what pushed it over the edge.
 
...and while we are using stupidly powerful things; un-ban all Mega-items until we re-confirm their over-powered-ness.
Otherwise we shouldn't even bother with allowing Gensect back into the tier, just allow Aegislash for ghost, maybe Mawilite for fairy, and forget Talonflame along with the rest. Psychic sure as hell doesn't need support from Deoxys-anything.
This is,in my opinion, a good idea because if we want establish Monotype as a different tiers of OU, we need to see if things are broken in OU are it in Monotype.

• I think that Gengarite can be allowed too because M-Gengar was banned for trap some Pokemons such as Scarf Terrakion Close Combat.
So, in monotype, trap a specific type is useless.

• Shaymin-Sky can offer a chance to Grass to be more used but as there is said, Flinch-Serenate with a great Speed and Sp Att can be an issue.

• Kyurem-S ... It's a joke, he is more powerfull than Kyurem-B and the moveset are better, STAB Spe Ice, dragon, with Steel, ground moves, he should be immediatly banned.

(Sorry for my bad English, it isn't my language).
 
Tbh, I agree with Naten here, ghost types do need a decent defogger and even though Giratina a bulky monster, it can still be taken down and also, it's only way of recovery is Rest and Lefties, and since knock off is common on a lot of types, it mostly relies on Rest for recovery.
Also, I propose Shaymin-Sky to be unbanned only for grass monos since they need a buff, because they're rarely used. Yes, it can be a terrifying wallbreaking sweeper, but almost all the teams carry ice moves/AV/Scarfs that can beat it.
TL;DR Unban Giratina (Not the Origin) on ghost monos only and Shaymin-Sky on grass monos only since we're already complex banning.
 
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