Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

[Anttya]

So that means the only counter to Megasaur is Thundurus which is bad to only have 1 counter. Sure i can add more counters, but that will make me do worse on other types. Theres still chansey that i have to deal with too. Zekrom would make electric good because of that extra powerful wallbreaker, but you are right, it would be op, sadly. Gamefreak, step it up and give electric a good physical user for once, dammit.

Maybe in the Ruby / Sapphire remakes ;)

You can always try Rotom A...

252 SpA Rotom-S Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 182-216 (50 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

loljk, but seriously, the best counter to Venusaur is Sub CM Raikou All you have to do is get lucky or predict a Toxic and sub.

0 SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 64-76 (19.9 - 23.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
and
+1 252 SpA Raikou Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 154-182 (42.3 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

 

[DoW]

Mew is faster than mawile, so it can will o wisp it or set a reflect. I wasn't pointing that hydreigon is a mega-mawile counter, just stating possible things that dragon can do against mega mawile. Sure mega mawile isn't unbeatable but it's hard for some monos to beat it.

Sorry if it's nitpicking at this point, but mew doesn't counter mawile cuz mawile can set up a sub as mew comes in, then proceed to do whatever it likes. Anyhow the point's moot as psychic doesn't need a hard counter to be able to beat maw, and I don't believe mega maw is gamebreaking in mono compared to how it was in OU.

As for the deo formes they were banned because of deosharp (this is mono remember) and Aegi never actually seemed broken to me <_<

Genesect will be tested, and I'm confident we'll come to the right answer on whether it should be allowed in mono even if I'm not sure what that answer will be yet. Kyu-W and Skymin will be tested, and while I'm fairly certain Kyu-W will turn out to be broken, Skymin could be interesting (if fighting teams can counter it).

Edit: Note that neither Skymin nor fighting monos are areas of expertise for me. Someone else will have to tell me whether it's broken.

 

[Anttya]

Sorry if it's nitpicking at this point, but mew doesn't counter mawile cuz mawile can set up a sub as mew comes in, then proceed to do whatever it likes. Anyhow the point's moot as psychic doesn't need a hard counter to be able to beat maw, and I don't believe mega maw is gamebreaking in mono compared to how it was in OU.

As for the deo formes they were banned because of deosharp (this is mono remember) and Aegi never actually seemed broken to me <_<

Genesect will be tested, and I'm confident we'll come to the right answer on whether it should be allowed in mono even if I'm not sure what that answer will be yet. Kyu-W and Skymin will be tested, and while I'm fairly certain Kyu-W will turn out to be broken, Skymin could be interesting (if fighting teams can counter it).

lol there's no way to counter Shaymin-S in Fighting unless if you have a scarf. I guess Life Orb stalling could work, but you'd be in trouble if your opponent doesn't run it. Fake Out spam's legit, but Ferrothorn says hi

 

[inscribe]

Crazy Horse -
I partially agree. For pokemon like Kyurem-W and Shaymin S, it COULD make one type broken, but the other type more worth using. What I'm trying to say is, Kyurem - W would do good for Ice mono, but would just make Dragon mono broken. Shaymin Sky COULD work out for grass mono, but once again could make flying mono broken. I agree with Kyurem W and Shaymin S coming into OU mono, as long as its limited to those two types.
As for Genesect, as a steel user myself, I hate to admit it, but I think it should either not be around at all, or it should be limited to bug monotype. Steel mono would seem a bit too strong WITH it, but I don't think the same would be the case for bug mono.

I see you people are thinking about unbanning Kyurem-White and Skymin... I guess it's my turn to stop this,,,,

Kyurem-White (Ice+Dragon)

Kyurem-White is a powerful Special Attacking Ice / Dragon type, that unlike Kyurem-Black, doesn't have to run a mixed set in order to be successful, Kyurem-White can run Life Orb sets, Scarf sets, Specs sets, and so much more,,, Kyurem-White is blessed with a movepool that does its job, and its movepool is more than enough to sweep certain Monotypes in this Metagame. I agree that Ice is an underpowered type and needs improvement with Ubers from the banlist, but I feel that Kyurem-White is too much. It would improve Ice's match-ups VS Steel, Fire, and Fighting by a large margin.

VS Steel

252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 510-602 (141.2 - 166.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 442-523 (122.4 - 144.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 442-525 (114.8 - 136.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Fusion Flare vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 123-146 (31.9 - 37.9%) -- 0.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Fusion Flare vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Heatran: 141-167 (36.6 - 43.3%) -- 98.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Fusion Flare vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 463-546 (138.6 - 163.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 258-304 (69.3 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Fusion Flare vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Empoleon: 142-168 (38.1 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

tl;dr Kyurem-White shits on Steel,,,,, Scarf Excadrill is really Steel's only chance against this monster.



>tfw

VS Fighting

252 SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Ice Beam vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Hawlucha: 786-926 (262.8 - 309.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Fusion Flare vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Cobalion: 455-536 (125.3 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 367-433 (113.6 - 134%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr: 231-274 (65.8 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

tl;dr:
Fighting is gonna need to run Scarfs to outpace Kyurem-White, and when those 'mons are taken down, Kyurem-White can sweep a Fighting team.

VS Fire

252 SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-H: 588-697 (243.9 - 289.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-H: 317-374 (131.5 - 155.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Rotom-H Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kyurem-W: 183-216 (46.8 - 55.2%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 300-355 (101 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO



Fire is swept by Kyurem-White, barring Infernape... but as Fire really has no Switch-ins, he has to sack something in order to bring it in,,,,

TL;DR:

Kyurem-White is simply too powerful for this Metagame, and I just covered the type disadvantages Ice faces, but there are a lot of other Monotypes that simply get destroyed by Kyurem-White... If Kyurem-White really gets to a Suspect Test, I'm going to rip my hair out, and vote ban.

 

[Vinnesia Bossman]

Yeah Bossman i know you, but there is also another thing i have a problem with your argument with genesect is that it's coming from a psychic user, and since you pointed out the ladders i also see why you'd have a problem against it because, you don't want to drop back down again, like Genesect wasn't even that op before the ban, i never had a problem with it before, and if psychic users will struggle with genesect, get a Victini or Delphox. problem solved.

True, i use psychic, and it very well may bias my thoughts on genesect, but i think you're ignoring my main point. If a poke is banned in ou, how can it be more acceptable in mono? If a poke gets sent to ubers because ou teams can't handle it, how the hell is a monotype team, one which may already be at a (sometimes severe) disadvantage to this ubers poke better counter it? How come the "get a victini or delphox" or any other fire poke argument prevent genesect from being banned? Its because the poke destroys things in its path. Download+movepool+typing makes it so difficult to handle. If its banned in ou, it should be banned in monotype. Until someone explains how mono teams can better counter a poke for being uncounterable to ou teams, this decision remains ridiculous.

 

[DoW]

True, i use psychic, and it very well may bias my thoughts on genesect, but i think you're ignoring my main point. If a poke is banned in ou, how can it be more acceptable in mono? If a poke gets sent to ubers because ou teams can't handle it, how the hell is a monotype team, one which may already be at a (sometimes severe) disadvantage to this ubers poke better counter it? How come the "get a victini or delphox" or any other fire poke argument prevent genesect from being banned? Its because the poke destroys things in its path. Download+movepool+typing makes it so difficult to handle. If its banned in ou, it should be banned in monotype. Until someone explains how mono teams can better counter a poke for being uncounterable to ou teams, this decision remains ridiculous.

Monotype is a very different metagame to OU, and where in OU you can expect to be able to hard counter a pokemon in monotype this is never going to be the case for every single poke, and for every single monotype. Because of this soft counters and simply having to outplay your opponent to have a chance against something is more accepted in monotype. I'm not saying genesect isn't broken, but I am saying that where in OU the argument "bring in victini as you predict he'll bring in genesect" would be laughed at, in monotype it's more acceptable.

 

[Vinnesia Bossman]

Monotype is a very different metagame to OU, and where in OU you can expect to be able to hard counter a pokemon in monotype this is never going to be the case for every single poke, and for every single monotype. Because of this soft counters and simply having to outplay your opponent to have a chance against something is more accepted in monotype. I'm not saying genesect isn't broken, but I am saying that where in OU the argument "bring in victini as you predict he'll bring in genesect" would be laughed at, in monotype it's more acceptable.

Fair, but that still doesnt address the main issue here. Genesect was banned in ou. Why? To be honest, I don't know the exact reasons people gave, but I'm sure they're along the lines of, its got an awesome abilty with awesome stats and an awesome movepool. What about the monotype metagame makes any of that less true? Any Genesect user with common sense can pick apart a psychic, dark, or grass team by using scarf u-turn. The only thing can stop in on those teams is a faster scarf fire type move, and only if both pokes somehow come in at the same time. Genesect can revenge kill, or (definitely hurt) any three of those types and escape damage 95% of the time, bringing a poke (like heatran or armaldo) who eats up any fire attack you had brought in the first place, or a poke that can finish off what it already hurt (aka slowbro or another physical wall). No prediction from a psychic, dark or grass user can defeat a scarf genesect u-turn user with common sense.

 

[inscribe]

True, i use psychic, and it very well may bias my thoughts on genesect, but i think you're ignoring my main point. If a poke is banned in ou, how can it be more acceptable in mono? If a poke gets sent to ubers because ou teams can't handle it, how the hell is a monotype team, one which may already be at a (sometimes severe) disadvantage to this ubers poke better counter it? How come the "get a victini or delphox" or any other fire poke argument prevent genesect from being banned? Its because the poke destroys things in its path. Download+movepool+typing makes it so difficult to handle. If its banned in ou, it should be banned in monotype. Until someone explains how mono teams can better counter a poke for being uncounterable to ou teams, this decision remains ridiculous.

I slightly agree, but there are some pokemon that truely deserve the unban, such as Aegislash on Ghost, or Deoxys D/S on Psychic. Aegislash just helps Ghost run the extra mile, since Ghost is at a disadvantage since it doesn't have a lot of options for many common threats in the Metagame.

For Deoxys-D and S, they just weren't that amazing in Monotype, they were banned for supporting their teammates.

 

[DoW]

Fair, but that still doesnt address the main issue here. Genesect was banned in ou. Why? To be honest, I don't know the exact reasons people gave, but I'm sure they're along the lines of, its got an awesome abilty with awesome stats and an awesome movepool. What about the monotype metagame makes any of that less true? Any Genesect user with common sense can pick apart a psychic, dark, or grass team by using scarf u-turn. The only thing can stop in on those teams is a faster scarf fire type move, and only if both pokes somehow come in at the same time. Genesect can revenge kill, or (definitely hurt) any three of those types and escape damage 95% of the time, bringing a poke (like heatran or armaldo) who eats up any fire attack you had brought in the first place, or a poke that can finish off what it already hurt (aka slowbro or another physical wall). No prediction from a psychic, dark or grass user can defeat a scarf genesect u-turn user with common sense.

Hmm... bear in mind that, like with Skymin, I've used neither genesect nor the types it's best against very much. That said, enough prediction from these players would be able to beat genesect I think, though I wouldn't put money on them doing so...
But like I said, say you predict they'll bring in genesect, bring in victini. If you predict them to switch to heatran, go to your heatran counter. If you think they'll predict that, make them overpredict. Sure, it's a heck of a lot of predicting, and I don't like the fact genesect's causing it. But is banded u-turn from scizor so very much better? The answer is yes.

But ok let's say you've taken out heatran. It'll happen eventually: it's got no reliable recovery and you can lure it with latios or something then eq it. Let's say you do that. So you predict them to bring in gene, you bring in scarftini and click "V-create". They lose a poke.
252 Atk Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 278-330 (83.2 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

I'm not saying you'll have the advantage. But if you do predict, and you've got their fire immunities out the way, nothing's going to enjoy switching in on that fire move. Sure you gotta be careful of residual damage (iron barbs + two SR = possible espeed kill range) but nobody said countering genesect with psychic was easy <_<
+1 248 Atk Genesect Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 124-146 (36.3 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


Once again, I'm not arguing that we should keep genesect unbanned. I'm not certain on the matter. But we should give it a go, see how it works out. Give it a suspect test, and if heatran backing is too much perhaps just leave it unbanned for bug. And don't forget, if you want to overprepare for something just spam hidden power at it, last gen I saw HP ice on literally every bug pokemon one team had (scizor for example) just for dragons ^-^ (they still lost).

Edit at below: don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's not broken. I'm just saying it *can* be beaten and sometimes in mono, as opposed to OU, that's the best we can get. And once again, I'm not saying we shouldn't ban it again. I'm not decided. But running HP fire amoonguss where you might not have done before is certainly something that can be done.

 

[TM93]

Prediction and Hidden Power are NOT good arguments if you ask me, unless you have something major backing it (Technician, good/great/spectacular Special Attack, STAB (which is usually redundant), or the like, HP is really only good for hitting really frail things or things with 4x weaknesses. Genesect may have a 4x Fire Weakness but I don't think that's worth running HP Fire on everything that doesn't get a decent Fire attack, ESPECIALLY if some of these Pokemon could be putting their movepool to better use, just for ONE Pokemon that MIGHT pop up. 60BP really isn't all that great, the fact that it's low enough for Technician to buff it should say something.

Prediction only goes so far, while yes, a good player will outpredict a bad one most times, the fact that you're dealing with another human means that there's always going to be an aspect of randomness to this.

Also, I don't think we don't really do Suspect Tests in Monotype, I thought, so that's not really an option.

 

[inscribe]

Prediction and Hidden Power are NOT good arguments if you ask me, unless you have something major backing it (Technician, good/great/spectacular Special Attack, STAB (which is usually redundant), or the like, HP is really only good for hitting really frail things or things with 4x weaknesses. Genesect may have a 4x Fire Weakness but I don't think that's worth running HP Fire on everything that doesn't get a decent Fire attack, ESPECIALLY if some of these Pokemon could be putting their movepool to better use, just for ONE Pokemon that MIGHT pop up. 60BP really isn't all that great, the fact that it's low enough for Technician to buff it should say something.

Prediction only goes so far, while yes, a good player will outpredict a bad one most times, the fact that you're dealing with another human means that there's always going to be an aspect of randomness to this.

Also, I don't think we don't really do Suspect Tests in Monotype, I thought, so that's not really an option.

Nani Man plans on hosting manual suspect tests from now on.

 

[TM93]

Nani Man plans on hosting manual suspect tests from now on.

Got it, my bad. Sorry if I missed that somewhere.

 

[Anttya]

Genesect should be banned because it's so freaking versatile. You can run Banded sets with Extremespeed, Scarf sets with U-turn spam, Shift Gear, or if you're feeling fancy, a specs set. Hey, why not be that person who runs freaking Explosion? With Download, it pretty much means a free Band or Specs, and don't forget that this is coming from 120/120/99 attack stats. Yeah, it loses the perfect 100 base speed, but that doesn't matter when you have team mates to absorb and take hits from opposing scarves.
Also,
+1 252 SpA Genesect Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 182-216 (48.7 - 57.9%) -- 56.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
No free switch ins for Flying, rip :[

I'll write more later since I gtg ;)

 

[inscribe]

Now, I nominate Skymin to stay banned, seeing as there's conversation about unbanning it for Grass. As a Grass-User, I try to not see this in a Grass User's perspectives, and when I look at it this way, I see that Skymin is a monster... LITERALLY NOTHING in this Metagame will appreciate switching into a Seed Flare, risk getting their Special Defense dropped, and then their check is dead, and you begin to laugh as your opponent flinches your entire team to death... not a good feeling right? Now, lets see what things Skymin can manhandle for Grass,,,,

VS Fighting

This isn't even worth posting calcs, honestly... Scarf Skymin sweeps Fighting Mono, simple.

VS Ice
252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 266-314 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 213-252 (54.1 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-F: 54-65 (22.4 - 26.9%) -- 38.2% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 780-924 (228.7 - 270.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 195-231 (54.3 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 437-515 (128.1 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ice is really prepared for Skymin, but all of the checks can't continuously switch into Air Slashes after Rocks damage racks up, but if the Skymin player plays bad/doesn't keep rocks off of his side, the Ice user is in a good spot, but considering that Skymin can punch such a big hole into a team so well equipped for it... it's just outrageous.

VS Fire

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 133-157 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 103-123 (34.6 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-H: 54-65 (22.4 - 26.9%) -- 38.2% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Rotom-H Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 288-340 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (kek)

252 SpA Rotom-H Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 462-546 (135.4 - 160.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 248-294 (72 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 156-184 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Fire is well equipped VS Skymin, but Scarf Skymin racks up so much damage with the combination of Stealth Rock+Air Slash spam, that it's going to be really hard to deal with it, since Torkoal can get Earth Powered or Air Slashed to death after Stealth Rock. Fire's match-up VS Skymin isn't really good, but it CAN be played around, but only if the Skymin player is really dumb.

VS Flying
Honestly, Flying is so good, it's so well equipped VS every uber this banlist has to throw at it. Calcs aren't even worth posting as Zapdos/Articuno can wall Skymin, unless they switch in to a Seed Flare, get -SpDef'ed and then get bonked by an HP Rock variant... kek.

VS Poison

If the Poison user is lucky, his Nidoking or Venusaur won't get flinched, but if it flinches, the birth of HP Ice Weezing will happen.

 

[inscribe]

ANNOUNCEMENT:
#Nani Man: kyurem-w and skymin are unbanned
Kyurem-White and Shaymin-Sky is officially unbanned, for testing to see how they fair in the Monotype Metagame. Have fun laddering!

 

[TM93]

Whelp, guess it's time to make a Grass and a Ice Mono team. Figure those will be more fun than Dragon and Flying.

 

[Anttya]

Now, I nominate Skymin to stay banned, seeing as there's conversation about unbanning it for Grass. As a Grass-User, I try to not see this in a Grass User's perspectives, and when I look at it this way, I see that Skymin is a monster... LITERALLY NOTHING in this Metagame will appreciate switching into a Seed Flare, risk getting their Special Defense dropped, and then their check is dead, and you begin to laugh as your opponent flinches your entire team to death... not a good feeling right? Now, lets see what things Skymin can manhandle for Grass,,,,

VS Fighting

This isn't even worth posting calcs, honestly... Scarf Skymin sweeps Fighting Mono, simple.

VS Ice
252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Abomasnow: 266-314 (69.2 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg: 213-252 (54.1 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-F: 54-65 (22.4 - 26.9%) -- 38.2% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Rotom-F Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 780-924 (228.7 - 270.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mamoswine: 195-231 (54.3 - 64.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Shaymin-S: 437-515 (128.1 - 151%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Ice is really prepared for Skymin, but all of the checks can't continuously switch into Air Slashes after Rocks damage racks up, but if the Skymin player plays bad/doesn't keep rocks off of his side, the Ice user is in a good spot, but considering that Skymin can punch such a big hole into a team so well equipped for it... it's just outrageous.

VS Fire

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 133-157 (44.7 - 52.8%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 103-123 (34.6 - 41.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rotom-H: 54-65 (22.4 - 26.9%) -- 38.2% chance to 4HKO

252 SpA Rotom-H Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 288-340 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (kek)

252 SpA Rotom-H Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Shaymin-S: 462-546 (135.4 - 160.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 SpA Shaymin-S Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 248-294 (72 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Shaymin-S Air Slash vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Torkoal: 156-184 (45.3 - 53.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Fire is well equipped VS Skymin, but Scarf Skymin racks up so much damage with the combination of Stealth Rock+Air Slash spam, that it's going to be really hard to deal with it, since Torkoal can get Earth Powered or Air Slashed to death after Stealth Rock. Fire's match-up VS Skymin isn't really good, but it CAN be played around, but only if the Skymin player is really dumb.

VS Flying
Honestly, Flying is so good, it's so well equipped VS every uber this banlist has to throw at it. Calcs aren't even worth posting as Zapdos/Articuno can wall Skymin, unless they switch in to a Seed Flare, get -SpDef'ed and then get bonked by an HP Rock variant... kek.

VS Poison

If the Poison user is lucky, his Nidoking or Venusaur won't get flinched, but if it flinches, the birth of HP Ice Weezing will happen.

Lets not forget that Grass has Breloom, Venusaur, and Ferrothorn to absolutely screw it over ^^

 

[Croven]

ANNOUNCEMENT:
#Nani Man: kyurem-w and skymin are unbanned
Kyurem-White and Shaymin-Sky is officially unbanned, for testing to see how they fair in the Monotype Metagame. Have fun laddering!

WELP. Time for Tank Zard and Zapdos to become the MVP's now. Kyurem-W.......goddamnit. Although, it'll be refreshing to see less of the 'u use flying, u sak' people, since we're finally getting a challenge.

BTW, how are the suspect tests going to be hosted? Is it the regular ladder, and you need to get a certain ELO or something? This is one suspect test I want to vote on.

 

[Not Zer0]

To preface this post, this was written by AM E4 Shag, one of Aftermath's lovely Elite Four on the Frost server who uses the Steel Type and is having difficulties making an account, so he asked me to post this for him.


So, after reading all of this, and trying not to claw my eyes out at some of the suggestions made, I would like to put out a few points myself. Being a monotype player since early 5th gen I feel like I've seen a good amount of diversity.
Firstly I would like to nitpick at some of the other comments made.
For the electric vs. Mega Venusaur comments, 1. I would like to say why would you waste a slot on hp flying when you have a perfectly viable Air Cutter? Yes, obviously air cutter is not a powerful attack, but
252+ SpA Zapdos Air Cutter vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Venusaur: 180-212 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
Yes I'm also considering Zapdos is your common wall in electric, so this won't really be used.
You get a very high chance to 2HKO, and defensively already shown (it has the same base power as hp flying). If water can find a way to swim around Mega Venusaur, so should electric, you just have to try to be a little more diverse.
Calm Mind and Extrasensory are both things on Raikou should you choose to acknowledge it or not.
You could always use Rotom-Fan B|

What makes me angry from all of the Mega Venusaur comments is if any electric user has actually tried out steel, you'd know that other types suffer a monstrous weakness similar to this one.
Steel vs Landorus is one of the most one sided matchups in the mono's metagame. A Landorus-I equipped with life orb and Earth Power and Focus Blast single handedly can tear through every steel Pokemon you can think of, more so with Aegi gone. In my time as a steel user, the only viable checks I've found are Assault Vest Empoleon, which can barely take 1 hit, Choice Scarf HP Ice Timid Magnezone, a severely weakened Mega Scizor at +2 or something brainless like a sash Lucario or balloon Metagross/Jirachi with Ice Punch. Don't waste your time throwing derpy comments out like "oh jeez u got skarm to avoid e power :)" because Skarmory can't deal damage to Landorus at all.
This being all said, I'm basically saying most types have a blinking red light of a weakness, you just have to make do with what you can and go around it, I found a pure easy counter to Talonflame with bug, which wasted an entire team slot, but sometimes it's just what you have to do.

With that out of the way the second thing I would like to bring up is a simple, smh to the concept of lowering Giratina out of the uber realm. It's uber because it's essentially the bulkiest rest talk calm minder in the game, I can't think of another, except maybe Lugia. This thing is CroCune on steroids, why would you want to unleash it to wreck havoc? I get it Naten, you're a ghost user, you want more options, and I can see many people pleading cases with good back up. I see Zer0's reasoning to want either Dialga or Reshiram, but we know that'll never be. I see the pleads with Kyurem-W. Yes this thing is a demon, if you slap a specs on it, it will murder everything in sight, excluding the Blissey family, and maybe Porygon2. BUT ice doesn't have too many powerhouse on it. Ice mono's are built around hopping from poke to poke and hiding behind Regice and Avalugg, because they lack more than a few pokemon who bring offensive prowess to the table. Yes, I've been kicked in the gut by Ice teams before, and I'm not agreeing with the unban, but I have some doubts on my tunnel visioned view for this. Same goes for Shaymin, with 100/75/75 bulk, it can be stopped, but still is a Togekiss fused with Usain Bolt. When it comes together though, almost every single person disagrees with the drop idea for Giratina. I still am also confused as to why Mawilite is banned, but Medicham can continue to run around as a mega and run through normal/steel/rock teams like a train.

The already discussed Aegi for ghost, Gene for bug, Deo-D/S are both reasonable, in my opinion. Deo-D maybe not so much, I've 6-0'd an entire team using toxic, recover, light screen and reflect (yes I felt like tool doing that). Deo-S is just a fatter Ninjask with no rocks recoil (and obviously no speed boost). Genesect being thrown back into the bug game, is far from cancerous, especially when Kyu-W, Shaymin-S and GIRATINA are being put in discussion. Bug doesn't have insane versatility like some types. If you want an ice move, unless you're willing to use something small and weak like Masquerain, you've gotta use HP Ice. The only electric moves you'll find are from Galvantula, which usually dies fast due to being a web set up poke, and so on. Genesect helps bug, and is far from broken in that mono, considering most fire types stop it in it's tracks, and like previously said, if psychic people worry, do what every other monotype team does and STEP OUTSIDE OF YOUR GENERIC COMFORT ZONE AND PUT SOMETHING ON YOUR TEAM THAT ISNT SLOWBRO, MEW, METAGROSS, MEDICHAM, MELOETTA and try something new. Bug could use the little push Genesect gives it, but steel definitely doesn't. aegi has already been spoken about numerous times.

As for my final topic I would like to speak about, it's more openings for this complex banning situation. I for one would love to see Blaziken come back from the uber pits, but speed boost prevents that, so why not keep Blazekenite in ubers obviously, and just ban the speed boost option? Regular Blaziken was UU in gen 4, why not bring it back?
I don't know the limits of the complex ban but for the people wanting Mega Gengar back, why not remove perish song as an option or if possible remove shadow tag or something.

I think I've covered everything on my mind that has risen from this forum. Hopefully Smogon lets me create an account so I don't have to have people post for me.

-SlimmShaggy

 

[Auburn]

Anttya you're forgetting about Turbublaze, so you can't throw Venusaur in that mix lol
but Ferrothorn, and Breloom can be a solution for Kyurem-White

 

[Siiilver]

As for my final topic I would like to speak about, it's more openings for this complex banning situation. I for one would love to see Blaziken come back from the uber pits, but speed boost prevents that, so why not keep Blazekenite in ubers obviously, and just ban the speed boost option? Regular Blaziken was UU in gen 4, why not bring it back?
I don't know the limits of the complex ban but for the people wanting Mega Gengar back, why not remove perish song as an option or if possible remove shadow tag or something.

First of all, Blaziken was quickbanned soon after gen 6 ou was introduced BECAUSE it was way too powerful. It doesn't need a mega stone, life orb/choice band is good enough to tear through teams imo. Really, the best poke to handle blaziken was talonflame, but now that's gone, so its out of the question. But then again, I can kinda see where you're going. The blaziken unban still seems more reasonable than the giratina unban. But still, both fire and fighting are already well off without it.

Anttya you're forgetting about Turbublaze, so you can't throw Venusaur in that mix lol
but Ferrothorn, and Breloom can be a solution for Kyurem-White

You're forgetting that Kyurem-White has fusion flare, lol.

 

[Croven]

Anttya you're forgetting about Turbublaze, so you can't throw Venusaur in that mix lol
but Ferrothorn, and Breloom can be a solution for Kyurem-White

Honestly, not even Ferro is helpful, as Fusion Flare crushes it. It can only stand against Choiced variants, and then will rely on some prediction too. Breloom however can help, but is not switching in on anything. On the other side though, not much on Ice wants to switch into Breloom, but KyuW great defenses is really what sets it apart. I can't provide a calc atm, on a phone, but Mach does 60% max roll from non-Orbed variants. All the Ice user needs to do is set up rocks to break sashes (which is easy since I don't think spinners or Defoggers are run on Grass) and then nuke everything.

Edit: Waow, got Greninja'd about the Ferro point ;~;

 

[TM93]

I guess the Fire user in me wants to see Talonflame and Blaziken get unbanned, but reason won here when I said that Blaziken just wouldn't be entirely MANAGEABLE. I mean yes, Water still has an edge over Blaziken if you run Aqua Jet, just like Flying would be able to handle Blaziken with utmost ease if Talonflame was still among us, and one could argue that it's not too hard to manage if you can nip the problem in the bud fast enough, but in the end I just don't think it'd be healthy for the game. Just as I feel Skymin, Genesect, and Kyurem-W won't be.

252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 216-254 (71.5 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If you already had Belly Drum up

+6 252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 848-1002 (280.7 - 331.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO.

252+ Atk Life Orb Adaptability Crawdaunt Aqua Jet vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 322-380 (106.6 - 125.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I can't think of many other good Aqua Jet users off the top of my head, sadly.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Blaziken: 260-308 (86 - 101.9%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

I don't think I have to go into Talonflame here, Brave Bird is ALWAYS a 1HKO on Blaziken.

So yes, Blaziken is more manageable now, but not every type, or even MOST types, has/have an answer to it, so my personal vote is to keep it banned.

Also, arguing that Gen 4 Blaziken was UU doesn't hold up here, this isn't Gen 4 anymore, the meta has changed in one way or another, you cannot compare one generation's tiers to another and expect it to entirely hold up. Yes, Blaze Blaziken is usable, but on the other hand at that rate it's redundant, as Infernape would then do it's job and do it better, which makes it kind of like handing a kid a bag of candy but then taking away the best pieces.

 

[Not Zer0]

First of all, Blaziken was quickbanned soon after gen 6 ou was introduced BECAUSE it was way too powerful. It doesn't need a mega stone, life orb/choice band is good enough to tear through teams imo. Really, the best poke to handle blaziken was talonflame, but now that's gone, so its out of the question. But then again, I can kinda see where you're going. The blaziken unban still seems more reasonable than the giratina unban. But still, both fire and fighting are already well off without it.

It was quickbanned because speed boost made it too fast to revenge kill and turned it into a demon that could OHKO everything before you could even retaliate. He referred to gen 4 OU, without speed boost, where Blaziken was merely UU. Blaziken really isn't that OP if it's Blaze, as it has about as much bulk as Lucario, but slower, and about the same attacking stats.

 

[Siiilver]

AM Zer0 - Yeah, I meant that with speed boost, it became way too powerful, my bad. But yeah, I guess it would be okay if blaze blaziken was allowed, though I don't see anyone using it.