Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

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pffft the level of idiocy
1. naten not everybody uses ground/ice so saying that mamoswine kos pokemon x or pokemon y is very redundant considering most monotypes tend to go towards water/fighting/steel.
2. Unbannng for viailities sake is complete idiocy. if grass mono is pathetic nothing we can do about it some types unless very well made are just meant to lag in the shadows.
3. KYUREM MOTHERFUCKING WHITE FOR RREAL YOU ALL SHOULD THINK BEFORE A POST MAN THAT SHIT IS LIKE RAPE ON A RAPE TEST WITHIN A RAPE HOSPITAL
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (42.5 - 50.1%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 273-322 (38.7 - 45.7%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 219-258 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

shit man its op
other than that these unbans bans and all seem really intresting as now normal has some sort of chance with mega lopunny vs steel!
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
is a Pre-Contributor
Hang on just a minute. People are talking about some pretty big unbans, and I'm not sure people understand just how OP these pokemon are.

Mega gengar: No. This thing is being suspected in Ubers. If you're even considering unbanning you're doing something wrong.

Shaymin-s: Nope. Only thing ever to get a unanimous ban vote I believe, this this shouldn't be unbanned.

Kyurem-W: Dat 170 base SpA along with Draco Meteor, Ice Beam (or even blizzard on ice teams), decent bulk, and the ability to use scarf or specs? lolnope.

Compared to these, Aegi and Genesect are pretty useless, and by no means overcentralising. We'd like all teams to be decent, sure, but if you allow Kyurem-W on ice teams suddenly they beat flying 100% of the time, whereas Genesect doesn't automatically beat any single team thus making it far less broken. It may yet be banned, sure, but let's not forget just how different these pokemon are.
 
Articuno, if we want have a Monotype tiers who is different of normal meta, we have to think differently too, M-Gengar is used as Perish Songer with Shadow Tag and, as i said to trap Scarf Normal, fighting moves.
It was this reason who was banned from OU, but we aren't in OU, we are talking about monotype, it's not the same thing.
 
Mega Gengar does a whole lot more than just trap choice fightings. If it cannot beat mega gar 1 on 1, it will die. Simple as that. It can kill counters for other things on its team wit, ridiculous ease, if it isn't too busy sweeping itself. That thing is Ubers for a reason, and a very good one at that. Please refrain from suggesting the most broken Mon in Ubers be let into an OU tier with restrictions on what counters people can bring.

On a similar note, Giratina is damn near unbreakable in OU. There just isn't enough firepower to bring it down, and the few mons than can can't be on every team. It is way too much for this tier to handle.

Taking Ubers down specifically to make types viable is not a good way to go about it. Things should come down based on whether or not they are broken/unhealthy/able to be dealt with effectively, not because someone wants their favourite type to be better.
 
To add onto this discussion, I would like to say I'm against dragging Ubers down. One reason is that I personally enjoy the limitation of using OU mons and below. The more important reason to this discussion is that what has made these mons broken are still going to be present (at least in some cases). Lets take the examples people have brought up of M-Gar, Kyurem-W, Shaymin-S and Giratina as the most blatant examples of these. M-Gar can still trap and kill anything on the opponent's team that you want it to kill, Kyurem-W in hail can decimate any bulky mon in OU or below, Shaymin-S is still going to be an insanely good flincher which is hard to switch into because of Seed Flare and the corresponding SpDef drop and Giratina is simply to bulky for most teams to handle. That said Genesect, Aegislash and Mega Mawile have also been brought up as examples of mons to pull down. While these cases are a little more dubious (and I'd be fine with test periods to see how any of them handle in the meta) I feel that Genesect might be a bit much. While it does give a much appreciated boost to bug it can still run several sets effectively, scout early on with U-turn and keep the opponent guessing on which set it is until later on in the game when continual U-turns have softened their team enough that either Genesect can clean up or Mega-Pinsir's quick attack can (the entire guessing game was part of what got it banned iirc). That said, a test period would be interesting for the three aforementioned named- specifically Genesect because I want to see if the testing period proves me wrong.
 
Mega Gengar does a whole lot more than just trap choice fightings. If it cannot beat mega gar 1 on 1, it will die. Simple as that. It can kill counters for other things on its team wit, ridiculous ease, if it isn't too busy sweeping itself. That thing is Ubers for a reason, and a very good one at that. Please refrain from suggesting the most broken Mon in Ubers be let into an OU tier with restrictions on what counters people can bring.
Just throwing it out there, when mega gengar was in ou monotype before, have you ever hear any claims that it was op? Broken? Typings unable to deal with it? No, because with monotype it's full of revenge killers, bulky mons, something that could stop it, where as mega kang, mega luke were broken in the meta, sorry to put you on the spot Zewwie lol

To add onto this discussion, I would like to say I'm against dragging Ubers down. One reason is that I personally enjoy the limitation of using OU mons and below. The more important reason to this discussion is that what has made these mons broken are still going to be present (at least in some cases). Lets take the examples people have brought up of M-Gar, Kyurem-W, Shaymin-S and Giratina as the most blatant examples of these. M-Gar can still trap and kill anything on the opponent's team that you want it to kill, Kyurem-W in hail can decimate any bulky mon in OU or below, Shaymin-S is still going to be an insanely good flincher which is hard to switch into because of Seed Flare and the corresponding SpDef drop and Giratina is simply to bulky for most teams to handle. That said Genesect, Aegislash and Mega Mawile have also been brought up as examples of mons to pull down. While these cases are a little more dubious (and I'd be fine with test periods to see how any of them handle in the meta) I feel that Genesect might be a bit much. While it does give a much appreciated boost to bug it can still run several sets effectively, scout early on with U-turn and keep the opponent guessing on which set it is until later on in the game when continual U-turns have softened their team enough that either Genesect can clean up or Mega-Pinsir's quick attack can (the entire guessing game was part of what got it banned iirc). That said, a test period would be interesting for the three aforementioned named- specifically Genesect because I want to see if the testing period proves me wrong.
Putting it out there that Aegislash is being unbanned for ghost already, along with the other 2 for their respective typings.

And another thing is that Nani I believe is going to do a test for genesect as soon as the unbannings come (correct me if I'm wrong) to see how much it changes the meta

TEG edit: use the edit function. Do not double post.
 
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Actually Mega Gar could be pretty nice for Ghost. It'd get rid of walls like Chansey and Porygon (who'd otherwise win the game itself), and since Ghost has no Wish passers its a one time thing.

Tbh, I agree with Naten here, ghost types do need a decent defogger and even though Giratina a bulky monster, it can still be taken down and also, it's only way of recovery is Rest and Lefties, and since knock off is common on a lot of types, it mostly relies on Rest for recovery.
Also, I propose Shaymin-Sky to be unbanned only for grass monos since they need a buff, because they're rarely used. Yes, it can be a terrifying wallbreaking sweeper, but almost all the teams carry ice moves/AV/Scarfs that can beat it.
TL;DR Unban Giratina (Not the Origin) on ghost monos only and Shaymin-Sky on grass monos only since we're already complex banning.
Arifeen, how would you beat this set in monotype?

Giratina @ Chesto Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Rest
- Will-o-wisp
- Dragon Tail
- Sleep Talk / Defog

or this?

Giratina @ Chesto Berry / Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SAtk
Bold Nature
- Rest
- Dragon Pulse / Shadow Ball / Some move
- Calm Mind
- Sleep Talk / Roar / Dragon Tail
Yeah, you can set up along with it, but risk being phazed out. Also, about Shaymin-S. Grass has extremely good synergy with it. Fire, and Ice moves are handled by Venusaur, and Poison, Rock and Flying are handled by Ferrothorn. And the fact that they're choiced means that they can't switch moves to deal with those 2

TEG edit: use the edit function. Do not double post.
 
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Anttya, in the first set, you can use a hard-hitting fire type or a special attacker to hurt it, in term of the second set, it's like facing a slowbro, or a clefable.
And about shaymin-S, even though grass is a great type it can still be fucked by flying and other types
 
Anttya, in the first set, you can use a hard-hitting fire type or a special attacker to hurt it, in term of the second set, it's like facing a slowbro, or a clefable.
And about shaymin-S, even though grass is a great type it can still be fucked by flying and other types
But because of it's bulk it can still set up on it. Also, a smart player will only set up on stuff like Chansey and Zapdos so by the time you get the special attacker out, it'll be at +1 or 2.

Latios is arguably one of the strongest Special Attackers
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 362-428 (71.8 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Rest on the Draco, then just Sleep Talk away.

-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 182-216 (36.1 - 42.8%) -- 94.8% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
-4 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 120-144 (23.8 - 28.5%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
-6 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Giratina: 92-110 (18.2 - 21.8%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery

If you add that up, Giratina will live with ~30% if Sleep talk chooses Rest for 2 turns straight.

(If you set up on Chansey / Zapdos, you either have full health or be at 88-94% because of Toxic. But then you'd be at +2 Sp Def.)

You know that Flying's best scarf nowadays is Thundurus-T which gets walled to death by Venusaur. Yes, you can Volt Switch away into Charizard but Venusaur will Toxic it and put it's life on a timer. Also, there are also those random noobs who use Sash Sceptile with SD and EQ / Rock Slide.
 
arifeen any half decent player would not be stupid enough to leave in mega venu, and if the opponent predicts then say hello to fucking sludgebomb man
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
I like the monotype and I think Aegislash deserves to be part of ghost-monotype teams. The Damp Rock is also a good ban, I think. I doesn't eliminate rain dance teams, but only make it worse. 5 turns is still enough to kill an opposing pokémon. Mega-Mawile stays in Monotype is fine. I don't use fairy or steel teams often and neither do I face them so I don't really care. I think Genesect deserves an unban only if it is just for the bug type. Steel type with Bisharp, Mega-Mawile, Genesect, Excadrill and Scizor as offensive and Heatran, Skarmory and Ferrothorn as defensive threats is too good imo
With the Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D unban I don't really have an opinion. I probably gonna use one of them as lead instead of something other in my team, and I don't think it's a big issue.
I didn't read many posts after the announcement but some things like Shaymin-Sky unban for Grass-mono or Giratina for Ghost-mono or Kyurem-W for Ice-mono doesn't really seem like a good idea. I can see Shaymin-Sky doing something without being OP, but even for Ghost-mono, where other pokémon aren't as good as in for example water or ground, Giratina seems just too OP, same with Kyurem-W.
Q: When will the bans will be introduced on Showdown?
 
i made an account on this website specifically to post regarding this decision. Im The Bossman, and I can safely say that I have been a respected member of the mono community for a year now. I am also no slouch, you can regularly find me near the top of the mono ladder, and I currently reside at #4 with a 1687 rank. Having justified my knowledge of the mono ladder please listen carefully to what I have to say.

Genesect being unbanned in monotype is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of happening on the mono ladder. How can anyone make the argument that Genesect is more counterable in monotype than in ou? Throw a scarf on that thing, and it u-turns to victory against psychic, dark, and grass. Against other types it just uses the plethora of viable moves it possesses to sweep. At least in ou you can posses pokes of multiple types to counter the wide array of genesect sets that can be run. Explain to a grass mono how to stop a scarfed genesect. Rocky helmet ferrothorn is great until it turns out that it also carries flamethrower. Get that op s.o.b out of this metagame.

The same logic used before for genesect also can apply to aegislash, mawilite, and the deoxys's. If its op in ou, how the hell can it be ok in monotype. It doesn't make sense.

This temporary unban, of these pokes is going to destroy the progress made by those who have worked hard to get to the top of ladder, especially those who use types that do not favor well against steel and bug. This should be stopped, befor it begins.

Thank you,
The Bossman
 
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I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here, but GIRATINA SHOULD NOT BE UNBANNED. Clearly the people who are on board with this are on that good shit. Sure, they get a defogger, but they also get one of the BULKIEST pokemon in the game. Also, that defog utility argument is pretty useless when you realize that many other types lack some sort of utility like that (For example, Dragon with not a single Knock Off user.) Your have a problem, and it's a splinter. You're bringing a woodchipper to deal with said splinter. That's like a Dragon user bringing Hackmons because they have no knock off and it's clearly unfair in matches vs Eviolite users, right? Wrong. You work around it. After all, the whole point of Monotype is finding the weaknesses in your type and WORKING AROUND THEM.
Anttyaz calcs above show it beating a Latios using Draco Meteor, arguably the STRONGEST Draco meteor user in OU.

Drifblim is not the only Pokemon that has access to Defog, though, as both of the other Ubers for Ghost Type, Arceus and Giratina, have access to Defog. Arceus has too strong of a movepool to be considered to be brought down, but Giratina has genuine potential for being brought down. Although it is a strong Pokemon, it is restricted in its own ways. It's considered one of the greatest walls in the meta, granted a strong typing in ghost/dragon, but it has limited coverage offensively (Running Dragon Pulse, Shadow Ball, Rest Talk and some other variants, but never really anything groundbreaking coverage wise) and is still walled effectively by some popular sets in the meta (especially Assault Vest sets, walled horrifically by special walls of all types) and is eventually forced to try and overpower by maxing boosts. It gets phased easily because of its reliance on Rest as recovery. This variant will be stopped mostly by physical attackers, and variants running Physical Bulk without Calm Mind, opting to burn, will be disposed of effectively by special attackers as well.

252+ Atk Bisharp Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 216-254 (42.9 - 50.4%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 252-299 (50 - 59.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Garchomp Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 306-360 (60.8 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 186-218 (36.9 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Latios Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 270-320 (53.6 - 63.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina: 288-342 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

It is relatively effective at deflecting hits with its bulk, designed towards blocking these attacks, and the concern with bringing it down would be its Calm Mind set just for its ability to wall both Physical and Special Attackers effectively. At base 100 attacks, 120 in Origin Form, it's a decent attacker, but not a threat, another reason that people run its Calm Mind set.

------

TL;DR, Bring down Giratina, despite its holding in ubers, for ghost typing to bring an option for Defog and a more reliable wall for ghost typing (The type plagued by Pokemon that either have high defensive stats or a high HP stat, never both, never balanced.)
I'm going to make a short replication of the Giratina post here.

Dragon types are almost all weak to Ice Type moves, which is arguably the most common coverage type in the metagame. Our only pokemon that can eat a remotely powerful ice move and potentially survive are Dragonite (only with multiscale,) Kyurem-Black (Hope you run Roost,) and Goodra (lacking in recovery and ass vest with 252/0 can only take about 2.) So what I'm seeing here is Dragon needs help.
I recommend we bring Dialga and Reshiram down to OU so I have more than 3 pokemon that can reliably eat an ice type move. Even if they are COVER LEGENDARIES and only have 680 BST, I believe it will balance the metagame because ice type resist.

I sound stupid as hell in that. I'm suggesting we bring tried and true Uber down because of a utility.




I see you casually ignoring the fact that it has higher bulk than the large majority of pokemon. Ever.
Altered form is meant for use as a wall so its attack stats aren't really relevant to that situation when all it ever uses is a STAB move and a ton of status moves.
And 120 attacks in Origin form on top of incredibly solid base bulk means this thing is taking hits for days, and hitting back hard. Put this on top of three immunities from both Levitate and Ghost typing (All of which are common attacking types,) and Dragon's lovely natural resists. It's Dual STAB is also arguably one of the most spammable combos in the game. The only thing Dragon doesn't hit for at least neutral damage is Steel, and guess what Ghost hits neutrally? Steel.
120 Special Attack being "not a threat" is one of the biggest underestimations I've seen. Gren has only 103 Special Attack, must not be a threat. Hydreigon, who is slightly faster, has 125 special attack, must not be a threat. LANDORUS-I HAS 115 SPECIAL ATTACK, MUST NOT BE A THREAT. While these Pokemon are threats, be it from their ability (Gren and Landorus) or great coverage and stat spread (Hydreigon,) they all have a trait that brings them down, be it a 4x weakness or frailty, whereas Giratina doesn't. Giratina possesses the Special Attack, movepool (Draco Meteor and Shadow Ball hurt,) Typing, and Stat Spread to make it a potentially game breaking factor.

Not to mention your calcs nearly prove it's simply too bulky, seeing as how Bisharp has ridiculous knock offs on everything weak to it and Mamoswine can OHKO an uninvested Dragonite through Multiscale with Icicle Crash, but both barely scrape 2HKOs on Giratina.
 
i made an account on this website specifically to post regarding this decision. Im The Bossman, and I can safely say that I have been a respected member of the mono community for a year now. I am also no slouch, you can regularly find me near the top of the mono ladder, and I currently reside at #4 with a 1687 rank. Having justified my knowledge of the mono ladder please listen carefully to what I have to say.

Genesect being unbanned in monotype is the dumbest thing I have ever heard of happening on the mono ladder. How can anyone make the argument that Genesect is more counterable in monotype than in ou? Throw a scarf on that thing, and it u-turns to victory against psychic, dark, and grass. Against other types it just uses the plethora of viable moves it possesses to sweep. At least in ou you can posses pokes of multiple types to counter the wide array of genesect sets that can be run. Explain to a grass mono how to stop a scarfed genesect. Rocky helmet ferrothorn is great until it turns out that it also carries flamethrower. Get that op s.o.b out of this metagame.

The same logic used before for genesect also can apply to aegislash, mawilite, and the deoxys's. If its op in ou, how the hell can it be ok in monotype. It doesn't make sense.

This temporary unban, of these pokes is going to destroy the progress made by those who have worked hard to get to the top of ladder, especially those who use types that do not favor well against steel and bug. This should be stopped, befor it begins.

Thank you,
The Bossman
Yeah Bossman i know you, but there is also another thing i have a problem with your argument with genesect is that it's coming from a psychic user, and since you pointed out the ladders i also see why you'd have a problem against it because, you don't want to drop back down again, like Genesect wasn't even that op before the ban, i never had a problem with it before, and if psychic users will struggle with genesect, get a Victini or Delphox. problem solved.
 
Also a user asked me to Post a possible unbanning, it's a moveset banning that was banned from Ou i Guess, Huntail With Shell Smash and Sucker Punch, their Statement that follows this unbanning of the moveset is "I just think it's kinda ridiculous a fish with 104 attack and the equivalent of a swords dance gets banned for having un-stab priority that only works if they are attacking." and to also through it in there, it only has a base speed of 52 which doesn't make it that big of a threat to deal with tbh, since it can be outsped with a simple scarfer, and with the sucker punch being unstabbed, you can easily eat up a sucker punch with the use a physically bulky mon.
 

wishes

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Also a user asked me to Post a possible unbanning, it's a moveset banning that was banned from Ou i Guess, Huntail With Shell Smash and Sucker Punch, their Statement that follows this unbanning of the moveset is "I just think it's kinda ridiculous a fish with 104 attack and the equivalent of a swords dance gets banned for having un-stab priority that only works if they are attacking." and to also through it in there, it only has a base speed of 52 which doesn't make it that big of a threat to deal with tbh, since it can be outsped with a simple scarfer, and with the sucker punch being unstabbed, you can easily eat up a sucker punch with the use a physically bulky mon.
It's not banned, the combination is illegal
 
Before anyone else mentions any sort of counters to ubers pokemon, I want to mention that this is monotype, not OU; most teams normally cannot use powerful counters against them. In addition, people still don't seem to see the difference between the gen's initial banlist and pokemon banned from suspect tests: the initial banlist had general consensus to be obviously too powerful for the meta. On the other hand, suspect tested pokemon were not obviously too powerful, due to factors that limited their ability. If there were no general consensus required for the initial banlist, pokemon like deoxys or genesect would not be unbanned at the beginning of each generation. If a pokemon is generally agreed upon to be difficult to counter in OU, then in monotype, where fewer options are available, the problem would be exacerbated (seriously, how many types have good ice shard users). While I'm all for the possibility of unbanning things, I feel that the initial banlist + quick bans would serve as a good line between what we can or cannot unban. After all new bans and (suspect test) unbans are taken care of, it might be better to move on to the initial banlist if people really still want to.

On another note, if that ever does end up happening, maybe a separate ladder could be created (possibly temporarily replacing the normal ladder, like what happened with ubers) to test unbans from the initial banlist.
There's another thing I thought of that I wanted to add to this. Keeping in mind that this is monotype, and not OU, pure offensive threats would be more difficult to counter. However, it is true that teams which have a type advantage would have an easier time checking or countering certain threats than other teams. This results in games becoming more matchup-based; while this does have the possibility of balancing types, it would remove some skill factor from games. For example, kyurem-w would become to flying and dragon teams what talonflame was to bug/grass/fighting; shaymin-s would destroy fighting teams and centralize grass v grass, etc. On the other hand, giratina is known as one of the great walls of ubers. It was banned because it could wall some of the most powerful threats in OU; monotype has even fewer options in order to overcome this kind of wall. Only types with powerful super effective STAB attacks would be able to easily overcome it without too much loss (dragon types and dark types). If we want to make games more matchup-based for the sake of balancing types, then I have no arguments. However, I do realize there wouldn't be too much harm if stuff are tested before they are unbanned.
 
See um the problem with allowing Kyurem-S, Shaymin-S into mono is the reason they are broken in OU still applies for mono. However in mono it would be even more broken sense matchups aren't nearly as diverse as OU. With that being said, this confuses me why genesect is being allowed in monotype. It's OU reasoning for being banned applies even more so in monotype. Really think you should double think that genesct thing
 
Crazy Horse -
I partially agree. For pokemon like Kyurem-W and Shaymin S, it COULD make one type broken, but the other type more worth using. What I'm trying to say is, Kyurem - W would do good for Ice mono, but would just make Dragon mono broken. Shaymin Sky COULD work out for grass mono, but once again could make flying mono broken. I agree with Kyurem W and Shaymin S coming into OU mono, as long as its limited to those two types.
As for Genesect, as a steel user myself, I hate to admit it, but I think it should either not be around at all, or it should be limited to bug monotype. Steel mono would seem a bit too strong WITH it, but I don't think the same would be the case for bug mono.
 
Honestly i think Mega Venusaur needs to be banned or something, and have maybe Shaymin-S take its place? Ik grass will be a lot worse without Megasaur, but the problem here is that Electric barely does anything to touch Megasaur. All it does is Leech Seed and Synthesis to stall the hell out of Electric. Probobly the only pokemon to counter him is Thundurus because of Psychic/SkyDrop/HpFlying, but it's all we got that is a decent counter for him.

Chansey is also another big problem that most monos have trouble with, im honestly not sure why it isnt banned. Its such a huge Sp defense tank, and the combo of Porygon2 and Chansey/Blissey can just rek most teams. Its almost similar to the Chansey/Skarm combo in ou.

And unbanning Kyurem-W and Giratina? Yeah right, if that were to happen, you might as well unban Zekrom from Electric so we can at least get a good physical user and another megasaur/chansey counter. Heck, Kyurem-W has higher BST than Zekrom, i really dont know why you guys dont want to unban zekrom but u unban kyurem-w....
And Electric desperately needs a good physical user, electivire just sucks(i should know, i tested every physical user in electric) and eelektross is decent, although he is a bit "weak" without band, and usually the item for him is Assault Vest, which really doesnt do much for him. Im using physical thundurus because he is electric's best physical user, no doubt about that. But Electric needs another one, aka Zekrom. Every other type has at least 2 good physical users, while electric doesnt.
 
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