Ladder Monotype [Read post #393 for Tiering Updates]

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Okay now that Kyurem-W and Skymin are banned, let's move on to the new things:

Greninja: This thing has a base speed of 122, making it outspeed 90% of the meta and hitting extremely hard with STAB Protean and also being a mixed attacker and destroying both walls regarding its moveset. However, it has shitty bulk and can easily be killed. The question is: Will you survive to kill it? Grass just lost Skymin so only Breloom and Ferrothorn can kill it REGARDING what it runs . (Shadow Sneak and HP Fire respectively) and the frog steamrolls the entire team afterwards. Flying has nothing for Greninja. Of course you're gonna say Articuno and SpD Gyarados, but Greninja has teammates which can easily destroy them (Tyranittar, Bisharp oh dark and Lanturn, Azumarill, and some ninja's running Rock Slide as well). What can dark beat with greninja? Fighting teams? You have a Mandibuzz and Sableye. I know Keldeo can destroy dark with Sub CM Set but it loses to Sub CM Keldeo even with Greninja. Flying? Tyranittar destroys. Bisharp destroys. Crawdaunt destroys. Weavile destroys, 'Nuff said about that. Also with supports of Tyranittar, Mandibuzz, Sableye, Umbreon Greninja makes a solid strong core that is really hard to break down. As for Greninja replacement you have choices to Zoroark, a very underrated pokemon with good coverage and can kill fightings with Esensory as well as Illusion fucks people up, Crawdaunt that can 2hko the meta with 1 SD, and Weavile, a great attacker with insane speed which is an extremely strong banded/Orbed abuser. Now let's go with Water. It has supports of Swampert/Slowbro/Alomomola, Empoleon/Tentacruel, Sap Sipper Azumarill, Lanturn it gives bulky water what it needs: A stallbreaker. It can get a safe switch and kill something and switch out to a wall easily making it extremely hard to destroy. Also, what can Greninja beat that water teams without Greninja can't? Nothing. You're just losing a really strong attacker, but water has Keldeo, Gyarados, Azumarill and so many good walls that it can switch safely into.

TL;DR Ban Greninja it's already ubers anyways, the support it gets are too hard to break down, the coverage is insane and with more physical movepool it has fewer walls ESPECIALLY in monotype.

Sableye:
No skill CM set up gg everything. On the plus side there are 3 ways in beating this thing: 1. Fire Type Physical Attacker. 2. Don't let it set up. 3. Hax to win.
In Dark, it does have support but it gets more support on Ghost. Chandelure eats up Fire moves. Aegislash eats up Fairy moves. Jellicent eats up them Specs Hydro Pump. It's really hard to kill it with Dragons, Fighting, Dark. But it gives Ghost an answer to Hazards which it lacked.

TL;DR Suspect Test for Mega Sableye

 
+2 Mega Gallade does around 80% to skarm at which point you get killed by a brave bird or whirlwinded out. Nice sweep! ^-^
Since when is anything broken for being a late-game sweeper?
OOOH ARTICUNO BEATS SABLEYE IF IT HAS HAZE. WELP MEGA SABLEYE ISN'T GOOD THEN. In reality, that's two types that get that pokemon, and running a specific pokemon on a specific type with specific moves to beat a specific pokemon doesn't sound like overcentralizing at all. naaah

Genesect2slow4me. In reality, it's a strong pokemon that destroys things that it's super effective against, like psychic and dark, and tears their hopes into little tiny shreds. You can't do anything about the momentum it creates on either because of the stupidly strong u-turn that can possibly get a free choice band, or the bug buzzes that possibly gets a free choice specs. It's terrible for the meta and doesn't help bug beat anything it struggles with.

A little insight, please?
I find myself agreeing with him Nape. You are listing incredibly specific counters, and while there may be things with similar stats around, not all types have access to those, and running one of those pokemon to counter one set seems rather ludicrous doesn't it? You shouldn't have to waste an entire team member, potentially with a niche set, to handle one specific threat, even more so if some teams don't even have access to said counter or set. That's the very definition of overcentralization.
 
this meta is absolute cancer minus the 900 setup sweepers ex:mega gal but you banned one. you also nerfed two types that didn't need a nerf. shaymin sky and kyurem white were above average mons on shitty types that got banned. banning them is like beating up kids in a wheelchair. im personally extremely disappointed in the community
ikr balto, they need all the support they can get
 
Metagross should have been gone a long damn time ago. I know I made as asston of posts forever ago about it.

Icebros, I'm sorry, but that type is really a lost cause. It was bad without Kyurem W, and it was still bad WITH Kyurem W. Flying actually has more tools to beat you than you have to beat it. Plus, with the meta being dominated by fighting and steel, ice is just plain unviable.

Grass has it better though. Yeah you lost Shaymin, but you gained Contrary Serperior, and that's a mon that can put in some work.
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
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I normally do not respond to posts like this (frankly they don't deserve the time), but this one really irked me, so here we go...

This doesn't work, as has been showed numerous times, because you don't do anything about the fact that water is doing better than electric, even if it has a type disadvantage. What are you going to do about that? Bring something better to water to try and balance it and destroy the meta? Nerf electric somehow and kill their chances of doing anything ever? The real beauty of monotype is having a disadvantage and still winning. You can't do anything to specific types based on their advantages, or else you have to specifically go through each and every single type, study their good and bad match-ups and think of a solution that helps them with their disadvantages while not ruining the rest of the meta, something you have clearly not invested the time into and have decided not to do so. You cannot make a perfect metagame. NEVER. It's impossible. I feel like the quality of gen 6.5 has been deteriorating rapidly because stupidly obvious things get ignored (i.e. mega-sableye, megagross, genesect) and the community goes into super-scrutiny mode on things that don't really need hit. (i.e. mega-gallade)

I've got mixed feelings on these points, so I'll list which point I'm addressing and how I feel about it.
1. Again, I think this whole notion is flawed. You can't just ban stuff for being good specifically against one thing because that creates a scenario where you take away vital tools from one type and cause them to flop against others for the sake of another type. What do you plan to do to nerf the fighting vs. normal match-up? Take away close combat or something? It just doesn't work.

There ALWAYS type advantages and disadvantages, and you can't take that from the game. Maybe ban scizor, keldeo, mega metagross, mega medicham, and conkeldurr because they support fighting or steel vs. ice? It sounds stupid, right? That's exactly what you are doing by banning things that don't affect but one match-up. I.e. gallade-mega. It doesn't support a healthy meta unless you put the time and effort into putting ALL match-ups under scrutiny, which hasn't been done.

2. The natural strength argument is the only one that makes sense. Anything is good with team support. Hell, I've swept with a whiscash before because I had a baton passer. So ban whiscash? No, that's idiotic.

3. I agree with this point.
It is incredibly hypocritical, and outright rude, to come in here ranting and raving in your ~5th post on Smogon and tell the tier leader that they have not considered all matchups when it comes to the bans. First, Nani shared his opinions on how Gallade fares in each type matchup earlier in the thread, which means he has been considering this for over a month now. The other two have been discussed for even longer. Since the beginning of ORAS, many players shared their thoughts on Gallade as well, which I'm certain Nani read, and took into consideration when making this decision. You're more than welcome to disagree (discussion is the point of this thread), but making these outlandish statements really isn't welcome.

Kyurem-white was a terrible thing to bring down, and I will never understand why it was brought down. Checking broken with broken isn't a working strategy, as has been proven multiple times, including with this recent showing of prowess.

I feel the same way about shaymin-sky. It's a terrible idea in general.
Once again, the rationale behind unbanning Skymin and Kyu-W was well thought out, and shared with the community. Hindsight is 20-20, and we now know these two Pokemon did not help promote a more competitive metagame.

Mega Gallade doesn't really sweep much. A good core of any sort stops it, and it can't stop a whole well-built core on its own. Like against steel, skarmory says "nope" and you just are forced to swap out or whiff and attack it for no gain. Same with flying. It doesn't one-shot hardly anything without a boost, and even with it, you lack the coverage to do more than late-game sweeping.
I'm pretty sure that is the point of a core... This is a team game, and each member complements/helps the others. Gallade can do much more than sweep. Why not SD on the switch and use Gallade to break Skarmory to help your Terrakion sweep against Flying?

Mega Sableye is one of the worst things ever to come to mono. It has godly defenses at 50/125/115 and has few real counters that are only accessible to a few types. Here's a little bit of fun:
So here's why mega sableye is good. Ok, so you know how mega evolving on a turn doesn't change the turn order? That means the turn you mega evolve, you still get prankster to will-o-wisp whatever you need to, plus you get the bulk of a god.

......

Mega sableye sweeps whole teams easily. What does a psychic, water, electric, rock, ice, steel, etc. do against mega sableye? Toxic it? Nope. Get will-o-wisp'd? Watch it set up calm minds, heal off any damage, and sweep with dark pulse/shadow ball? Yeah. Seriously. You can't stop it without having a VERY strong physical fire type, or something with mold breaker toxic, which nearly no types have. Mold breaker toxic is just a terrible strat that people are forced to do because mega sableye wins otherwise. You HAVE to crit it to even try to kill it, otherwise you lose. Plain and simple. If you don't think so, obviously you haven't faced one with any of the above types, or else it would be quickbanned already.
I agree that M-Sableye is a threat, but there are other ways to beat it aside from what you listed. It hates things setting up a sub and boosting alongside it. Almost every type has the ability to force it to mega-evolve (to remove prankster) and access to a boosting Pokemon w/ substitute. The sets may not be the most used, but that does not make them unviable.

Hopefully you think about what I said a little and try to use it to help out the metagame rather than let us continually play gen 6.5 mono, which has been arguably one of the worst generations in a long time because of lack of treatment of the parasites that are plaguing us right now, as well as cores that are next to impossible to break, like generic flying.
Thus, we arrive at the part that really irked me...if you're trolling, you win.

"Hopefully you think about what I said a little..."

You had the opportunity to share your infinite wisdom with us at any point over the past couple months and chose not to. Sorry, tough shit.

Now, on to something constructive. I'm going to start typing up my full thoughts on Greninja and Mega-Metagross.
 
Genesect2slow4me. In reality, it's a strong pokemon that destroys things that it's super effective against, like psychic and dark, and tears their hopes into little tiny shreds. You can't do anything about the momentum it creates on either because of the stupidly strong u-turn that can possibly get a free choice band, or the bug buzzes that possibly gets a free choice specs. It's terrible for the meta and doesn't help bug beat anything it struggles with.

A little insight, please?
If the purpose of genesect was to have a strong u-turn I would agree with you. However I believe using genesect as a strong u-turner / bug buzzer is a sinful waste of this glorious bug. Two things make genesect awesome:

1. It is the only scarf worth running outside of heracross and maybe volc. This thing is bugs best scarf. It can come in on big threats, scare them out with a se hit via t-bolt, ice beam, or yes even u-turn. It provides pressure vs certain types that can be troublesome for bug. The U-turn itself is very minor compared to the scarf. And even with this power, it can only scare out few types depending on what you run. If it isn't SE vs a type, it may as well be support. You can make up for this lack of power with band or specs, but it loses that wonderful speed. So it balances itself quite nicely.
2. Ice beam. The single best thing genesect ever did for bug was give us ice beam. Before that we were stuck with galvantulas Thunder and it's weak hp ice. With ice beam bug can actually put pressure on a flying team. And even dragon was a bigger problem for bug without that move. That little bit of extra coverage is so amazing that if they would just come out with a good bug/water poke then I think bug would be set. Without ice beam however, bug will have to resort back to petty parlor tricks again to get around flying. Become much more prone to dragon. And ground ( with its recent growth) will probably become a huge obstacle for bug. Flying and ground are still very hard to beat with ice beam so it's not like it makes bug op vs these types either.

At the end of the day, I don't think genesect encourages any uneven matchups. If someone wants to use banded u-turns then I equate that to a banded excadrill on ground. Yeah you are doing a ton of damage to those electric types and that's good for you. But you could have won without it and you are hurting yourself because of it.

However. Despite all this I understand how it can be a very powerful and can cause unbalance. And I wouldnt mind it being banned as long as the other strong types like flying, water and steel follow suit and also take a hit. Yes I wil miss Ice beam incredibly. But I've been using bug since gen 5. I beat flying back them without it. I'm sure I still have it in me to do so even with all the new threats. All your doing is encouraging more use of sticky web. ;)
 

Freeroamer

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The strong U-Turn is what gives Genesect it's fantastic ability to pivot in and out of battle and actually dissuades Pokemon from switching in. A very common scenario I find when playing Bug vs Ground is that Genesect will somehow come up against Hippowdon and get the Special Attack boost. Now I can't afford to lose my Hippowdon to Ice Beam, so I'm almost certainly forced to go to Gastrodon or Mamoswine in case he does Ice Beam, but then if he U-Turns(the best play imo) he can just go straight into Pinsir and get a kill. U-Turn having decent power is certainly no bad thing either. I agree that having BoltBeam coverage is fantastic for Bug, but the ability to be an excellent U-Turn abuser is what really makes this count, as it can take advantage of the huuuuuuge amount of switches it provokes to get it's equally threatening teammates in to cause damage.

Will write up my thoughts on bans and new suspects later, but I just thought this had to be made clear.
 

InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
+2 Mega Gallade does around 80% to skarm at which point you get killed by a brave bird or whirlwinded out. Nice sweep! ^-^
Since when is anything broken for being a late-game sweeper?
OOOH ARTICUNO BEATS SABLEYE IF IT HAS HAZE. WELP MEGA SABLEYE ISN'T GOOD THEN. In reality, that's two types that get that pokemon, and running a specific pokemon on a specific type with specific moves to beat a specific pokemon doesn't sound like overcentralizing at all. naaah

Genesect2slow4me. In reality, it's a strong pokemon that destroys things that it's super effective against, like psychic and dark, and tears their hopes into little tiny shreds. You can't do anything about the momentum it creates on either because of the stupidly strong u-turn that can possibly get a free choice band, or the bug buzzes that possibly gets a free choice specs. It's terrible for the meta and doesn't help bug beat anything it struggles with.

A little insight, please?
I actually said that Articuno can win without Haze, Haze just makes it easier. I put Articuno on my Ice team because I needed a good special wall, and a Heal Beller. I also needed hazard removal as I didn't have a spinner. It just so happened to also beat MegaEye. I don't have Haze, but it is helpful in many more matchups than just against Mega Sableye. Articuno is also not niche, and neither is that set.
If you do ~20% damage to Skarm beforehand (which shouldn't be too hard--a little chip damage or even just two rounds of Stealth Rock) then it's gg. Also,Brave Bird usually can't one shot you. There is no chance if no rocks, under 20% if yes rocks. CC even has a 44% chance to OHKO Skarm after Rocks, min roll is 79.3%.
Also, since when is Toxic stall Umbreon niche? Isn't that it's only set?
I'm not gonna comment on Genesect again since its been a while since I used Bug. I don't think Bug really needs it,although it will make life vs. Flying/Dragon/Ground more difficult. Other people can decide on this one.
 
Metagross should have been gone a long damn time ago. I know I made as asston of posts forever ago about it.

Icebros, I'm sorry, but that type is really a lost cause. It was bad without Kyurem W, and it was still bad WITH Kyurem W. Flying actually has more tools to beat you than you have to beat it. Plus, with the meta being dominated by fighting and steel, ice is just plain unviable.
Having a positive match-up against the most used type (flying) makes ice more than viable. Kyurem-B isn't a major downgrade compared to Kyu-W after all. In fact with Kyu-B ice has a better matchup against water, another dominant type, at the cost of having a worse one against steel.
 
If the purpose of genesect was to have a strong u-turn I would agree with you. However I believe using genesect as a strong u-turner / bug buzzer is a sinful waste of this glorious bug. Two things make genesect awesome:

1. It is the only scarf worth running outside of heracross and maybe volc. This thing is bugs best scarf. It can come in on big threats, scare them out with a se hit via t-bolt, ice beam, or yes even u-turn. It provides pressure vs certain types that can be troublesome for bug. The U-turn itself is very minor compared to the scarf. And even with this power, it can only scare out few types depending on what you run. If it isn't SE vs a type, it may as well be support. You can make up for this lack of power with band or specs, but it loses that wonderful speed. So it balances itself quite nicely.
2. Ice beam. The single best thing genesect ever did for bug was give us ice beam. Before that we were stuck with galvantulas Thunder and it's weak hp ice. With ice beam bug can actually put pressure on a flying team. And even dragon was a bigger problem for bug without that move. That little bit of extra coverage is so amazing that if they would just come out with a good bug/water poke then I think bug would be set. Without ice beam however, bug will have to resort back to petty parlor tricks again to get around flying. Become much more prone to dragon. And ground ( with its recent growth) will probably become a huge obstacle for bug. Flying and ground are still very hard to beat with ice beam so it's not like it makes bug op vs these types either.

At the end of the day, I don't think genesect encourages any uneven matchups. If someone wants to use banded u-turns then I equate that to a banded excadrill on ground. Yeah you are doing a ton of damage to those electric types and that's good for you. But you could have won without it and you are hurting yourself because of it.

However. Despite all this I understand how it can be a very powerful and can cause unbalance. And I wouldnt mind it being banned as long as the other strong types like flying, water and steel follow suit and also take a hit. Yes I wil miss Ice beam incredibly. But I've been using bug since gen 5. I beat flying back them without it. I'm sure I still have it in me to do so even with all the new threats. All your doing is encouraging more use of sticky web. ;)
Except against Dark and Psychic when you can just spam U-turn and 2HKO everything at worst. Nothng likes to switch against it and whatever you have is killed with a little prior damage, the only sweeper that Psychic has that is not killed by it is MegaMetagross and A) It can't OHKO from full health b) It can't beat it if it's got Flamethrower & c) Metagross is getting suspected while this thing is still free. Dark has it a bit better with Mandibuzz & MegaSableye but neither can OHKO from full health and both are easy to take advantage by a pokemon switching in after U-turn. It makes the matches incredibly one-sided and now that MegaGallade has been banned and MegaSableye is getting suspected it's only gonna be worst.
 
i think you are being a little dramatic when every psychic team also runs victini. And slowbro. Both can take the hit and if something too threatening to it comes in, there is always the option to switch out again. And bug can't keep the assault going forever as long as you keep your rocks up. Cresselia can take a hit too if I remember correctly
 

DoW

formally Death on Wings
Ok, let me just say that this news is great. We now have an official tiering philosophy explaining its differences from OU, and an aim we're working towards: A competitive pokemon environment where all types can be used, if not used equally well.

I also wish to point out that the Metagrossite ban could be just the nerf flying needs: getting rid of it will boost the usage of Rock, Ice and Fairy: Ice has Kyu-B, Cloyster, Mamoswine and a number of other pokemon flying dislikes; Fairy has M-Diancie (which with M-Metagross out the way could become very strong) and as has been demonstrated, this pokemon can single-handedly destroy a badly-built or used flying team; Rock, while low on usage, can not only use M-Diancie more freely but also threatens flying with things like Terrakion which lead to flying disliking the matchup despite being the stronger type.

tl;dr Even if mega metagross isn't broken, and there's a decent argument to say that it is in any case, we should consider its ban due to the positive effect its ban would have on the tier. Think Aegislash in OU, only it's helping three of the lesser-used types (including two arguably unusable at the moment), and nerfing a vastly overused type at the same time.
 
I agree with the gallade ban, but the two recent ubers bans are disgusting. First of all, you state that ice v flying is an auto win for ice with kyerum, but then state that ice should have to accept the auto lose with steel. How is that fair?
Ice is a lower used type with a horrible defensive typing, and a type where all of its s rank walls can only perform the function of lower tier mons, because they can only switch in on rocks and a super effective hit once or twice.

Following the unfair type advantage, just ban megagross completely. Also, can scizor and scizorite, and cb/mega scizor can completely decimate ice and fairy with bullet punch, and psychic with bug bite once hp fire users have been scouted.

Conversely, skymin was the only thing that grass had that could deal with s rank threats, such as yzard, heatran, volcarona, etc that otherwise have a field day with grass.

Why should lesser used types accept auto losses against higher used types and not the other way around? Even with these two threats, grass and ice can still struggle against birds and grounds
 
first things first, hi! I'm kanna_vz (or talquino) I've been reading and following this thread for ages so I think is time to write down some things...
(and everyone is writing walls of text so I would like to join)

On the bans:
1) I think that banning kyurem white and skymin is good for the meta, skymin is a hax machine that can certainly turn matches into coinflips (of which the player against skymin has less then 50% chance to win), about kyu-W I don't think it was THAT broken, of course it leveled the playfield and destroy almost everything (even with limited movepool) but when you have a poke that's amazing using LO, specs and/or scarf it's bound to be OP so RIP those to uber warriors

2) about the type ban on Megallade: I don't think is appropriate to ban him only on psy, cuz now HO fighting (is there any other form of fighting?) is going to keep one of its best players and with scarf/banded terra and bulk from coba is still a really scary type to fight (add up moxie scarfcross spam and status absorber conk) soo yeah, on psy it was broken but having a psyteam that fully supports it is hard (as in it leaves you weak to everything once gallade gets taken out), so I think you guys should revisit Megallade on fighting. (Megacham is not nearly as powerfull and can do some wall breaking but is difficult to work as it gets outspeed by every powerfull sweeper and lets be real protect #rekts it)

On the future batch of broken mons:
1) Mega-Sableye: this thing is broken (not as much as other mons but broken none the less), it has amazing bulk (don't tell me 50 hp is bad with both defenses over a 100 is hard to break) and the free prankster turn to either a) burn phisical poke or b) set up a free calm mind (don't tell me powerfull fire types kill it cuz it can recover spam all it wants and V-create (lowers speed and defenses) and flare blitz (will eventually kill you) so sableye only real counter is another mon with calm mind and magic bounce (and most of the mons that work with that are weak to both its main attacks) and/or Mega-garde or post megaevolving playrough azumarril ( redundance on typing and psy vs a bisharp team lol) So I say ban it on dark (which can go bulky and HO) and test in ghost (remember that this type has the amazing spA of chandy/gengar and aegt OP islash) cuz this type doesn't needs sableye to sweep, it needs it to weaken and to wallbreak for another partner to work (so don't say ghost lacks of support, cuz HO and or stally ghost teams can break throu cores easily)

2) Greninja: This thing is broken (in my eyes more broken than sableye) it wrecks more than half the meta game ( and don't say if it carries X it kills if it doesn't then it can be countered) it is incredibly versitle, sure LO weakens it and sure choice items lock him, it still can switch out and come back later, besides water has a ton of support and good pokes (hell, is the type with more pokes IIRC) and dark is good too (not OP but amazingly good) and it doesn't have real counters (protean says hello!) and IMO protean is an ability that goes against all of monotype is supposed to represent (which is being the same type on 6 mons) Conclusion: don't ban greninja, BAN PROTEAN and boom! problem solved

3) ChariX: I see that ppl talk a lot about baning chariXard but is not really broken and so is flying, the fact that it has superior mons (in the matter that they are versatile and with a lot of archetypes is something we need to face) but chariXard is not broken, it is a problem tho, but is just a mon that we (as players) need to prepare for, if you want to nerf flying and steel then ban skarmory (which IS the best phisical wall and an amazing hazard set-upper/cleaner) and it is a big hit on 2 really powerfull types that rely on it soo much for team building, because lets be real here if you're playing steel and/or flying you can just slap a skarm with any set and is a win/win for you

3) Mega-gross: Do I need to say something about how broken is this broken beast? lol Ban on steel ASAP and test it on psy, why test it on psy you say: Is because psychic has taken too many hits recently and is the type that is losing a lot of megas now it has Mega-garde (the most used cuz is awesome but it gets outsped by literally everything that can kill it) the latis (which noone uses cuz scarf latios is better in all ways and the boost on attacking power doesn't really matters for latias (which misses the lefties, AV, whatever defensive wallish item your using on it) alakazam (again regular flavor is better then mega cuz magic-guard) and medicham (which is like a phis version of mega-voir even more than megallade) but if it was up to me: Ban that thing and send it to hell

So last but not least: If you say "booohooo for dark losing both gren and sab is too much it will suck to use that type" (the same goes for steel and megagross skarm) remember that psy has lost a lot of pokes and still is a top tier threat so 2 broken mons is not a huge blow is more like an: "get better at teambuilding/support" which some types (cough dark-steel-flying cough) need to face (IMO slapping the same overused mons in a team is not real fun, see ArVaDa and arifeen to see how to have some different strats with the same pokes, it opens a window for creativity too

that's all folks, I feel amazing after posting the first post, now feel free to destroy any/all of my arguments/opinions I know you want to soo gogogo!
 
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Ghost definitely doesn't need a defogger this generation. As a whole, the type is solid. Also I really don't think an aegislash sableye and giratina on the same team would be very fair.
 
Glad to see that the Monotype Metagame is finally being balanced ; though I expected more significant bans than those the community abolutely don't care about (sure Kyu-W is broken and had to be banned but noone is pissed off by it in the ladder while other threats are much more common, overcentralising asf )

Mega-Gallade ban on Psychic is a good thing though, no doubt about it. But I will be happy with this first ban if the others come faster than those one (compared to slowbronite / mawilite), because they are really too much broken things in this meta and I think we're really wasting a lot of fun time right now
 

Beta.

Ruff Ruff amirite?
In the words of based DM35 in a skype call

"NO ONE WILL READ YOUR POST IF YOU ACT LIKE A DICK. SHUT THE FUCK UP AND PRESENT YOUR ARGUMENTS RATIONALLY. that is all"

I fully agree with the bans. I always hated those two mons, if the whole reason that a type is good is because it has one mon, and promoted no skill whatsoever, there is something wrong.
 

Acast

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I don't know if I'm late to the party or not, but I've been somewhat inactive lately due to a new job so I had quite a few pages of this to catch up on. Admittedly, I didn't read all of it. I don't have the time to read through all the salt in this thread right now, but I read enough that I think I understand what people's concerns and complaints are.

The main thing I'd like to say is this: If your goal is to make all types equally viable, give up now. I can't stress this enough. All 18 types will never be equally viable. There are inherent differences between each one that make this completely impossible. Grass and Ice will drop in usage and viability due to the bans of Shaymin-Sky and Kyurem-White. If you like using Grass or Ice, then laddering is about to get more difficult for you, no one can deny that. But that doesn't matter. I want to say that again because I don't think people will read it unless I bold and underline it. The fact that it is easier to ladder with one type than it is with another does not matter.

Try thinking about it from a different point of view. Laddering with Flying, Psychic, or Water is easy mode. Laddering with Ground, Normal, or Fire is normal mode. Laddering with Grass, Ice, or Rock is hard mode. Each type has its own level of difficulty and that's part of what makes Monotype so interesting. Those who get to the top of the ladder using Flying are probably less skilled than someone who gets to the top with Grass. Which brings me to an idea that I'd like to bring forward:
I'm not even sure if it would be possible to do this or if any of the admins would be willing to do this, but I think it would be awesome if you could receive more Elo points for winning a ladder battle with a less viable type. Nothing too drastic, but perhaps there could be a 10% increase to the points you receive if you win using Grass while there could be a 10% decrease to the points you receive if you win using Flying. Again, this is just a random idea that I wanted to throw out there and it more than likely will not happen, but if an admin is willing to implement it and if there is a way to definitively decide how viable each type is in numerical values, then maybe it's worth considering. In a sense, this could make all types equally viable, at least as far as the ladder is concerned.

On the topic of Galladite and Sablenite, I'm happy with the conclusions so far. The support that Psychic gave Mega Gallade was too much. And Mega Sableye is worth a suspect, but I'm still convinced that it should only be banned from Dark, not Ghost.

Now on to the potential bans/suspects.
Mega Metagross is worth a suspect simply because it does to Fairy what Talonflame did to Grass, Fighting, and Bug. It isn't as extreme as Talonflame was in that sense, but from what I understand, it's almost an auto-win in that matchup. On top of that, it has way more overall viability than Talonflame ever did. It has bulk, instant power without recoil, and a resistance to stealth rock, all of which Talonflame wishes it could have had.
Greninja might be worthy of a suspect, but I'm less concerned about it than I am about Megagross. The reason it was banned from OU was because it could take down basically any threat presented to it due to its massive move pool. It suffered from 4mss, but with the right combination of moves and item, it could remove anything in its way. In monotype its 4mss becomes a much bigger issue. If it doesn't carry the right move it could be walled or at least checked by an entire type. By the same principle, it could also sweep an entire type if it has the right move, so I think a suspect test would be appropriate, but I'm leaning towards no ban on the ninja frog.

EDIT: It's been brought to my attention that Death on Wings (aka Articuno I) came up with the same idea for altering Elo point gains quite some time ago. Great minds think alike I suppose \o/
 
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scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
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Try thinking about it from a different point of view. Laddering with Flying, Psychic, or Water is easy mode. Laddering with Ground, Normal, or Fire is normal mode. Laddering with Grass, Ice, or Rock is hard mode. Each type has its own level of difficulty and that's part of what makes Monotype so interesting. Those who get to the top of the ladder using Flying are probably less skilled than someone who gets to the top with Grass. Which brings me to an idea that I'd like to bring forward:
I'm not even sure if it would be possible to do this or if any of the admins would be willing to do this, but I think it would be awesome if you could receive more Elo points for winning a ladder battle with a less viable type. Nothing too drastic, but perhaps there could be a 10% increase to the points you receive if you win using Grass while there could be a 10% decrease to the points you receive if you win using Flying. Again, this is just a random idea that I wanted to throw out there and it more than likely will not happen, but if an admin is willing to implement it and if there is a way to definitively decide how viable each type is in numerical values, then maybe it's worth considering. In a sense, this could make all types equally viable, at least as far as the ladder is concerned.
This is precisely what DoW proposed some time ago when he made a massive post on the (former) unbans. I also think it is an excellent idea, and this is one of the reasons I prioritized the matchup table on the stats page.

Hopefully this is something we can pursue in the future. I know DoW and I are both interested in helping lead such an effort, but there needs to be some careful thought on how it should be implemented.
 
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InfernapeTropius11

get on my level
Here is my opinion on Mega Metagross:
I feel that it deserves a ban on both types.
What it does:
Mega Metagross is a tank and a sweeper. It has excellent attack, awesome bulk, and great speed. With access to STAB Meteor Mash that can raise your attack, STAB priority Bullet Punch, STAB Zen Headbutt, and EQ, Thunder Punch, Ice Punch, and even Grass Knot (special move that murders Water/Ground types, even with 0- SpA, for some reason gets Tough Claws boost .-.) with boosting moves in either Agility or Hone Claws (more rare, but still usable), it is an excellent overall Pokemon that can sweep in many matchups. It also pretty much totally obliterates Fairy, Ice, and Rock if played well and you have teammates on both types who can help it. With Meteor Mash to murder everything slower than it, and Bullet Punch to nail the faster ones, it can easily destroy much of the opposing team before getting taken out. If it gets lucky with an Atk boost from Meteor Mash, then these types are hard-pressed to find an answer to it. Mega Metagross isn't just good against these types however, often nabbing kills in other matchups either through the sheer force (heh get it?) of its STABs or its coverage that still hits hard.
Support:
Mega Metagross also receives amazing support on both types:
Steel:
Healing Wish Jirachi. This allows Mega Metagross to come in early- or mid-game and play recklessly, then come back later fully healed with no status. It also receives tremendous support. Almost everything gets hazards. Flash Fire Heatran is immune to Fire. Skarmory is immune to Ground. Bisharp resists Dark/Ghost. It also receives tremendous offensive support from Heatran, Bisharp, Scizor, Magnezone (who, with Magnet Pull, can take out Steel types that would otherwise wall MegaGross such as Skarmory, Bisharp, or Ferrothorn), and Excadrill. It has nice walls to switch out to in Skarmory, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Doublade, or based penguin lawd Empoleon. These walls can also stall shit to death, allowing Mega Metagross to clean up. Kelfki also provides screen support to Mega Metagross, making it even bulkier. Overall, it receives excellent defensive and offensive support that when combined with its awesome natural bulk, high attack, and great ability, makes it a broken Pokemon.
Psychic:
Pretty much the same story, except more support. Psychic again has Jirachi for Healing Wish, or Gardevoir, or Latias, so you can once again play as recklessly as you want, and know you will just be healed again later. It has Mew or Deoxys-S/D for hazards. It has Espeon, Latias, Cresselia, Celebi, Uxie, or Meowstic-M for screens. It has Victini, Gardevoir, Gallade, Latios, Meloetta, or Alakazam for offensive pressure. Slowbro, Gardevoir, Deoxys-D, Cresselia, Meloetta, or Latias are nice walls who can stall stuff to death. Meloetta is immune to Ghost, Victini, Slowbro, Latias, and Latios resist Fire, Latios and Latias are immune to Ground, and Gardevoir is neutral to Dark. Once again, this AMAZING support combined with Mega Metagross' bulk, power, and ability cause it to be broken on Psychic.

TL; DR: BAN Mega Metagross on both Steel and Psychic. It is to Rock, Ice, and Fairy what Talonflame was to Bug, Fighting, and Grass. It has tremendous offensive and defensive support on both types, and is amazing on its own.

I also agree with Acast, scpinion, and Articuno I that a new ladder system that gives Elo based on either the type you used (or even better, the type matchup if that is possible) would be an excellent thing for the monotype metagame, as it IS different from OU, so having a different ladder system makes sense.
 
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This is precisely what DoW proposed some time ago when he made a massive post on the (former) unbans. I also think it is an excellent idea, and this is one of the reasons I prioritized the matchup table on the stats page.

Hopefully this is something we can pursue in the future. I know DoW and I are both interested in helping lead such an effort, but there needs to be some careful thought on how it should be implemented.
I would like to say the idea is decently popular. I mentioned it in the chat and it seemed to be getting yes's. In terms of ways it could be implemented, the fairest way to do it would be the most weighted win loss statistic you can grab.

For instance, lets consider grass v. steel. Lets say under normal circumstances (same GXE, ELO what have you) if the grass player won, he would get +30 and the steel user would lose -30 (idk exactly how it works on ladder, just an example). Under the weighted conditions of 1630 grass loses 66.2% of the time. It could be made so that the grass user would win an additional 30x.662 + 30 to yield 50.04, and the steel player losing the extra 33.8%, which would be -40.14. I chose the loss rate of the "weaker" type because it would give them more for winning as opposed to punishing the "better" type for losing to promote the use of the weaker types for more elo. The other option being that the steel player loses a scalar equal to that of the gain the grass player got.

I'll write my opinions about greninja and metagross after I have slept and gotten through these exams, but this caught my attention and I really wanted to comment haha.
 
Heheheh, sorry for being quite an asshole earlier :/
I'm not really sure why I was so rude, but I was. Soz.

Anyways, my opinions on Megagross.
Megagross, as much as I hate to say it because I run psychic mainly and it really helps, deserves a ban probably. Against fairy you pretty much insta-win, and that's not healthy in any sense of the word. It has stupid, stupid high attack, great speed and great defenses with a solid type combination. Tough claws boosts almost all of its viable arsenal, and it presents way too many opportunities to put giant dents in teams, as well as late-game sweep. It's unhealthy and needs to go I think.

Greninja is a little bit of a closer decision. While it is pretty scary to go against, especially if someone is running psychic or dragon or types that are weak to its main set, it definitely has some problems. It's also frail and etc, but it is basically a faster genesect, but with a few differences. I think it would probably be a better idea to ban it because it definitely promotes type match-up advantages, like dark vs. psy. It's kind of a toss-up, but I could understand banning it, and would probably lean towards that.

Again, sorry for being rude.
 
Those who get to the top of the ladder using Flying are probably less skilled than someone who gets to the top with Grass.
I don't say that I disagree with this but the simple fact that every skilled player advise to not use Ice and that most of them also play Flying / Psychic / OverUsed types makes me think twice. Generally when someone is using Ice every skilled player is gonna say he's a noob.

Which brings me to an idea that I'd like to bring forward:
I'm not even sure if it would be possible to do this or if any of the admins would be willing to do this, but I think it would be awesome if you could receive more Elo points for winning a ladder battle with a less viable type. Nothing too drastic, but perhaps there could be a 10% increase to the points you receive if you win using Grass while there could be a 10% decrease to the points you receive if you win using Flying. Again, this is just a random idea that I wanted to throw out there and it more than likely will not happen, but if an admin is willing to implement it and if there is a way to definitively decide how viable each type is in numerical values, then maybe it's worth considering. In a sense, this could make all types equally viable, at least as far as the ladder is concerned.
I really think this is a great idea, finally bad types can have some assets compare to good types other than broken mons.
 

scpinion

Life > Monotype... unfortunately :)
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
Heheheh, sorry for being quite an asshole earlier :/
I'm not really sure why I was so rude, but I was. Soz.

Anyways, my opinions on Megagross.
Megagross, as much as I hate to say it because I run psychic mainly and it really helps, deserves a ban probably. Against fairy you pretty much insta-win, and that's not healthy in any sense of the word. It has stupid, stupid high attack, great speed and great defenses with a solid type combination. Tough claws boosts almost all of its viable arsenal, and it presents way too many opportunities to put giant dents in teams, as well as late-game sweep. It's unhealthy and needs to go I think.

Greninja is a little bit of a closer decision. While it is pretty scary to go against, especially if someone is running psychic or dragon or types that are weak to its main set, it definitely has some problems. It's also frail and etc, but it is basically a faster genesect, but with a few differences. I think it would probably be a better idea to ban it because it definitely promotes type match-up advantages, like dark vs. psy. It's kind of a toss-up, but I could understand banning it, and would probably lean towards that.

Again, sorry for being rude.
One apology deserves another. My response was not warranted, and also not welcome. I'm sorry mate.

It looks like DoW's proposal (can we call it that?) has received some positive feedback, so I'll begin thinking about it in a bit more detail. ArVaDa-, I'm not inclined to just do this in an ad hoc manner like that. While I don't know off the top of my head, I'm certain there are some formulations of Elo/Glicko ratings that take into account a "player advantage". These would be the first place to start.
 
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