More Thoughts on Stealth Rock

[CardsOfTheHeart]

Testing a metagame without stealth rock to test whether or not it's broken?

?

Setrack, what the hell was the point of that post? There's no consensus that Stealth Rock shouldn't be banned. A lot of people have already said that it's a suspect. (See the poll results.) That's why I asked for proof that Stealth Rock shouldn't be looked at for a ban; there's plenty of evidence to the contrary.

We clearly can't agree one way or another on this; that's why we should test it. If everyone thought it was broken, then it would have been banned by now. If everyone thought it wasn't broken, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

BTW, that example is flawed. There is always a way to prove that someone has or doesn't have a baseball on their person. (though it wouldn't be generally socially acceptable to do at any time) Ownership is usually another story, though.

 

[lilyhollow]

That's why I asked for proof that Stealth Rock shouldn't be looked at for a ban

yeah, ok, don't give me that

Where's the proof that Stealth Rock ISN'T deserving of a ban?

The fact is, we're in a metagame with Stealth Rock in it. We know now whether or not the metagame we're currently playing in is broken (it isn't).

There are a bunch of things that irritate some people about DP/Pt that result from Stealth Rock directly, and theoretically a SRless metagame might be "better" than the one we're currently playing in. These are all things that will cause people to vote for a test or for a ban on Stealth Rock, but none of them show that Stealth Rock is actually broken, or even particularly unhealthy for the metagame on any level ("Sacrificing a pokemon just to set up Stealth Rock"? ok cool, so when did that become inherently a bad thing somehow?).

So yes, there isn't any agreement as to Stealth Rock's placement right now- but because we already disagree in the first place as to when anything should be tested. Under your reasoning, anything that bothers enough people for any reason should be turned into a suspect. This is fine because testing stuff doesn't by itself hurt anyone, but it does when we already have so much on our plates, and are currently operating under a system that arguably supports bans. If everyone was really willing to put Stealth Rock on the backburner then that'd be great, but I find that hard to believe; this entire discussion shouldn't even be taking place if we all agreed that Stealth Rock should only be tested after, say, every single untested Uber. Or, for that matter, just all of the other clauses and suspects we currently have listed- I distinctly remember initial pushes for Stealth Rock being tested before Garchomp, and that disturbs me.

 

[CardsOfTheHeart]

The fact is, we're in a metagame with Stealth Rock in it. We know now whether or not the metagame we're currently playing in is broken (it isn't).

The poll results beg to differ. In the end, though, I'm sure the test will show that you're right.

There are a bunch of things that irritate some people about DP/Pt that result from Stealth Rock directly, and theoretically a SRless metagame might be "better" than the one we're currently playing in. These are all things that will cause people to vote for a test or for a ban on Stealth Rock, but none of them show that Stealth Rock is actually broken, or even particularly unhealthy for the metagame on any level ("Sacrificing a pokemon just to set up Stealth Rock"? ok cool, so when did that become inherently a bad thing somehow?).

Using theorymon to say that Stealth Rock is broken doesn't make sense to me, either. That's why I want to test it.

So yes, there isn't any agreement as to Stealth Rock's placement right now- but because we already disagree in the first place as to when anything should be tested. Under your reasoning, anything that bothers enough people for any reason should be turned into a suspect. This is fine because testing stuff doesn't by itself hurt anyone, but it does when we already have so much on our plates, and are currently operating under a system that arguably supports bans. If everyone was really willing to put Stealth Rock on the backburner then that'd be great, but I find that hard to believe; this entire discussion shouldn't even be taking place if we all agreed that Stealth Rock should only be tested after, say, every single untested Uber. Or, for that matter, just all of the other clauses and suspects we currently have listed- I distinctly remember initial pushes for Stealth Rock being tested before Garchomp, and that disturbs me.

That brings up a good question: why DON'T we wait until everything else is settled before testing this? Am I mistaken that it isn't a top priority? Are time constraints the only reason that people would want to test it right now?

Look, it makes no difference to me whether Stealth Rock is ultimately tested or not. Quite frankly, I'm just really interested in seeing the results of such a test. If it turns out that more Pokemon become viable as a result of banning it, then maybe that will be grounds for banning it--who knows? If nothing really changes as a result, then it won't be a problem if we wait until everything else has been tested.

Could someone tell me why we have to test this now?

 

[RBG]

What do you all hvae against testing stealth rock? Does the fact the spin blocking with new appliance rotoms and suicide leads whose only purpose is to set up stealth rock not enough for you to teven THINK that there is the slightest possibility that it might be broken? I don't know how many of you have read the topic in the PR about this, but when literally every analysis assumes stealth rock damage taken into account on both sides of the field, you know that something is up. Personally, I am not going to say that it is currently broken. I will say that there is no doubt that it is a suspect that should be tested to see what not having stealth rock does for the health of the metagame. Yes, Focus Sash will probably increase. Yes, Yanmega useage might go up. Yes, it might allow Creatures like Salamence and Gyarados to get more use. So what? Is their a problem with these things? Do you think that without stealth rock, our metagame will collapse?

TLDR: This topic is asking "Do you think Stealth Rock is suspect?" NOT "Do you think stealth Rock should be banned?"

Edit: Oh, and Setrack, that is a funny image, but it doesn't apply here. For one thing, both side are, in theory, "the religious view" right now. Neither can show 100% solid proof that they are right. And even once the test has been started and finished, it is all subjective. So neither image can apply to either side. Frankly, I can't tell from the image and comment what you exactly meant, but you probably didn't make the point you thought you made.

 

[Darth Meanie]

Exactly right RB Goldbat

I think it should be tested because honestly we don't know what Platinum sans Stealth Rock looks like, but we can say with certainty it would be different. Not better or worse, but certainly different. It warrants seeing what it would be like.

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'm going to take a page out of Blame Game's book here and say that the main reason not to test SR as a priority is that a SR test means nothing.

Let's look at it this way: When you test a metagame by adding a Pokemon, you can directly see whether or not the Pokemon is broken. It's simple. After you test a metagame with Lati@s in it for a month, at the end of the month, you know what the impact it's had is, and whether or not it's broken. It's Suspect => Test => Result. That applies to all of the current Pokemon suspects.

With SR, it's different. First off, SR doesn't have "counters" to centralize around, and its impact is much less tangible, yet much more wide-spread. The end result will be that you'll have Metagame A on one hand, and Metagame B on the other. Likely neither will be broken, and it'll be yet another clusterfuck to figure out which metagame is the end decision. In the end, it turns into banning a move to go from a non-broken metagame to a non-broken metagame, which obviously entirely defeats the purpose of the Suspect Test- to either eliminate factors that break the metagame or to include heretofore excluded factors that do not break the metagame. It turns into "Would I rather ban this and not have to deal with it than play in a metagame with SR," an idea that just doesn't work in the context of the testing method itself.

Compare it to testing Heatran. We already know that Heatran doesn't break the metagame- its versatility simply makes it easy to include in teams, without overpowering them. The metagames resulting would not be broken, so it would be an arbitrary test that may result in an arbitrary ban.

 

[Nachos]

I don't really mind Stealth Rock, but if people want to see it tested, I wouldn't mind either.

Although I would prefer it to come after a few other things that need sorting out. Order of Operations thread in PR for example.

 

[Darkmalice]

People are saying that Ho-oh should be tested as a suspect. The main reason behind this is the x4 SR weakness. SR alone can determine massive tier difference between pokemon. That's how powerful SR is.

 

[Shiny Crobat]

People are saying that Ho-oh should be tested as a suspect. The main reason behind this is the x4 SR weakness. SR alone can determine massive tier difference between pokemon. That's how powerful SR is.

That's not true. That's not the only reason some people think Ho-oH should be tested.

SR, like several other moves can make differences. Scizor is used this much just because it got Bullet Punch. If Toxic Spikes would be used more, several other Pokemon would be used less.

 

[cim]

People are saying that Ho-oh should be tested as a suspect. The main reason behind this is the x4 SR weakness. SR alone can determine massive tier difference between pokemon. That's how powerful SR is.

It does a ton of damage that have a 4x weak to it, and a 680 stat Uber has a very long shot chance at OU because of it.

This statement says nothing, though. Is this the kid of power that breaks metagames? Is the metagame in a "worse" state because SR is "this powerful"? That's what I don't get here, is how people can say that having SR on everything is somehow destroying the metagame or rendering it less playable. Other than a few token Pokémon (Moltres), Stealth Rock isn't exactly holding back viable Pokémon. And even if it were, is that "broken" necessarily? Everything is held back by something.

tl;dr: I don't get what you're trying to say.

 

[1059860]

Well we can create 2 metagames: 1 is normal, and the other is SR-free.

Banning SR can put a lot more Pokemon into much frequent use, such as Vespiquen, Moltres, Articuno, Scyther, and many more...

Of course, as the first post mentioned, Salamence/Gyarados would be quite wild. I wonder if Salamence would be broken by then.

 

[IronGross]

That would be a pleasure. SR banned...nice to think of. No more Rapid Spin :D ...

 

[1059860]

That would be a pleasure. SD banned...nice to think of. No more Rapid Spin :D ...

SR, not SD. Oh god. No way they should ever ban Sword Dance.

Plus, Rapid Spin can still be used to get rid of Toxic Spikes and Spikes, also free oneself from Whirlpool/Wrap/Bind/Magma Storm/Fire Spin.

 

[obi]

More Thoughts on Trick

Okay you know I'd be one to quickly jump on this. With Deoxys in a Speedo gone there is absolutely nothing that can just throw down a speedy Taunt and put a stop to this move.

Since you've heard this all to death I'm going straight to the point.

Blocking Trick is kind of impractical seeing as how few pokémon get Sticky Hold and especially in the advent of Platinum we see a lot of Ghosts floating around Tricking at random times.

Edit: Common Arguments for a ban on Trick

1. No other move hits everything (with the exception of not hitting Sticky Hold).

2. Hardly punishable. There's often some way you can punish a pokémon for using a certain move, but in the long run you really cannot.

3. Minimizes the pokémon that can be played (Blissey, Skarmory, Celebi, Lugia being locked into one move and losing their Leftovers is huge) allowing certain pokémon ex. Gengar to run rampant.

4. Ease to set up. Brongzong having only one weakness, can be used by super fast pokémon like Azelf too.

5. Hard to get rid of. Not too many pokémon have Sticky Hold and many are weak to the common Earthquake.

Destroying the Counter Arguments

1. Taunt the Trick Pokemon:

If you do manage to Taunt a lead then they'll probably just switch back in later to set up Trick when they have a chance.

In October any Rotom had nearly a 62% chance of holding Trick and I am sure that is just going to rise seeing as it is a practical Trick user.

But "Spiritomb and Tyranitar" can stop Rotom, this is true, but what Rotom would be staying in on them? Seeing as it has several immunities it could come in later and just set up.

We all know how fast Azelf is and many sets carry a Scarf, so it will be difficult to stop.

2. Leftovers users would be Broken:

Not when Knock Off could be used and Sandstream/Snow Warning covers most everyone else.

Let's not forget about poison and Embargo, which would easily handle anything recovering its HP.

3. Blissey would be Broken:

Actually a Trick ban would open the door to more of its counters such as Cresselia and Zapdos would survive longer against it.

How many Blissey would be happy to switch in on a Spiritomb?

4. Skarmory and Tentacruel would run rampant:

If you are worried about Leftovers variants read #2. Skarmory and Tentacruel still get easily obliterated by a Fire and Electric move respectively.

Let's not forget about various Taunters that could handle these guys. I'm theroymoning here, but an Adamant Taunt Aerodactyl/Modest Taunt Azelf would be faster than most current Skarmory and Tentacruel sets, even after they add a Choice Scarf. There is also (lol) Scarf Electrode. Areodactyl would not be the most practical thing right now because of losing its item and just getting a Choice Scarf, which is useless on it.

When a door closes a new one opens up.

 

[Blln]

I see absolutely no good reason why Stealth Rock should ever be banned or tested. Banning anything will change the metagame, making some pokemon more viable and others less, so you can't just pick and choose random things to ban just because they make the metagame a certain way you want it to be. You can only ban things if they are actually fundamentally broken, in that they either breakdown the rules of the game (Wobbufet) or completely centralize the game above a certain point (other Ubers, double team, etc.) You can't just ban random moves because they might decrease centralization a little bit, because in the end the metagame you end up with still be centralized, just in a different way.

 

[Syberia]

Obi, Trick would not be nearly as bad if it worked correctly on Shoddy. As it is currently, if you Trick away a choice item and receive one in return, you are allowed to switch moves again freely. On the DS, you are forced to use Trick again. I personally use this to my advantage all the time.

An example being, if my Celebi used Trick against a CB Tyranitar, gave it Scarf, and got CB in return, on Shoddy I would be allowed to freely switch moves to Leaf Storm for the KO. In a DS battle, I'd be forced to either use Trick again until I died, or switch out and be owned by Pursuit. If Trick worked as it was supposed to, CB Tyranitar would be an excellent counter to most Trick users.

 

[Bourbon]

I think that somehow, somebody should do a whole bunch of battles on the ladder, and then add up all the Stealth Rock damage in the battle at the end, and find out how much damage it does on average. Then we can decide if it's broken or not.

 

[Flashstorm1]

People, stop saying this. It's no less speculation than saying "Moltres/Articuno/whatever will be a lot more viable with no SR around". WE DON'T KNOW until we actually test it. And no matter how opposed you are to the thought of Stealth Rock being banned, a test won't hurt you.

I'm honestly surprised at the (to some extent) heavy opposition to a Stealth Rock test (not ban, but test!!). Are people really that afraid of a potential change in their beloved Metagame?

I never said anything about not testing. In fact, it might help if we tested an SR-less metagame just to see how it works out.

 

[reachzero]

Thinking a little more about it, testing a SR-less metagame could take a really, really long time. Remember the early days of the Suspect Test Ladder, back when Garchomp was being tested? You saw lots of Heatproof Bronzong, Magnezone and other normally uncommon pokemon hoping to exploit the sudden lack of EQ. The metagame caught up and stabilized pretty quickly, of course, so the gimmick factor didn't last too long. If a SR ban is tested, you would expect the usage of certain pokemon to spike disproportionately. The most likely candidates for this are Moltres and Yanmega, in my opinion. This would be pure gimmick factor, like the mad rush to try out Skymin, and the corresponding gimmick rush to use Registeel when Platinum first came out. Banning Stealth Rock would be a massive change almost on a par with the release of Platinum. How long would we need to test before we could tell which metagame is "healthier"? Three months? Six? A year? Although I don't understand why people are so adamant about the need to ban Stealth Rock, I don't see how it would hurt to test it. I do see, however, how it might be impractical to test it, in that it could take a very, very long time to analyze the results.

 

[lilyhollow]

I think that somehow, somebody should do a whole bunch of battles on the ladder, and then add up all the Stealth Rock damage in the battle at the end, and find out how much damage it does on average. Then we can decide if it's broken or not.

that won't decide anything unless we then later decide "ok this is the cutoff point of damage where a move becomes broken. hey look, stealth rock is above it, well time for ban!" or we'd have to devise one before testing, and then stick with whatever the results are ("oh... earthquake does more damage than I thought... well... let's call the whole thing off then?")


ps I love Obi, I'm particularly glad that he used Trick as his example which has actually had a smattering of complaints =/

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Haha nice one Obi. One thing we must not forget is the fact that Fling is not on Shoddy too.

On hindsight of past tests though I think many of us would agree that X was or wasn't broken in the OU metagame at that time (some people question Garchomp's bump to the Uber tier after Platinum was released).

If we gave the suspect metagame enough time to level out I am sure some things would be a bit more obvious (ex. Skymin).

Do not forget you are all members of Smogon, this place has the best competitive pokémon battlers by far. The potential suspect list is not too long and it might be awhile until something major after Platinum comes, so I think we should be open-minded to testing something rather than just sitting there and saying "no".

 

[Darth Meanie]

Obi, Trick would not be nearly as bad if it worked correctly on Shoddy. As it is currently, if you Trick away a choice item and receive one in return, you are allowed to switch moves again freely. On the DS, you are forced to use Trick again. I personally use this to my advantage all the time.

Stink, not knowing that cost me a battle!

 

[IronGross]

SR, not SD. Oh god. No way they should ever ban Sword Dance.

Plus, Rapid Spin can still be used to get rid of Toxic Spikes and Spikes, also free oneself from Whirlpool/Wrap/Bind/Magma Storm/Fire Spin.

Lol, what a retarded keyborad mistake...I meant to write SR...
Still, having no SR would mean I could actually build a team without Rapid Spin...it wouldn't be necessary...

 

[Mr.378]

I say yes, because there is no harm in testing.

 

[Chinese Dood]

Same here, but really I think having some sort of SR clause would be the quickest and best method of handling this. Those that want to keep SR can just play without a clause, and those that don't want SR can play with a SR clause.