Why exactly do spikes and t-spikes "deserve more?" Does Fire Spin "deserve more?" Does Brine "deserve more?" How about any other shitty move out of the ~500 or so moves in the game? I don't see why spikes and t-spikes usage should be indicative of stealth rock's "brokenness"
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More Thoughts on Stealth Rock
- Thread starter MythTrainerInfinity
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Why exactly do spikes and t-spikes "deserve more?" Does Fire Spin "deserve more?" Does Brine "deserve more?" How about any other shitty move out of the ~500 or so moves in the game? I don't see why spikes and t-spikes usage should be indicative of stealth rock's "brokenness"
The difference between Fire Spin and spikes is that Spikes is (or at least used to be) a legitimately very useful move. In GS, Pokemon were OU purely based on having Spikes. These days, Pokemon with spikes/toxic spikes aren't all that, because why bother with it when an almost universally better option is available on tons and tons of viable pokemon.
What says the Spikes should be considered great? It's just personal preference. In today's metagame Spikes isn't as viable due to the rarity of free turns. That's why SR surpasses it. Spikes has the potential to do more damage to much of OU, but rarely will you get the chance to take advantage of it.
That and there are so few good Spikers. If Bronzong, for example, could Spike then you'd see way more use of it. If you think getting KOs with Stealth Rock is cheap, wait until you do nasty things to Waters with Spikes down.
That's not an argument for or against this proposal though.
That's not an argument for or against this proposal though.
So I should care about what the metagame was like in GSC? I don't really get why I would want that when everything else about the metagame changed, I mean even the mechanics are vastly different now. Why should "pokemon were OU purely based on having spikes" matter to me? In RBY, Amnesia was a hugely useful move, but then GameFreak split the special stats. Should Amnesia still be good now because of that?
Under no circumstance can we change the game mechanics. Then we aren't playing pokémon anymore.
Its either we have to deal with a metagame that has it used or we can have a claused ban on it.
If you want to get very technical, we do change game mechanics. Sleep Clause as we implement it isn't present in most of the metagames we play, but we still modify game mechanics to allow people to spam sleep moves on say a Starmie switching, hoping it had Natrual Cure.
Sleep Clause was first introduced by Pokemon Stadium, as well as other clauses. Some we made ourselves, like Evasion Clause. Technically, it is changing the mechanics, but its more a ban then modifiying the mechanics to change how things work e.g. making SR a two-turn layer. It's like us banning Garchomp from the metagme, whilst in normal pokemon mechanics, it's allowed in pokemon battle tower.
I still like Spikes, as it normally hits most of an opponent's team, and Skarmory and Forry are certainly usable. Tspikes though has issues, being made useless by Tentacruel, and not effecting some of the many overused OUs like Scizor and Heatran.
This is off topic, but it's been pointed out that the official Sleep Clause is only compatable with Stadium-style play, in that each player gets to see one another's team before battle and then picks 3 or 6 pokemon, depending on the rule set.
Having Sleep clause while allowing people to hide their teams is in fact changing the game mechanics on a technicality, however Smogon higher-ups have been pretty "so what" about the whole ordeal, since they neither want Stadium-style to be the norm, nor do they want to ditch Sleep Clause.
However, this is a discussion on SR, not Sleep.
An attack that is outclassed by another does not deserve more, it gets what it deserves. Spikes is almost totally outclassed by Stealth Rock both in the amount of damage it can cause and how easy it is to set up.
You could argue that Salamence heavily diminishes Altaria's usage, or that Heracross adversely affects Pinsir's usage. Should we care that those Pokemon are outclassed?
And Stealth Rock and Toxic Spikes cannot be compared any further than the fact that they are both entry hazards. They do distinctly different things. One damages Pokemon on the switch in, the other statuses them. It's like comparing Flamthrower and Will-O-Wisp, it doesn't work.
EDIT: "This is off topic, but it's been pointed out that the official Sleep Clause is only compatable with Stadium-style play, in that each player gets to see one another's team before battle and then picks 3 or 6 pokemon, depending on the rule set."
PBR enforces Sleep Clause like Shoddy, and how does DS battle work with regards to showing the opponent your team?
DS battles have no sleep clause; PBR forces you to see your opponent's team. They are totally different games that cannot be combined simultaneously. Each has an element that manifests in Shoddy, but it's impossible to have both otherwise, and it has always been this way.
Think about what you're saying next time.
I'm talking about the DS battle mode in PBR. It might be a way to justify all this on a technicality. I haven't used it before, so I don't know exactly how it works.
Of course, I have heard that PBR doesn't allow the Rotom forms, Giratina-Origin, or Shaymin-Sky, so it still doesn't work in that regard.
i would complain about colin not having made it possible to view pokemon on shoddy before complaining about the way we regard sleep clause
I can't argue with that, and I realize that Colin does what Colin will do.
Think not of it as complaining, however. I am merely trying to settle a common misconception. I have no right to complain.
I've already stated my opinion on the thread's topic a few times as it's changed, and so I have nothing else to contribute to this thread until such a time when circumstances change.
Think not of it as complaining, however. I am merely trying to settle a common misconception. I have no right to complain.
I've already stated my opinion on the thread's topic a few times as it's changed, and so I have nothing else to contribute to this thread until such a time when circumstances change.
But those types other than flying which are weak to stealth rock aren't underused overall because of stealth rock alone, but also because a lot of pokemon of those types are kinda crappy.
Ice types: Mamoswine gets STAB EQ, a huge attack stat, and access to Ice Shard. Weavile may be weak to SR, but its also far more frail and has a less useful immunity. The only one I can see with problems is Regice, which could be a solid special tank. Then again, RestTalk versions are what existed before, and instant recovery does help in the matter.
Bug Types: Yanmega does kinda get the shaft, but it can still see solid play as a lead with Hypnosis, Protect, and Speed Boost working together. The other bug types, like Pinsir and Vespiquen, just aren't that good. Pinsir is outclassed by Heracross with the additional resistances of the Fighting Type and STAB on Close Combat.
Fire Types: Moltres is the one that comes up constantly, but let's see what else is around. Charizard has a lot of possibilities, but it honestly isn't that strong. It still has a ton of weaknesses and lacks the defenses to switch in on most, not to mention lacking the speed to threaten the sweepers it would come in on. While I hate to say it, Arcanine lacks the movepool. And Arcanine is one of my favorite pokes, if they would freaking give it Earthquake or Superpower there would be so much potential.
So when you realistically look at Stealth Rock, it only invalidates a couple of pokemon that have legitimate shots at being OU. Your favorite poke may not be that good because of it, but that doesn't mean much. And I don't think it's worth banning a move, or even considering banning a move, because you want 4-5 pokes to be more viable.
Fire Types
Ice types: Mamoswine gets STAB EQ, a huge attack stat, and access to Ice Shard. Weavile may be weak to SR, but its also far more frail and has a less useful immunity. The only one I can see with problems is Regice, which could be a solid special tank. Then again, RestTalk versions are what existed before, and instant recovery does help in the matter.
Bug Types: Yanmega does kinda get the shaft, but it can still see solid play as a lead with Hypnosis, Protect, and Speed Boost working together. The other bug types, like Pinsir and Vespiquen, just aren't that good. Pinsir is outclassed by Heracross with the additional resistances of the Fighting Type and STAB on Close Combat.
Fire Types: Moltres is the one that comes up constantly, but let's see what else is around. Charizard has a lot of possibilities, but it honestly isn't that strong. It still has a ton of weaknesses and lacks the defenses to switch in on most, not to mention lacking the speed to threaten the sweepers it would come in on. While I hate to say it, Arcanine lacks the movepool. And Arcanine is one of my favorite pokes, if they would freaking give it Earthquake or Superpower there would be so much potential.
So when you realistically look at Stealth Rock, it only invalidates a couple of pokemon that have legitimate shots at being OU. Your favorite poke may not be that good because of it, but that doesn't mean much. And I don't think it's worth banning a move, or even considering banning a move, because you want 4-5 pokes to be more viable.
Fire Types
Stealth Rock is present in our metagame, and can hit all Pokemon. So what? We ban pokemon/moves to make the metagame 'better'. I've heard the argument for basically equal rights for ice/bug/fire/flying types. Oh boo hoo, maybe they are not OU for other reasons. Practically all of the pokemon that are UU and 2x/4x weak to SR have been UU for multiple generations or are just obviously not cut out to be in OU (Mothim, Delibird). Is anyone honestly going to use these pokemon if SR is banned? Moltres suddenly isn't amazing if he can switch in and not automatically lose 50%. The 4X weakness to rock as an attacking type will likely OHKO it, and weak to Water and Electric isn't too hot either. To debunk the argument, basically some pokemon aren't cut out for higher usage because of their limited movepool or typing. The truth is no one cares if some pokemon is not standardly used and Heatran and Scizor are. No one feels bad and suddenly starts using Water Gun, right?
I honestly haven't heard a reason to ban it yet. If your team is SR weak, then make a new one that isn't? SR also acts as a good check against Focus Sash and Mence/Gyara/Zapdos. Without Stealth Rock, Butterfree isn't seeing anymore usage, but Mence/Gyara/Zapdos definitely will.
A lot has been said already and better than I could say.
I honestly haven't heard a reason to ban it yet. If your team is SR weak, then make a new one that isn't? SR also acts as a good check against Focus Sash and Mence/Gyara/Zapdos. Without Stealth Rock, Butterfree isn't seeing anymore usage, but Mence/Gyara/Zapdos definitely will.
A lot has been said already and better than I could say.
So the fact that Moltres counters the two most common OU won't make it see more usage?
The "it's still weak to Rock moves" point is really weak, since if you see a Rock attack coming, you're not keeping in any 4x weak. That's how Gyara, Tran, Scizor, Mence and others are still OU: they aren't forced to take the attack. If you wanted to "switch out" of Stealth Rock, you'd have to switch in a Spinner, use Rapid Spin (which could be blocked) and finally swith in the 4x weak. That's 3 turns only to be able to switch a Pokémon in and having some hope of surviving
The "it's still weak to Rock moves" point is really weak, since if you see a Rock attack coming, you're not keeping in any 4x weak. That's how Gyara, Tran, Scizor, Mence and others are still OU: they aren't forced to take the attack. If you wanted to "switch out" of Stealth Rock, you'd have to switch in a Spinner, use Rapid Spin (which could be blocked) and finally swith in the 4x weak. That's 3 turns only to be able to switch a Pokémon in and having some hope of surviving
I've said it before and I'll say it again; if SR was banned Moltres would, in my opinion, become OU easily. Maybe even high OU. Sarenjii's Moltres (Sub/Roost/Toxic/Flamethrower) is fantastic in this metagame and can switch into common Pokemon like Heatran, Scizor, Infernape and Lucario with impunity and cause all sorts of problems. The Rock weakness isn't such a big deal as he can easily stall out Stone Edge with Substitute + Roost + Pressure.
Nothing else to add here and sorry for going a bit off-topic here but Moltres was such a star for me in qualifying for Skymin voting that I feel obliged to defend him here. He really is an excellent Pokemon if you can keep SR away.
I would like to posit two things that might make an attack broken. Consider them seperately, and consider the move trick while you read.
1: A move that can be used without the fear of losing a turn (punishability) is broken. For example, when I use earthquake, and my opponent predicts my move and switches to a levitator or a wall, I have just lost a turn, as they have switched in a pokemon and I have accomplished nothing or very little. If I use Tspikes, there is a chance that they can switch tenta or nido and undo my two turns of attacks by just switching. Same thing goes for 3 turns of spikes undone by 2 turns it takes to rapid spin.
Stealth Rock can be set up without the fear of losing a turn. It takes 1 turn to put up stealth rock, and 2 turns to spin it away. The best way to stop SR is to use taunt (assuming your faster) as it's a turn for turn trade, but you can't always have your taunter out at the same time as their SR poke. In the end, the only way to punish a player using stealth rock is to use stealth rock, creating an even playing field. Both players spent 1 turn and both players are affected by stealth rock. For those that say you can punish stealth rock by simply attacking, think about how much damage stealth rock does over the course of a battle. Is there a damaging attack that can do that much damage in one turn?
2: If a team cannot be viable without an attack, that attack is broken. This is what overcentralization means. If a team is unable to match the playing skill of it's user with equivalent results because it does not employ a certain move, that move is broken. Simplified, if a player who has the skill to be #1 on the ladder cannot make it to #1 because their team does not use stealth rock, then stealth rock is broken. This was the situation that Garchomp was creating. It was just more annoying with Garchomp because people only have 6 slots for pokemon, but we have 24 slots for moves.
1: A move that can be used without the fear of losing a turn (punishability) is broken. For example, when I use earthquake, and my opponent predicts my move and switches to a levitator or a wall, I have just lost a turn, as they have switched in a pokemon and I have accomplished nothing or very little. If I use Tspikes, there is a chance that they can switch tenta or nido and undo my two turns of attacks by just switching. Same thing goes for 3 turns of spikes undone by 2 turns it takes to rapid spin.
Stealth Rock can be set up without the fear of losing a turn. It takes 1 turn to put up stealth rock, and 2 turns to spin it away. The best way to stop SR is to use taunt (assuming your faster) as it's a turn for turn trade, but you can't always have your taunter out at the same time as their SR poke. In the end, the only way to punish a player using stealth rock is to use stealth rock, creating an even playing field. Both players spent 1 turn and both players are affected by stealth rock. For those that say you can punish stealth rock by simply attacking, think about how much damage stealth rock does over the course of a battle. Is there a damaging attack that can do that much damage in one turn?
2: If a team cannot be viable without an attack, that attack is broken. This is what overcentralization means. If a team is unable to match the playing skill of it's user with equivalent results because it does not employ a certain move, that move is broken. Simplified, if a player who has the skill to be #1 on the ladder cannot make it to #1 because their team does not use stealth rock, then stealth rock is broken. This was the situation that Garchomp was creating. It was just more annoying with Garchomp because people only have 6 slots for pokemon, but we have 24 slots for moves.
one thing makes an attack "broken" if it in itself has a centralizing effect deemed "too centralizing" . dt is banned since it "brings nothing to the metagame as far as "talent" in the same way dsds did.
heatran uses sr as gyara dds and sweeps the team 6-0. no moves have this "feature" minus basically the dsds lead and chomps yache set without ts down
this is more interesting but "viable" is not defined. MTI is #5, is that "not viable?" it's certainly "succesful" =\
The thing is I punish people when they use SR on the first turn. Setting up SR on the first turn really isn't a good idea until you've scouted for some threats first.
Now if people actually used that move right then I wouldn't have gotten to #5. I made an alt account for the sole abuse of abusing SR and within a day I was nearly on the leaderboard, so...
People shouldn't set up Rocks in the face of something that could rapidly kill it or do something like DD.
Now if people actually used that move right then I wouldn't have gotten to #5. I made an alt account for the sole abuse of abusing SR and within a day I was nearly on the leaderboard, so...
People shouldn't set up Rocks in the face of something that could rapidly kill it or do something like DD.
being "nearly on the leaderboard within a day" isn't exactly
all that hard lol.
regardless, stealth rock ban will (applied to the #1 poke)
+literally hundreds and thousands of other stuff like this applied to every pokemon in the game. i can't really see how we are going to "argue this one out" without data, but there are no "prevailing arguments" on either side, there's just too many to sort out which ones are important r__r
all that hard lol.
regardless, stealth rock ban will (applied to the #1 poke)
Code:
->allow flying types to be more viable->allow moltres to counter scizor-> moltres increase->scizor decrease
->allow ice types to be more viable->abomasnow increase->ttar increase->scizor increase
->scizor increase
->tons of other arrows affecting scizor somehow
Stealth rocks, Toxic Spikes and Spikes basically make the game more challenging, it makes pokemon dented by the most ever common switch ins and stealth rocks only take ONE turn to set up, 2ko's ho-oh and moltres, makes focus sashes virtually useless and makes your 3hko's to 2 hko's, Its an option if you dont know what do to during a game, or you dont know what your opponent will do.
Tons of pokemon would get affected by these if stealth would be removed, and those BL pokes might get OU if stealth rocks DO get removed.
Tons of pokemon would get affected by these if stealth would be removed, and those BL pokes might get OU if stealth rocks DO get removed.
this isn't a strong argument for a test
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