QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Mmm, that's a good point. I was going to say "wouldn't it be cool if they gave each starter trio their own signature moves?" but then I remembered later games have been doing that anyway.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon
- Thread starter stage7_4
- Start date
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
So recently I came across a strange thread that has left me quite confused. I'm not gonna link it, but I'll just ctrl + c the highlights.
Basically, some guy was talking about how they actually really like the Ultra Recon Squad despite their unpopularity, right? Sounds normal, and then this exchange happens
[Replier]
Still upset that they got cut from Crown Tundra
[Original Poster]
Oh GOD, WHYYYY?! The worst part is you can totally tell which parts in the Crown Tundra they were supposed to be included in the final product.
The random Cosmog in Freezington? The Poipole some scientist lady just gives to you? The fact that the fourth mission "They came from the Ultra Beyond!" is completed when you catch Necrozma in Dynamax Adventure and the Squad were supposed to be Dynamax Adventure partners like Peonia and Klara/Avery before they got cut?
Very painful.
There are more replies, but nothing that really adds anything.
So like... Did I miss some sort of leak or datamine? Replier seems to be completely certain the URS were intended for CT, and then OP goes on to present circumstantial evidence "backing up" the replier's claim, including another seemingly evidenceless claim that the Squad were intended to be Dynamax Adventure partners.
Is there anything solid substantiating this exchange that I just didn't get the memo on? Or is this all bogus?
Basically, some guy was talking about how they actually really like the Ultra Recon Squad despite their unpopularity, right? Sounds normal, and then this exchange happens
[Replier]
Still upset that they got cut from Crown Tundra
[Original Poster]
Oh GOD, WHYYYY?! The worst part is you can totally tell which parts in the Crown Tundra they were supposed to be included in the final product.
The random Cosmog in Freezington? The Poipole some scientist lady just gives to you? The fact that the fourth mission "They came from the Ultra Beyond!" is completed when you catch Necrozma in Dynamax Adventure and the Squad were supposed to be Dynamax Adventure partners like Peonia and Klara/Avery before they got cut?
Very painful.
There are more replies, but nothing that really adds anything.
So like... Did I miss some sort of leak or datamine? Replier seems to be completely certain the URS were intended for CT, and then OP goes on to present circumstantial evidence "backing up" the replier's claim, including another seemingly evidenceless claim that the Squad were intended to be Dynamax Adventure partners.
Is there anything solid substantiating this exchange that I just didn't get the memo on? Or is this all bogus?
Nothing I heard, I think they mixed their fanon with their canon. Would it have been cool, sure, but just because there are Ultra Wormholes & Ultra Beasts doesn't mean the Ultra Recon Squad also have to be included. Heck, with the way I remember the events, unless they started off with Ultra Beasts appearing in Dynamax Adventure it would only make sense for them to appear AFTER the Ultra Wormhole appeared. Unless there was an scrapped idea the Ultra Recon Squad's presence either caused it to appear or that they suspected one to appear here so came beforehand (though that would kind of ruin the surprise of the Ultra Wormhole appearing). Overall there's really no place for them in the story that would make much sense or not ruin the surprise.
Having followed assorted dataminers since people started digging around before they were even released, there's really nothing at all to indicate the URS was meant to be in Crown Tundra. Nothing in the text dump, trainer tables, event scripting
Contrast with: leftovers pointing to a scrapped obtainable victini
Contrast with: leftovers pointing to a scrapped obtainable victini
Yung Dramps
awesome gaming
The thing that's really throwing me off here is the sheer certainty of both parties. The replier didn't say something like "I suspect they were intended for Crown Tundra" or "I heard a rumor they were gonna be in Crown Tundra", they just say it like its fact. That on its own isn't unusual, misinfo is synonymous with the internet, but what is is how OP not only doesn't dispute this at all but seems to behave as if they too were simultaneously aware of this "fact" from a similar source.
With you guys' statements tho, there's a 95% chance I'm just reading into this too deeply and this is just your common and garden case of misinfo spreading.
What is going on with trade evos?
My personal theories are:
1. Some kind of mutation happens while being traded, which would technically make all trade evolutions artificial.
2. Some kind of material in the trade machine acts an evolution stone and evolves the Pokémon.
The relationship between shelmet and karrablast implies that Pokémon have some level of awareness and even control while being traded. And then you have the evolutions that need to hold an item... Why do we even need a complicated machine in the first place? None of this makes any sense.
My personal theories are:
1. Some kind of mutation happens while being traded, which would technically make all trade evolutions artificial.
2. Some kind of material in the trade machine acts an evolution stone and evolves the Pokémon.
The relationship between shelmet and karrablast implies that Pokémon have some level of awareness and even control while being traded. And then you have the evolutions that need to hold an item... Why do we even need a complicated machine in the first place? None of this makes any sense.
Hmm, now that you mention it, all the Gen I trade evos had the Pokemon go through a noticeable body change that you could argue isn't natural:
- Haunter > Gengar: Grew smaller, disconnected hands shrunk and attached to body, & grew legs. Gengar's "head" and back still sort of looks like Haunter's though Gengar's body is rotund while Haunter... doesn't really have a body; it's a head with a ghost wispy tail.
- Kadabra > Alakazam: Loses its thick tail, body becomes thinner, loses the markings all over its body, and most importantly: gains a SECOND spoon!
- Machoke > Machamp: Okay, on one hand it only grows a second pair of arms... but on the other hand it grows a second pair of arms! Actually, that's not the only change: it goes from feet with 5 toes to feet with only two & its face becomes less reptilian to a face where the muzzle is differently colored to the rest of the body looking like it has big lips or a beak.
- Graveler > Golem: Do these even look related? It goes from a singular rock monster to a monster with a body/shell made of stones cobbled together. It turns from gray to brown, hands and feet become more defined with claws, and it loses a pair of arms!
I kind of wonder if at some point in Red and Green's development, Machamp and Golem were specifically meant to be traded for each other like the Accelgor and Escavalier interaction. There's a crossover of features from Machoke and Graveler to Machamp and Golem. Graveler has four arms but loses two of them upon becoming Golem, while Machoke gains two arms instead upon becoming Machamp. Golem definitely gains a bit more "humanoid" features which would make a bit more sense if you specifically use Machoke and Graveler to trade with each other.
The Gen 4 and Gen 2 trade evos definitely make a bit of sense because they're holding an item to evolve which triggers their evolution: so them looking a bit artificial is explainable since an item+electrical stimulus triggered an unnatural transformation.
The Gen 4 and Gen 2 trade evos definitely make a bit of sense because they're holding an item to evolve which triggers their evolution: so them looking a bit artificial is explainable since an item+electrical stimulus triggered an unnatural transformation.
Oddly enough Ruby and Sapphire themselves were the first time a starter trio had their own signature moves before the Kanto starters got the elemental Hyper Beams. The Hoenn starters in Gen 3 had signature moves of their own in RS: Sceptile's was Leaf Blade, Blaziken's was Blaze Kick, and Swampert's was Muddy Water. Granted they lost the "signature" aspect of having these moves from Gen 4 onwards, but it's still notable.
A bit of an oddball that I found when looking around about the Memory Link feature in BW2, but one oddity I find is the Cheren Memory Link battle.
It seems pretty unsurprising that most of his team is the post-game team he had in BW1. But there's one difference: he uses a different elemental monkey.
In BW1, naturally, Cheren had the monkey corresponding to the one that would cover the starter he chose. If you chose Snivy in the linked BW1 file, he'd have Emboar as his starter, making Simisage his monkey. If you chose Tepig, he would have Samurott as his starter, in turn making Simisear his monkey. And if you chose Oshawott, then he'd have Serperior as his starter, and he'd have Simipour as his monkey.
But in BW2, the monkey he has is different. He still has Emboar as his starter if the BW1 file you linked has Snivy, but instead of Simisage, he has Simipour. If you chose Tepig, his BW2 battle instead has Simisage instead of Simisear. And if you chose Oshawott, instead of the expected Simipour, he instead has Simisear on his team.
There is a trend there, however, but it's odd: the monkey Cheren uses in his Memory Link Battle in BW2 is not the one he had, but the one you likely had. If you link a Snivy file, then he has a Simipour, which you as the player likely had in that file, since THAT was the monkey you were given in the Dreamyard to cover Snivy. And vice versa goes for Tepig.
Still I find it strange: why would Cheren not have the monkey he used, but instead the one you, the player (aka Hilbert or Hilda) had. It's a bit odd to me, and I wonder why they have Cheren use *your* monkey and not his.
That also raises the question: if that's not his monkey, is that supposed to be the monkey that Hilbert/Hilda originally had? And if so, why does he even have Hilbert/Hilda's monkey in the first place? It's pretty odd. Bianca does not change the monkey she uses in her Memory Link battle, which makes this an oddball and raises some questions.
On an unrelated note, this also raises the question of the absence of the Forces of Nature in BW2. Unlike the Swords of Justice, Tornadus, Thundurus, and Landorus are completely unobtainable in BW2. Perhaps this means that Hilbert/Hilda canonically captured them during their adventure in BW1? I do wonder why they don't show up at all in BW2 and have to be traded over to be used in BW2.
These are two big mysteries I find with BW2, and raises some questions about things that happened in the interim between BW1 and BW2, and whatnot. But especially the first one: Cheren in his BW2 Memory Link Battle having the monkey corresponding to what you would have in the linked BW1 playthrough, and not the one he had, is quite a mystery to me.
It seems pretty unsurprising that most of his team is the post-game team he had in BW1. But there's one difference: he uses a different elemental monkey.
In BW1, naturally, Cheren had the monkey corresponding to the one that would cover the starter he chose. If you chose Snivy in the linked BW1 file, he'd have Emboar as his starter, making Simisage his monkey. If you chose Tepig, he would have Samurott as his starter, in turn making Simisear his monkey. And if you chose Oshawott, then he'd have Serperior as his starter, and he'd have Simipour as his monkey.
But in BW2, the monkey he has is different. He still has Emboar as his starter if the BW1 file you linked has Snivy, but instead of Simisage, he has Simipour. If you chose Tepig, his BW2 battle instead has Simisage instead of Simisear. And if you chose Oshawott, instead of the expected Simipour, he instead has Simisear on his team.
There is a trend there, however, but it's odd: the monkey Cheren uses in his Memory Link Battle in BW2 is not the one he had, but the one you likely had. If you link a Snivy file, then he has a Simipour, which you as the player likely had in that file, since THAT was the monkey you were given in the Dreamyard to cover Snivy. And vice versa goes for Tepig.
Still I find it strange: why would Cheren not have the monkey he used, but instead the one you, the player (aka Hilbert or Hilda) had. It's a bit odd to me, and I wonder why they have Cheren use *your* monkey and not his.
That also raises the question: if that's not his monkey, is that supposed to be the monkey that Hilbert/Hilda originally had? And if so, why does he even have Hilbert/Hilda's monkey in the first place? It's pretty odd. Bianca does not change the monkey she uses in her Memory Link battle, which makes this an oddball and raises some questions.
On an unrelated note, this also raises the question of the absence of the Forces of Nature in BW2. Unlike the Swords of Justice, Tornadus, Thundurus, and Landorus are completely unobtainable in BW2. Perhaps this means that Hilbert/Hilda canonically captured them during their adventure in BW1? I do wonder why they don't show up at all in BW2 and have to be traded over to be used in BW2.
These are two big mysteries I find with BW2, and raises some questions about things that happened in the interim between BW1 and BW2, and whatnot. But especially the first one: Cheren in his BW2 Memory Link Battle having the monkey corresponding to what you would have in the linked BW1 playthrough, and not the one he had, is quite a mystery to me.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Not sure about the rest, but my headcanon was always that the Forces of Nature had "crossed over" to the interdream zone around the time B2W2 take place and that's why Nate/Rosa has to capture them there instead* - they're just not in Unova at the present time.
*I don't subscribe to the "only one individual exists" idea when it comes to legends, so it is entirely possible they're just another set of the same Pokemon. The Gen IV mascots can be captured there as well, after all.
Probably so there's something catchable in the original pair that wasn't in the sequels. You have to trade with BW1 if you want their Incarnate forms that have their normal abilities, and since Thundurus and Tornadus are version exclusives you need both of the original pair(Or friends that own them) if you want Prankster on them. Upper versions often lack Pokemon that are in the original games lack. Reminder that Japanese Blue, Yellow, Crystal, Emerald and Platinum before them needed both of the base versions to get everything. B2W2 was a bit different in that if you wanted to simply get them for the dex you could also buy a 3DS and buy Dream Radar, but it was pricy at that time and didn't have many notable games making the system worth the purchase.
Even USUM had Pokemon that were only obtainable in the original pair(In this case rather than being stuff in the regional dex they instead were stuff obtainable from Island Scan)
So I was browsing SmashWiki just now, when something caught my eye:
"Changing the language to Japanese on an English copy of Melee changes the Ice Climbers name to "Ice Climber", as the Japanese language does not differentiate words as plural like in English."
This wasn't my first time reading this bit of trivia, but this time, I made a new connection. Is that why every Pokemon name (and the word Pokemon itself) is the same singular or plural?
"Changing the language to Japanese on an English copy of Melee changes the Ice Climbers name to "Ice Climber", as the Japanese language does not differentiate words as plural like in English."
This wasn't my first time reading this bit of trivia, but this time, I made a new connection. Is that why every Pokemon name (and the word Pokemon itself) is the same singular or plural?
Yes. It also allows for languages that likely add plural forms with extra words to function without getting too crazy.
Even weirder is the case of Vullaby and Mandibuzz, who also give out Special Attack EVs when KOed, despite that being their lowest stat.
The EV choices may depend on gameplay functions to allow anyone to grind any type of evs anywhere (other than super early routes which i assume arent really cared for as much). Or maybe these lines used to have higher stats in spdef and spatk, but got altered sometime in the process after the ev table was finished, and Gamefreak though that changing it wasn't exactly a priority
You're likely right on the first part. iirc misc notes from the various gigaleaks have mentioned "this area should be good for these stats"
Last edited:
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
Balance reasons aside, why doesn't Dragon resist Poison? A couple of characters in the games talk about Dragon-types being mystical creatures containing abundant life energy, which seems like it'd counteract the life-draining aspects of poison. Plus a lot of Dragon Pokemon are based on reptiles or lizards, animals which often tend to be resistant to poisons or venoms in the real world.
Because being poisoned is an extremely physical experience. This is why Poison-Type was physical in the first few generations despite every Poison-Type move being some type of projectile until Gen III and the vast majority of them becoming special in Gen IV (Poison Sting, Fang, and Tail the only exceptions off the top of my head). At least earlier in the series, the special types were considered elemental / life energy based, while the physical types were a much more rudimentary "punch and hurt them because punching literally hurts" with less magic behind it. Poison eats away at living organisms no matter how much resistance to life energy they happen to have.
This is why Dragon-Type only resists types that were originally special before the split.
Last edited:
A spin-off related mystery. Early into Super Mystery Dungeon you can find a Hydreigon, who has this to say:
It's just the only piece of dialog he has outside of his Connection Orb mission, but since it's very strongly implied it's the same Hydreigon as in Gates to Infinity (both start at Level 64 and have the same moves), this continuity nod can go deeper than probably intended. Hydreigon recognizing you can feel a little shocking considering you've only recently turned into a Pokémon, but it can be understood if you played the previous game. The question is... why does he expect the player character to recognize him?
It's just the only piece of dialog he has outside of his Connection Orb mission, but since it's very strongly implied it's the same Hydreigon as in Gates to Infinity (both start at Level 64 and have the same moves), this continuity nod can go deeper than probably intended. Hydreigon recognizing you can feel a little shocking considering you've only recently turned into a Pokémon, but it can be understood if you played the previous game. The question is... why does he expect the player character to recognize him?
This implies they met each other at some point before the events of Super, but when? Especially considering that, at final part of the game, it is revealed the player is a time traveler from the past.
Does this mean he met the player character in the past, when they were still human? He recognized the GTI human despite not witnessing which Pokémon they turned into, so that might be possible. Being the Voice of Life, it wouldn't be surprising if he has access to information others would be otherwise incapable of knowing.
Or is the player one of the many humans Hydreigon called for aid against the Bittercold? If so, this would mean he had been trying to get the aid of humans for a very long time, considering the time-travel. At some point after failing (or succeeding, depending on the Pokémon form) to beat the Bittercold, the human must have been brought into the fray again, now against Dark Matter. And then the time skip.
Does this mean he met the player character in the past, when they were still human? He recognized the GTI human despite not witnessing which Pokémon they turned into, so that might be possible. Being the Voice of Life, it wouldn't be surprising if he has access to information others would be otherwise incapable of knowing.
Or is the player one of the many humans Hydreigon called for aid against the Bittercold? If so, this would mean he had been trying to get the aid of humans for a very long time, considering the time-travel. At some point after failing (or succeeding, depending on the Pokémon form) to beat the Bittercold, the human must have been brought into the fray again, now against Dark Matter. And then the time skip.
Last edited:
Plague von Karma
Banned deucer.
So me and some blokes in the RBY Discord were looking into why Skitty evolves via a Moon Stone, and outside of that crescent moon on its head, we couldn't really figure it out.
Skitty is the only Moon Stone evolution to not be available in a generation with Moon Balls available, so because of this, if you want to collect Moon Stone Pokemon in Moon Balls, you're outta luck. It's also the only Moon Stone evolver to be available in Gen 3, though this doesn't seem to be a reason in and of itself since many other gens have this method absent; this includes Gen 2, so it wasn't a tradition at the time. The Pokedex says nowt and the NPCs say jack about it. Zippo. Nada. Goose egg. Zilch. Absolutely nothing. Hell, in the Gen 3 prototypes it was a level-based evolution, so it was a late change.
There is absolutely no material implying it should evolve like this bar a crescent moon on its head and the fact it's a cat. Every other Moon Stone evolution often has some lore attached. The Kanto Moon Stone Pokemon are said to have come from space and Munna is a dream-centric Pokemon, so using something associated with the night make sense for both of them. You'd think there'd be some kind of link to the moon somewhere in its movepool at the very least, but no. It doesn't get Moonlight, Moonblast, or any real "night"-based moves. I suppose its tiny Dark movepool and access to Shadow Ball are sort of implying it, but it's not much, especially when factoring in the fact Shadow Ball has massive distribution among Normal-types.
It's weird this has never been elaborated on since Skitty is otherwise super well-established in the series: The Fluffy Tail has a Skitty design, it's an in-game trade, has swarms in DPP, Delcatty is a Cipher Admin's Shadow Pokemon, it's in PMD as a starter, and you can get a Pay Day Skitty in Pokemon Box. Hell, in the anime, Skitty is a Pokemon used by a protagonist and it's heavily associated with Contests as well.
Honestly, its probably less because skitty, and more because they only had one pokemon in the Hoenn dex who evolved by moon stone (Jigglypuff) and wanted to add another. They looked at all the pokemon that should evolve around early 20s (when you get to meteor falls) and decided skitty fit best.