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SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon
- Thread starter stage7_4
- Start date
The Japanese name is Gang Up and considering its effect, I think it's being implied the user themselves aren't attacking the target but rather summoned its party members to wallop it. Why the party members don't activate any contact prompts I don't know, maybe the allies aren't actually coming out of their Poke Balls but rather a quick energy form of them is being constructed to strike the opponent before vanishing (other moves appear as giant energy punches, kicks, and even jaws, why not in the shape of your party members?).
Even then, one of those hits comes from the user itself.
Oh, well then I guess it creates an energy double of itself to join in the gang beat down?
wonder if they just did it to simplify interactions.
The move is supposed to pretend to have your team come out and deal some damage, which is why it uses your team's level & base attack per hit. If this move made contact then it has to do one of three things:
-track contact interactions across the members who dealt damage
-treat each attack as the original user's in which case enjoy these up to 6 contact interactions
-original user deals contact, the other hits do not
So they just simplified this already pretty complex move by just not having it deal contact.
They completely overhauled the move in gen 5 (now JUST uses the user's attack stat with the base power now coming from each member's attack stat), I assume to make it a more useful move to use, but stil ldidn't take one of the above options
The move is supposed to pretend to have your team come out and deal some damage, which is why it uses your team's level & base attack per hit. If this move made contact then it has to do one of three things:
-track contact interactions across the members who dealt damage
-treat each attack as the original user's in which case enjoy these up to 6 contact interactions
-original user deals contact, the other hits do not
So they just simplified this already pretty complex move by just not having it deal contact.
They completely overhauled the move in gen 5 (now JUST uses the user's attack stat with the base power now coming from each member's attack stat), I assume to make it a more useful move to use, but stil ldidn't take one of the above options
Urshifu-Single is the Pokemon with the highest Attack that learns Beat Up (130). In SwSh, if backed up by a team of Kartana (Pokemon with the highest Attack stat at 181), then the max Power of Beat Up is 18 for Urshifu & 23.1 for Kartana, for a base Power of 133.5 BUT since Urshifu-Single is Dark-type it gets STAB so pumps it up to 200.25 Power.
Of course a team of Urshifu and 5 Kartana is kind of boring, so let's mix it up by replacing four of those Kartana with the four other Pokemon with the highest Attack: Kyurem-Black (170), Zacian (170), Calyrex-Ice (165), and Regigigas (160; technically G-Darmanitan in its Zen Mode could also be used but let's keep it simple). So now it's (18 + 23.1 + 22 + 22 + 21.5 + 21) * 1.5 = 191.4 Power.
Now if we weren't restricted by who the user was, we could replace Urshifu-Single with G-Darmanitan-Zen... except we wouldn't get that STAB and that multiplier which gets it as high as we've seen it. "How about replacing Urshifu-Single with the Dark-type with the highest Attack?". That would be Tyranitar at 134, but with only being 4 point higher than Urshifu-Single it doesn't make much of a difference.
Now, onto the National Dex:
EDIT: BUT WAIT! There's a new challenger: Adaptability Crawdaunt. Though it only has 120 Attack (17), Adaptability makes it STAB 2x instead of 1.5x! Crawdaunt can't learn Beat Up (which is kind of odd thinking about it), so it'll be another batch of hypotheticals:
Of course a team of Urshifu and 5 Kartana is kind of boring, so let's mix it up by replacing four of those Kartana with the four other Pokemon with the highest Attack: Kyurem-Black (170), Zacian (170), Calyrex-Ice (165), and Regigigas (160; technically G-Darmanitan in its Zen Mode could also be used but let's keep it simple). So now it's (18 + 23.1 + 22 + 22 + 21.5 + 21) * 1.5 = 191.4 Power.
Now if we weren't restricted by who the user was, we could replace Urshifu-Single with G-Darmanitan-Zen... except we wouldn't get that STAB and that multiplier which gets it as high as we've seen it. "How about replacing Urshifu-Single with the Dark-type with the highest Attack?". That would be Tyranitar at 134, but with only being 4 point higher than Urshifu-Single it doesn't make much of a difference.
Now, onto the National Dex:
- Keeping within the rules, allowing Megas, allowing multiple: Urshifu, M-Mewtwo-X (190; 24), 4 Kartana = 201.6.
- Using Any Dark-type, allowing Megas, allowing multiple: M-Tyranitar (164; 21.4) & 5 Kartana: 205.25.
- Keeping within the rules, allowing Megas, varied team: Urshifu, M-Mewtwo-X, Kartana, Deoxys-A (180; 23), Groudon-P (180; 23), & Kyurem-Black = 199.65.
- Using Any Dark-type, allowing Megas, varied team: M-Tyranitar, Kartana, Deoxys-A, Groudon-P, Kyurem-Black, Zacian = 201.75
- Keeping within the rules, no Megas, allowing multiple... is once again Urshifu with 5 Kartana.
- Using Any Dark-type, no Megas, allowing multiple: Hoopa (160; 21) with 5 Kartana = 204.75.
- Keeping within the rules, no Megas/Super Forms, varied team: Urshifu, Kartana, Deoxys-A, Zacian, Calyrex-Ice = 194.4.
- Using Any Dark-type, no Megas/Super Forms, varied team: Hoopa, Kartana, Deoxys-A, Kyurem-Black, Zacian, Calyrex-Ice = 198.9.
EDIT: BUT WAIT! There's a new challenger: Adaptability Crawdaunt. Though it only has 120 Attack (17), Adaptability makes it STAB 2x instead of 1.5x! Crawdaunt can't learn Beat Up (which is kind of odd thinking about it), so it'll be another batch of hypotheticals:
- SwSh: Crawdaunt + 5 Kartana: 265 Power.
- SwSh: Crawdaunt + Kartana, Kyurem-Black, Zacian, Calyrex-Ice, Regigigas: 253.2.
National: Crawdaunt + M-Mewtwo, 4 Kartana: 266.6. - National: Crawdaunt + M-Mewtwo, Kartana, Deoxys-A, Groudon-P, Kyurem-Black = 264.2
- National: Crawdaunt + Kartana, Deoxys-A, Kyurem-Black, Zacian, Calyrex-Ice = 257.2
In doubles situations, it might be worth taking Yveltal, who has a not terrible Attack of 131 and a 1.33* multiplier from Dark Aura.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
So Platinum surprised a lot of people by giving Heat Wave to a bunch of Flying-types via Move Tutor when up until then it had been a move only available to Fire-types. This makes sense when you learn that the original name of the move is Hot Wind, though it seems the translators didn't get the memo:
The user exhales a heated breath on the foe to attack. It may also leave the target with a burn.
But that's fine, maybe some Pokemon simply puff hard enough to create a tornado-like gust and others simply flap their wings to heat the air they're blowing. All sorts of Fliers learn it, even ones with no real connection to wind powers like Zubat, Farfetch'd, Woobat, and Natu. However, there's one Flying-type which doesn't get it which seems like a weird exception - Drifblim. Which is literally a hot air balloon Pokemon.
I don't know what the Japanese description of the move says but given the original intent of the move as a wind-based one it's odd that basically every Fire-type has access to it - it seems like it should be specialised. I can see why Magcargo gets it (it can learn Sandstorm) or Arcanine (its Japanese name is Windie, after all) or Rapidash (I guess if you can run as fast as the wind, you can whip up a gust). But how do Vulpix, Pansear, Marowak, Houndour, or Fennekin suit it?
EDIT: Oh dear, I meant to post this in the movesets thread. Shouldn't post when I'm tired.
The user exhales a heated breath on the foe to attack. It may also leave the target with a burn.
But that's fine, maybe some Pokemon simply puff hard enough to create a tornado-like gust and others simply flap their wings to heat the air they're blowing. All sorts of Fliers learn it, even ones with no real connection to wind powers like Zubat, Farfetch'd, Woobat, and Natu. However, there's one Flying-type which doesn't get it which seems like a weird exception - Drifblim. Which is literally a hot air balloon Pokemon.
I don't know what the Japanese description of the move says but given the original intent of the move as a wind-based one it's odd that basically every Fire-type has access to it - it seems like it should be specialised. I can see why Magcargo gets it (it can learn Sandstorm) or Arcanine (its Japanese name is Windie, after all) or Rapidash (I guess if you can run as fast as the wind, you can whip up a gust). But how do Vulpix, Pansear, Marowak, Houndour, or Fennekin suit it?
EDIT: Oh dear, I meant to post this in the movesets thread. Shouldn't post when I'm tired.
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Heat Wave's Japanese description (since gen 4 I think?) has been 熱い 息を 相手に 吹きつけて 攻撃する。 やけど状態に することが ある
AKA "[The user] Attacks by blowing hot breath into the foe. Burns may occur."
It's very similar to the translation, but the meaning seems to include blowing air as is being able to do it with your mouth. Kinda like Frosted Breath. So it makes sense that most fire pokémon would be able to learn it. Drifloon not being able to learn it is weird, however
AKA "[The user] Attacks by blowing hot breath into the foe. Burns may occur."
It's very similar to the translation, but the meaning seems to include blowing air as is being able to do it with your mouth. Kinda like Frosted Breath. So it makes sense that most fire pokémon would be able to learn it. Drifloon not being able to learn it is weird, however
Vulpix family: They're Kitsunes so very magical creatures, creating a gust of hot air probably only talks a twitch of one of their tails.
Pansear family: They're able to heat themselves up by concentrating or when mad, and all that hot air has to go somewhere so why not at an enemy?
Alolan Marowak: Maybe it spins around its bone real fast like a fan?
Houndour family: Their flames are so hot they leave burns that never stop burning, think some generating hot air wouldn't be too much trouble.
Fennekin family: They not only expel heat from their ear fur but Braixen and Delphox are both spellcasters.
Though you're right that seems odd the Drifloon family isn't here despite at least Drifblim being based on a hot air balloon.
Other missing oddities: Remoraid family (Heat Wave is essentially Flamethrower just without the flames), Suicune (generates wind), Groudon (land & volcano god), Rayquaza (weather god), Celesteela (is a rocket ship), & Eternamax (it generates powerful energy)
Eh, it fits here just fine.
Deleted User 465389
Banned deucer.
Most Pokémon that can learn Horn Drill have either a horn or a body part that could be used as a drill, or evolve into a Pokémon that have one such thing.
But then you have Tyrunt, Tyrantrum, and Omastar (and Mew, but that's to be expected) in Gen I. What are they using as a drill? Their spikes?
But then you have Tyrunt, Tyrantrum, and Omastar (and Mew, but that's to be expected) in Gen I. What are they using as a drill? Their spikes?
Well it's a bit believable with Omastar, can assume it just makes the spike closest to its head longer via energy which it then charges the opponent.
As for the Tyrunt family, eh, yeah I have no idea what GF was thinking. Like, at best you could maybe say Tyrantrum's crest can be used as a horn for some moves like Horn Attack, but making it into a drill? Infact, I think that's the theory I'm going to go with, GF MEANT to give it Horn Attack but accidentally gave it Horn Drill (and it's such a minor mistake they either don't know about it or consider it not worth the effort to fix). So I guess the Tyrunt family now can use energy gather from their crest(s) to create a bigger horn to drill with.
There's no way they intended to give Tyrunt Horn Attack at level 49 (Tyrantrum at level 53)
Hm... Drill Run then?
Though if they were to give it any OHKO move Guillotine probably would be the closest to how a T-Rex would instantly kill you: biting you in half.
Fissure would also make some degree of sense. I do feel that GF tends to overvalue OHKO moves, and would want a mon that's described as that powerful to have an OHKO option, but the actual option they chose makes no sense.
It's worth noting that Aurorus doesn't learn any OHKO moves at all, and the only thing learned at around that level in XY is Ice Beam at 56. In newer gens, it gets Ice Beam earlier, so the comparison is Horn Drill vs Hail. Yeah. GF clearly has a favorite.
Edit: Scratch all that, wow. I just checked, Tyrunt was the ONLY mon to get access to an OHKO move in XY. Every other mon who had one had the move in previous generations. They specifically decided not to give out OHKO moves even when it would obviously fit(Fissure on Zygarde, etc), and yet gave Horn Drill to Tyrantrum? I'm more tempted to believe that someone messed up and forgot to remove it/change it/etc, because that's just such an odd decision.
It's worth noting that Aurorus doesn't learn any OHKO moves at all, and the only thing learned at around that level in XY is Ice Beam at 56. In newer gens, it gets Ice Beam earlier, so the comparison is Horn Drill vs Hail. Yeah. GF clearly has a favorite.
Edit: Scratch all that, wow. I just checked, Tyrunt was the ONLY mon to get access to an OHKO move in XY. Every other mon who had one had the move in previous generations. They specifically decided not to give out OHKO moves even when it would obviously fit(Fissure on Zygarde, etc), and yet gave Horn Drill to Tyrantrum? I'm more tempted to believe that someone messed up and forgot to remove it/change it/etc, because that's just such an odd decision.
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Drill Run's move ID is nowhere close to Horn Drill's (32 vs 529) and they learn it immediately after Earthquake, so that's also unlikely.
Which is especially weird because there is an Ice-type OHKO move that would make perfect sense for the Amaura family to learn: Sheer Cold (called Absolute Zero in Japan, and Aurorus's dex entry says that it can expel air as cold as -150 Celsius!).
Hm, if it were up to me, looking through the Kalos mons I think the following makes sense:
Fissure: Diggersby, Zygarde
Guillotine: Doublade/Aegislash, Clauncher family
Horn Drill: (None)
Sheer Cold: Amaura family
Yeah, this is crazy. Not only can I see the other OHKO moves having at least one Kalos mon learn them, Horn Drill is the only one where I can't see a Kalos mon learning by logical means!
Then I guess GF saw something in Tyrunt that we're not seeing... hey, GF, did the Tyrunt family originally have a horn you later removed?
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
It's hardly a burning injustice or a pressing issue, but I've always wondered: why don't the Hoenn starters get access to the elemental Hyper Beams until Gen IV? Venusaur, Charizard, and Blastoise can all be tutored the moves in FRLG, and the Johto starters can be obtained from XD with the moves. But Sceptile, Blaziken, and Swampert all miss out since there's no corresponding tutor in Emerald, and the FRLG tutor doesn't recognise any Pokemon but the Kanto starters. Why the exception for those three?
Considering FRLG came out before XD did, it seems like the elemental Hyper Beams were originally intended to be "signature moves" for the Kanto starters specifically when FRLG was released. XD came after FRLG iirc and that was the first time anyone other than the Kanto starters got the moves. I believe it was only once DP came out that they decided to make *all* starter Pokemon capable of learning the elemental Hyper Beams.
FRLG was very much a Kanto remake after all, and focused primarily on the Kanto mons. So I imagine the design philosophy with Frenzy Plant/Blast Burn/Hydro Cannon didn't change until the following generation.
They do all seem specifically designed for the Kanto starters, especially Frenzy Plant (with Venusaur having the flower) and Hydro Cannon (self explanatory).