Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

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redundancy (e.g you're using a team with specs Greninja, which shares hydro pump and dark pulse with Blastoise)
I'd like to disagree with this point, as I think Ash-Gren and Mega Toise on the same team is deadly in terms of the pressure they put on eachother's checks, and it gives Mega Toise more freedom to run Aura Sphere over Dark Pulse if it doesn't care about Toxapex, or Ice Beam if it wants to leave Tangrowth to Ash-Gren. The most viable Water resists in the tier:
Ferrothorn (no reliable recovery, gets bypassed by Aura Sphere)
Slowbro (Mega) (Run for physical bulk not special, bypassed by Dark Pulse)
Tangrowth (Bypassed by Ice Beam, can be overwhelmed by a transformed Ash-Gren)
Tapu Fini (No reliable recovery, often has to switch into hazards to clear them)
Toxapex (the only real shared check they have with reliable recovery, struggles to take Mega Toise's boosted Dark Pulse.)
Chansey (Bypassed by Aura Sphere, exploitable by physical attackers, passive)

So as you can see, several of the most common answers to one cannot check both in the same match. This is especially a problem when Ash-Gren starts stacking Spikes to wear down its checks even faster. And that's not to mention the possibility of running Protean Greninja as a hazard setter that lures in Mega Toise's checks for a devastating Z move. These two can both 6-0 teams that lack a reliable check to them, and many mons used to absorb their powerful Water-type moves lack the recovery required to check both. I'm wondering what you think of this offensive core, and any answers to it you can think of.
Greninja-Ash (M) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Battle Bond
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump/Surf
- Water Shuriken
- Dark Pulse
- Spikes
Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Shell Smash
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam/Dark Pulse
- Aura Sphere/Dark Pulse
 
AV Goodra can put up a serious fight, but it lacks access to reliable recovery and so can be worn down with careful play. It takes hits a lot better than I expected though.

Goodra beats Blastoise one-on-one with a little support, even if you come in on shell smash. +2 Blastoise can’t OHKO Goodra, even with dragon pulse, and the only other move that gets the 2KHO is Ice Beam. Meanwhile Draco has a 50% OHKO with Blastoise at -1, and an 87.5% OHKO with TBolt after rocks. You also have a 100% OHKO with Thunder. There are plenty of Pokémon who can U-Turn away from Blastoise as it sets up, allowing Goodra to come in and get the kill.

With a little luck, Goodra can even beat them back to back. Goodra can switch in on dark pulse from Greninja’s base form, take a second dark pulse and then has a an 81.3% OHKO with Draco. At this point Goodra has taken less then 50% and can survive any attack from Blastoise, even Dragon Pulse. If Blastoise uses shell smash and Goodra switches out, sacking the switch in and bringing Goodra back makes Ice Beam a roll to kill you. Meanwhile Blastoise has the same odds as the previous example.
 
AV Goodra can put up a serious fight, but it lacks access to reliable recovery and so can be worn down with careful play. It takes hits a lot better than I expected though.
Forget reliable recovery, it has no recovery at all.
Goodra beats Blastoise one-on-one with a little support, even if you come in on shell smash. +2 Blastoise can’t OHKO Goodra, even with dragon pulse, and the only other move that gets the 2KHO is Ice Beam. Meanwhile Draco has a 50% OHKO with Blastoise at -1, and an 87.5% OHKO with TBolt after rocks. You also have a 100% OHKO with Thunder. There are plenty of Pokémon who can U-Turn away from Blastoise as it sets up, allowing Goodra to come in and get the kill
The issue here is Mega Toise is usually behind Screens, which denys the OHKO for Goodra.
With a little luck, Goodra can even beat them back to back. Goodra can switch in on dark pulse from Greninja’s base form, take a second dark pulse and then has a an 81.3% OHKO with Draco. At this point Goodra has taken less then 50% and can survive any attack from Blastoise, even Dragon Pulse. If Blastoise uses shell smash and Goodra switches out, sacking the switch in and bringing Goodra back makes Ice Beam a roll to kill you. Meanwhile Blastoise has the same odds as the previous example.
Greninja will usually just switch out, at which point Goodra's total inability to recover HP makes it easier to kill later. Plus if the Greninja user is desperate enough to stay in, Dark Pulse does carry a 20% flinch. Appreciate the attempt though.
 
Oh Goodra certainly doesn’t counter both Pokémon. But it puts up a better fight than many and could be a viable option in conjunction with other checks or the right support. The list of Pokémon who can OHKO Blastoise after shell smash is rather short.

One particular entry on that list I just discovered is Tapu Koko. Scarf Koko outspeeds Blastoise at +2 and has a guaranteed OHKO with thunderbolt. While it doesn’t have a guaranteed OHKO before Shell Smash, it deals massive damage with Volt Switch and can harass opponents trying to swap into a good match up. Water Shuriken OHKOs after rocks, so pairing Koko with hazard removal is important to preserve its longevity.

Two checks that you didn’t mention are Amoongus and Shiinotic. Shiinoitc is beat by Ice Beam on either Pokémon, but once the Ice Beam user is defeated it can completely wall the other. Additionally, it has a 25% chance of OHKO’ing Greninja with Moonblast.

Max SpD AV Amoongus beats Blastoise 1v1, even post shell smash. Ice Beam does 51-61 at +2, but Giga Drain heals Amoongus enough to survive a second attack and gets the 2HKO.

A great wall breaker to pair with the Blastoise/Greninja core is Hoopa-U. Hoopa-U’s psychic typing allows it to beat Toxapex and Amoongus, and it puts Amoongus in an amusing catch-22: if it runs enough SpD to beat Ice Beam Blastoise, it opens itself up to getting OHKO’d by Hoopa-U. CB Hoopa-U has a variety of coverage moves that hit specially bulky Pokémon hard:
  • Drain Punch: 2HKO against Chansey
  • Fire Punch: 81% OHKO against Ferrothorn
  • Gunk Shot: OHKO against Shiinotic, OHKO against Tapu Fini, 62% OHKO Tangrowth
 
Oh Goodra certainly doesn’t counter both Pokémon. But it puts up a better fight than many and could be a viable option in conjunction with other checks or the right support. The list of Pokémon who can OHKO Blastoise after shell smash is rather short.

One particular entry on that list I just discovered is Tapu Koko. Scarf Koko outspeeds Blastoise at +2 and has a guaranteed OHKO with thunderbolt. While it doesn’t have a guaranteed OHKO before Shell Smash, it deals massive damage with Volt Switch and can harass opponents trying to swap into a good match up. Water Shuriken OHKOs after rocks, so pairing Koko with hazard removal is important to preserve its longevity.

Two checks that you didn’t mention are Amoongus and Shiinotic. Shiinoitc is beat by Ice Beam on either Pokémon, but once the Ice Beam user is defeated it can completely wall the other. Additionally, it has a 25% chance of OHKO’ing Greninja with Moonblast.

Max SpD AV Amoongus beats Blastoise 1v1, even post shell smash. Ice Beam does 51-61 at +2, but Giga Drain heals Amoongus enough to survive a second attack and gets the 2HKO.

A great wall breaker to pair with the Blastoise/Greninja core is Hoopa-U. Hoopa-U’s psychic typing allows it to beat Toxapex and Amoongus, and it puts Amoongus in an amusing catch-22: if it runs enough SpD to beat Ice Beam Blastoise, it opens itself up to getting OHKO’d by Hoopa-U. CB Hoopa-U has a variety of coverage moves that hit specially bulky Pokémon hard:
  • Drain Punch: 2HKO against Chansey
  • Fire Punch: 81% OHKO against Ferrothorn
  • Gunk Shot: OHKO against Shiinotic, OHKO against Tapu Fini, 62% OHKO Tangrowth
This looks nice and all on paper but in reality:

:goodra: Nobody runs this because it's so easy to take advantage of. Gren pretty much always runs Spikes and Goodra's lack of any recovery whatsoever makes it super easy to wear down, especially in conjunction with the omnipresent Toxic and Knock Off. Its weak physical bulk just makes it more exploitable as well the fact that a lot of what it checks (Zard-Y, Serperior, etc) isn't even relevant enough and can be checked by something much more useful.

:tapu-koko: This is just god awful as a wallbreaker, let alone a scarfer. Aside from removing very specific mons, it's frail and therefore can't afford to be weak offensively either. One would much rather run Scarf Greninja, who still outspeeds Blastoise after a Smash while still revenge-killing a much larger portion of the meta. There's a reason why this isn't on the VR.

:amoonguss: Yeah, nobody runs Max SpD as that just makes your ability to check Kartana worse. AV still beats Blastoise 1v1 though, provided Screens aren't up.

:shiinotic: Why mention this when Bulu exists? Even Bulu itself doesn't want to eat Ice Beams(and there's a pretty big chance that BOTH Gren and Toise are running it), so there's no reason any good player would run this over it. Both are bad anyway in steel-infested meta.

:hoopa-unbound: Once again, no good player runs this. Stall already sucks rn and this is so slow that you're just playing 5v6 against offense, which is super common right now.

So yeah, aside from Amoonguss, no good player runs these aforementioned mons. Nice effort though.
 

You what, I'm surprised Dragonite didn't get more discussion after Zygarde was banned (or after FSG remade the Dragonite video).
Dragonite, like Zygarde, is a bulky set set-up sweeper that can use a variety of different sets to fit its team.
Of course, Dragonite doesn't have Zygarde's luxury of Thousand Arrows, which is arguably the best move in the game.
However, Dragonite is far from just bootleg Zygarde or Salamence.

The biggest draw to Dragonite is it's hidden ability, Multiscale, essentially giving Dragonite 91/151/160 bulk when ever Dragonite is at full health, and that is just uninvested. And thanks to Heavy-Duty Boots, it can maintain that incredible bulk and lets Dragonite keeps 25% of its HP.
This bulk and HDB also enable defensive variants of Dragonite. Having access to Defog, Haze, Roost, Dragon Tail, and Heal Bell, Dragonite can be a more supportive role on bulkier teams, and it allows Dragonite to check some of the deadliest sweepers in the game.
252 HP/124+ SpD will always survive a +2 Ice Beam from Mega Blastoise, but you can always invest more
+2 252 SpA Blastoise-Mega Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 124+ SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 326-384 (84.4 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 124+ SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 89-105 (23 - 27.2%) -- 60.7% chance to 4HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Clefable Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 124+ SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 133-156 (34.4 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 HP/132 Def can also help it against the likes of NatDex's greatest physical threats too.
252 Atk Metagross Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 132 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 154-182 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 132 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 100-118 (25.9 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Kartana Smart Strike vs. 252 HP / 132 Def Dragonite: 201-237 (52 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Assuming Multiscale was broken)
Ok, getting a bit off track.
Dragonite will primarily be using offensive oriented sets however.
Back to Multiscale, at full health, Dragonite is much harder to revenge kill, surviving x4 hits from Mega Lopunny, Scarf Greninja, Hydregion, and even Specs Dragapult.

The other big draw to Dragonite is Extreme Speed, and having a much more powerful one than Zygarde. Extreme Speed is an extremely effective clean-up tool for Dragonite, as it bypasses its mediocre speed, scarfers, and priority abusers that are not Ghost. This utility was one of Zygarde's greatest traits, and it is something Salamence lacks entirely.
A +1 Extreme Speed from Dragonite will OHKO Scarf Greninja 43.8% of the time after Stealth Rocks, and thanks to Multiscale, can even survive an Ice Beam.
Zygarde can only 2HKO Greninja, and Salamence can't do anything if it isn't at +2 Speed.
Another popular scarfer, Darmanitan-G, is actually only a threat to Zygarde with Rocks up. Extreme Speed will barely kill Darmanitan-G with Dragonite, and Salamence will simply outspeed after a Dragon Dance. Zygarde needs Darmanitan-G to have taken 2 Stealth Rocks before it can possibly KO with +1 Extreme Speed.
Another revenge killer Zygarde would have trouble with Mega Alakazam, having such high Speed, Megazam can outspeed +1 Zygarde, and Megazam is bulky enough to survive a +1 extreme speed, while Dragonite will have a 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rocks.
The 134 Atk Dragonite uses for stronger Espeed, Outrage, and Z-moves, it also makes Dnite's Earthquake almost as strong as Zygarde's Thousand Arrows.
252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 123-145 (30.4 - 35.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Zygarde Thousand Arrows vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 135-160 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
While it is unable to hit Corviknight, Rotom, and other airborne Pokemon, and it is slightly weaker, but that slightly weaker is still incredibly strong and provides great coverage.

Lastly, Dragonite can also spec into its Special side thanks to its great special movepool, with moves like Hurricane, Thunder/Thunderbolt, Blizzard/Ice Beam, Fire Blast/Flamethrower, Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse, Focus Blast, and Surf, Dragonite has enough coverage to be fully Special, instead of Mixed or not at all, if you want a bulk special attacker.
 
Just gonna yeet my defensive rotom-h set here in case anyone finds it useful.

rotom-heat.gif


Rotom-Heat @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 248 HP / 92 Def / 112 SpD / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Defog
- Will-O-Wisp
- Volt Switch
- Overheat

Most of the time you'd rather have 204 def but the 112 SpDef is useful on certain teams so you don't get 6-0'd by mega zard y on team preview (such as teams using slowbro/fini/seismitoad as their bulky water). The extra spdef helps it pivot around annoying mons like heatran, zapdos, torn-t, and clefable better though.

-> Lives two timid fire blasts from mega zard y most of the time
-> Has enough speed to outpace max speed adamant ttar
-> Rest of bulk dumped into defense so it checks giant threats such as mega mawile, megagross, g-darm, and others better

Incoming wall of calcs

252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 112 SpD Rotom-Heat in Sun: 133-157 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO (This is honestly the best I could do. Any more SpDef investment makes it so rotom-h can't handle the physical threats properly)

252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 248 HP / 112 SpD Rotom-Heat: 129-153 (42.5 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Sucker Punch vs. 248 HP / 92+ Def Rotom-Heat: 226-267 (74.5 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (Also lives knock off + sucker punch most of the time)

252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 92+ Def Rotom-Heat: 87-102 (28.7 - 33.6%) -- 0.5% chance to 3HKO (This is kind of spooky since you can only safely switch in once or twice but 204+ def is still a 4HKO regardless)

252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 92+ Def Rotom-Heat: 145-172 (47.8 - 56.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO (Lives a zen headbutt into a burned zen headbutt in a 1v1. You get some leeway so you can switch into bullet punch, thunder/ice punch, or meteor mash and still take two hits)
 
Does anyone think banning Blastoisinite would have much of an effect on stall? I've been trying to build a team that can't handle Mega Blastoise, in favor of other things, to get an idea of how stall might look if the suspect test ends in a ban. However, I haven't been able to find checks to various other threats that don't check Mega Blastoise.

For example, I find that I usually need Clefable for stealth rock or heal bell, as I usually can't fit both on the rest of my team. Gastrodon serves as a great check to Dracovish, many volt switchers, Blacephalon, and Mega Metagross lacking zen headbutt. It is also easily made a check to Blastoise with clear smog. Mantine can serve as a check with defog for Heatran and Ash-Greninja; as well as a check to Dracovish, Blacephalon, Zard-Y (you may not want to use Chansey on every team), and even tail glow Manaphy (which can shred many stall teams with rain support and a z crystal). It can reliably check Mega Blastoise with some special defense investment. And of course, there is also Pyukumuku, a great check to Mega Blastoise and many other threats.

Basically, it seems like stall won't be affected much, if at all, from the outcome of the suspect test; the Pokemon that are used to check Mega Blastoise find their way on stall teams anyway. I don't think this should affect the outcome of the suspect test, but I wanted to share my thoughts to see if anyone else thinks otherwise.
 
Does anyone think banning Blastoisinite would have much of an effect on stall? I've been trying to build a team that can't handle Mega Blastoise, in favor of other things, to get an idea of how stall might look if the suspect test ends in a ban. However, I haven't been able to find checks to various other threats that don't check Mega Blastoise.

For example, I find that I usually need Clefable for stealth rock or heal bell, as I usually can't fit both on the rest of my team. Gastrodon serves as a great check to Dracovish, many volt switchers, Blacephalon, and Mega Metagross lacking zen headbutt. It is also easily made a check to Blastoise with clear smog. Mantine can serve as a check with defog for Heatran and Ash-Greninja; as well as a check to Dracovish, Blacephalon, Zard-Y (you may not want to use Chansey on every team), and even tail glow Manaphy (which can shred many stall teams with rain support and a z crystal). It can reliably check Mega Blastoise with some special defense investment. And of course, there is also Pyukumuku, a great check to Mega Blastoise and many other threats.

Basically, it seems like stall won't be affected much, if at all, from the outcome of the suspect test; the Pokemon that are used to check Mega Blastoise find their way on stall teams anyway. I don't think this should affect the outcome of the suspect test, but I wanted to share my thoughts to see if anyone else thinks otherwise.
I have been playing stall for a while on national dex, peaked rank 1 at 1892 with a moltres stall team I am sure you have seen. Mega Blastoise was fairly easy to cover with unaware clefable, and on another stall I use a similar dragonite set to the one cuddly posted and also have unaware clef. Blastoise being banned will likely change nothing for those of us after your pp. With vish and greninja still as relevant as ever powerful water resistances are needed regardless of what happens to mega toise in my opinion.

The biggest impact it will have is on scarf pokemon not named greninja. Decline of viable scarf users is impart because few good ones exsist that can revenge Mtoise. While threats like Dragapult still will outspeed any scarf mon you throw at it, the Mew Screens hyper offense that mindlessly haunts mid and low ladder will be less of a thought as we all pick and choose our pokemon and the rolls they will play. Looking forward to it.
 
:blastoise-mega: has been banned!

Discuss the metagame post Mega Blastoise here! We will be taking this time to observe the metagame via the ssnl which will commence shortly and will likely address any future potential issues swiftly after.
Thank God! Anyways, as I've done before, here are some of my predictions for the upcoming meta:

:sm/Toxapex: :sm/slowbro: :sm/Gastrodon: :sm/mantine:

Blastoise being banned means the bulky water slot no longer has to be dedicated to Tapu Fini, meaning that bulkier teams like Balance can now run other options that may fit better. Balance in general will be a lot better imo without needing very specific defensive cores to avoid being blasted through. Fini is still a great option due to Defog, stallbreaking, and Misty Terrain, but she'll likely decrease a tiny bit in usage as she can struggle to check certain mons that some of the other waters can.

:sm/kartana: :ss/darmanitan-galar: :sm/Greninja-Ash:

The Choice Scarfer/Revenge Killer slot has been opened up a lot too. I predict a decrease in Protean Gren & Ditto usage, and an increase in other capable speed Control options such as Scarf Darm-G.

:sm/chansey: :sm/Skarmory: :sm/Sableye-Mega:

Stall is likely going to remain pretty meh due to the popularity of breakers like Gengar and Heatran, but at least it doesn't have to worry about falling apart as Chansey dies to repeated +2 Aura Spheres.

:sm/charizard-mega-x: :sm/Volcarona:

Certain Fire-types appreciated the fact that players were ditching Pex and Bro for Fini as the teams they were on could easily wear Fini down. These Fire-types also often ran super-effective coverage to take advantage of Fini's lack of recovery, such as Volcarona ditching Buzz for Giga Drain. If other bulky waters rise back up in usage(which they likely will), expect these Fire-types to drop in usage.

Those are all my predictions. Any thoughts or anything to add?
 

NuttyRabbit

Banned deucer.
One change I think is worth noting is that with Mega Blastoise's departure, Mega Metagross becomes the undisputed best Mega in the game

:ss/Metagross-Mega:

Now while you could argue this was the case prior to the ban,I think it's all the more clear past it. Granted, it hates the fact that Slowbro is going to rise in usage, but it absolutely preys upon the other bulky waters that will see more use, and it also somewhat appreciates the inevitable drop in usage most fire types will see due to that.

In terms of moveset, it will probably still opt to run T-punch as it hits most of the bulky waters and Corviknight decently hard, but I think a new, more interesting option will arise on certain teams: Hone Claws. Hone Claws gives it the power to boost its attack without relying on Mash's odds or ability to proc Rocky Helmet, and in conjunction with Mash, can turn certain would be counters or checks into well...not those things. Now granted, it would still be walled by Ferro and checked by Tran and Aegi so Hammer Arm/EQ is still the better option most of the time, but I think HC is worth considering

In general, I think Mega Meta will continue to be one of the best Pokemon and the best Mega in the game, with the ban only helping in that regard. I know there's some discussion going around over whether it's broken and I feel like it's on the edge of being so but not quite there, but we'll see as the meta develops.

I'm personally excited to see where things head in the next month or two, especially once the DLC drops and flips it all on its head.

Also use Cloyster.
 

I'm surprised no one has been discussing Mega Gyarados (or any discussion at all since for a few weeks).
Mega Gyarados right now is pretty notable right now as the 3 Pokemon on the Radar current are all checked by Mega Gyarados while it gets to set up on at least threaten them out.
:Greninja-Ash:
With Greninja-Ash, Mega Gyarados is a great switch-in, especially before Greninja transforms. Thanks to its typing and 95/130 bulk, Mega Gyarados can shrug off most hits from Ash-Greninja. With Power Whip, it immediately threatens Greninja. allowing it to get an opportunity to set up easily or get free damage.
:Darmanitan-Galar:
Just like how Mega Blastoise could use Darmanitan-G as set up bait, Mega Gyarados can do it to a lesser extent. Resisting Icicle Crash and Flare Blitz can let Mega Gyarados survive against Scarf variants pretty easily. This also works well with how Megas work, as regular Gyarados is immune to Earthquake and can Intimidate Darmanitan-G. Although Gyarados does need to be pre-evolved, had used intimidate, or a teammate used Reflect to handle Earthquake and U-turn.
:Metagross-Mega:
Lastly, Mega Metagross is the hardest for Mega Gyarados. Without Choice Lock, it is harder to use Megagross as set-up bait, and its Thunderpunchs hit Gyarados pretty hard. However, all Mega Gyarados needs is for Megagross to hit it on immunity depending on the form. If Metagross Earthquakes, not only does it waste a turn, but it softens the Thunder Punch for it's Mega Evolution with intimidate. If you are Mega Evolved, then Zen Headbutt with give you a free switch and you'll have enough health to survive Thunder Punch (but not Hammer Arm).

Obvious, it's not a counter to all three of these Pokemon by Smogon's definition, but it's a pretty good blanket check to all of them. Give Gyarados some investment in bulk, and it will do a swell job against them.
 

pulsar512b

ss ou fangirl
is a Pre-Contributor

I'm surprised no one has been discussing Mega Gyarados (or any discussion at all since for a few weeks).
Mega Gyarados right now is pretty notable right now as the 3 Pokemon on the Radar current are all checked by Mega Gyarados while it gets to set up on at least threaten them out.
:Greninja-Ash:
With Greninja-Ash, Mega Gyarados is a great switch-in, especially before Greninja transforms. Thanks to its typing and 95/130 bulk, Mega Gyarados can shrug off most hits from Ash-Greninja. With Power Whip, it immediately threatens Greninja. allowing it to get an opportunity to set up easily or get free damage.
:Darmanitan-Galar:
Just like how Mega Blastoise could use Darmanitan-G as set up bait, Mega Gyarados can do it to a lesser extent. Resisting Icicle Crash and Flare Blitz can let Mega Gyarados survive against Scarf variants pretty easily. This also works well with how Megas work, as regular Gyarados is immune to Earthquake and can Intimidate Darmanitan-G. Although Gyarados does need to be pre-evolved, had used intimidate, or a teammate used Reflect to handle Earthquake and U-turn.
:Metagross-Mega:
Lastly, Mega Metagross is the hardest for Mega Gyarados. Without Choice Lock, it is harder to use Megagross as set-up bait, and its Thunderpunchs hit Gyarados pretty hard. However, all Mega Gyarados needs is for Megagross to hit it on immunity depending on the form. If Metagross Earthquakes, not only does it waste a turn, but it softens the Thunder Punch for it's Mega Evolution with intimidate. If you are Mega Evolved, then Zen Headbutt with give you a free switch and you'll have enough health to survive Thunder Punch (but not Hammer Arm).

Obvious, it's not a counter to all three of these Pokemon by Smogon's definition, but it's a pretty good blanket check to all of them. Give Gyarados some investment in bulk, and it will do a swell job against them.
That's a really interesting idea, and I'll probably give Mega Gyarados a go because of this.

A potential problem i can see out of the gate is that it does not appreciate the rise in rocky helmet tangrowth from recent metagame trends.
 

scorbunnys

Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
Hi bros, Today I will publish about a possible metagame unban and why
landorus.gif

On paper it seems a very dangerous mon and if it is, but this metagame can take care of it, let's go point by point.
Sets: Life Orb, Choice Specs and Fightinium Z
Counters / Checks:
- Celesteela: Celesteela can take hits from even her most offensive sets, Leech Seed + Heavy Slam + Protect can kill Landorus-I easily and can wear him down, forcing him to switch, he certainly is a good counter and I think if he banned he would have a niche in the metagame.
- SubCM Sylveon: Despite not being able to easily check all his sets, Sub CM Sylveon can still check Landorus-I, Landorus-I cannot enter the switch in vs this specific variant of Sylveon, because then Sylveon evades damage with Substitute and can use Calm Mind and then Protect, so Landorus-I will no longer be a threat if you carry this Sylveon variant, although Specs Landorus-I is still a bit dangerous, but if Sylveon can scout at the right time, Landorus-I is not that threatening.
- Darmanitan Galar + Greninja Ash: They can easily threaten Landorus-I with their stabs, they don't change for how fragile they are, but if you play them carefully I don't see why Landorus-I would be a threat to them, these mons are really threatening and are two of the best National Dex mons, so this is a con for Landorus-I.
- Crocune + SpDef EV Spread: Similar to Sylveon SubCM, but Suicune can answer him louder with Scald, so Suicune easily handles Landorus-I, although Suicune also has the same issues of being a trustworthy answer as Sylveon, he can still handle Suicune at the right time.
- Latias-Mega & Cresselia: I think that both would have an important role as counters of Landorus-I, because both resist their moves and answer them strongly, it is basically that, I also emphasize that Trick Room is a little better because there is Dracovish, which can beat Landorus-I under Trick Room.
- Vaporeon: I think that if this mon is banned, Vaporeon SpDef will have a more solid niche because unlike Alomomola it can eat 2 Earth Power from Landorus-I Life Orb and this added to having immunity to Hydro Pump Specs Ninja, I think it will have a fun niche interesting.
Why deserves a Unban: This metagame has not innovated much and I think that this mon besides not being insane, it would be healthy for the metagame, because it would innovate a lot, taking things like Celesteela, Cresselia (Trick Room in general) and Sylveon SubCM that are rare in this metagame and It also has its most common counters, I don't think it's insane at the moment and I think that although it would cause stress in team building, it is the opportunity for a more innovative metagame.
VR Rank predict: S
Please do not criticize me and if you need to post something about this, go ahead, it is just an idea to make a more fun and creative metagame, National Dex OU is great and I hope it continues to grow.
By the way, why is Ditto still in A- when he's supposed to be down?
As much as that day has not yet come, happy mothers day!!! :D
Anything you don't understand about the post don't hesitate to let me know
 
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Hi bros, Today I will publish about a possible metagame unban and why
View attachment 244160
On paper it seems a very dangerous mon and if it is, but this metagame can take care of it, let's go point by point.
Sets: Life Orb, Choice Specs and Fightinium Z
Counters / Checks:
- Celesteela: Celesteela can take hits from even her most offensive sets, Leech Seed + Heavy Slam + Protect can kill Landorus-I easily and can wear him down, forcing him to switch, he certainly is a good counter and I think if he banned he would have a niche in the metagame.
- Venusaur-Mega SpDef + Chansey core: Basically this core is to be able to check all its sets, Specs Landorus-I breaks Venusaur-Mega and Fightinium-Z breaks Chansey, but with some prediction they both complement each other and can take care of Landorus-I, it may seem centralizing, but if you take one of these two and both in a team, it will be enough to take care of Landorus-I.
- SubCM Sylveon: Despite not being able to easily check all his sets, Sub CM Sylveon can still check Landorus-I, Landorus-I cannot enter the switch in vs this specific variant of Sylveon, because then Sylveon evades damage with Substitute and can use Calm Mind and then Protect, so Landorus-I will no longer be a threat if you carry this Sylveon variant, although Specs Landorus-I is still a bit dangerous, but if Sylveon can scout at the right time, Landorus-I is not that threatening.
- Darmanitan Galar + Greninja Ash: They can easily threaten Landorus-I with their stabs, they don't change for how fragile they are, but if you play them carefully I don't see why Landorus-I would be a threat to them, these mons are really threatening and are two of the best National Dex mons, so this is a con for Landorus-I.
- Crocune + SpDef EV Spread: Similar to Sylveon SubCM, but Suicune can answer him louder with Scald, so Suicune easily handles Landorus-I, although Suicune also has the same issues of being a trustworthy answer as Sylveon, he can still handle Suicune at the right time.
- BU Corviknight: Corviknight is a great check for Landorus-I because BU Corviknight + Brave Bird can answer loudly while Landorus-I doesn't deal much damage to Corviknight and the only set that does him some damage is the Fightinium Z, which can only 3HKO during a turn and Superpower is not reliable because Corviknight would have used Roost by then, Corviknight is perhaps the best Landorus-I counter and is quite a used mon.
- Latias-Mega & Cresselia: I think that both would have an important role as counters of Landorus-I, because both resist their moves and answer them strongly, it is basically that, I also emphasize that Trick Room is a little better because there is Dracovish, which can beat Landorus-I under Trick Room.
- Vaporeon: I think that if this mon is banned, Vaporeon SpDef will have a more solid niche because unlike Alomomola it can eat 2 Earth Power from Landorus-I Life Orb and this added to having immunity to Hydro Pump Specs Ninja, I think it will have a fun niche interesting.
Why deserves a Unban: This metagame has not innovated much and I think that this mon besides not being insane, it would be healthy for the metagame, because it would innovate a lot, taking things like Celesteela, Cresselia (Trick Room in general) and Sylveon SubCM that are rare in this metagame and It also has its most common counters, I don't think it's insane at the moment and I think that although it would cause stress in team building, it is the opportunity for a more innovative metagame.
VR Rank predict: S
Please do not criticize me and if you need to post something about this, go ahead, it is just an idea to make a more fun and creative metagame, National Dex OU is great and I hope it continues to grow.
By the way, why is Ditto still in A- when he's supposed to be down?
As much as that day has not yet come, happy mothers day!!! :D
Anything you don't understand about the post don't hesitate to let me know
Let me just say I've been playing showdown for a long time and I was present on the ladder for most of Landorus-I's life in ORAs so I know what I'm talking about with this. (I hope lol)

Now lets see these "Checks" shall we.

:celesteela: - Straight up unviable in the metagame at the moment. It definitely doesn't appreciate its leftovers getting knocked off and can be trapped by Magnezone.
:venusaur-mega: + :chansey: - With knock off support, CM Landorus-I can beat Chansey (+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Chansey: 577-681 (82 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and SpD Mega Venusaur gets 2HKO after a boost.
:sylveon: - Sludge Wave is one of the only coverage options I would say is necessary on Landorus-I and because of that this isn't even a check lol.
:darmanitan-galar: + :greninja-ash: - Darm-G loses to RP and forces Greninja to water shuriken which can be taken advantage of by teammates.
:suicune: - Hates being knocked off and Rest variants are now very easy to take advantage of.
:corviknight: - CM can easily overwhelm this thing and its trapped by Magnezone.
:latias-mega: and :cresselia: - Actually pretty good checks. However if we have to use them, whats to say Landorus-I will start being run with Pursuit.
:vaporeon: - Let me just say that if a Pokemon is only viable because another Pokemon can destroy the rest of metagame then thats not a good sign of a healthy metagame.

Finally we are currently in the mist of testing Mega Metagross and maybe even Darm-G soon and randomly retesting a Pokemon with no counters in a metagame like this is just not a good idea.
 

scorbunnys

Don't dream your life, but live your dream. #Bunny
Let me just say I've been playing showdown for a long time and I was present on the ladder for most of Landorus-I's life in ORAs so I know what I'm talking about with this. (I hope lol)

Now lets see these "Checks" shall we.

:celesteela: - Straight up unviable in the metagame at the moment. It definitely doesn't appreciate its leftovers getting knocked off and can be trapped by Magnezone.
:venusaur-mega: + :chansey: - With knock off support, CM Landorus-I can beat Chansey (+1 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Chansey: 577-681 (82 - 96.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO) and SpD Mega Venusaur gets 2HKO after a boost.
:sylveon: - Sludge Wave is one of the only coverage options I would say is necessary on Landorus-I and because of that this isn't even a check lol.
:darmanitan-galar: + :greninja-ash: - Darm-G loses to RP and forces Greninja to water shuriken which can be taken advantage of by teammates.
:suicune: - Hates being knocked off and Rest variants are now very easy to take advantage of.
:corviknight: - CM can easily overwhelm this thing and its trapped by Magnezone.
:latias-mega: and :cresselia: - Actually pretty good checks. However if we have to use them, whats to say Landorus-I will start being run with Pursuit.
:vaporeon: - Let me just say that if a Pokemon is only viable because another Pokemon can destroy the rest of metagame then thats not a good sign of a healthy metagame.

Finally we are currently in the mist of testing Mega Metagross and maybe even Darm-G soon and randomly retesting a Pokemon with no counters in a metagame like this is just not a good idea.
I don't want to go any further just because it would derail the thread, but I just have to say that the metagame doesn't innovate and that's what I'm going for.
As for Sylveon, well if I check it in proper condition and well, I forget about CM Landorus-I + Focus Blast, but i had a calc
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Sludge Wave vs. +1 252 HP / 16+ SpD Sylveon: 169-200 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Landorus: 253-298 (79.3 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It may not explain well there, but sylveon doesn't check all its variants, but it can count its variants All-Out-Attacker with Hyper Voice + Substitute + Calm Mind and as for Vaporeon, it would not only be taken by Landorus-I , but by Greninja-Ash and Dracovish himself (which is rare, but I have to mention it) and I would only say that it would have a fun niche, not that you would depend on it.

As for Corviknight, Venusaur-Mega and Chansey, they were eliminated
 
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Have we tried suspecting zamazenta in the national dex ou? It doesn't seem like it would be too overwhelming with galarian darmanitan and all the other counters running around. And yes it could definitely wall a lot of them but there are a lot of sacred sword users that are somewhat viable in national dex ou and may bring viability back to pokemon like keldeo and terrakion.
 
Have we tried suspecting zamazenta in the national dex ou? It doesn't seem like it would be too overwhelming with galarian darmanitan and all the other counters running around. And yes it could definitely wall a lot of them but there are a lot of sacred sword users that are somewhat viable in national dex ou and may bring viability back to pokemon like keldeo and terrakion.
We've done plenty of unban zama tours and the general consensus seems to be "it's worth unbanning sometime, but rn we have stuff to get out of the way".
We have to finish mgross suspect, gdarm potentially get a suspect, and then DLC will practically be on us, and then we have to deal with that (fortunately it doesn't affect us nearly as much as other tiers)
 

Guard

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Have we tried suspecting zamazenta in the national dex ou? It doesn't seem like it would be too overwhelming with galarian darmanitan and all the other counters running around. And yes it could definitely wall a lot of them but there are a lot of sacred sword users that are somewhat viable in national dex ou and may bring viability back to pokemon like keldeo and terrakion.
Sadly, a Zamazenta suspect test will not be up for consideration. A Zamazenta with a free item slot is just too much of a threat to ever consider unbanning, as Choice Band and Howl Z-Move sets hold uncomfortable amounts of wallbreaking potential. Although Zamazenta-C is significantly worse, unbanning it will require a complex clause in order to force all Zamazenta to hold the Rusted Shield item, which is not in line with Smogon policy, and therefore will not be considered either.
 
Sadly, a Zamazenta suspect test will not be up for consideration. A Zamazenta with a free item slot is just too much of a threat to ever consider unbanning, as Choice Band and Howl Z-Move sets hold uncomfortable amounts of wallbreaking potential. Although Zamazenta-C is significantly worse, unbanning it will require a complex clause in order to force all Zamazenta to hold the Rusted Shield item, which is not in line with Smogon policy, and therefore will not be considered either.
I don't know if Silvally's situation is similar or not. The normal type, the basic form, is classified in PUBL. But a certain number of other types are still authorized in PU and and are not however placed by default in PUBL. They are also alternative forms based on the wearing of a specific object, in this case the "Memory". In another register, Landorus-Therian is also a derived form, which is playable in OU despite the ban of its Incarnate alter ego, which exists through the use of Reveal Glass but which on the contrary can carry an alternative object. I could be wrong but I'm not sure that there is a need for a complex clause in the case of Zamazenta (I don't see why the two forms would be inseparable in tiering). But I have no opinion on a hypothetical suspect (I also suppose that it is not the good thread to discuss it)
 
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Have we tried suspecting zamazenta in the national dex ou? It doesn't seem like it would be too overwhelming with galarian darmanitan and all the other counters running around. And yes it could definitely wall a lot of them but there are a lot of sacred sword users that are somewhat viable in national dex ou and may bring viability back to pokemon like keldeo and terrakion.
Well, i also thought that was a good idea, until i realised that he has similar issues than mega metagross. Depending on the moveset, howl, despite being one of the worst setup moves in the game, allows it to 2HKO most of potential defensives mons, that can't do much back, thanks to his immunity to toxic and great bulk (Tangrowth EQ only deals 25%, toxapex can only try to fish for scald and take 50% on psychic fang or wild charge at +1, slowbro get crunched/wildcharged, 2HKOed at +1, and can only fish for scald). The most consistents answers i found to it are hippodown, the water type unaware users and mega lopunny, lopunny being the only viable pokemon in OU i found (EDIT: also darm galar with Fblitz) (Bar scarf heatran with magma storm, but this is kinda an unset) being able to outspeed it and OHKO it with HJK (And that's a roll, but fake out negate that). Also, i didn't found good offensives answers to agility + 3 attacks set, since even without any defensive investment, it can avoid the OHKO from almost anything. But this thing is so fast that adamant only needs 100 ev in speed to outspeed any scarfer in the tier, so he can just put 156 ev in defensive stats to be even more impossible to revenge kill. Jolly is even worse, since it doesn't need ANY investment, since after an agility boost, it reaches 642 in speed (Scarf timid pult only reaches 632) Do i even need to say that priority moves are useless against this thing?
So, in my opinion, this thing can invalidate offensive playstyles, which isn't really healthy at all. This thing has literally toxapex's bulk, tapu koko's speed tier and garchomp's attack stat.

HOWEVER maybe i'm super wrong, and in this case feel free to correct me.

252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Flare Blitz vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 300-354 (92.3 - 108.9%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Gorilla Tactics Darmanitan-Galar Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 250-296 (76.9 - 91%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I guess that's a non-agility check

252 Atk Kartana Sacred Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 182-216 (56 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 254-302 (78.1 - 92.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. +1 0 HP / 4 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 318-374 (97.8 - 115%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

And what if it's a jolly agility set?

Of course, Kartana, Lopunny, and Gdarm gets all destroyed by stab Close combat. Landorus T avoid the 2HKO from anything not called ice fangs, thanks to intimidate. However, it relies on his bulk to checks zamazenta-C, since earthquake always 2HKO.
 
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I just hopped on the ladder for the first time - I assume this has been discussed at length - but Scarf DarmG+TeleBro+TornT is a terrifying core. All have U-Turn(counting Teleport) to pivot around and maintain momentum, 2 of them have regenerator, TornT can defog for Scarf Darm which will blow holes through teams, TornT is lowkey capable of cleaning up a little at the end given how much Darm dents things, knock-off support is great, the synergy between Bro and Darm, it's really fantastic.

edit:
How viable is U-Turn/EQ/Stealth Rock Gliscor compared to Lando-T? I see Gliscor is high in the rankings but idk what sets are viable in this meta
 
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Have we tried suspecting zamazenta in the national dex ou? It doesn't seem like it would be too overwhelming with galarian darmanitan and all the other counters running around. And yes it could definitely wall a lot of them but there are a lot of sacred sword users that are somewhat viable in national dex ou and may bring viability back to pokemon like keldeo and terrakion.
Zamazenta Hero or Crowned?
Crown is a maybe, but a maybe that favors no, and Hero is definitely a now.
Kyurem-B before was OU because of multiple different problems.
Zamazenta just sucks in Ubers/AG because it’s outshined by other Pokemon in the tier, and not because it’s unworthy of Ubers.
To put into perspective, you would be letting in a Fighting/Steel type with an uninvested 325/(489 after defense boost)/326 bulk, base 130 Atk and 128 Spe, having access to 2 extremely powerful stabs and pretty decent coverage to hit Ghosts and Bulk Waters, at the cost of an item.
Also, how would you really stop it before it kills a huge chunk of your team?
That Steel typing+Amazing bulk makes it hard to kill, especially given it’s speed tier.
If you managed to outspeed and survive a Close Combat/Behemoth Bash, you won’t have that much luck OHKOing.
Hell, if you have a bulky enough Pokemon Like Tangrowth, what are you really going to do?
 
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