Metagame National Dex Metagame Discussion

[sealoo]

^ i dont think that team had a bad kyurem mu necessarily, at least vs the more standard set (SubRoost). My primary line for it was teleporting with slowking (takes about 40ish) into scale chomp with dice + also had zama to come in a few times in the back, but that plan got blown up by a modest ebelt set which has many shortcomings vs other things which is why it isnt the standard -- thats just tournament innovation cant be too mad about it.

I dont really like kyurem, i think it demands quite specific prep from bulkier teams because it is very difficult to limit its entry on balance staples that kinda just need to be used in order to deal with the rest of the meta (glisc / pex / alo / whip knock ferro) while requiring very little skill to use (this is immaterial but just more of a qualm of mine; it is really difficult compared to other balance breakers ala sd oger / dd z nite to "outplay" a kyurem with balance vs an opponent of roughly equal skill)

However, I think kyurem is a fine presence all things considered despite my personal distaste from a more objective lens, and this is coming from someone who has definitely played vs more kyurems in tournament than anyone else, as keeping these balance teams honest feels like a healthy trade overall for an otherwise incredibly strong archetype

--

Kyurem discussion aside, I think the meta is still in a pretty balanced state currently and have enjoyed playing / building in PL & FL

 

[Genjaja]

As the pioneer of the metagame discussion who revives this thread. I believe everything 1yr has said is true Volc sets are completely broken dnite and pex being the only mons who can beat it and even then volc can 1v1 them. The negatives impact of what ghold does far outways the good. Kyurem isn’t broken however it is a very punishing Mon.

Sorry to my peers who actually know me. I had a horrid couple of days so I’ve been on vacation chilling.

Polaro will win last chance and we will win Circuit.

 

[Comett7778]

Volc is most definitely ban worthy. Sub swarm is just stupid and negates most typical volc counters. Hell I’ve broken a Heatran with sub swarm before. And its other sets are cheesy matchup fishes, they’re not broken but they add nothing valuable to the tier in my eyes.

Also if volc is banned then maybe deo-s could be resuspected which is what I really want

 

[FirstlyMe]

Volc is most definitely ban worthy. Sub swarm is just stupid and negates most typical volc counters. Hell I’ve broken a Heatran with sub swarm before. And its other sets are cheesy matchup fishes, they’re not broken but they add nothing valuable to the tier in my eyes.

Also if volc is banned then maybe deo-s could be resuspected which is what I really want

Volc’s been in some hot water for a while now

Ngl I can see subswarm’s lack of coverage making it more widely accepted as not broken in the future.
Am I saying it’s fine in the tier?
No but also kinda yes. I feel pretty neutrally about Volc. I just spam power gem Tran and scarf shifu tho so maybe that’s why…..

But for subswarm in particular, power gem Tran, roost dnite and scarf shifu as long as the Volc hasn’t set up too much are fine checks.

But then, look at this calc:
+2 252 SpA Swarm Volcarona Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 678-798 (94.9 - 111.7%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

I am slightly leaning towards thinking It’s Ban worthy.

To me Volc has always felt like a “team checker” on ladder alongside the likes of weather and the late dragapult, like it makes sure your team can deal with it, if your team get’s 6-0’d by Volc 9 times out of 10 then it is a bad team (against volcarona in particular at least).
Pult’s set guessing game and similar substitute shenanigans was annoying as fuck and I wanted it gone from the tier but I think volc’s kinda fine.
Especially since volc’s sets are pretty similar other than coverage. It’s not a Woger situation where it’s like cudgel then whatever 3 moves you want or a pult situation where you can be specs, wisp/twave + hex, dd, band, etc.
Few may run psychic, few may run subswarem, few may run standard qd/fire stab/Giga drain/hp ground.
But 2 moves are always locked in and that gives more than enough of a rough idea on what to do there (psychic is kinda underwhelming and is barely real).


Off topic here but fun fact: Volc get’s u turn. So I got the bright idea of making an Offesnive pivot set. Am I cooking with this?

 

[Toxic Ariados]

I really don't think Volcarona is banworthy in the slightest. People seem to exaggerate the effectiveness of Z sets. Now, I am personally a huge Boots Volcarona enjoyer so feel free to take this with a grain of salt. They are certainly strong, don't get me wrong on that, but those Z sets that are apparently all the rage have such a huge weakness to hazards. You have to dedicate a good amount of your team to hazard removal to hopefully keep Stealth Rocks off for long enough so that Volcarona can come in without taking that agonizing 50+%. And with Gholdengo in the format, hazards are harder to keep off than ever before. Even Terapagos, the best spinner in the format, will end up having to trade with Gholdengo and lose it's Tera Shell which allows it to get revenge killed much more easily. Other spinners like Tusk and Treads are at risk of being mindgamed by Gholdengo, creating scenarios which won't always ensure that hazards come off of their side.

I feel like people also forget that Swarm Volcarona drains its HP to get into range. Sure you'll probably take an opponent down with you, but now you are extremely open to priority moves, being at like 25% of your original health. Even with it's sheer firepower, a Volcarona running only 2 STAB attacks can get messed up by so many popular things right now. to name a few. Odds are you won't break past a full HP Heatran or a Sp.Def Moltres mashing Hurricane on you. It feels like this set relies on pristine conditions to actually achieve the amount of destruction people are saying it can. You have to assume hazards are not on your side, found an enemy you can Substitute and Quiver Dance on (sometimes more than once), and that the opponent doesn't have anything that can take both of Volcarona's moves. Even after you take an opponent out with your Swarm boosted Z-Move, you are left extremely open to any form of priority due to being in Swarm range. Z Volcarona will probably take down one enemy Pokemon before being threatened by some form of priority or Scarf user due to it's low health.

Sub Swarm Volcarona is really more deadly in a vacuum than it is in practice. It's still strong but you would need perfect conditions to realistically achieve the destruction that some people are describing. You are basically saying that the Volcarona will have hazards off 100% of the time, find an enemy where it can safely Substitute and set up on, and furthermore, drain it's HP down to less than 33% and not be revenge killed by the next Pokemon coming in. There's just too many variables to consider in a real match, which is why I don't think it's a broken Pokemon (and why I usually stick to classic Heavy Duty Boots sets).

 

[CappyThePulpy]

Regarding subswarm Z volcarona:

I cannot even begin to fathom the “weak to hazards” argument. Y’all know zardY is also weak to hazards right? And that thing doesnt really have problems coming in more than once a game. The combination of tusk/terapagos + hatterene can keep hazards off 95% of games, or, in games where hazards cannot truly be dealt with, sac their spinner to allow volcarona in once. If there are ways to bring in zardY multiple times, surely getting volcarona in once is doable for any half decent player.

Now for the “in a vacuum / ideal conditions” argument: if we assume a somewhat free quiver dance (bring volc in after you sac a mon, maybe your spinner), volc literally just has to sub through to swarm on pretty much anything. It also happens to outspeed its best threat, scarf shifu, at +1 and explode it with Z (no swarm). That spdef heatran should be in good health to stop it and should prey to hit magma storms. If you miss the first magma storm on a sub you are doomed, you dont break sub at +2. It also happens that the ideal mon you want to sac to bring volc in, great tusk, scares heatran away so you dont have to start the 1v1 at +0.

“It has to go low to trigger swarm”
Yeah, and what exactly is revenge killing it after? It outspeeds the tier’s most common scarfers (shifu and lele), may get a sub up to be safe from espeed, and sub is probably the best counter to the most common priority, sucker and thunderclap. Yes, without sub all of these things will kill you. Also bp will pick you off from low hp. And who tf runs aqua jet? Banded shifu?

Also forcing a trade or barely beating a mon is not bad. The fact that this thing is guaranteed to 1v1 an AV mola is insane. At that point, it doesnt really matter if you get any other kills. The fact that you either have to stack checks, which most often has you give one up, prevent the sub, so the other can kill (like av liquidation mola + dragonite) or run one of like 5 actual counters (3 of which are stall mons) is totally banworthy when you consider how easy it is for volcarona to run away with the game. This is not waterpon which blows sth up and gets revenge killed. Its revenge killing options are MUCH more limited and straight up dont work if you get behind a sub. Also remember that there is no “pick your counters” mechanic like it is with waterpon (prough vs superpower). This thing runs 1 moveset which beats pretty much everything, while you also have to account for bulky flame body, offensive hdb, lefties swarm, etc.

After 4 generations of volcarona, people should’ve realised that hazards are not much of an issue and a free quiver dance is quite likely to happen.

 

[Toxic Ariados]

I cannot even begin to fathom the “weak to hazards” argument. Y’all know zardY is also weak to hazards right? And that thing doesnt really have problems coming in more than once a game. The combination of tusk/terapagos + hatterene can keep hazards off 95% of games, or, in games where hazards cannot truly be dealt with, sac their spinner to allow volcarona in once. If there are ways to bring in zardY multiple times, surely getting volcarona in once is doable for any half decent player.

Any combination of X Magic Bouncer and Y Rapid Spinner already dedicates two slots on your team to hazard removal. That's already 1/3 of your team whose main purpose is to dispel hazards. That seems like a fair trade-off for running something that desperately needs rocks off the field. Even then it's not entirely foolproof. Stuff like Swords Dance Garchomp and Landorus can threaten out Hatterene and attempt to set rocks upon doing so. Terapagos might get its Tera Shell broken vs. against Gholdengo, and even after a spin it can be threatened by common Scarfers that don't let Volcarona in to begin with like Urshifu or Psyshock Lele. Tusk and Treads also have to play mindgames with Gholdengo, and get completely screwed up if the Gholdengo is running Air Balloon. Tusk also explodes if any Special Attacker sneezes on it, which significantly limits its chances to enter the field.

I don't really like the Charizard Y comparison because Zard Y has so much more immediate firepower than Volcarona. Zard can afford to take Stealth Rock if in turn, it vaporizes something on the spot with Weather Ball. Volcarona doesn't have that liberty as it needs to set up and possibly get a Substitute off, which gives the opponent a few extra turns to react to its presence. An unboosted Volcarona at 50% is not nearly as threatening as a Charizard Y at similar HP planning on eradicating you with a 100 BP Sun Boosted Weather Ball.

Now for the “in a vacuum / ideal conditions” argument: if we assume a somewhat free quiver dance (bring volc in after you sac a mon, maybe your spinner), volc literally just has to sub through to swarm on pretty much anything. It also happens to outspeed its best threat, scarf shifu, at +1 and explode it with Z (no swarm). That spdef heatran should be in good health to stop it and should prey to hit magma storms. If you miss the first magma storm on a sub you are doomed, you dont break sub at +2. It also happens that the ideal mon you want to sac to bring volc in, great tusk, scares heatran away so you dont have to start the 1v1 at +0.

Ok so lets say the Volcarona Quiver Dances on your Urshifu switch and blows it up with the Z. I personally think Urshifu is a fairly risky hard switch to Volcarona since it only has 60 Special Defense. Either way that's certainly unfortunate, but it just used up its Z move which means that it lost a lot of its strength. A +1 Volcarona should be nothing new to an experienced player. There are many Pokemon you can bring out to beat it now. Stuff that safely resist both attacks like Moltres and Dragonite can come in and defeat it soundly. Heatran should beat it a good amount of times, and does so outright if you are running Taunt over Toxic. Even if they do dodge a bunch of Magma Storms, they constantly drain their HP with Substitute spam. You realistically should win the duel, especially if they burnt their Z. +6 Volcarona doesn't even 2HKO Sp.Def Heatran with Swarm Bug Buzz. Stuff like Gliscor and Landorus can also come in and deal a hefty chunk to it with Earthquake. They take a lot of damage from Flamethrower but aren't terrible if they are your only options.

“It has to go low to trigger swarm”
Yeah, and what exactly is revenge killing it after? It outspeeds the tier’s most common scarfers (shifu and lele), may get a sub up to be safe from espeed, and sub is probably the best counter to the most common priority, sucker and thunderclap. Yes, without sub all of these things will kill you. Also bp will pick you off from low hp. And who tf runs aqua jet? Banded shifu?

The HP drain is incredibly significant. To hit Swarm range you must be at 33% or less, and Substitute can't be clicked if you are under 25% of your HP. If an opponent is relentlessly attacking you as you Substitute to drop into Swarm range and take it out, you will likely go below 25% HP, allowing priority moves like Sucker Punch and Thunderclap to safely be clicked. A Dragonite using Extreme Speed and a Scizor using Bullet Punch can simply come in and take a weakened Volcarona down without worry. As for Aqua Jet users, there aren't many strong ones but two common ones I can think of are Samurott-H and Choice Band Urshifu. There's also AV Alomomola with Aqua Jet but that feels like a bit of a cope set.

Also forcing a trade or barely beating a mon is not bad. The fact that this thing is guaranteed to 1v1 an AV mola is insane. At that point, it doesnt really matter if you get any other kills. The fact that you either have to stack checks, which most often has you give one up, prevent the sub, so the other can kill (like av liquidation mola + dragonite) or run one of like 5 actual counters (3 of which are stall mons) is totally banworthy when you consider how easy it is for volcarona to run away with the game. This is not waterpon which blows sth up and gets revenge killed. Its revenge killing options are MUCH more limited and straight up dont work if you get behind a sub. Also remember that there is no “pick your counters” mechanic like it is with waterpon (prough vs superpower). This thing runs 1 moveset which beats pretty much everything, while you also have to account for bulky flame body, offensive hdb, lefties swarm, etc.

Forcing a trade is not bad at all, stuff like SD Garchomp and Dragon Dance Z Dragonite do this too. It's just that I find people acting like Volcarona is this unstoppable Behe-Moth (pun definitely intended) that immediately 6-0s if it gets the slightest setup opportunity. Volcarona can totally run away with the game if given the chance but there's often a lot more nuance to it. People forget just how hard it is to safely position a Volcarona without Boots. Like you mentioned, you usually have to run at least two Pokemon dedicated to hazard removal. Then after that you have to set up and drag your HP down to a third of its original amount to get that Swarm boost. You also straight up fold to multihit users. It takes a hefty price to actually achieve these Swarm boosted Z calcs, and even after that there are still many Pokemon that can threaten to KO it, like Moltres and Heatran. A lot of my teams that are weak to Sub Swarm Volcarona in theory don't struggle with it that badly, mostly due to the fact that I try my hardest to never let it get a truly safe chance to set up.

Hazards are definitely a huge chain weighing Volcarona down. Our anti-removal options have been evolving just as much as our removal options. If that wasn't the case, then Volcarona wouldn't be using Boots nearly as much. A Volcarona that doesn't run Boots requires significant support to get a good opportunity to Quiver Dance.

 

[Genesis9507]

I really don't think Volcarona is banworthy in the slightest. People seem to exaggerate the effectiveness of Z sets. Now, I am personally a huge Boots Volcarona enjoyer so feel free to take this with a grain of salt. They are certainly strong, don't get me wrong on that, but those Z sets that are apparently all the rage have such a huge weakness to hazards. You have to dedicate a good amount of your team to hazard removal to hopefully keep Stealth Rocks off for long enough so that Volcarona can come in without taking that agonizing 50+%. And with Gholdengo in the format, hazards are harder to keep off than ever before. Even Terapagos, the best spinner in the format, will end up having to trade with Gholdengo and lose it's Tera Shell which allows it to get revenge killed much more easily. Other spinners like Tusk and Treads are at risk of being mindgamed by Gholdengo, creating scenarios which won't always ensure that hazards come off of their side.

Thing is with bug z volcarona is despite it being exclusively fitted on HO or offense teams, its still a heavily threatening cheese that requires unnecessary amounts of attention in the builder with an already threat overloaded tier. These archetypes are usually able to prevent rocks through their natural ability to out-tempo anything that is not HO and paired with a combination of deterents such as taunt lando, mega diancie, hatterene, taunt koko (screens) and terapagos, so the majority of games volc is not restricted by rocks.

I feel like people also forget that Swarm Volcarona drains its HP to get into range. Sure you'll probably take an opponent down with you, but now you are extremely open to priority moves, being at like 25% of your original health. Even with it's sheer firepower, a Volcarona running only 2 STAB attacks can get messed up by so many popular things right now. to name a few. Odds are you won't break past a full HP Heatran or a Sp.Def Moltres mashing Hurricane on you. It feels like this set relies on pristine conditions to actually achieve the amount of destruction people are saying it can. You have to assume hazards are not on your side, found an enemy you can Substitute and Quiver Dance on (sometimes more than once), and that the opponent doesn't have anything that can take both of Volcarona's moves. Even after you take an opponent out with your Swarm boosted Z-Move, you are left extremely open to any form of priority due to being in Swarm range. Z Volcarona will probably take down one enemy Pokemon before being threatened by some form of priority or Scarf user due to it's low health.

While priority moves are good answers to sub swarm sets they aren't seen in majority of teams. The most common prio moves being sucker punch and thunderclap, volc can still outplay as it can usually get into swarm range at 26% so that is not a guaranteed out against volc. Prio such as jet shifu and espeed dnite aren't used on their most common sets and other prio such as weav and msciz fall short of ko-ing while in swarm range. Even bug z volc's biggest counters, heatran and moltres, are forced to run taunt, roar, brave bird or hurricane to not lose 1v1. Pex can also be beaten through sequencing correct 50/50s.

Sub Swarm Volcarona is really more deadly in a vacuum than it is in practice. It's still strong but you would need perfect conditions to realistically achieve the destruction that some people are describing. You are basically saying that the Volcarona will have hazards off 100% of the time, find an enemy where it can safely Substitute and set up on, and furthermore, drain it's HP down to less than 33% and not be revenge killed by the next Pokemon coming in. There's just too many variables to consider in a real match, which is why I don't think it's a broken Pokemon (and why I usually stick to classic Heavy Duty Boots sets).

I heavily disagree with volc being more deadly in a vacuum than in practice. I think the meta is currently designed to heavily respect this cheese leading to overprep similar with moon and slotting fairies. Also HO in general is a riskier load than BO or balance which is why its not commonly seen in practice but something to still respect. Both the overprep and HO contribute to bug z volc's absense in practice. Saying this there are a number of volc sets/techs that go overlooked in the builder thanks to bug z such as hp rock/ground 3a boots (heatran and moltres), bulky volc (dnite,av alo, garchomp etc), psychic z (pex, clod), lefties swarm (heatran and pex) all being able to fish games such as your ssnl game vs memphisdepay.

Overall just a big nuisance in the builder due to the sheer amount of things u already have to respect in nd.

 

[Toxic Ariados]

Thing is with bug z volcarona is despite it being exclusively fitted on HO or offense teams, its still a heavily threatening cheese that requires unnecessary amounts of attention in the builder with an already threat overloaded tier. These archetypes are usually able to prevent rocks through their natural ability to out-tempo anything that is not HO and paired with a combination of deterents such as taunt lando, mega diancie, hatterene, taunt koko (screens) and terapagos, so the majority of games volc is not restricted by rocks.

While priority moves are good answers to sub swarm sets they aren't seen in majority of teams. The most common prio moves being sucker punch and thunderclap, volc can still outplay as it can usually get into swarm range at 26% so that is not a guaranteed out against volc. Prio such as jet shifu and espeed dnite aren't used on their most common sets and other prio such as weav and msciz fall short of ko-ing while in swarm range. Even bug z volc's biggest counters, heatran and moltres, are forced to run taunt, roar, brave bird or hurricane to not lose 1v1. Pex can also be beaten through sequencing correct 50/50s.

I heavily disagree with volc being more deadly in a vacuum than in practice. I think the meta is currently designed to heavily respect this cheese leading to overprep similar with moon and slotting fairies. Also HO in general is a riskier load than BO or balance which is why its not commonly seen in practice but something to still respect. Both the overprep and HO contribute to bug z volc's absense in practice. Saying this there are a number of volc sets/techs that go overlooked in the builder thanks to bug z such as hp rock/ground 3a boots (heatran and moltres), bulky volc (dnite,av alo, garchomp etc), psychic z (pex, clod), lefties swarm (heatran and pex) all being able to fish games such as your ssnl game vs memphisdepay.

Overall just a big nuisance in the builder due to the sheer amount of things u already have to respect in nd.

I do feel as though that cheesing stuff is just the nature of HO as a whole. Bug Z Volcarona is at its core, another HO cheese set. It does feel similar to stuff like Substitute Z Dragonite, just way more volatile. It can decimate certain team structures and fall flat into a lot of others. Though despite this, it doesn't feel nearly as destructive as Roaring Moon, who was another common face on many HO teams. Moon could blast past its most common checks since it had way more coverage than Volcarona did. While it still did hate constant hazards, Moon was also way harder to prod with rocks alone, and thus could be found on way more teams than Volcarona. I would even say that Volcarona's volatility leads to its downfall. Its hazard weakness and lack of coverage options with Substitute and Quiver Dance lead to it being used less than what you would expect. Which leads to the Z set to be found on primarily on HO, one of the most reckless archetypes. This explains why it isn't commonly used in practice like you said, it's hard to justify using it on things outside of HO. The meta is prepared for it, but I wouldn't say people are overpreparing. It doesn't feel like the Moon era where you would run into a Tapu Fini or Phys. Def. Unaware Clef every 3 games. Z Volcarona is strong, but it's not very reliable. Volcarona also has way more natural checks that can fall into many different team styles. You're right, Volcarona is just something you have to respect and give a bit of prep for, but I don't think that means it has to go. There are a good amount of sets that it can run, but a good team shouldn't outright lose if you get caught by a Hidden Power Ground or Rock. They should have a few soft checks to scare Volcarona out of the field.

On a side note, maybe I'm a bit biased for this, but I always thought that Moltres and defensive Heatran should always, if not often run Hurricane and Taunt respectively, and not just for Volcarona. I think that not running Hurricane on the former is actively gimping yourself, you allow Water Types like non-AV Alomomola and Slowbro in way more easily, and worst of all, Ogerpon Wellspring. Mono-Fire coverage can be actively exploited by a lot of things and Hurricane hits the guys listed above for significant damage and outright downs Wellspring. Brave Bird compromises your defenses and is frankly giga cope I can't lie. Taunt is also my go-to 4th move on most of my Heatrans (Magma, Rocks, and Earth Power being the other 3) since it allows you to actually beat some of the stuff you snare with Magma Storm like Slowking-G, Slowbro, and even Blissey at times.