Nature Swap [Talonflame unbanned!]

[Braviarca]

Also, isn't Mega Abomasnow now a physical/special threat now that Timid / Jolly nature now gives it base 132 Speed? It IS one-sided for moves depending on the nature, but it's still very quick.

 

[Braviarca]

You forget that the ways of dealing with Chansey are incredibly boring, which makes it unhealthy and deters people.

Oh... sorry about that.

 

[Anna says hi]

Please use the "edit" button instead of double posting.

 

[Pipotchi]

The way I see it, Chansey changes the game every time it switches in. In almost all situations it completely stops the opponents momentum and at its WORST gives you a blanket response to all offense thanks to its ability to never be ohkod by a non-boosted attack. It is also a pokemon that beats almost every rapid spinner, since almost all spinners cannot fit the moveslots to remove hazards, stallbreak chansey and also recover their hp through multiple seismic tosses (and doing so by a comfortable enough margin to not be overthrown by an unlucky paralysis). These traits all make Chansey an excellent and reliable stealth rock setter, perhaps the best in the tier. Its not just a case of Chansey standing still, taking punches from 5 guys at once while not doing nothing in response- it needs a single turn to be proactive and provide utility to your team with SR and it finds millions of opportunities to do so every game. Yes it is a formidable wall that can be broken with a fair amount of effort, but it is also a utility pokemon that does pressure your opponent by keeping hazards up, not to mention forcing your opponent to switch through said hazards every time it switches into one of their offensive pokemon that cant beat it.

tldr; Chansey is not a pokemon that applies no pressure to the opponents team, it applies a lot of pressure by being such a good stealth rock setter also and forces the opponent to play a large portion of the game under rocks.


Unrelated, heres some new sets that I really like:

SpD Kyurem-B

Kyurem-Black @ Leftovers
Ability: Teravolt
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power
- Draco Meteor

This Kyurem is placing its unused 170 attack stat into its special defense to become a great special sponge. Simply investing into HP and Special Attack grants it enough special bulk to eat up incredibly powerful neutral attacks and even strong super-effective attacks:

252 SpA Sheer Force Mega Camerupt Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Kyurem-B: 145-172 (31.9 - 37.8%) -- 94.5% chance to 3HKO

252 SpA Magnezone Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Kyurem-B: 152-180 (33.4 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

It can roost off the vast majority of special moves, while being no slouch offensively with a fully invested 120 SpA (i probly dont need to show calcs on this). Naturally it cant beat Chansey and also has a weak physical defensive typing (especially with a lot of physical fairies in the meta), but it can still be a great asset to your team.

Fast Mega Venu

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 176 Def / 80 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Earthquake
- Sleep Powder
- Synthesis
- Power Whip

This Venusaur is an incredibly speedy wall that still retains excellent defenses. It forces slower pokemon to deal with its Sleep Powder, which includes all positive natured base 100s and below, while tanking hits for the team and hitting back with 2 high BP attacks of its own. Venusaur is really useful in this meta to deal with Azumarill, and can be a good partner to Chansey because it eats Knock Off and fighting types in general, and can appreciate getting status removed by Heal Bell.

Physdef Empoleon

Empoleon @ Shuca Berry
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Grass Knot
- Scald
- Aqua Jet / Ice Beam

Defensive Empoleon has been an amazing mon for me recently. It is one of the few hard responses to Cloyster, not being 2hkod by +2 Rock Blast, and can happily kill it with Grass Knot. Empoleon often has a good lead matchup thanks to hitting fast Rock and Ground types super effectively, while being able to bypass their 2nd attack thanks to Sturdy with either a Scald burn or Aqua Jet. Aqua Jet also finishes off a Cloyster after its sash, with Ice Shard only doing 10% to you at +2. Shuca Empoleon is great because it makes Ground types stay in and get destroyed by a Scald, and Empoleon can also make for an Azumarill check as long as it does not get hit by a banded Superpower.

Aqua Jet might seem weak but Im justifying its usefulness thanks to calcs like this:

0- Atk Empoleon Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Steelix: 188-224 (64.6 - 76.9%)
0- Atk Empoleon Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Camerupt: 136-168 (48.3 - 59.7%)
0- Atk Empoleon Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 4- Def Aggron: 134-158 (47.6 - 56.2%)

It actually will revenge or finish off many high speed threats or Sturdy leads, but you could make this Ice Beam or Roar also. Hope someone can try some of these out :T

 

[pipasonze]

Voting to Ban Chansey.
Obviously it is an extremely bulky pokemon with a single type weakness, an ability that protects it from status and it has a great support movepool.
As others have stated, Chansey has an easy time switching in on the majority of the metagame and forcing the opposing pokemon out as they have no means of breaking the pink blob. Chansey can then use the free turns from the switches it forces to support the team with Stealth Rock (which it does very well because of the free turns it creates and the fact that it beats most spinners/defoggers) or Heal Bell, recover any health it may have lost due to hazards or weak attacks (for example, a Tough Claws-boosted Hammer Arm from Mega Metagross is considered a weak attack in this situation), or cripple a switch-in with Seismic Toss or Toxic.
There is a limited number of viable pokemon that can switch in and beat Chansey 1v1. But even having one or multiple of these pokemon doesn't guarantee that your team won't have problems with it. Every pokemon you have that Chansey walls is a liability while Chansey is alive, as it can switch in on any of those pokemon and heal up, ready to come in again later.
Using Chansey involves low risk and high reward, and I think its influence on the metagame is negative.

reqs

http://imgur.com/a/SUQLf

 

[calvinball]

You forget that the ways of dealing with Chansey are incredibly boring, which makes it unhealthy and deters people.

That's if you assume countering stall is boring, which is rather unfair to stall players. We all have our preferred styles, so you can't just call stall and stall-countering boring. Boosting moves and support options like Taunt and entry hazards aren't inherently boring. I like Hyper Offense myself, but even I can acknowledge that it's possible to enjoy creating and wielding a wall along with creating and wielding broadly applicable wallbreakers and stallbreakers.

Boring is when all power and choice is robbed from you, but a team that takes walls and stall Pokemon into account - not just Chansey, but stall in general - will have options against a wall and will be able to make choices.

 

[Jajoken]

So I've played three games of Nature Swap and every opponent had Togekiss.
I'd complain but my team also had Togekiss so it's good to know we're all hax-abusing scum here.

On a tangentially related topic, here's something that beats Togekiss pretty much all of the time and is just a great 'mon in general:

Heatran @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Lava Plume
- Stealth Rock
- Toxic
- Taunt
"But Jajoken, that's literally just the standard OU set right now!"
This is true, but I think people can get so caught up with new toys and quirky gimmicks that they forget that sometimes the old-standbys are not only still good, but sometimes, they're better. Heatran has a completely useless base 90 Atk, and considering its most popular set right now is Timid max Spe/max HP, you can literally just run the same thing in NS and outspeed a surprising amount of Pokemon for a tank.

Here are some other OU Pokemon that can get away with their standard sets and reap the rewards:

Bold Amoonguss: People forget this 'shroom has base 85 Atk and only base 70 Def. Straight upgrade in tanking prowess.
Adamant Azumarill: Yeah, you can min-max your Huge Power gains by stealing from Def or Sp. Def, but part of Azu's allure is being decently bulky for something so strong. Either option is good but Adamant Azu is less of a glass cannon while still gaining base 10 Atk, which means a lot with Huge Power.
Jolly Kyurem-B: The Band set is a lot less popular this generation for obvious reasons (Fairy hell), but with Jolly you actually have a good speed tier (for OU, at least, things are weird in NS). Modest Specs is obviously a lot better too, but I think people have found that out.
Impish Landorus-T: Its defensive prowess relies much more on Intimidate than its actual stats, as base 90 Def isn't really the best. Base 105 is a bit better.
Timid Magnezone: Base 70 still isn't fast, but you weren't using that Atk anyway. For the record, this is the same Spe Magneton hits, so Choice Scarf Magnezone is now a straight-up better choice than Magneton. There was a debate in the OU Viability Thread recently about this, but NS settles firmly on the side of 'zone.
Timid Thundurus: Base 115 Speed helps you catch up to the speed creep this meta brings,
Jolly Tyranitar: Base 95 Spe is actually a significant upgrade, so the Scarf set becomes an even more reliable trapper and revenge killer.
Timid Volcanion: Base 110 Spe is very solid for a Specs wallbreaker.
Most common Natures on Mega Altaria: MAlt runs a ton of different natures in standard, mostly swapping around Atk, SpA and Def. Because all three stats are identical, you can run of those natures any with no change. Meanwhile, Jolly is a straight upgrade.
Timid Thundurus-T: Base 105 is a bit better than 101...Thundurus-I is still better, though.
Jolly Mega Garchomp: Already fairly well known, but yeah, base 120 Spe is nice.
Timid Mega Latios: Already known as well. Timid regular Latios sucks now, so a useful Mega is welcome.
Jirachi/Mew/Manaphy/Victini: They were good in OU and they're good in Nature Swap. Run them however you please, without worrying about losing stats!

 

[Saywhaat]

I like the Phys-Def-Empoleon-Set from above.

Also, for this:

Fighting-types: There are plenty of them in the OU metagame. Keldeo, Terrakion, Mega Heracross, and Breloom are all Pokemon that hit Chansey for super effective damage on her weaker Defense stat.

Since Chansey now avoids the 2HKO from those, they can't switch into any status move or otherwise Chansey can just comfortably stall them out, either by toxic-stalling them to death or by using softboiled until parahax strikes to get a free S-Toss. They might be able to be Checks to Chansey, but since it is a pivot and switching out is basically its main job anyways, forcing it out after a teammate died isn't really as effective as with offensive powerhouses. Think about ns-Chansey not the way you think about OU-Chansey but more like how you think about Tornadus-Therian. Having a mon that can check Tornadus-T, but is unable to switch into it will still mean you have a good amount of trouble coming for you since Tornadus-T can switch into so many things and render them useless simply by being in the opponents team. Chansey is basically the same, rendering pretty much any offensive mon useless simply by existing.

Wallbreakers: Due to Chansey's lack of Leftovers, wallbreakers wear her down easily. For example, Knock Off Landorus-T 2HKOes Chansey after Knocking Off her Eviolite, specially based Kyurem-B often 2HKOes Chansey with a Specs Ice Beam, Mega Gardevoir can Taunt Chansey and 3HKO her with Psyshock/Return, and Taunt Gengar walls Chansey completely.

Ns-Chansey has more than 10% more physical bulk than eviolite-OU-Chansey AFTER losing its eviolite. So anything that can't kill eviolite-Chansey in OU can't even kill ns-Chansey after Knock Off. Taunt provides a teammate a free switch-in, thus making Chansey even more effective in its role as a pivot.

Pokemon with Knock Off: As Chansey relies heavily on Eviolite to tank attacks, she loses much of her tanking ability if hit by a Knock Off from the likes of Conkeldurr, Bisharp, and Tornadus-T.

Same as above.

Pokemon with Taunt: If Chansey is hit by Taunt from a Pokemon such as Gengar, Talonflame, or Gliscor, she will be unable to do much, and the opponent can subsequently use her as setup bait.

Same as above above.

Status Avoiding

: Chansey cannot spread status to Pokemon behind a Substitute, so sweepers such as Substitute + Calm Mind Keldeo can use the move to gain a free turn of setup. Furthermore, if the Pokemon has a maximum HP of 404 or higher, Seismic Toss will fail to break the Substitute in one hit. Similar to Substitute, Lum Berry provides Pokemon with protection from Chansey's attempts to status them. Dragonite, for example, enjoys Lum Berry to protect itself from a single Toxic or Thunder Wave.

Setup Sweepers: Pokemon that do not mind Toxic or Thunder Wave, such as Swords Dance Gliscor, Calm Mind Clefable, Swords Dance Mega Scizor, Calm Mind Mega Sableye, and Swords Dance Bisharp, can all use Chansey as setup bait.

You must not forget that the amount of boosts that is needed to break through Chansey is insane now. Honestly not even +4-Keldeo is guaranteed to beat Chansey, which means it is already forced to boost so often that it will be in S-Tosses KO-Range when it can finally deal damage.

So basically everything is either a very very soft check to Chansey or providing a free switch for a teammate, but so far nothing bar RestTalk-Toxic-Trapnich has been able to actually hinder Chansey from rendering any offensive mon in your team almost useless as long as Chansey is alive. Many Chansey-based teams basically look like this: 5 absurdly powerful offense mons + Chansey. Trying to check one of the offensive mons like Cloyster and Azu if you can't really counter them? They switch to Chansey. Trying to stallbreak Chansey? The offensive mon comes back on the taunt and you have to sacrifice something else again just to repeat the cycle.

 

[Felis]

So I went through a couple of tiers and listed a few interesting ways a few mons might be able to be used in this meta. I of course haven't covered everything every mon can do in these two tiers but I hope this might help a little in terms of ideas for teambuilding. I also intend to go through the rest of the tiers in time. I also apologize if I tread over things others have already discussed.

OU

Special Attack Ferrothorn- Either take atk and spa and switch or, for more power, switch it’s defense and sp atk, but give it iron defense/leech seed/Giga drain/Flash Cannon. Remember that if you switch around it’s defense, it becomes weak to mach punch, and other strong fighting moves as well.

Physical Charizard Y- Switch up atk and spa (159 Atk). With access to a decent physical movepool, it’s possible for Charizard Y to hit harder and more accurately than before due to Flare Blitz. It also has access to aerial ace if you want to hit with a flying move. He also gets Earthquake.

Defensive Clefable- Switch up spa and def (95 Def)- Use unaware in order to make it more bulky. However, it can still be 2hko’d by a few mons in the meta, so beware.

Physical Gengar- Switch up atk and spa (130 Attack)- Physical Gengar is a lot of fun. He has access to drain punch for recovery, shadow punch, poison jab, fire punch, ice punch, sucker punch etc. He has a decent physical movepool and a not terrible speed base stat. However, he has a tendency to be outsped in this meta.

Physical Keldeo- By switching up its Attack and Special Attack (129 Attack), Keldeo becomes a physical wall breaker. He has access to close combat, swords dance, aqua tail, and other moves as well. Keldeo has already been proven to be an effective mon to have in a team.

Physical Latios/Latios-M- By switching up its attack and spA, you give it access to 130 Atk in non mega, and a blistering 160 atk in mega form. It has access to dragon dance to become even stronger, and it has access to recover, and it has a decent physical movepool to take advantage of. However, it does take up a coveted mega slot.

SpA M-Lopunny- Switching up its Attack and Special Attack gives it access to 136 special attack, in a decent speed tier. It has access to Hyper Voice, Focus Blast, and a host of other special moves. It has decent special coverage, but it’s fake out loses power due to the switcharoo (see what I did there) of its attack and special attack. However, it still has access to Scrappy, which makes it a good mon for ghost types, although the ghost type is not yet super common in this meta.

Speedy Pinsir Mega- By switching up M-Pinsir’s Defense and Speed, its speed base stat total becomes 120. This puts it into a better position to sweep after using swords dance. I tend to use facade with him so I can surprise my enemies with a very powerful move. It tends to wall break quite easily, and it has access to knock off to murder ghost and psychic types, as well as getting rid of eviolite from pesky walls. It also has access to close combat and quick attack, and thus Pinsir-Mega with it’s new speed stat of 120 becomes far more frightening to face. Also Remember that Pinsir-Mega has aerilate, thus making him somewhat terrifying.

Sp Defense M-Slowbro- Switch up SpA and Spd- By switching up its spA and sp def, you give slowbro a better ability to wall with its newfound 130 Sp Def stat. It also finds it easier to set up than before with calm mind, although you lose some power this way. It cannot be hit by a critical hit, so it can become a problem for your enemies rather quickly. It also has access to slack off, but remember how vulnerable Mega Slowbro can be to status if not properly prepared.

Speedy Tyranitar- Switch up speed and def- Slapping on a choice scarf to this speedy tyranitar gives it a amazing speed tier of 165. This enables it to hit hard and fast. However, I find it somewhat lacking in this meta, which is probably due to Chansey. We’ll see if it becomes more effective once Chansey is gone.

Faster M-Venusaur- Switching up its Speed and Attack gives Mega-Venu access to 100 speed, making it better able to sweep if that’s the route you wish to take. However, it might still be more effective as a wall.

Speedy Volcanion- Volcanion has always wanted a better speed tier, and in this meta it becomes possible to do a 110/120 Speed tier with choice specs. With access to Steam Eruption and Fire Blast as well as earth power and other coverage moves, volcanion becomes scary strong and fast in this meta. It’s my opinion it can become one of the best walbreakers in the entire meta, but don’t count on it breaking Chansey or Blissey, as unfortunately they are both still too bulky to be anything more than at most a 3hko.

Spa Weavile- When it’s Attack gets switched with it’s Special Attack, all of a sudden weavile becomes a dangerous special attacker. It has access to a decent special movepool, and even has access to calm mind or nasty plot if you’re brave or timely enough. However, it loses ice shard/fake out/ knock off power. This might reduce its role, I’m not quite sure.

Defensive Zapdos with Charge- This is a bit of a stretch, but it’s possible to switch Zapdos’ SpA with its defense and slap on the move Charge in order to make a more defensive Zapdos with a better ability to wall. Keep in mind that charge also makes electric moves stronger for a turn, so that might provide a advantage. However, charge is a lack-luster stat increaser, so I’m not convinced that Zapdos in this role would be effective.



UU

Defensive Roserade- Switch up speed and defense- Magical Leaf- Roserade has access to technician, which makes it’s moves stronger, but since this is a defensive set, it may not be as effective without its speed. It does have more survivability this way however. But it’s most likely still outclassed by Venusaur.

Defensive Snorlax- Defense and atk switch- With a switch of defense and attack, Snorlax’s defense becomes 110, which is equal to its sp def. With access to a great Health base stat total (160), Snorlax may prove to be an surprisingly effective wall. Give it curse and you might start seeing it laugh at fighting types. However, keep in mind it now has a very weak attack stat, so the switch might be more negative than you think. Think of this snorlax as more of a pseudo- Blissey. Without wish, heal bell, or really any of the cleric support Blissey can provide.

Special Attack Aerodactyl-M- Loses access to tough claws for the most part, but also loses its vulnerability to burn. You decide whether or not he’s worth it. Has a decent special movepool to take advantage of its newfound 135 SpA. It also has a good speed tier, but again, for the most part it loses access to it’s tough claws boost, so I’m not sure it’s worth it.

Special Attack, Speedy, or Specially Defensive Aggron Mega- Aggron can take it’s 230 defense stat and spread it to any of these stats above and surprise the crap out of people. But keep in mind that unless it’s speedy, it can be easily taken out by either a physical threat or a special threat. But I still believe Mega Aggron has a good place in this meta.

Speedy Blastoise-M- No drawbacks besides using a mega stone- Mega Blastoise now has a easier time sweeping due to a faster speed stat. With that it may become more effective at wall-breaking.

Pure Attack/Special Attack Cloyster- Defensive drawback, weaker to mach punch than before. But hits like a tank with 180 Atk/SpA- Attack is probably the best way to go here, as skill link is a nice ability.

Pure Attack/Special Attack Cobalion- Slight defensive drawback.

95 Speed Conkeldurr- Defensive drawback, Not enough speed to really take advantage.

90 Speed Crawdaunt- No drawback, but speed tier is still lacking, thus it’s defenses are still a weak point.

Special Attack/Attack Cresselia- Defensive drawback, probably better as a wall.

Special Attack Darmanitan- Extremely powerful Fire Blast without recoil, has a good special movepool, sheer force is very effective here.

Purely Defensive Donphan- Most likely outclassed by someone, probably forretress.

Attack Based Empoleon- Possibly not that effective, weak to burn, but decent typing.

Defensive Espeon- Surprisingly effective, has a good enough movepool and ability to pull off calm mind/morning sun role.

Defensive Florges- Decent Wall, but probably less frightening than 154 Special Attack Florges.

Specially Defensive Forretress- Good wall, has rapid spin/stealth rock- But not much in the way of recovery, unfortunately. Probably still more effective as just utility. But better at doing so with his special defense at 90.

Physical Gardevoir- Might possibly take someone by surprise, but weak to burn, and defense is still weak. Might be better as a physical wall.

Defensive Goodra- With its defense at 100, it’s possible that goodra might be able to tank better than before. Might have a better role in this metagame. Also consider switching up special defense and special attack/attack- Might be a very powerful attacker, but it’s speed tier is lacking in that capacity.

Speedy Gyarados- It’s speed stat can be switched with the special defense stat, making it’s speed 100. However, this is not a great speed stat in this meta, as a lot of pokes will be having their speed base stat higher than 100. So it might have a hard time fulfilling a speedy role. However, it does have access to dragon dance and moxie, which can turn it into a decent wincon.

Special Attack Haxorus- Honestly doesn’t have a lot to take advantage of here, as its special movepool is somewhat lacking. It has access to draco meteor, focus blast, dragon pulse, and of course, hidden power, but physical haxorus is superior due to dragon dance and a wider physical movepool.

105 Speed Hydreigon- Because the speed and attack stat are being switched here, Hydreigon doesn’t have a distinct disadvantage with the stat switch. Also, 105 speed is a decent speed tier, although it might still be slower than a lot of mons in this meta. However, with a decent spa of 125 and access to a decent special movepool, it might be able to find success as a special sweeper.

Speedy Lucario- It’s possible that in this meta Lucario can reach a decent speed tier of 110 or 115, depending on whether you want to go physical or special with it. Keep in mind that it still has frail defenses, but with a better speed tier and access to extremespeed as well as swords dance, it’s possible that Lucario can be more of a force to be reckoned with in this meta.

Special Machamp- Switching his Attack over to Special Attack- Special Machamp has proven to be very effective in teams I’ve used in this meta. It has access to No Guard, which makes Focus Blast always hit. He also has access to Vacuum Wave for priority, Fire Blast for coverage, and of course hidden power. Unfortunately, he does not have a huge amount of special coverage, and his speed is lacking. But, he is still a decent wall-breaker, and often surprises his enemy.

Speedy Metagross- Metagross can get access to 130 Speed by switching his defense around with his speed. This is obviously a very good speed tier, and in this meta, it serves metagross well. He has access to 135 atk, and as most of us are aware, he is often able to use that effectively. He also has access to Clear Body, which reduces the effectiveness of intimidate users against him to nil. However, remember that while Metagross has decent typing, by switching his defense around you are making him more frail than before. Thankfully, however, most people are still hesitant to hit Metagross with a physical move due to his steel typing, so there is still an advantage.

Special Attack Nidoking- (Switching up Attack with SpA) While 102 special attack is not amazing, with sheer force, all of a sudden Nidoking is a force to be reckoned with, even more so than before- Since he typically goes the special move route due to a better special movepool for sheer force, now with 102 special attack, Nidoking will hit a bit harder than before. I suggest going choice specs if you want to hit even harder. (NOTE: Nidoqueen can do the same thing, but with slightly less power and higher bulk. I recommend life orb due to having a higher bulk than Nidoking)

More Defensive Porygon2- Mr Porygon2 can have one of his defenses switched up with his spA, making him better able to utilize eviolite. I’m not quite sure which route would be better to go with Porygon2, either def or spdef- But in my opinion, this probably wouldn’t make much of a difference to shake him out of being UU in this meta. I’m sure however that he can still be utilized well.

Unaware Specially Defensive Quagsire- Quaggy can switch up his attack and sp def, making him better able to wall. However, he is probably still outclassed by Clefable in everything but type weaknesses. However, he does have access to recover, meaning he has easier recovery than unaware Clefable. He is, however, weak to status.

Physical Reuniclus- Surprisingly enough, Reuniclus has access to a decent physical movepool. He has access to drain punch, zen headbutt, and even superpower. It’s quite possible that Reuniclus might have a niche to fill as a physical attacker with 125 attack. As always, Reuniclus still has a weakness in his speed stat, but has decent bulk. However, he does not have access to bulk up like he does calm mind. He does have access to power-up punch though.

Physical Mega-Sceptile- Sceptile can get the attack he may or may not have always wanted in this meta, in being able to get access to 145 attack, which is a decent attack base stat in this meta. He has access to a decent physical movepool, as well as swords dance, so it is possible Sceptile can be a valuable mega to have in this meta.

Physical Sylveon- With access to curse and a possible 130/110 attack base stat and pixilate, it’s definitely possible for Sylveon to rise in this meta as a fearsome physical attacker. He has access to facade, return, double edge, wish for recovery, heal bell, and many other moves. It’s my opinion that Physical Sylveon can take advantage of its newfound attack stat and crush opponent’s dreams. (If you’re into dream-crushing)

Defensive Vaporeon- By switching up it’s special attack and defense, you may find that vaporeon has enough bulk to take on enemies easily. However, in a meta full of wallbreakers, you may find vaporeon outclassed. I’m not sure.

 

[Schpoonman]

I like the Phys-Def-Empoleon-Set from above.

Also, for this:

Since Chansey now avoids the 2HKO from those, they can't switch into any status move or otherwise Chansey can just comfortably stall them out, either by toxic-stalling them to death or by using softboiled until parahax strikes to get a free S-Toss. They might be able to be Checks to Chansey, but since it is a pivot and switching out is basically its main job anyways, forcing it out after a teammate died isn't really as effective as with offensive powerhouses. Think about ns-Chansey not the way you think about OU-Chansey but more like how you think about Tornadus-Therian. Having a mon that can check Tornadus-T, but is unable to switch into it will still mean you have a good amount of trouble coming for you since Tornadus-T can switch into so many things and render them useless simply by being in the opponents team. Chansey is basically the same, rendering pretty much any offensive mon useless simply by existing.




Ns-Chansey has more than 10% more physical bulk than eviolite-OU-Chansey AFTER losing its eviolite. So anything that can't kill eviolite-Chansey in OU can't even kill ns-Chansey after Knock Off. Taunt provides a teammate a free switch-in, thus making Chansey even more effective in its role as a pivot.


Same as above.


Same as above above.


You must not forget that the amount of boosts that is needed to break through Chansey is insane now. Honestly not even +4-Keldeo is guaranteed to beat Chansey, which means it is already forced to boost so often that it will be in S-Tosses KO-Range when it can finally deal damage.

So basically everything is either a very very soft check to Chansey or providing a free switch for a teammate, but so far nothing bar RestTalk-Toxic-Trapnich has been able to actually hinder Chansey from rendering any offensive mon in your team almost useless as long as Chansey is alive. Many Chansey-based teams basically look like this: 5 absurdly powerful offense mons + Chansey. Trying to check one of the offensive mons like Cloyster and Azu if you can't really counter them? They switch to Chansey. Trying to stallbreak Chansey? The offensive mon comes back on the taunt and you have to sacrifice something else again just to repeat the cycle.

I was actually going to comment on Timid RestTalkToxic (its only 3 moves, by the way) Trapinch. This is the epitome of centralization, far and away the worst I've ever seen in a metagame. Trapinch's other stats are so atrocious that it beats Chansey and Chansey alone. Any other Pokemon will at worst 2HKO with any STAB move. I would have swept the guy I played using this set with Serperior but Leaf Storm missed and he got a Toxic off before stalling with Clefable. Get rid of Chansey.

 

[Anna says hi]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/natureswap-411011571

One of the best battles I've had ever. This was incredibly close up until right before the end.

 

[Lemon Ginger]

I was actually going to comment on Timid RestTalkToxic (its only 3 moves, by the way) Trapinch. This is the epitome of centralization, far and away the worst I've ever seen in a metagame. Trapinch's other stats are so atrocious that it beats Chansey and Chansey alone. Any other Pokemon will at worst 2HKO with any STAB move. I would have swept the guy I played using this set with Serperior but Leaf Storm missed and he got a Toxic off before stalling with Clefable. Get rid of Chansey.

Yeah that was me. I use mimic as a fourth move. It doesn't get called by sleep talk and you can use it to copy one of Chaney's support moves like stealth Rock or heal bell.

But you weren't beating clef unless you had worry seed lol.

 

[thesecondbest]

HJK is an easy 2hko, 98% chance.

I'm sorry but how can you see a calc like this and think chansey is balanced? It has the possibility to live 2 HJKs from an A tier mega? It lives two banded outrages from kyurems?
And yes it has counters but stall has counters to those. Like mence and tang can check fighting types, while unawares check setup sweepers. chansey is not only crazy bulky, but it has a lot of utility in heal bell, rocks, wish, etc. its just crazy good. just because somethings counter it doesnt mean it isnt batshit insane

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

K now I think it's time to announce this.

With 15 ban votes and 4 no ban votes (78.94% pro ban), Chansey has been...

Banned!​

Tagging The Immortal for implementation.

Since Chansey is banned, the sample team will no longer be usable anymore. That's why we'd appreciate you guys if you are willing to share your teams for the samples.

 

[Elecktrochoko]

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 156 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 96 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Meteor Mash
- Zen Headbutt
- Hammer Arm
- Ice Punch
Metagross is the sweeper in this team. Since I swap his defense to his Speed, it can put a dent to the opponent. It is a good check against Landorus-T, since Metagross outspeeds it and can OHKO it with Ice Punch.

Shuckle @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 Spe
Naive Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Encore
- Toxic
- Knock Off
Shuckle is the premier lead in NS, I swear: inspired by nv's Shuckle, it has the best speed (I think) in the metagame. Use SR quickly before the opponent can attack you or use a set-up attack such as SD.

Regigigas @ Assault Vest
Ability: Slow Start
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 248 SpA / 8 Spe
Modest Nature
- Knock Off
- Thunderbolt
- Focus Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
As it suggests, it is a pivot to special attackers. Since it can't use Nature Power, I suggest HP Ice to nail Dragon-type.


Salamence @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 248 HP / 80 Def / 180 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Hydro Pump
- Toxic
- Defog
Salamence with its ability and the NS's metagame, it becomes a great defensive pokémon. The only attack is Hydro Pump, to counter Fire, Ground and Rock-types. Toxic to anyone who resist Hydro Pump.

Emboar @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Reckless
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Superpower
- Wild Charge
- Head Smash
With the Speed buff, Emboar becomes a fantastic revenge killer, since it has the power to 2HKO most of the metagame.

Tangrowth @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 244 HP / 212 Def / 48 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
- Leaf Storm
- Giga Drain
- Knock Off
- Leech Seed
Thanks for the Nature Swap, Tangrowth can pivot much better. It has the bulk and power to counter Water-types and Phys.ATK pokémons.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

Cloyster bringing you down? I've got just the thing for you!

Here are the three only counters to Cloyster that I've found!

Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Vacuum Wave
- Roost
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Ice]

With Vacuum Wave and solid defences Mega Scizor can switch in and stomach any one hit from Cloyster and OHKO back with Priority Vacuum Wave. Rock Blast is only a 2hko after rocks, even then Vacuum Wave easily OHKOs.

0+ SpA Technician Mega Scizor Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 252-298 (104.5 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Mega Scizor: 140-170 (40.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Mega Scizor: 66-78 (19.2 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO

Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Grass Knot
- Scald
- Defog
- Stealth Rock

Empoleon is another counter, Cloyster can't do a lot to it while Grass Knot easily OHKOs.

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 155-180 (41.6 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 115-135 (30.9 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Empoleon Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 442-522 (183.4 - 216.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Lax Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell

An unusual counter, Lax Blissey is very physically bulky while still retaining some offensive presence with Bolt-Beam threatening Gliscor, Landorus-T, Salamence, Diggersby and Cloyster. Probably a lot more that I'm simply forgetting.

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 335-405 (46.9 - 56.7%) -- approx. 12.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Blissey Thunderbolt vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 286-338 (118.6 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 170-210 (23.8 - 29.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Elecktrochoko]

Cloyster bringing you down? I've got just the thing for you!

Here are the three only counters to Cloyster that I've found!

View attachment 66668
Scizor @ Scizorite
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 HP / 56 Def / 200 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
- Vacuum Wave
- Roost
- Flash Cannon
- Hidden Power [Ice]

With Vacuum Wave and solid defences Mega Scizor can switch in and stomach any one hit from Cloyster and OHKO back with Priority Vacuum Wave. Rock Blast is only a 2hko after rocks, even then Vacuum Wave easily OHKOs.

0+ SpA Technician Mega Scizor Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 252-298 (104.5 - 123.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Mega Scizor: 140-170 (40.8 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Ice Shard vs. 248 HP / 56 Def Mega Scizor: 66-78 (19.2 - 22.7%) -- possible 5HKO

View attachment 66667
Empoleon @ Leftovers
Ability: Torrent
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Grass Knot
- Scald
- Defog
- Stealth Rock

Empoleon is another counter, Cloyster can't do a lot to it while Grass Knot easily OHKOs.

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 155-180 (41.6 - 48.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Empoleon: 115-135 (30.9 - 36.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Empoleon Grass Knot (100 BP) vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 442-522 (183.4 - 216.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

View attachment 66666
Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Lax Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Soft-Boiled
- Heal Bell

An unusual counter, Lax Blissey is very physically bulky while still retaining some offensive presence with Bolt-Beam threatening Gliscor, Landorus-T, Salamence, Diggersby and Cloyster. Probably a lot more that I'm simply forgetting.

+2 252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 335-405 (46.9 - 56.7%) -- approx. 12.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Blissey Thunderbolt vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster: 286-338 (118.6 - 140.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 170-210 (23.8 - 29.4%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Any Steel-types can switch it easily too, hm?

 

[Cilla]

I used a special Scizor.

 

[Lemon Ginger]

Infernape @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Vacuum Wave
- Fire Blast
- Taunt

This infernape set can beat Cloyster, unless it runs Hydro Pump, in which case... Good for them.

It also acts as a nice wall against mega Scizor, which is otherwise a pain to manage. Taunt can mess with stalls plans, though you could run coverage to lure stuff

 

[xJownage]

I haven't touched this meta yet and am still not really playing mons anymore, but I feel the need to point out that Blissey is pretty close to chansey in bulk. Blissey gets a slight downgrade in special bulk for an actual BOOST in physical bulk compared to chansey after evio, not to mention that it gets to run leftovers for passive recovery making it a much better wishtect passer. If Chansey is at large unhealthy, I don't see how blissey is much different.

 

[Lemon Ginger]

I haven't touched this meta yet and am still not really playing mons anymore, but I feel the need to point out that Blissey is pretty close to chansey in bulk. Blissey gets a slight downgrade in special bulk for an actual BOOST in physical bulk compared to chansey after evio, not to mention that it gets to run leftovers for passive recovery making it a much better wishtect passer. If Chansey is at large unhealthy, I don't see how blissey is much different.

It's not, and it can actually run shed shell to escape the blob trappers. The mob only hungers for the blood of one suspect at a time.

 

[Pipotchi]

Infernape @ Leftovers
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Slack Off
- Vacuum Wave
- Fire Blast
- Taunt

This infernape set can beat Cloyster, unless it runs Hydro Pump, in which case... Good for them.

It also acts as a nice wall against mega Scizor, which is otherwise a pain to manage. Taunt can mess with stalls plans, though you could run coverage to lure stuff

you could run wisp instead of taunt so you can wall other things better also. but i like this idea. Cloyster has a lot of checks to deal with him so I dont think he is quite as bad as people are maybe making out. Most strong teams will be able to add shell smash Cloyster checks without restraining their teambuilding, which IMO makes it not a broken mon; it is easily revenged by fast pokemon and priority, can be dealt with with entry hazards, and also there are strong defensive checks that can switch in on a smash and win such as defensive steel types and water types (Jirachi and Slowbro are two examples). If it started luring things with 180 SpA sets or using 180 Speed Spikes sets more I could see it becoming a more dominant and scary force in the metagame

Regarding Blissey, honestly its horribly annoying as well and I can imagine it getting kicked too. I also wonder if Kyurem-B should be looked at, its basically a far better version of Kyurem-W in ubers because it can be specs + 170 speed, specs + 170 spA, 120 speed physical, scarf 120 physical, as well as an incredibly good special defensive set. Its fastest sets outspeed most of the metagame and its strongest sets wallbreak most of the metagame- and its defensive sets wall incredibly well while also being a huge offensive threat still. The modest specs is probably the most scary, 2hkoing Blissey with focus blast and being an absolute nightmare to switch into, but its frustrating because you never know whether that Kyurem is specs until it smacks something. And that something is going to die if it is. I cant really imagine building a team without Kyub, but I dont know if that makes it broken or just S tier.

 

[Chopin Alkaninoff]

Actually, I think Blissey is tolerable, unlike Chansey. Some calc difference, assuming Blissey is Impish which has 75 Def and Chansey with 50 Def after Eviolite.

Diggersby:

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 274-324 (42.6 - 50.4%) -- 1.2% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Diggersby (77 Atk) Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 328-387 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Mega Garchomp:

+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 288-340 (44.8 - 52.9%) -- 28.9% chance to 2HKO (this is why even though Chansey is setup bait, it needs an insane amount of boosts to beat it. It's +2 from a 170 Attack mon and it still has a high chance to not 2HKO-ing)

+2 252 Atk Mega Garchomp Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 252+ Def Blissey: 346-408 (53 - 62.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Special Darmanitan with 140 SpA (Glyx introduced me to this iirc):

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 263-309 (40.9 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Darmanitan Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Blissey: 328-387 (50.3 - 59.3%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The first two actually can be walled if Blissey carries Lax nature (+Def, -SpD), while the last one can be walled if Blissey carries 252 HP / 252 SpD and any nature that doesn't swap SpD. BUT it's not one set walls all like Chansey.

Edit: Btw guys, I'd like to remind you guys to share your samples in case you don't bother with the text bellow the ban announcement. We need them.

 

[wooperboy60]

Rampardos @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Ancient Power
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast

Gotta go fast

 

[Hilomilo]

Just wondering, is Fletchinder at all relevant in the meta with the Talon ban? Its base stats certainly are rather underwhelming, but I'm unfamiliar with Nature Swap and was just wondering.