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NEE - Not Entirely Evolved

Nebulous Squirrel

Hi I've been toying around with an idea for some time now and i think that the time has come to post it and see what other people think.

There are just under 60 pokemon with three stage evolutions. The final stages of these pokemon are seen commonly in all of the current metagame tiers and there first stage evolutions are explored to an extent in LC. However i would like to propose a tournament to test whether or not there is any potential for an exclusively second stage game. Thats right second stage those forgotten pokemon doomed to be outclassed by their future forms and out-cuted by their previous ones, they who only rarely see the light of day except rarely in UU and NU and only because their OU stages are disallowed.

This tournament (if it ever takes place) will give these disillusioned middle children of the pokemon world a chance to do... well anything, but mainly to kill each other in that beloved game of ritual combat known as a pokemon battle.

Some major differences to the game would be the very noticeable lack of steel, ghost and dark types and also there would be no auto-weather introducers with pupitar lacking sandstream and the entire of the evolutionary families of Abomasnow and Hippowdon being illegal.


So what do people think? Is it an interesting idea with potential? or do you think that it it'll just be like a slower weaker version of OU with limited Pokemon? If people seem interested in it then i'm happy to organise the tournament myself but until then i just want feedback





Pokemon allowed in the tournament would be:
Ivysaur, Charmelion, Wartortle, Metapod (lol), Kakuna (also lol), Pigeotto, Nidorina, Nidorino, Pikachu, Clefairy, Jigglypuff, Golbat, Gloom, Poliwhirl, Kadabra, Machoke, Magneton, Weepinbell, Graveler, Rhydon, Haunter, Chansey, Seadra, Electabuzz, Magmar, Dragonair, Bayleef, Quilava, Croconaw, Togetic, Flaaffy, Marill, Skiploom, Piloswine, Porygon 2, Pupitar, Grovyle, Combusken, Marshtomp, Silcoon (Stop making useless cocoons gamefreak!), Cascoon, Lombre, Nuzleaf, Kirlia, Vigoroth, Roselia, Loudred, Lairon, Dusclops, Vibrava, Sealeo, Shelgon, Metang, Grotle, Monferno, Prinlup, Staravia, Luxio, Gabite (although this one may be banned if it looks like its going to be to powerfull)

Please Note: this thread was originally posted in tournaments forum but i realise that was entirely the wrong place for it so i've moved it here this isn't a double post and hopefully my other thread will be deleted soon
 
You're kinda describing NFE but excluding anyone in little cup. Unfortunately, not sure if you've seen but little cup itself has a very small fanbase, and that metagame kinda has some competitive merit to it - I can't see this having much potential, unfortunately.
 
@clandeck: Yes perhaps but i'm not convinced that this would have no competetive merit because i think that generally second stage pokes have much less specialised stat spreads which would allow for much more creativity during team design and lots suprise sets due to a larger movepool than LC... Surely such a game would have a good dynamic which is by itself a competetive merit

Also it would be NFE without LC pokemon to an extent but i think that the lack of many key pokemon would make a large enough difference to that it would be an interesting experience at least
 
@IKitsune: you see the thing is i don't want to go and bother earthworm and other such directors until i know there'd be at least some interest in it and as for the rules again i'm more than happy to make it so that the tournament follows them but i'm not even sure if there will be a tournament so there is no point working out such details now.

The only thing certain at the moment is that it would be a shoddy not a wi-fi tournament
 
I'm really not sure what this offers over plain old NFE. Even discounting the prevos of what you allow, I think your list is well under half the NFE list.

I think it could be very stallish. Chansey will wall just about every available special attacker. Porygon2 will wall stuff as well. On the offensive side, I reckon Kabadra might be common, though teams using it will want to get rid of Chansey. Light Ball Pikachu might be a threat too - I reckon it may have the strongest non-choiced offenses in the tier.
 
I have actually been working on a little something called Project: NFE on another Pokemon forum, where we actually already have a suspect list along with a ban list (all of this has been tested on the CAL server with as many as 10 other dedicated testers (note that the CAL server is not on the main Shoddy list yet)). I personally have created roughly 6 NFE teams in total so far, experimenting in different team styles (stall is most certainly viable). I would post a link to the forum but I'm afraid I might get an infraction for advertising ( =o ) so I'll stay away from that.

But yeah, PM me if you're thinking about hosting an NFE tournament, I and several others already hosted one on another website and it was quite successful.
 
This is basically a NFE tournament proposal. Like iKitsune said, this belongs in the tournaments forum, and only after it is approved by the tournament moderators. This should be a fine tournament, though. This has my support.
 
Nebulous Squirrel said:
@IKitsune: you see the thing is i don't want to go and bother earthworm and other such directors until i know there'd be at least some interest in it and as for the rules again i'm more than happy to make it so that the tournament follows them but i'm not even sure if there will be a tournament so there is no point working out such details now.

The only thing certain at the moment is that it would be a shoddy not a wi-fi tournament
Click to expand...

There will be interest regardless or not of whether people are interested in your specific idea, the fact is any and all tournaments fill up extremely quickly - they're all very popular. Furthermore the only way you are going to be able to run a tourney through smogon is like this so you might as well give it a try.
 
well thanks for input guys i'll probably just try and run a NFE tournament in the way suggested by iKitsune but it'll have to wait until the weekend also i'm in england so timing might be tricky with time difference i mean its midnight by the time evening starts in america so yer
 
there are some pokemon on that list you may want to disalloy, for balance. The only two i see that are completely better than the rest are chansey and rhydon.
 
Stall team:
Marshtomp
Chansey
Porygon2
Roselia
Dusclops
Staravia

Offensive:
Piloswine
Haunter
Magneton
Machoke
Rhydon
Gabite

There are few dedicated physical walls with recovery, which is interesting. Only Pory2 and Dusclops can really take hits from the physical side.
 
This was definitely a LNT (Late Night Tourney) theme for the past season. I don't remember how it went, but I bet if you asked some people in #stark, they could tell you a little about what it was like (or not, since it was a while ago)
 
I'm gonna tier this based on theorymon. Not much else I can do.

"OU" (I don't think there will be any Ubers...)

PIKACHU (Can't run Scarf or whatnot, but Light Ball makes this thing HURT.)
KADABRA (High speed and special attack, could make a good revenge killer.)
MAGNETON (Good special attack, steel type, can take hits. OU in Advanced)
HAUNTER (Like Kadabra, but exchanging Movepool and type for speed and SpA)
RHYDON (Was OU in the first three gens.)
CHANSEY (Needs no introduction)
ELECTABUZZ (Take away Pikachu's offense, add a little bulk and speed and a lot of movepool)
PILOSWINE (Ice type is always nice, can take hits.)
PORYGON2 (Was OU a few gens back at least, nearly is now.)
MARSHTOMP (Seems horribly anti-metagame, sorta like Swampert.)
DUSCLOPS (Can take hits, and avoid rare but deadly Rapid Spins and rarer and much deadlier Explosions)
METANG (Has a stat up move, and is nearly imposible to trap and kill due to EQ.)
MONFERNO (Combusken but better.)
STARAVIA (INTIMIDATE.)
GABITE (Not EXACTLY Garchomp light, but gives Pika a very, VERY good reason not to run HP Grass)

"BL"

IVYSAUR (Supporting grass with Sleep moves)
CHARMELEON (Hits pretty hard, has better movepool than Quilava and some stat ups)
WARTORTLE (Rapid. F***ing. Spin. Heck, I'd make it OU just because no other pokemon can use it!)
NIDORINO (Has a good movepool and decent stats to use it with)
GOLBAT (Fast, hits pretty hard, can Hypnosis if it really wants to.)
GLOOM (Think Ivysaur, but with more Sunny Day abuse.)
POLIWHIRL (BELLY DRUUUUUUUM! Off of a pretty good Base Speed!)
MACHOKE (STABd always hitting Dynamicpunch [except for Dusclops and friends]? Well, that hurts.)
MAGMAR (Got a movepool a lot like Electabuzz, and stats like his to.)
DRAGONAIR (Dance off! Gets Shed Skin and Dragon dance, as well as some support)
QUILAVA (Overheat anyone? Not much else, but that's why it's BL.)
CROCONAW (Misjudge this thing's setup, and you're gator bait.)
PUPITAR (Got a good typing, would be OU if not for Rhydon being outright better.)
GROVILE (Fast, could be good at Pursuiting since there aren't many Dark types)
COMBUSKEN (Mixed attacking powers gooo! Again, OU if not for Monferno.)
LOMBRE (Ludicolo lite.)
NUZLEAF (There is exactly ONE dark type in this environment. One.)
VIGOROTH (Sorta reminds me of Zangoose, actually.)
ROSELIA (so i herd u liek spikez?)
LOUDRED ("Dred" indeed. Has a good movepool, sort of like Porygon2's)
LAIRON (used Head Smash! Other than that, Steel/Rock isn't AS crippling in this tier.)
VIBRAVA (It's a dragon. With EQ as an aside.)
SEALEO (Has a good typing, some defense to it as well.)
SHELGON (More defensive varient of Dragonair. Can't run mixed or take special attacks though.)
GROTLE (No Rock Polish or Wood Hammer, but can Curse and Crunch at least.)
PRINPLUP (Generic Water type, but with a little extra... and stats.)
LUXIO (Intimidate, but with some Electric stuff mixed in. Inferior to Electabuzz and Pika in every other regard though)

"UU" (These guys are outclassed.)

PIDGEOTTO (Just use Staravia. It has very little over Staravia.)
NIDORINA (Nidorino is better, but I guess Nidorina can take hits more)
CLEFARY (Has a niche in Magic Guard. Other than that, Loudred and Porygon2.)
JIGGLYPUFF (...Heck, it's outclassed by CLEFARY. Infact, it only gets Hyper Voice over it)
WEEPINBELL (Outdone by Gloom and Ivysaur, but can do physical stuff on a sunny day team)
GRAVELLER (Outdone by Pupitar and Rhydon... but has a nice, solid BOOOOM to it.)
SEADRA (It's fast, but I think Prinplup is better most elsewhere.)
BAYLEAF (Any other grass type would do, Bayleef can't do much. I GUESS it could do Aromatherapy... but CHANSEY.)
TOGETIC (outdone by Loudred and Porygon2. Has a better ability, but abilitywise Clefary beats it.)
FLAAFFY (Outdone by the rest of the electrics.)
MARILL (Well, it DOES have Huge Power, but... that's not much.)
SKIPLOOM (Subseed is about it for Skiploom. It's an annoyer.)
KIRLIA (REALLY bad stats, good ability.)

"NU" (Isn't even worth your time.)

Put in order of usefulness...

CASCOON
SILCOON
KAKUNA
METAPOD (Whoopie, some get Snore. Yay, some can inflict regular poison. Hurrah, they have Shed Skin. I DON'T CARE!)


Again, entirely theorymon.
 
My guess is that this tournament would be dominated by an elite group at the top, so the advertised moveset diversity would be offset by the lack of pokemon diversity. Based on the tiers provided by Mattman324, nearly half of the "OU" tier was at one time the fully evolved pokemon in its line (Rhydon, Chansey, Magneton, etc. (wow I feel old)). These pokemon would tend to be better than the rest, who were never intended to be fully evolved.
 
Coldcut said:
My guess is that this tournament would be dominated by an elite group at the top, so the advertised moveset diversity would be offset by the lack of pokemon diversity. Based on the tiers provided by Mattman324, nearly half of the "OU" tier was at one time the fully evolved pokemon in its line (Rhydon, Chansey, Magneton, etc. (wow I feel old)). These pokemon would tend to be better than the rest, who were never intended to be fully evolved.
Click to expand...

Oh believe me, I know. Actually, some of the ones all the way down in UU were once fully evolved (Seadra and Togetic), and a group of the OUs weren't ever FE. Those would be:

Pikachu
Kadabra
Haunter
Marshtomp
Metang
Monferno
Staravia
Gabite

(Also of note that Gabite is in no way Uber in this metagame. Why? Starts with "lack of" and ends with "Sand Stream")

EDIT: Admitably about half of the NEEs that were once FE are in OU, but still. And moveset diversity is still important: Pikachu used Surf! Rhydon died. (Now it still has to chose between killing Gabite and killing Marshtomp by Hidden Power, but still)
 
Pokemon allowed in the tournament would be:
Ivysaur, Charmelion, Wartortle, Metapod (lol), Kakuna (also lol), Pigeotto, Nidorina, Nidorino, Pikachu, Clefairy, Jigglypuff, Golbat, Gloom, Poliwhirl, Kadabra, Machoke, Magneton, Weepinbell, Graveler, Rhydon, Haunter, Chansey, Seadra, Electabuzz, Magmar, Dragonair, Bayleef, Quilava, Croconaw, Togetic, Flaaffy, Marill, Skiploom, Piloswine, Porygon 2, Pupitar, Grovyle, Combusken, Marshtomp, Silcoon (Stop making useless cocoons gamefreak!), Cascoon, Lombre, Nuzleaf, Kirlia, Vigoroth, Roselia, Loudred, Lairon, Dusclops, Vibrava, Sealeo, Shelgon, Metang, Grotle, Monferno, Prinlup, Staravia, Luxio, Gabite (although this one may be banned if it looks like its going to be to powerfull)


Just looking at that list, almost every team would be Machoke, Kadabra, Porygon2, Gabite, Dragonair, Haunter, Rhydon, Vigoroth or Dusclops.

Kadabra and Haunter play the same role - fast, frail special sweepers. Rhydon and Machoke have similar roles, Gabite does the same but weaker and faster; as does Vigoroth. Dusclops is basically the only pokemon in the tier with good enough typing and defenses to wall anything. Magneton is Magneton - Like Porygon, it actually sees a lot of use in regular play which defeats the purpose of this 'tier'...

Nothing in there can wall Kadabra and Haunter except probably Porygon-2, but that is still hit with focus blast. Porygon-2 works well in OU, for heavens sake. Thats where Rhydon and Machoke come in. Rhydon just has ridiculously high attack, TBH.

But most of all, I doubt anything could stop a mixed Dragonair set. Dragon Dance/Outrage destroys everything, then flamethrower and surf to top it off... Any attempts to paralyze it or burn it are removed by Shed Skin (although Confusion from Outrage is not).



Possibly the idea needs refining, by only allowing pokemon under a certain base stat total or something along those lines. I honestly like the idea, but this is constructive criticism presented very critically; I hope you dont take this as a direct criticism of yourself.
 
Mattman324 said:
Oh believe me, I know. Actually, some of the ones all the way down in UU were once fully evolved (Seadra and Togetic), and a group of the OUs weren't ever FE. Those would be:

Pikachu
Kadabra
Haunter
Marshtomp
Metang
Monferno
Staravia
Gabite
Click to expand...

I completely respect your opinion, but I would just assume Light Ball would be banned. Metang has nowhere near as much attack, or bulk as Metagross (even to pass with pokemon who are more viable attackers from that list).
Staravia doesn't know Close Combat which, combined with its much lower stats, means it probably cant do much (even with Intimidate) when it is outsped by most of the game. Marshtomp I don't believe would be very good as most of the main attackers (The two strongest being Haunter and Kadabra) both have access to and would use Energy Ball.

Monferno would probably be better than Machoke (who I personally mentioned) because it is a much better mixed sweeper, with much better speed and movepool, even though Machoke is better defensively (Not that it matters, being slower than kadabra.


BW, OP: Gabite is nowhere near uber compared to Haunter and Kadabra.
 
Machoke isn't meant to be a sweeper in the same way that Monferno is. Slap a Scarf on it and start spamming Dynamicpunch from an excellent attack stat. It's relying on confusion and not coverage to bludgeon its way through checks, a lot like ScarfChop does in Little Cup.
 
This would make an interesting tournament, but I want to ask something. Why would NEE ban NFE pokemon? Most wouldn't have a niche anyway, it just seems like some two stage evolutions are missing out on the fun, none I'm thinking of at the moment though mind you.
 
Karakara said:
This would make an interesting tournament, but I want to ask something. Why would NEE ban NFE pokemon? Most wouldn't have a niche anyway, it just seems like some two stage evolutions are missing out on the fun, none I'm thinking of at the moment though mind you.
Click to expand...

Not at all. Murkrow, Sneasel, Scyther...
 
The thing about 'teirs' of NEE's is that their power is utterly imbalanced. Pokemon such as Rhydon, Dusclops, Chansey, Magmar and Electrabuzz would dominate.

For useful NEE's, that will certainly be broken, just peek at NU. Haunter is commonly used even with fully Evolved pokemon running around, so we can say for almost certain he will be either #2, or just plain broken. Chansey's UU, and seen as one of the best pre-Cress Special Walls, so with NEE's... no chance.

I think possibly restricting the NEE's who see frequent use in other teirs would be a good course of action. Namely:

Porygon2 [Sees light in OU]
Chansey [UU]
Haunter [NU]
Dusclops [NU]
Gabite [Appears sometimes in NU as a Scarfed Attacker]

And some for sheer common sence:

Rhydon
Electrabuzz
MAYBE Magmar

Most NEE's hardly see light in any teir, even NU. This is what we'd want to focus on. If a pokemon is decent enough to carve use in a place with Fully Evolved Pokemon, they are obviously uber when other NEEs have no chance.
 
I think the ideal form of this tournament would look something like the BL list Mattman put up, with the possible inclusion of Metang so there are steels to resist dragon moves that don't have double 4x weaknesses (poor Lairon...). Maybe a tournament based around the 12 starter second forms (Ivysaur, Charmeleon, Wartortle, etc.) would be more balanced? If pokemon like Kadabra, Chansey, or Rhydon are allowed, it would ruin the idea of giving the "middle children" a chance by effectively banning the ~60% or so that can't compete with the top. As Raikaria mentioned, several of the top tier enjoy some use in other tiers, so they don't need a new circuit for them to become useful.
 
Alright, I've edited. Here's the new tiers.

OU: Pikachu, Machoke, Kadabra, Magneton, Haunter, Rhydon, Chansey, Electabuzz, Porygon2, Vigoroth, Dusclops, Monferno, Garchomp. *Inclusions are Machoke and Vigoroth, exclusions are Marshtomp, Staravia, and Metang [even though I like 60/100/80 defenses...]*

BL: Same as before, but now without OU's inclusions and with OU's Exclusions.

Everything lower: The same.

How does that look?
 
I currently play NFE on wifi, and stuff like Scyther, Chansey, Kadabra, Dusclops, Haunter, Porygon 2 were banned as they are either tiered or deemed too broken for NFE play.
 
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