Metagame NFE Metagame

D2TheW · Jul 13, 2019

Yeah I'm just gonna take the L here. Golbat is probably borked though I still don't think it would be totally unmanageable, so I support a Servine suspect. Also my bad for not knowing how old this meta is, I'll be sure to check these things in future

Simbo · Jul 14, 2019

NFEPL 3 Draft Results

Here's the Player Pricelist: https://pastebin.com/rekzV9hJ

Credits Going into Midseason

Bayern Munchlax - 3.5k
Ferocious Ferroseeds - 7.5k
Monferno Mafia - 6.5k
Ravenous Roselias - 2k
The Sliggoons - 2.5k
Traitorous Trumbeaks - 6k

Each team will be given an additional 5k when the midseason auction starts. They cannot use that 5k for trades.

Week 1 Matchups will be announced on forums and discord tomorrow. Any trades that happen before then will also be announced then. Rosters will be updated on the spreadsheet and forums as the tournament progresses

Simbo · Jul 15, 2019

NFEPL 3 Week 1:

ALL MATCH REPLAYS SHOULD BE POSTED IN THE NFE DISCORD IN #replays-channel. PLEASE DO NOT POST REPLAYS HERE.

Pre-Week 1 Trades and other Admin

Vooper and Crystalites of The Sliggoons have traded Lucario1582 for Eli and rssp1 from the Traitorous Trumbeaks, led by TBZ and Spiderz
Vooper and Crystalites of The Sliggoons have traded Cheese555 for Bebo from the Monferno Maifa, led by neomon and Thiago Nunes
Neomon from the Monferno Mafia has appointed Thiago Nunes as his assman
Neomon from the Monferno Mafia have traded SMB for Spitfire Arcanine from the Bayern Munchlax, led by London and Frisoeva

Updated rosters can be found on the admin post on the last page and on the NFEPL 3 Doc.

NFEPL 3 Document

The document will be updated during the week with player records, standings, replays etc.

WEEK 1 Matchups

Bayern Munchlax (5) VS Traitorous Trumbeaks (3)

SM NFE Bo3: Cam vs ShuckleDeath
SM NFE: Frisoeva vs hawkie
SM NFE: Plas vs JezebelleXX
SM NFE: Trace vs Huston
SM NFE: Blinkboy vs Lucario1582
SM NFE: SMB vs ~~spiderz~~ free my man tele
ORAS NFE: Official Fissure vs DanDaMan99
NFE Ubers: Ereshkigal vs TBZ (Banana Spritzee)

The Sliggoons (3) VS Ravenous Roselias (5)

SM NFE Bo3: Lockjaw vs Ktutverde
SM NFE: Quagsgone vs Amphareixon
SM NFE: SHSP vs miyami
SM NFE: Jho vs Marjane
SM NFE: martha vs againa
SM NFE: bebo vs Cheryl
ORAS NFE: Crystalites vs rafooa11
NFE Ubers: jcbc vs dom

Ferocious Ferroseeds (4) VS Monferno Mafia (4)

SM NFE Bo3: ~~Tack~~ Kaif vs ~~neomon~~ PD
SM NFE: xHys vs Ninjadog13
SM NFE: King Leo V vs Toy Time King
SM NFE: DadoRossoFuoco vs Thiago Nunes
SM NFE: Bloodace vs Yami
SM NFE: Monsareeasy vs Spitfire Arcanine
ORAS NFE: SBPC vs 85percent
NFE Ubers: Alexander489 vs CrazyStevy

Deadline is midnight Sunday July 21st GMT -4.
Managers have til midnight Saturday July 20th GMT -4 to submit Week 2 Lineups.

Simbo · Jul 21, 2019

ORAS NFE Speed Tiers

400+

612 / Poliwhirl / 90 / +Spe / 252 / +2
590 / Seadra / 85 / +Spe / 252 / +2
572 / Combusken / 55 / +Spe / 252 / +3
558 / Poliwhirl / 90 / Neutral / 252 / +2
530 / Whirlipede / 47 / +Spe / 252 / +3
524 / Dragonair / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +2
522 / Combusken / 55 / Neutral / 252 / +3
516 / Drilbur / 68 / +Spe / 252 / +2
512 / Fraxure / 67 /+Spe / 252 / +2
510 / Klang / 50 / Neutral / 136 / +4
508 / Electabuzz, Kadabra / +Spe / 252 / +1
483 / Frogadier / 97 / +Spe / 252 / +1
480 / Ivysaur, Nuzleaf / 60 / +Spe / 252 / +2
478 / Dragonair / 70 / Neutral / 252 / +2
472 / Croconaw / 58 / +Spe / 252 / +2
470 / Drilbur / 68 / Neutral / 252 / +2
469 / Magmar / 93 / +Spe / 252 / +1
466 / Fraxure / 67 / Neutral / 252 / +2
458 / Combusken, Weepinbell / 55 / +Spe / 252 / +2
442 / Seadra / 85 / +Spe / 252 / +1
438 / Klang / 50 / Neutral / 40 / +4
436 / Klang, Lombre, Metang / 50 / +Spe / 252 / +2
433 / Gabite / 82 / +Spe / 252 / +1
432 / Swirlix / 49 / +Spe / 252 / +2
430 / Monferno / 81 / +Spe / 252 / +1
427 / Magmar / 85 / Neutral / 252 / +1
426 / Quilava, Staravia / 80 / +Spe / 252 / +1
424 / Whirlipede / 47 / +Spe / 252 / +2
418 / Combusken, Weepinbell / 55 / Neutral / 252 / +2
406 / Krokorok / 74 / +Spe / 252 / +1
403 / Braixen / 73 / +Spe / 252 / +1

300-399

398 / Klang, Lombre, Metang / 50 / Neutral / 252 / +2
393 / Dragonair / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +1
392 / Lairon / 40 / +Spe / 252 / +2
387 / Drilbur / 68 / +Spe / 252 / +1
384 / Fraxure / 67 / +Spe / 252 / +1
376 / Roselia / 65 / +Spe / 252 / +1
370 / Omanyte / 35 / +Spe / 252 / +2
367 / Braixen / 73 / Neutral / 252 / +1
360 / Rufflet, Vullaby / 60 / +Spe / 252 / +1
358 / Gloom, Lairon / 40 / Neutral / 252 / +2
358 / Dragonair / 70 / Neutral / 252 / +1
358 / Clamperl / 32 / +Spe / 252 / +2
354 / Croconaw, Zweilous / 58 / +Spe / 252 / +1
349 / Fraxure / 67 / Neutral / 252 / +1
343 / Combusken, Lampent / 55 / +Spe / 252 / +1
343 / Roselia / 65 / Neutral / 252 / +1
340 / Klang / 50 / Neutral / 136 / +2
339 / Electabuzz, Kadabra / 105 / +Spe / 252 / +0
331 / Pupitar / 51 / +Spe / 252 / +1
327 / Shelgon / 50 / +Spe / 252 / +1
322 / Frogadier / 97 / +Spe / 252 / +0
318 / Whirlipede / 47 / +Spe / 252 / +1
313 / Combusken / 55 / Neutral / 252 / +1
313 / Magmar / 93 / +Spe / 252 / +0
309 / Murkrow / 91 / +Spe / 252 / +0
306 / Pikachu, Poliwhirl / 90 / +Spe / 252 / +0

200-299

295 / Misdreavus, Seadra, Staryu / 85 / +Spe / 252 / +0
292 / Klang / 50 / Neutral / 40 / +2
289 / Gabite / 82 / +Spe / 252 / +0
287 / Monferno / 81 / +Spe / 252 / +0
285 / Magmar / 93 / Neutral / 252 / +0
284 / Quilava, Staravia / 80 / +Spe / 252 / +0
279 / Pikachu, Poliwhirl / 90 / Neutral / 252 / +0
271 / Krokorok / 74 / +Spe / 252 / +0
269 / Seadra / 85 / Neutral / 252 / +0
269 / Braixen / 73 / +Spe / 252 / +0
262 / Dragonair, Natu, Vibrava / 70 / +Spe / 252 / +0
261 / Monferno / 81 / Neutral / 252 / +0
258 / Drilbur / 68 / +Spe / 252 / +0
256 / Fraxure / 67 / +Spe / 252 / +0
251 / Mienfoo, Nidorino, Roselia / 65 / +Spe / 252 / +0
245 / Braixen / 73 / Neutral / 252 / +0
241 / Misdreavus / 85 / Neutral / 140 / +0
240 / Nuzleaf, Rufflet, Vullaby / 60 / +Spe / 252 / +0
239 / Dragonair / 70 / Neutral / 252 / +0
236 / Croconaw, Zweilous / 58 / +Spe / 252 / +0
235 / Drilbur / 68 / Neutral / 252 / +0
234 / Quilladin / 57 / +Spe / 252 / +0
233 / Fraxure / 67 / Neutral / 252 / +0
229 / Combusken Lampent, Pignite / 55 / +Spe / 252 / +0
229 / Mienfoo, Nidorino, Roselia / 65 / Neutral / 252 / +0
227 / Roselia / 65 / Neutral / 244/ +0
221 / Pupitar / 51 / +Spe / 252 / +0
220 / Monferno / 81 / Neutral / 88 / +0
219 / Rufflet, Sliggoo, Vullaby / 60 / Neutral / 252 / +0
218 / Klang, Lombre / 50 / +Spe / 252 / +0
218 / Murkrow / 91 / Neutral / 0 / +0
216 / Poliwhirl / 90 / Neutral / 0 / +0
216 / Swirlix / 49 / +Spe / 252 / +0
215 / Croconaw, Zweilous / 58 / Neutral / 252 / +0
212 / Whirlipede / 47 / +Spe / 252 / +0
209 / Combusken, Pignite / 55 / Neutral / 252 / +0
206 / Misdreavus, Staryu / 85 / Neutral / 0 / +0
201 / Swadloon / 42 / +Spe / 252 / +0

100-199

198 / Monferno / 81 / Neutral / 0 / +0
197 / Swirlix / 49 / Neutral / 252 / +0
196 / Staravia / 80 / Neutral / 0 / +0
196 / Lairon / 40 / +Spe / 252 / +0
184 / Krokorok / 74 / Neutral / 0 / +0
182 / Braixen / 73 / Neutral / 0 / +0
180 / Metang / 50 / Neutral / 176 / +0
179 / Lairon / 40 / Neutral / 252 / +0
179 / Clamperl / 32 / +Spe / 252 / +0
176 / Dragonair, Natu, Vibrava / 70 / Neutral / 0 / +0
174 / Palpitoad / 69 / Neutral / 0 / +0
170 / Klang / 50 / Neutral / 136 / +0
167 / Marill / 40 / Neutral / 204 / +0
166 / Mienfoo, Nidorino, Roselia / 65 / Neutral / 0 / +0
161 / Sliggoo / 60 / Neutral / 20 / 0
156 / Ivysaur, Rufflet, Tangela, Vullaby / 60 / Neutral / 0 / +0
152 / Wartortle, Zweilous / 58 / Neutral / 0 / +0
150 / Quilladin / 57 / Neutral / 0 / +0
146 / Klang / 50 / Neutral / 40 / +0
146 / Pignite / 55 / Neutral / 0 / +0
137 / Omanyte / 35 / Neutral / 124 / +0
136 / Marshtomp, Metang, Prinplup, Shelgon / 50 / Neutral / 0 / +0
122 / Marshtomp / 50 / -Spe / 0 / +0
120 / Swadloon / 42 / Neutral / 0 / +0
116 / Eelektrik, Gloom, Lairon, Marill, Togetic / 40 / Neutral / 0 / +0
107 / Sliggoo / 60 / Neutral / 20 / -1
106 / Clefairy / 35 / Neutral / 0 / +0
100 / Hippopotas / 32 / Neutral / 0 / +0

99 or less

96 / Duosion, Lickitung / 30 / Neutral / 0 / +0
86 / Dusclops / 25 / Neutral / 0 / +0
82 / Spritzee / 23 / Neutral / 0 / +0
66 / Slowpoke / 15 / Neutral / 0 / +0
56 / Ferroseed / 10 / Neutral / 0 / +0
46 / Munchlax / 5 / Neutral / 0 / +0

ORAS NFE Role Compendium

Welcome to the Role Compendium for Gen 6 NFE. Here you will find all of the usable Pokemon in the ORAS NFE tier organized into roles that they can fulfill for a team. If you find any errors please let me know.

Depending on how the metagame develops, more roles may be added as time goes on and there might be some revamps to the project later down the line.

Stealth Rock Users

Spikes / Toxic Spikes / Sticky Web Users

Spikes:

Toxic Spikes:

Sticky Web:

Hazard Control

Rapid Spin:

Defog:

Magic Bounce:

Priority Users

Sucker Punch:

Mach Punch:

Aqua Jet:

Bullet Punch:

Quick Attack:

Extreme Speed:

Fake Out:

Momentum and Pivots

Volt Switch:

U-turn:

Regenerator:

Knock Off Users

Trappers

Pursuit:

Magnet Pull:

Other trappers:

Clerics

Wish:

Heal Bell / Aromatherapy:

Weather Setters

Rain:

Sun:

Weather Abusers

Rain:

Sun:

Trick Room Setters

Wallbreakers

Physical:

Special:

Boosting Sweepers

Swords Dance:

Curse:

Nasty Plot:

Calm Mind:

Dragon Dance:

Bulk Up:

Other:

Stallbreakers and Taunt/Encore Users

Phazers

Roar:

Whirlwind:

Haze:

Dragon Tail:

Walls

Physical:

Special:

Mixed:

Electric Immunities And Checks:

elleapple · Jul 21, 2019

NFEPL Week 1 Recap

Hey NFE forums. This is something I plan to do every week of the PL where I give my thoughts on cool mons, things that happened during the week, and some hl matches

Pokemon:

Vullaby: THIS DUDE. Vull may in fact be my favorite Pokemon in the meta right now. I've built with it a grand total of twice but it already feels so good to use. The only Pokemon that can actually safely defog on Roselia ~~other than Zubat.~~ It's also one of if not the most reliable servine check right now
56 SpA Contrary Servine Leaf Storm over 3 turns vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 208-247 (60.6 - 72%) -- not a KO
8+ Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 160 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Servine: 152-180 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I personally use an adamant nature in order to secure as much damage as possible without investing as much into attack, without ada you miss the 2hko on this servine without rocks up as well as doing less chip to other mons with knock off
0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 248 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 67-81 (19.5 - 23.6%) -- possible 5HKO
Nominating Vull to B-/B

Mudbray: Another very solid LC Pokemon, I've found ground types to be super good in the current meta, with the prevalence of Servine leading people to believe that ground types don't exist and thus not prepping against them. Mudbray's stellar base 100 attack allows it to dish out sufficient damage while still investing in bulk. I've found that a SpDef invested RestTalk set with Earthquake and Heavy Slam to work the best but I'm sure other viable sets will be found by myself or other builders soon.
Nominateing Mudbray to B-

Marshtomp: Literally the best water type rn after Mareanie. Marshtomp offers insane role compression like no other. Need rocks? Marshtomp. Team weak to Monferno? Marshtomp. Team needs a general Def or SpDef wall? Marshtomp. The only things holding Marshtomp back is lack of reliable recovery outside rest as well as the glaring weakness to Servine.
Nominating Marshtomp to A-

Togetic: Togetic has long been in the shadow of Clefairy. But I say no longer! Togetic is Bulkier than Clefiary in every stat which allows it to run Spa invest! NP isn't even needed and can be switched out for Defog or a third attack in Physhock
252+ SpA Togetic Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Metang: 154-182 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Togetic Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 258-304 (87.7 - 103.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Nominating Togetic to A-

Thoughts On the Week:

Despite Ending in a tie, I think this was a very strong week for my team. Our HL match of a bo3 ending up needing a double sub which was sad but I think the entire team played and built well. Looking forward to next week's games vs. our fellow grass types the Ravenous Roselias. They'll be good games.

NFE Ubers:

NFE Ubers may in fact be the worst metagame I've ever had the displeasure of building for. Spamming broken Pokemon in the builder was fun for a total of 5 minutes until I realized that it'd be the same exact shit for the next 5 or so weeks. Abolish NFE Ubers, free NFE Secret Meta.

Servine Suspect:

As an NFE Councilmember I guess I should give my thoughts on a possible Servine Suspect Test. Currently I 100% agree that Servine should be Suspect Tested, as its presence in both the builder and in-game can easily be seen as overwhelming. Currently, however, I don't believe Servine to be banworthy, as I think there is sufficient counterplay with Pokemon like Roselia and Monferno being extremely common and with Vullaby on the rise. Before I form a full opinion on Servine in the current meta I'm going to wait to see how NFEPL continues and what counterplay to Servine arises.

Conclusion:

I'm very happy to be managing for this NFEPL. I think I had a great draft and that my team is going to do well during the tour. Good luck to the other teams and I hope we get Roselia Ferroseed Finals so bad omg.

TL;DR: Neomon dodged tack, Vullaby for B Rank.

ArcticBreeze · Jul 21, 2019

I agree with everything above.

Also marill to B/B+ 100% tour winrate too ez best mon in the format u know the drill!!!!!!! the drill of marill!!!! I might actual make a serious marill nom later but i dont feel like it.

Im here for the DINO. DESTRUCTION INDUCING NEVER OBSOLETE DINO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been spamming this thing in room tours for fun. This Pokemon merits a C/C+ ranking for sure.

Dino (Cranidos) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
- Zen Headbutt
- Rock Slide

Note: Jolly can also be used but also lacks some power. One of the main reasons to use Jolly is to outspeeds SPD Servine although i just go for ADA.

There are very few things that can switch into this pokemon. Great coverage and the highest legal attack stat. Cranidos also boasts an amazing ability in sheer force allowing it to with LO getting 2 noteworthy boosts while not taking LO damage unless using Earthquake. Cranidos also has another option in Rock Polish and SR but since it is frail and very few pokemon want to switch into it to begin with its hard. And even if you get a rock polish marsh or prinplup force you out. SO although it IS predictable once you have faced it once or twice you still can not switch into it. Its best answer Marshtomp is heavily pressured already by checking a possible monferno. But now it must switch in which means smth like monferno can sweep late game.

CALCS

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Roselia: 369-437 (121.7 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 281-333 (77.1 - 91.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(NOTE SOME MACHOKE RUN SPEED THIS MEANS THAT DEPENDING ON THE SPREAD CRANIDOS CAN SOMETIMES EVEN THREATEN A KO WITH A ROLL OR A GUARANTEED KO AFTER A LAYER OF SPIKES AND WITHOUT ANY SPEED INVESTMENT VS MAX HP MACHOKE WITH ROCKS AND 3 LAYERS U HAVE A HEAVY CHANCE TO KO AND MACHOKE CAN NOT SWITCH IN)

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Marshtomp: 95-113 (27.6 - 32.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
(NOTE THAT EQ IS STILL A 4HKO)

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 242-283 (77 - 90.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 265-312 (77 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 165-195 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Prinplup: 204-242 (61.4 - 72.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Mareanie: 205-242 (67.6 - 79.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Servine: 252-299 (96.5 - 114.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Cranidos Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Grimer-Alola: 351-413 (96.6 - 113.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Life Orb Cranidos Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 203-239 (62.8 - 73.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Life Orb Cranidos Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Metang: 161-190 (49.6 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Servine is one of the few u might need to predict but rock slide still does massive damage and SPD servine can switch in on rockslide + fire punch if you are jolly even though jolly is not optimal.

With the highest Base atk stat legal this mon is insane. Oh and btw

252+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 374-442 (108.7 - 128.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If you want iron head it can work in rare occasions

Defensively i dont feel like listing more calcs but u take a grimer-a knock off or moonblast from clefairy defensively. Sure its frail but it can work and vs fatter teams it can feel like if ur opponent kills a mon u have cran kills one back. With a little chip it can just 6-0 fatter teams. If you play aggressively cranidos can be very rewarding, and if u get hit it doesnt feel as good but im not nomming this thing to S lol.

I might post some replays later, but 2bh i dont feel like it unless someone disagrees

252+ Atk Choice Band Mold Breaker Cranidos Head Smash vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Wurmple on a critical hit: 658668296-774903882 (65866829600 - 77490388200%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Simbo · Jul 21, 2019

NFEPL 3 Week 1 Round Up Post

Updated standings, team and player records, matchup results for the week and replays can be found on the NFEPL 3 spreadsheet.

NFEPL 3 Doc

Week 1 Trades and other Admin

Admin: Regarding the Trumbeaks, there was a discord post stating that Spiderz was no longer the assman of that team. That post was wrong, the issue within the team has been resolved and Spiderz will remain assman. I will be in the Trumbeaks discord, with access to all channels, til the end of wk 2
Admin: Tack called act on neomon on Friday. Based on the logs I received from Tack, I decided that a double sub is the fairest solution for both teams. PD was subbed in for neomon and Kaif for Tack.
Message: In future weeks, please make sure you and your players have reasonable availability for a week if you're gonna play it. If you know you definitely can’t play on certain days, especially weekend, let your opponent know that in the first scheduling message. I wont be able to give act wins if you can only play on one day of the week, that's unfair on the opposition.
Admin: SMB called act on spiderz on Saturday. free my man tele subbed in for spiderz.
Message: After reviewing the PD/Kaif game and seeing a few other games this week, reminder that any form of set speculation or play suggestions in the chat is not allowed. You're free to chat a bit of shit and show team spirit, thats fine but do not guess what sets or EV spreads Pokemon could be in the chat, or suggest future plays. If I see any of this in the future, I will deal with it accordingly.

SM NFE Week 1 Usage Stats

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Machoke | 19 | 45.24% | 78.95% |
| 2 | Roselia | 18 | 42.86% | 50.00% |
| 2 | Clefairy | 18 | 42.86% | 38.89% |
| 4 | Servine | 16 | 38.10% | 56.25% |
| 5 | Monferno | 14 | 33.33% | 42.86% |
| 6 | Haunter | 13 | 30.95% | 61.54% |
| 6 | Grimer-Alola | 13 | 30.95% | 61.54% |
| 8 | Marshtomp | 10 | 23.81% | 60.00% |
| 8 | Electabuzz | 10 | 23.81% | 50.00% |
| 8 | Kadabra | 10 | 23.81% | 50.00% |
| 11 | Krokorok | 9 | 21.43% | 55.56% |
| 12 | Metang | 8 | 19.05% | 75.00% |
| 12 | Mareanie | 8 | 19.05% | 50.00% |
| 12 | Pawniard | 8 | 19.05% | 37.50% |
| 15 | Gabite | 7 | 16.67% | 57.14% |
| 16 | Combusken | 5 | 11.90% | 40.00% |
| 16 | Frogadier | 5 | 11.90% | 40.00% |
| 18 | Prinplup | 4 | 9.52% | 50.00% |
| 18 | Togetic | 4 | 9.52% | 50.00% |
| 18 | Staravia | 4 | 9.52% | 25.00% |
| 18 | Trumbeak | 4 | 9.52% | 25.00% |
| 22 | Wartortle | 3 | 7.14% | 66.67% |
| 22 | Vullaby | 3 | 7.14% | 66.67% |
| 22 | Quilladin | 3 | 7.14% | 33.33% |
| 22 | Misdreavus | 3 | 7.14% | 0.00% |
| 26 | Klang | 2 | 4.76% | 100.00% |
| 26 | Eelektrik | 2 | 4.76% | 50.00% |
| 26 | Ferroseed | 2 | 4.76% | 50.00% |
| 26 | Dusclops | 2 | 4.76% | 0.00% |
| 26 | Lairon | 2 | 4.76% | 0.00% |
| 26 | Torracat | 2 | 4.76% | 0.00% |
| 32 | Magmar | 1 | 2.38% | 100.00% |
| 32 | Nidorino | 1 | 2.38% | 100.00% |
| 32 | Eevee | 1 | 2.38% | 100.00% |
| 32 | Dewpider | 1 | 2.38% | 100.00% |
| 32 | Fraxure | 1 | 2.38% | 100.00% |
| 32 | Marill | 1 | 2.38% | 100.00% |
| 32 | Fletchinder | 1 | 2.38% | 100.00% |
| 32 | Cyndaquil | 1 | 2.38% | 0.00% |
| 32 | Meditite | 1 | 2.38% | 0.00% |
| 32 | Palpitoad | 1 | 2.38% | 0.00% |
| 32 | Hakamo-o | 1 | 2.38% | 0.00% |
| 32 | Drilbur | 1 | 2.38% | 0.00% |
| 32 | Murkrow | 1 | 2.38% | 0.00% |
| 32 | Smoochum | 1 | 2.38% | 0.00% |
| 32 | Ivysaur | 1 | 2.38% | 0.00% |
| 32 | Riolu | 1 | 2.38% | 0.00% |
| 32 | Weepinbell | 1 | 2.38% | 0.00% |
| 32 | Poipole | 1 | 2.38% | 0.00% |
| 32 | Mudbray | 1 | 2.38% | 0.00% |
| 32 | Munchlax | 1 | 2.38% | 0.00% |
| 32 | Lampent | 1 | 2.38% | 0.00% |

SM NFE Week 1 Two Mon 'Cores' Usage Stats

Cutoff point for these 'cores' was 4+ Uses

+ ---- + ------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Combos of 2 | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Roselia / Clefairy | 10 | 23.81% | 30.00% |
| 2 | Servine / Machoke | 9 | 21.43% | 77.78% |
| 2 | Monferno / Clefairy | 9 | 21.43% | 44.44% |
| 4 | Roselia / Machoke | 8 | 19.05% | 87.50% |
| 4 | Roselia / Monferno | 8 | 19.05% | 37.50% |
| 6 | Grimer-Alola / Machoke | 7 | 16.67% | 100.00% |
| 6 | Machoke / Clefairy | 7 | 16.67% | 71.43% |
| 6 | Krokorok / Clefairy | 7 | 16.67% | 57.14% |
| 9 | Servine / Haunter | 6 | 14.29% | 83.33% |
| 9 | Servine / Grimer-Alola | 6 | 14.29% | 83.33% |
| 9 | Mareanie / Roselia | 6 | 14.29% | 66.67% |
| 9 | Electabuzz / Machoke | 6 | 14.29% | 50.00% |
| 9 | Grimer-Alola / Clefairy | 6 | 14.29% | 50.00% |
| 9 | Haunter / Roselia | 6 | 14.29% | 50.00% |
| 9 | Roselia / Krokorok | 6 | 14.29% | 50.00% |
| 9 | Mareanie / Clefairy | 6 | 14.29% | 50.00% |
| 9 | Servine / Clefairy | 6 | 14.29% | 33.33% |
| 9 | Haunter / Clefairy | 6 | 14.29% | 33.33% |
| 19 | Servine / Electabuzz | 5 | 11.90% | 80.00% |
| 19 | Servine / Marshtomp | 5 | 11.90% | 80.00% |
| 19 | Marshtomp / Machoke | 5 | 11.90% | 80.00% |
| 19 | Metang / Roselia | 5 | 11.90% | 80.00% |
| 19 | Servine / Kadabra | 5 | 11.90% | 80.00% |
| 19 | Mareanie / Monferno | 5 | 11.90% | 60.00% |
| 19 | Mareanie / Machoke | 5 | 11.90% | 60.00% |
| 19 | Kadabra / Grimer-Alola | 5 | 11.90% | 60.00% |
| 19 | Machoke / Pawniard | 5 | 11.90% | 60.00% |
| 19 | Krokorok / Monferno | 5 | 11.90% | 60.00% |
| 19 | Haunter / Kadabra | 5 | 11.90% | 60.00% |
| 19 | Marshtomp / Electabuzz | 5 | 11.90% | 40.00% |
| 19 | Electabuzz / Roselia | 5 | 11.90% | 40.00% |
| 19 | Pawniard / Clefairy | 5 | 11.90% | 20.00% |
| 19 | Haunter / Monferno | 5 | 11.90% | 20.00% |
| 34 | Haunter / Machoke | 4 | 9.52% | 100.00% |
| 34 | Kadabra / Machoke | 4 | 9.52% | 100.00% |
| 34 | Haunter / Marshtomp | 4 | 9.52% | 75.00% |
| 34 | Monferno / Machoke | 4 | 9.52% | 75.00% |
| 34 | Haunter / Grimer-Alola | 4 | 9.52% | 75.00% |
| 34 | Marshtomp / Grimer-Alola | 4 | 9.52% | 75.00% |
| 34 | Roselia / Pawniard | 4 | 9.52% | 50.00% |
| 34 | Grimer-Alola / Monferno | 4 | 9.52% | 50.00% |
| 34 | Marshtomp / Monferno | 4 | 9.52% | 25.00% |
| 34 | Kadabra / Clefairy | 4 | 9.52% | 25.00% |
| 34 | Kadabra / Monferno | 4 | 9.52% | 25.00% |
| 34 | Servine / Pawniard | 4 | 9.52% | 25.00% |
| 34 | Marshtomp / Roselia | 4 | 9.52% | 25.00% |

SBPC · Jul 21, 2019

Since nobody posted them, here's the Week 1 usage for ORAS in NFEPL.

# Pokemon Uses Usage% Win%
[1] | Machoke | [5] [13.89%] [60%]
[2] | Pawniard | [4] [11.11%] [75%]
[2] | Frogadier | [4] [11.11%] [25%]
[3] | Kadabra | [3] [8.33%] [66.67%]
[4] | Monferno | [2] [5.56%] [50%]
[4] | Electabuzz | [2] [5.56%] [50%]
[4] | Gabite | [2] [5.56%] [50%]
[4] | Swadloon | [2] [5.56%] [50%]
[4] | Staravia | [2] [5.56%] [50%]
[5] | Hippopotas | [1] [2.78%] [0%]
[5] | Klang | [1] [2.78%] [0%]
[5] | Zwelious | [1] [2.78%] [0%]
[5] | Roselia | [1] [2.78%] [100%]
[5] | Togetic | [1] [2.78%] [0%]
[5] | Vullaby | [1] [2.78%] [100%]
[5] | Grotle | [1] [2.78%] [0%]
[5] | Ferroseed | [1] [2.78%] [0%]
[5] | Fraxure | [1] [2.78%] [100%]

Simbo · Jul 22, 2019

NFEPL 3 Week 2:

ALL MATCH REPLAYS SHOULD BE POSTED IN THE NFE DISCORD IN #replays-channel. PLEASE DO NOT POST REPLAYS HERE.
MIDSEASON SIGNUPS LIKEWISE WILL BE IN THE #mids-signups channel in the NFE Discord. PLEASE DO NOT POST SIGNUPS HERE.

Week 2 Midseason Announcement

Midseason signups are now live on Discord. Here's the signup format. Midseason signups close midnight Sunday 28th July GMT -4. Link to NFE Discord here.

Smogon Username:
PS Username:
Discord Tag:
Timezone:
Tiers Played:
Can you build for yourself and/or others?:
Significant Time Missed?:

At the start of Week 2, sign-ups will open for midseason. Players who weren't drafted or people who did not sign up before the draft can sign up and a new free agent list will be made. Note: Even if you signed up the first time around, you must re-signup in order to get on the midseason free agent list. Signups will be in #mids-signups on Discord. After sign-ups close, I will remind each manager how many credits they have left over from the original live auction. In addition, each team will get an extra 5000 credits on top of any credits saved from the live auction for mids.

Instead of having another live auction, an auction will take place in a specific NFE Discord channel. Managers will post their bids, with other managers having up to 12 hours from the time of the post to make a higher bid on the player. After 12 hours, if the manager has not been outbid, his or her team will be awarded the player/s. The Midseason auction will occur during Week 3. The players purchased here will be allowed to start playing starting on Week 4. There is no use for leftover credits after the midseason free agent pickups, so it is in every manager’s best interest to spend all of their remaining points at this time. No players may enter NFEPL 3 after the midseason auction, except in the case of a team falling below the minimum number of starters due to their players being banned, in which case they'll be allowed to pick players from the undrafted pool until they reach the minimum.

Managers will also have the opportunity to sellback any inactive or toxic players before or during mids. However, all sellbacks will be 3k. Sellbacks will be allowed til the end of week 2.

Updated rosters can be found on the admin post on the last page and on the NFEPL 3 Doc.

NFEPL 3 Document

The document will be updated during the week with player records, standings, replays etc.

WEEK 2 Matchups

Bayern Munchlax (5) VS The Sliggoons (3)

SM NFE Bo3: Cam vs Lockjaw
SM NFE: ~~Trace~~ Frisoeva vs SHSP
SM NFE: Plas vs ~~bebo~~ vooper
SM NFE: Czim vs Jho
SM NFE: Blinkboy vs martha
SM NFE: Banks vs jcbc
ORAS NFE: Official Fissure vs Crystalites
NFE Ubers: SMB vs velvet blood

Ferocious Ferroseeds (4) VS Ravenous Roselias (4)

SM NFE Bo3: DadoRossoFuoco vs Ktutverde
SM NFE: Tack vs dom
SM NFE: Bloodace vs RajShoot
SM NFE: xHys vs taranteeeno
SM NFE: ~~King Leo V~~ Kaif vs Voltage
SM NFE: Monsareeasy vs Cheryl
ORAS NFE: SBPC vs rafooa11
NFE Ubers: Alexander489 vs Marjane

Traitorous Trumbeaks (4) VS Monferno Mafia (4)

SM NFE Bo3: TBZ (Banana Spritzee) vs neomon
SM NFE: ShuckleDeath vs Ninjadog13
SM NFE: free my man tele vs Yami
SM NFE: tallydaorangez vs Thiago Nunes
SM NFE: TheJ3estPenguin vs PD
SM NFE: Xayah vs Spitfire Arcanine
ORAS NFE: hawkie vs 85percent
NFE Ubers: DanDaMan99 vs CrazyStevy

Deadline is midnight Sunday July 28th GMT -4.
Manager Week 3 Lineup Deadline is midnight Saturday July 27th GMT -4

Eris · Jul 22, 2019

Going to respond to the nominations because I want to

RuffletMuffler said:
Mudbray: Another very solid LC Pokemon, I've found ground types to be super good in the current meta, with the prevalence of Servine leading people to believe that ground types don't exist and thus not prepping against them. Mudbray's stellar base 100 attack allows it to dish out sufficient damage while still investing in bulk. I've found that a SpDef invested RestTalk set with Earthquake and Heavy Slam to work the best but I'm sure other viable sets will be found by myself or other builders soon.
Nominateing Mudbray to B-

Agree Mudbray C to B-
I've personally had some troubles using Mudbray in the past but once getting around with it Mudbray is really good, it isn't scared of getting burned and can tank Special attacks which is one of the best advantages a Ground-type can have in this metagame. It also is a great Servine lure which arguably is one of its best traits because not a lot of Pokemons can tank Earthquake + Heavy Slam/Close Combat other than Water-types and Servine. Besides the restalk set, Mudbray can function as a physical attacker and stealth rock setter if needed, Mudbray can hit and tank a wide range of Pokemons in the metagame which allows it to be viable enough to rise up.

RuffletMuffler said:
Marshtomp: Literally the best water type rn after Mareanie. Marshtomp offers insane role compression like no other. Need rocks? Marshtomp. Team weak to Monferno? Marshtomp. Team needs a general Def or SpDef wall? Marshtomp. The only things holding Marshtomp back is lack of reliable recovery outside rest as well as the glaring weakness to Servine.
Nominating Marshtomp to A-

Agree Marshtomp B+ to A-
I think sans pretty much hits the nail on this one, Marshtomp is so good right now, being Water/Ground and 4x weak to Servine is actually amazing much like Mudbray it is the best Servine and Rose lure and the best way to anticipate them coming in. Marshtomp is one of the best Stealth Rocks setter to have, it can deal with a large amount of rock setters and defoggers as well as blocking volturn teams. Marshtomp can also be super customisable in terms of spread and the coverage you want to use, it can be ran physdef or spdef depending on what your team needs to tank or weaken the most. It can run rest as recovery, access to status in Toxic and Yawn as well as Scald burns. Marshtomp is easily the best rocker in the metagame at the moment.

Monsareeasy said:
I've been spamming this thing in room tours for fun. This Pokemon merits a C/C+ ranking for sure.
Dino (Cranidos) @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Fire Punch
- Earthquake
- Zen Headbutt
- Rock Slide

Note: Jolly can also be used but also lacks some power. One of the main reasons to use Jolly is to outspeeds SPD Servine although i just go for ADA.

There are very few things that can switch into this pokemon. Great coverage and the highest legal attack stat. Cranidos also boasts an amazing ability in sheer force allowing it to with LO getting 2 noteworthy boosts while not taking LO damage unless using Earthquake. Cranidos also has another option in Rock Polish and SR but since it is frail and very few pokemon want to switch into it to begin with its hard. And even if you get a rock polish marsh or prinplup force you out. SO although it IS predictable once you have faced it once or twice you still can not switch into it. Its best answer Marshtomp is heavily pressured already by checking a possible monferno. But now it must switch in which means smth like monferno can sweep late game.

Agree Cranidos to C+
I'm not going to lie Cranidos is terrifying, on a web team or anything that allows it to attack first that thing is a threat. Whilst being super weak to priority this little dinosaur has such a good offensive pressure with coverage that hits literally all Pokemons in the metagame bar water-types. This mon has very few Pokemons that can stop it from getting a kill once in, its an easy wallbreaker and doesn't require a lot of plays once in, it just hits, hits and dies to let mons like Servine or else finish the job.

I'm not going to comment on Vullaby and Togetic personally because I've never seen a Vullaby in my life and NP Togetic has long left the metagame for me to say anything about it, however I'd really like to see replays of them.

Following up I'd like to get some mons dropping

Prinplup A- to B
Prinplup just doesn't function the same way it used to now that Servine and Roselia are present on pretty much every team. Prinplup's main role was to tank attacks, getting rid of hazards and setting up the rocks, a role that it can no longer manage as too many things can now switch in and take advantage of its passivity, it loses to Roselia which is the best hazard setter in the metagame and therefore can't function as a reliable defogger. Prinplup just is the biggest momentum killer in the tier, it is majorly outclassed by pokemons it used to outclass like Marshtomp and Wartortle.

Sliggoo A to B
Sliggoo used to be one of the top threat in the tier and still is the most reliable Servine counter but in this new and evolved metagame Sliggoo just doesn't function like it once used to. At the moment it's too passive to reliably set up, it loses to most threats especially with Spikes being so common now. The only use it has is to wall Servine and stop it from sweeping but this doesn't always happen. Sliggoo is just too passive in this metagame and just isn't on the same level as other A- ranked Pokemons.

and now my only nomination!

Machoke A to A+
I could probably set it up for S rank but I'm interested to see what other people would have to say about it. Machoke is definitely the best wallbreaker in the metagame, it doesn't have any walls and any team even if prepared will usually struggle against it if played well. This mon is a mini Gurdurr that just comes in and steals a kill, the only way to win against it is to outspeed and hit and only a few portion of the meta can ohko it even after being knocked off.

Miyami~~~ · Jul 22, 2019

Have some noms:

Clefairy: S > A+
Clef just isn't on the level of the other two S ranks in how it warps the metagame around itself. This is a very offensive metagame that relies a lot on putting pressure on the opponent's team to limit switchins, as things like Servine, Machoke are more than capable of outright winning games off of one opening, so fat Clef comes off as too passive right now despite doing a lot of things on paper. It also doesn't check nearly as much as it used to, with all of the top Pokemon in the tier either being able to muscle past it or using it for free turns (most notably Roselia. You do not want to be giving the best Pokemon in the tier free turns). CM Clef is also pretty bad right now due to being completely non-threatening while it sets up outside of trying to bulk through hits and taking too many turns to actually set up. It's still very good, but it's not what it once was and isn't nearly as good as Roselia or Servine.

Here's some replay examples. Clefairy was used 18 times in NFEPL week 1 and won 7 times. I'm going to note that while Roselia only won 50% of its matches as well, I'd gather that that's a result of both teams having Roses on them being very frequent and counting as both a win and a loss for it.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-945794819 - Clefairy vs Machoke seems like an excellent opener for Clef, but it does a paltry 39% to Machoke, gets its eviolite knocked off, and is actually forced out by the fighting type. It kills Gabite later in the match, but doesn't prevent it from getting rocks up, and is sac'd to Roselia.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-945811582 - attempts to check Machoke, loses its item, and dies to heavy slam the next turn.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-945894841 - Clef 1 doesn't check Machoke and gets rocks up rather than do anything else, and Clef 2 doesn't check Cyndaquil and dies to it without any fanfare. This counts as one of Clef's wins due to it being a Clef mirror, although neither of them actually impacted the battle in any way.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-945948010 - Clef actually does set up rocks here, and this is an interesting rocks/CM hybrid, but it doesn't amount to anything as Clef is taunted, fails to check Electabuzz, and is sac'd later on.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-946336370 - While running Psychic on Clef seems cute and my team has no less than four psychic-weak Pokemon on it, Clef gives Rose a free switchin and allows it to win the game for me.

Machoke: A > A+
I'd honestly call Machoke the third best Pokemon in the metagame right now. It's got just the right combination of moves and abilities to eat most of our fighting resists and is one of the hardest Pokemon to deal with defensively in the tier. It outright beats Clef 1v1 in nearly all scenarios, which is hilarious, and knock off prevents our crop of ghosts and poisons from switching in comfortably, because the chances of you checking this thing without an item are really low. On top of its extreme power, it's also incredibly bulky and is usually more than capable of creating switch-in opportunities for itself just by not dying, even without an item in some cases. You absolutely have to deal with it offensively, and the tier currently isn't very prepared to do that. More or less echoing Marjane here, this could be S. It's the most used Pokemon this week of NFEPL for a reason.

For replays, just check the spoiler for Clef.

Metang: A- > A
I'd personally call Metang the best offensive rocker in the tier, as it's one of our few rockers that actually keeps momentum when it goes in to set rocks, and happens to match up fairly well with the top tier of Pokemon right now. It's one of the best rose switchins and can consistently use it to get free rocks, while stopping Clef cold and doing not completely horribly vs Servine, although it does lose to it. Overall, if you want consistent rocks and actual offensive presence, Metang is one of the first Pokemon in the tier I'd recommend. It packed a 75% winrate in NFEPL, as well.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-946336370 - this may not have been rocks Metang, but it's still a good showing for it. Metang manages to force out Clef, and with a good read, force out the Mareanie switch and force a Clef sac, only to force out Mareanie again later to kill Roselia before finally cleaning up in the endgame.

Vullaby up and Togetic down, so long as Vullaby ends up above Togetic and Togetic ends up below both Vullaby and Staravia
I'm not going to sugarcoat this, Togetic is baaaaaaad. It's an okay defogger if you really need Defog and a fighting resist in one slot, but it doesn't really do anything. It doesn't have a useful ability, it's so incredibly passive that Machoke beats it 1v1 despite it quad resisting fighting because it doesn't actually threaten anything. It gives free turns to just about anything that moves since it can't U-Turn out of situations like Vullaby and Staravia both can to scout and generate momentum, and despite having a wide movepool, it doesn't really have anything great to go in the last slot. It doesn't even get Air Slash to threaten out Roselia, and is just overall bad right now. Like I said with Clef, you can't be giving free turns to anything in this meta right now, and that's more or less all Togetic does.

Vullaby, on the other hand, is criminally underrated right now. it's arguably got a better typing to handle the metagame than Togetic does (it's not weak to Poison and we don't have an offensive fairy), and while it is weak, access to both Knock Off and U-Turn are huge and lets it actually be somewhat threatening to the opposing team. Losing your item is huge in this tier as there's a lot of things in the meta (Machoke, CB Gabite, Servine) that can absolutely blow away teams off of one opening, and losing Eviolite creates even more openings. Vullaby's also Surprisingly fat (it takes about 30 from a Roselia sludge bomb, for example, and is at least a soft check to scarf frogadier regardless of the move it picks), and probably has to roost less often than Togetic does. And most importantly, since it actually does something, you can get rid of hazards while not instantly forfeiting all momentum to whatever thing the opponent has to scare out Togetic. imo it's better than both Togetic and Staravia as a defogger but I at least want it above Togetic.

Staravia essentially serves as a middle ground. It's not as all-around bulky as Vullaby or Togetic, although Intimidate does help, but it's the most offensively threatening of the three defog birds, which is definitely a nice addition, and still packs U-Turn to make it not a momentum suck. Probably still B+.

Two more noms I don't have as much to say on:

Prinplup: A- > B+
Does absolutely nothing to stop Rose or Servine from coming in in a meta where they dominate, and outside of not being as weak to grass it doesn't really have anything to offer over Marshtomp. As a Defogger it's still too passive and doesn't have reliable recovery, making it an inherently worse option than something like Vullaby unless you really need its set of resists.

Dusclops: B+ > B
Dusclops doesn't really do anything. Spreading burns is kind of cute, but it's reliant on moves like Seismic Toss or Night Shade to do any real damage and it's forced to resttalk way too much. In general, the kind of teams that would want a Dusclops just aren't very good right now, and I think Dusclops should drop to reflect that.

Also supporting Marshtomp to A-/B+, and Wartortle is bad.

vooper · Jul 22, 2019

Scapegoated Servine - A Metagame Post

Overview

In this first post, I will not be responding to any posts made by my favorite smoghorse Simbo or any others, I will merely be running down the tiering policy with a possible servine ban in mind. Tiering policy is what tiers use to determine whether a pokemon is ban worthy and will be linked here. Now let's jump right into it!

Uncompetitive

The tiering policy thread defines uncompetitive as "elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant." To ban servine under this definition you have to prove that the more skillful player loses games as a direct result of servine while also balancing it with the assumption in tiering policy that "Probability management is a part of the game." Now that that is laid out we have to examine the specific bullet points within the uncompetitive framework.

This can be matchup related; think the determination that Baton Pass took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team matchup issue, where even the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.
This can be external factors; think Endless Battle Clause, where the determining factor became internet connection over playing skill.
This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, evasion, or Moody, all of which turned the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.

1) Servine is no where near the same as baton pass and has numerous both defensive and offensive counters and checks, there is a lot of counterplay around servine and if the more skillful player wins on a set turn servine does not magically pull it back for the other persons team, assuming the more skilled player also has an equally good, if not better, team.

2) There are no external factors that influence whether servine should or should not be banned

3) This is the only place in the uncompetitive section of the tiering policy where servine could be considered ban worthy. However, as previously stated, probability management is a part of the game, and servine's usage of the move Glare is no where near the other listed issues. Not only do many servines not have the ability to even fit glare onto their sets, paralysis has been a part of pokemon for years and servine's counters can still get around it in nearly all cases, goinig against the usage of the words "almost always" that would be needed to ban serv. Also, servines main move, has a fairly high chance of missing, so if you chose to argue down this street you have to look at how the luck is fair on both sides, does not give one player an edge with removing skillful play, and that probability is a part of the game

Broken

Next, the tiering policy thread defines broken as "elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant. ". To ban servine under this definition you have to prove that a team without servine is worse than a team with servine or that servines counters are all niche. Now that that is laid out we have to examine the specific bullet points within the broken framework.

These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these elements and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage.
These also include elements whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere.
Uncompetitive and Broken defined like this tend to be mutually exclusive in practice, but they aren't necessarily entirely so.
- Baton Pass was deemed uncompetitive because of how drastically it removed battling skill's effects and brought the battle down to matchup, but it could also be deemed broken because of the unique ways in which you had to deal with it.
- While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter / check component. For example, Mega Kangaskhan was deemed broken because it was simply too good relative to the rest of the metagame and caused the tier to centralize around it, but it could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team matchup restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few obscure counters or checks for it.

1) Many teams do not run a servine and are still fine, while of course an S rank pokemon is splashable in the metagame, it is nowhere near required to use. If anything it is the opposite, when you have the servine vs servine mirrors is where you see battling skill come to play, and in situations where people use to use both rose/serv together they leave themselves open to pokemon elsewhere. This actually causes the metagame to have many diverse cores and offensive pokemon that can stand out on different teams.

2) There are both counters and checks to servine in the current meta. Fire types / haunter / coverage moves on frog are all popular, scarf staravia also exists on the offensive side. On the defensive side teams have grimer / rose / slig / toge. While with the right support and gameplay servine CAN break through these mons, it requires skillful play by the servine user to get to that point. Z moves and niche pokemon also exist to work around servine which is healthy for the meta. Servine does not fit into this category as there are checks and counters to servine that are not niche. If anything servine having some niche counters/checks and common counters/checks makes it healthier in the meta with more diversity and ideas to explore.

3) Servine is not comparable to baton pass or mega kanga because, while one could argue that servine is somewhat centeralizing, servine does not remove battling skill or have obscure checks and counters. I personally believe that there could be more room to explore with servines stats and calcs previously brought up, but servine cannot run all those sets and moves at the same time / its checks are already common in the meta / and S rank pokemon will have some degree of centralization to them inherently

Unhealthy

Finally, the tiering policy thread defines unhealthy as "elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent." Before I go into how to apply this to servine, I will first acknowledge that I personally will avoid using this at all costs as I take the wording of the tiering policy on it very seriously. The tiering policy thread states the following -

This is the most controversial and subjective one and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The Tiering Councils will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player.
When trying to argue a particular element's suspect status, please avoid this category unless absolutely necessary. This is a last-ditch, subjective catch-all, and tiering arguments should focus on uncompetitive or broken first. We are coming to a point in the generations where the number of threats is close to overwhelming, so we may touch upon this more often, but please try to focus on uncompetitive and broken first.

I do not believe for a second that banning servine will cause the better player winning over the lesser player at any higher rate nor that there is enough outcry for the ban to come close to calling for that. Now, to ban servine under an unhealthy definition you have to prove that a servine inhibits skillful play and is undesirable for the metagame to a point where it calls for this drastic of a ban. I would also like to reiterate that something cannot be both unhealthy and broken/uncompetitive by definition and for me to ever consider this I would need to see much more community outcry. Now, lets jump into the remaining parts of the unhealthy framework.

These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame.
This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good-to-great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized around a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity.

1) Going back to the previous things I have mentioned, probability management is part of the game and servine does require skill to pilot. Also, there are many offensive checks and defensive counters to servine, with Z moves and niche pokemon only increasing this list and the diversity in the meta. While in theory you could argue down this route, I will discourage anyone from doing this because unhealthy should be used sparingly if at all and a servine ban will not even have a provable positive impact on the meta later on. This specific section is vague for a reason, and while that could be used to justify a servine ban, the examples given in the older tiering policy for this section have been a ban on stealth rocks and scald, which cannot be compared to servine.

2) We are not and should not be adding Pokemon and servine ban does not fit inside the "too much diversity" framework. I doubt I need to say more here

tl;dr serv is really good in the meta but doesn't fit into the tiering policy definitions well enough for me to consider voting ban on it in the near future nor will I ever vote ban based on servine having a slim chance of fitting under unhealthy, which has been clearly stated to avoid using.

expect another post from me soonish responding specifically to simbo and others

viper, out o7

Hys · Jul 23, 2019

I, Like many others, disagree with the points brought up by prestigious NFE RO: Vooper in his post above.

the tiering policy thread defines uncompetitive as "elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

While there is no extreme degree that Servine is uncompettive, we've seen within NFEPL 3 a golden example of how Defog can break Servine. While the effect is in no way as strong as Defiant, the evasion boost can prove to be too much, causing any 100% accuracy move to fall to 75% accuracy.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-948359043
On turn 5, Servine was defogged upon, and gained it's evasion boost, and on turn 6, it dodged a knock off, sealing the game for Ktut.

Evasion boosting as a strategy is banned from regular Smogon-moderated play, and with Glare as a second possible moveslot the chances of actually hitting a move become less and less likely. Being unable to guarantee a hit Servine with most moves (Bar uncompetitive moves such as Aerial Ace, Feint attack and Swift) after a Defog brings Servine into an luck based, uncompettive position, especially in a meta where Rapid Spinners are not, in general, as competitively viable as Defoggers.

Defog isn't even the largest issue people need to deal with, Glare is a much more pressing issue
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-948971871
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-948980660

Both of these replays, played in the same BO3, had their win as a result of Servine clicking Glare, and receiving a full para on the turn that it needed, resulting in a full sweep. While Para in and of itself is a mechanic that can not be changed, is much more difficult to manage for Servine, as its main attacking move also acts as a boosting move, and can remove most non- 4X resisted Pokemon after a number of boosts. This allows Servine to muscle through its checks, based solely on a luck-based chance.

elements that are neither uncompetitive nor broken yet are deemed undesirable for the metagame such that they inhibit "skillful play" to a large extent.

I agree that Servine is not a "Broken" Pokemon, in the way Type: Null or Vig were banned in the past, due to the fact that it has more than 1 check to its sets. I think, however, that a more apt comparison would be to Gurdurr, a Pokemon banned for its uncompetitive nature.
While Gurdurr can 1v1 any pokemon and continue to sweep later in the game, Servine can win many matchups based solely on the coverage or utility moves loaded before the battle begins, from HP Ice + Knock dealing with Roselia and Vullaby, HP Fire dealing with Ferroseed, Glare crippling offensive checks, and Mirror Coat removing a possible check, there is no way of knowing what moveset Servine may be running from Team Preview. There are some commonalities between Gurdurr and Servine, however.
Gurdurr and Servine both:
-Warp the meta around themselves, mandating a minimum of TWO checks or one counter (See replay above, with RNG involved these checks may not even suffice)
- Cause normally unviable Pokemon to be suddenly viable in order to check them (Zubat, Salandit, Yanma and even Sliggoo for Servine, Featherdance Staravia for Gurdurr)
-Shut down archetypes (Contrary grants +1 speed to Servine under webs, and can glare for its team, neutralizing whatever advantage Webs has. while Gurdurr invalidated passive teams who were unable to break through its bulk.)
-Stifle metagame growth (Gurdurr invalidated Ghosts bar Haunter, Steel types such as Klang, Lairon, Dark types such as Vullably, Pawniard, Krok, while Servine invalidates Water types, such as Seadra, Prinplup and Wartortle Electric types, and Ground types)
-Prevent Pokemon of similar typing to shine (Machoke for Gurdurr, increased viability for Ferroseed, Quilladin and other grass types for Servine)

Reading through the arguments I've presented, it seems that Servine may in fact be more unhealthy for the meta than Gurdurr, as there are many less niche options capable of checking Servine. Servine can also luck (evasion or paralyze) possible checks to break through. For this reason, on behalf of the NFE community, I am hoping that we could receive a Servine Suspect after NFEPL finishes, to see the opinions of the (hopefully) highest caliber of players, and progress in the development of the metagame.

Thank you for reading my TED Talk. There are many more replays of Servine sweeping through teams through RNG or being impossible to prepare for, just ask Simbo for them.

TTK · Jul 23, 2019

Yo people I'm back with my second NFE post. I just want to get my own thoughts out regarding some topics. Hopefully this won't be long but I got 3 main points I would like to address.

First Point: Machoke

Recently, some users have nominated Machoke for A+ and I completely agree with that. Regarding Machoke, am I the only one that finds this mon really overwhelming? Base 100 Attack in a tier of LC/NFE mons is huge and having bulk means you hit hard and take hits reasonably well. Knock pretty much kills balance and defensive mons and Machoke starts at the minimum 2hkoing everything in the tier. Max physdef Marshtomp of all things gets 2hko'd after Knock by Close Combat and Marsh doesn't really harm Machoke at all. And it's not even like you can preserve Marshtomp in this case because Machoke has no reliable switch-ins and it just turns into "what to sack here" from my experience using it and playing against the mon. Am I saying Machoke is broken? Nope. Machoke is still slow and frail on the special side of things, especially Flame Orb Guts and can be easily pressured by faster mons after a Close Combat but out of all the wallbreakers in the tier, Machoke is by far the most dangerous one in my opinion and I do find it to be kinda unhealthy sometimes because when we have a somewhat lack of physdef walls and the fact that the ones we do have are reliant of Eviolite and Machoke invalidates that, it's quite scary sometimes.

Second Point: Servine

Whether or not I think Servine is banworthy or not, I won't say. I just want to address my opinions on this mon again because the last time I did, that was the second/third week of playing NFE and now that I'm in the fourth month of playing, I definitely think I got a good grasp of the meta and the mons within it. Anyway, Servine is an interesting one to tackle. Some people want it banned, notably Simbo (he's the only one really pushing for a suspect, ban or no ban verdict) and he has good reason to want a suspect. Servine is quite the dominating force in the metagame. Crazy bulk with loads of utility options in Knock Off, Defog, Glare and even screens (which I'm testing out atm) plus the killer Leaf Storm, which basically just lets Servine just wallbreak everything even without spatk investment. Servine is also pretty much on every team and is like the best glue mon in the tier, it just offers a good amount of role compression without much drawback.

Its main problem is kinda what I saw with Machoke. Spdef servine can knock anything in the tier then proceed to spam Leaf Storm and not particularly worry about dying unless you're facing its few actual checks like offensive Staravia and Fire-types. I will mention that people that are pro-ban relying on arguments like "run Sliggoo" or using unmon Zubat really just need to see the bigger picture. Like there is a side to it where "why should I run certain mons just to beat it?". Servine is kinda easy to handle offensively, Monferno and Busken being two mons that come to my head straightaway. It's really slower, more defensive teams that really struggle to deal with Servine because they have no answers for it. That's why I think balance and stall aren't particularly great archetypes thanks to Servine. Servine also restricts teambuilding to an extent where you're kinda forced to run a check to it or prepare to get 6-0'd. For example, webs are also pretty bad imo because overall suicide leads are meh and Servine is boosted by webs and just defogs. Pawniard may just come in but making the game a 6v5 from turn 1 is pretty bad.

Before I drag on, I'll summarise. Servine is a very strong mon. From seeing vooper and simbo debating on NFE showdown and Discord, I've managed to form a more stable opinion on the mon. I understand some points about its the end of the gen soon and banning Servine will cause a domino effect of suspects and that isn't practical but potentially keeping an unhealthy mon isn't practical either.

Third Point: Viability Rankings nominations

Zweilous UR to C-

I'm back with a niche nomination again but I think Zweilous deserves to be ranked. It's a pretty decent wallbreaker thanks to base 85 Attack coupled with Hustle and good dual STAB in Dark/Dragon and also has decent bulk with Eviolite to not submit easily. Obviously because I'm nominating it to C-, Zweilous does have a decent amount of flaws. Zweilous finds itself being completely walled by Togetic and Clefairy because Game Freak decided no Poison or Steel coverage. Lacking Knock Off hurts. Also, major competition from the other Dragons Fraxure, Gabite and Hakamoo because they are just more consistent because they don't miss plus they are faster. Here is a replay.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-948306078

: Cranidos may be a niche mon (says the guy that noms niche mons) but no one can deny the niche of one of the highest damage outputs in the tier. This mon is scary if you give it the chance to get in for free.

: Prinplup dropping is probably a good idea. There's like zero reason to use this mon in a Serv Rose meta because they just come in for free and make the Prinplup user lose heavy momentum. There's better defoggers eg Staravia that can actually capitalise against those two mons. Outside of hazard removal, it doesn't do much else either.

: Marshtomp is the goat rocker and definitely deserves a rise. It's just easy to fit on a team and Water/Ground is a amazing defensive typing and checks dangerous threats Monferno and Busken. It may lose to Serv and have no solid recovery but just pair it with pretty much anything that is a Serv check and its all gucci.

Before I end this post, just want to say I'm really enjoying NFEPL 3 and I got the best team in the tour, thanks for drafting me for 10.5k. It's been really fun building and playing this tier more because it's not the most active metagame but when a premier league starts, more people play and I love playing this tier. Don't mess with the Mafia!

Simbo · Jul 24, 2019

Aight, gonna respond to some stuff. Gonna preface this by saying that our esteemed TL Viper has confirmed there will be a suspect for Servine after NFEPL, so this is probably gonna be my last post on the subject til then. I wanna see what evidence NFEPL gives to both sides of the argument

Viper

Uncompetitive

Your points 1 and 2 do not apply to Servine, I agree with you there.
3) This is where Serv can apply to uncompetitive. You also acknowledge this. I admit, Glare isn't on the level of OHKOs, Evasion boosting or Moody. However, you vastly underestimate and underplay how significant Glare is in your point. From a building perspective, Servine runs Leaf Storm, Synth and then picks two from Knock Off/Hidden Power coverage/Glare and Fog. Disregarding a common move on Serv sets just cause 'not all of them can run it' is an awful call, from a building perspective, you have to account for all common sets. Para has always been a part of mon, and I agree that early game switching into Glare is similar to switching into a Twave from the likes of Clef or Kad, u can play sround this somewhat skillfully. However, late game is where probability management is thrown out of the window. You can preserve your check as well as you can lategame, but Servine can still break through with one/two paras, because Servine does in one turn what any other Pokemon would need at least 2-3 free turns to do. It attacks and +2 Spa's in one turn, and ensures the next attack will hit double as hard. No other Pokemon in the tier which can utilise para does this, this is why Serv's its own unique case and why Para induced free turns for Serv are so costly.
Your second point here 'Serv's main move has a fairly high chance of missing' is false, at least when comparing it to Glare. Servine has a 81% chance to hit two Leaf Storms. Servine has to get to the 6th Leaf Storm before the cumulative odds of hitting a Storm isnt in your favour. In comparison, Glare has a 25% chance of Para. The odds of getting double para is 12.5%, slightly higher than missing a Storm. More importantly, the odds of getting at least one Para across two consecutive turns is 43.75%. Not quite but almost a 50/50. In most cases, even that would be too low but Serv exploits a free turn so well, its far more significant than it sounds, and this leads me to my second point about Serv and Glare.
Serv's bulk is so good, it can avoid a lot of 2HKOs and fish and exploit paras much better than all other Pokemon in the tier. On the physical side, the only unboosted neutral attacks that 2HKO spdef Serv are Machoke CC, Fraxure Outrage, Lairon Head Smash and Cranidos Head Smash. Likewise, on the special side, its even better; it can avoid being 2HKOed by even uninvested SE STAB attacks. This makes Parafishing far easier for Serv, on top of how much it gains from one free turn.
Overall, I think your third point is pretty bad. The uncompetitive policy examples are extreme. Everything barring BP on that list gets banned at the start of every gen no questions asked. Trying to compare Glare to those examples is ridiculous.

Broken

1) They don't run Serv because they're running Rose. Serv and Rose combine to have around 70-80% usage in tours. Rose is, in my eyes and in the eyes of a lot of people in the comminuty, half the issue, and something your post completely fails to address. This is why most of my TP policy argument is based on unhealthy because Rosespikes is also arguebly busted. It's unfair to paint Servine as this scapegoat, it's not, it combines with Rose to create a very centralised meta. As stated in my ServRose post, I think both are unhealthy, but that Serv is the far better suspect, then gave TP points to support the suspect Serv cause. Secondly, ServRose is not a core lol, they shouldn't be on the same team and are not. I can prove this if need be. I use ServRose to describe the current meta, not to suggest they form a good core together.
2) I've addressed this in my previous two big posts
3) Same as point 2

Unhealthy

I'm not gonna lie. You and any anti-suspect argument which involves this policy in general are very lucky it does say to not use this unless necessary. It does limit how much I can put into this policy, even if I genuinely believe ServRose combine to create a very unhealthy meta. I stated my opinion on this a few posts ago, but to reiterate. Servine has elements to it which are uncompetitive and fit some of the bullet points for it. Likewise, Servine itself has elements which can be considered broken, in my eyes, its the raw defensive bulk combined with Contrary Leaf Storm, which is too good to the rest of the metagame. It doesn't need to fully and cleanly fit under one policy to suspect it.
Public outcry is something that will be a lot easier to measure after NFEPL.

This current point is a bit moot now that the suspect will happen but, all my arguments have been to suspect Serv, not ban it. I might've ironically said San Bervine a few times, but most of my posts talk about suspecting it. Your TP post relates to banning it. Right now, if you want to argue against my posts, the onus is on you to explain why these points aren't worthy of even suspecting serv. When the serv suspect happens, then the argument will shift to ban/no ban. Right now, I've only argued for a suspect.

Clarification

Just wanna clarify some stuff I've been seeing pop up in this debate recently. Firstly, the definition of check and counter, by smogon standards.
Pokémon A checks Pokémon B if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into Pokémon B, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
Pokémon A counters Pokémon B if Pokémon A can manually switch into Pokémon B and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
For clarification, I consider the speed drop by Glare to not be hax, although any Para is hax.

The issue with a lot of offensive counterplay against Serv is its speed tier. 291 negates non-scarf Monf and Star as offensive counterplay, which is massive. In addition, with access to both Knock and Glare, no offensive serv check can safely switch into it without potentially losing its ability to check serv and/or its revenge killing abilities. Glare speed drop also makes it susceptible to getting blown away by boosted serv later in the game. Likewise, Serv can both break through defensive counterplay or prevent said counterplay from beating serv unless carrying specific moves (eg, toxic on toge and metang). You need defensive glare/knock/storm switchins and offensive counterplay just for serv. On top of this, a lot of defensive serv checks are free spikes for rose, the other S rank grass. Barring Vullaby and Zubat, all hazard removal has a bad matchup against one or both. On top of what just Serv requires, you've also gotta prep for or have counterplay for choke, everything in A+ etc etc.

But yh, since the suspects happening, I'm gonna leave the argument here til after NFEPL. Highly interested to see what ppl think about this issue tho, its clearly contentious. Any opinion, regardless of what side you're on or if you're neutral, would be appreciated imo.

Mirbro · Jul 25, 2019

This is my first post in NFE tier. I have recently moved to this tier and, trying to build a stall team (as always) I checked for all the possible sweepers that were steamrolling around. Not having an Unaware user scared me when I saw different fast SD users... but Servine just broke the mould. In this post I will not write down a long list of arguments but just a summary of what I think is absolutely correct about the discussion that we have seen above.

1) Any Pokémon in NFE that can boost and use Knock Off at the same time is a great and very viable. Servine does it easily.
2) Of course, Servine has a good bulk (basically in sp. def part) and it has an average speed that allows it to be faster than many of its shaky counters.
3) Its checks can be stopped with a pair of Pokémon that, moreover, they will add some hazards in the field to help Servine break through with 1-2 Leafstorms.
4) If you add Roselia to Servine in your team, it helps stopping opposing Servines but also your Servine for a possible sweep with hazards.
5) This makes not Servine but RoServ a core that is, in my opinion, absolutely unhealthy. This core centralize NFE completely. In any game you can observe some Pokémon in the opponent's field which can "tank" Servine in some way (or some turns). Normally this slot is for Roselia because it will help you with Spikes against any fat team.
6) If adding Spikes makes your opponent Defog or Rapid spin, this gives Servine an easy switch-in receiving a turn against for example Wartortle or receiving a boost in evasion.
7) Different sets make some checks/counters unviable provoking that many teams have 2 ways to deal with Servine (Roselia + something else) and Servine itself.

With these words I can conclude that, at least, Servine is suspect worthy. I would need more some games to try to clarify my final opinion about Ban/ Not ban although from my words one can see my road.

Uncompetitive

Agreed with 1) and 2) that were brought by Vooper. However, the third one I also agree that is a bit hazy. Servine with Synthesis can come some times trying to Knock Off the check/counter that opponent will bring and then switch out. Next time that comes into the field, Servine can Glare and again switch-out or just play Leafstorm odds. In a tier in which KOff is so useful and many Pokémon can run it, a Pokémon that can boost itself in one turn at +2 using a high base power with STAB attack and playing the parahax strategy is, in my opinion, something that is not uncompetitive itself but it is near to.

Broken

One can play without Servine and still win. But playing without any dedicated check/counter to Servine is practically a total loss against it. Moreover, although you run some checks/counters you need to be really aware and careful to not get KOffed/para because then it is easy to get Servine steamroll your team. Luckily, some of these checks/counters are useful besides their ability to stop Servine (like Roselia). So there is no need to have a Pokémon that its only utility is a niche for checking/counter Servine. However, it is not difficult to deal/weaken these Pokémon for a late game sweeping of Servine. With Roserv core is "pretty easy" to do so.

Unhealthy

And just to finish I would like to say that this point is what I think makes Servine a possible ban (?) in the suspect. The utility that it has + Roselia being there makes the teambuilding really restrictive. If you do not take into consideration these two Pokémon when building your team you will be in a disadvantage. Furthermore, the easy way to go is using Roselia for hazards and as a counter/check to Servine but also using Servine being helped by Spikes from Roselia. Then you can add Mareanie to help for the physical part + Regen + KOff + fire counter and you have an incredible core that in both usage and capabilities is overwhelming. Add Clefairy for TWave + Rocks + KOff and then you have splashed 4 mons in the high rankings in a team and they work together pretty cool. One scarf for revenge killing if necessary and some other just for differentiate between teams.

Thanks for reading and I will be glad to participate in this suspect :].

Simbo · Jul 27, 2019

Gonna do some VR responses, and do some cleanup lower rank noms

Agree with:

Comb: A to A-
Whirl: C+ to B-
Vib: C to C+
Vull: C to B
Mudbray: C+ to B-
Marshtomp: B to A-
Cran: UR to C
Prin: A- to B
Slig: A to B
Choke: A to A+
Clef: S to A+
Dusc: B+ to B

Disagree with:

Tentacool: UR to B

There's two big issues with tenta. First is no recovery, and second is that its phys bulk is so poor passing wishes to it in the first place is very difficult. As a spinner, I do think its completely outclassed by tort, and even tort isnt that good rn. There's better CM Clef counters, even tort can somewhat shut it down with Haze, if you really need a spinner that doesn't give free setup for Clef. It also doesnt prevent Rosespikes, since it needs a lot of Acid Spray drops to even threaten Rose with special attacks, plus if Rose keeps spamming Spikes, its forced to keep spinning, or risk Acid Spraying a switchin which threatens it out while Spikes are still on the field.

Jigglypuff: UR to C-

i think Puffs completely outclassed by Licki unfort. Puff's Fairy typing is more of a detriment than a help here imo. Monf and busk set up on it anyway and Choke has Heavy Slam. On top of that, being weak to super popular Poisons is not good.

Rose and Serv: S to S+

I don't think S+ is necessary rn. Clef is definitely a step lower than ServRose. It should move down imo.

Poliwhirl: UR to B

Poli is outclassed by Croc and Marill imo. As a BD sweeper with no good prio, its speed tier just isnt high enough. Still gets revenged by Haunt, Frog, Buzz, Kad etc. Z hypno bd is cute but ppl know most polis are BD, they wont switch out unless they can afford to. Plus the odds of setting up Z hypno and BD is 40%, not even in your favour.

Togetic: Moving from B+

Miyami heavily underestimates offensive toge. Defensive Defog sets are massive momentum killers and free turn givers, but offensive toge is really underrated rn. Both NP and 3 attacks Roost are very difficult to switch into, and they play off ppl expecting defensive Toge so well. 3 attacks is a great early game breaker and steel or rose lure. Fast NP is a solid wallbreaker and toges raw bulk is so good you can easily invest in speed, even to the point where u can outspeed Rose and Choke. I don't think its A- worthy yet, but definitely doesn't deserve to go lower than B+.

My own noms:

Gloom: B to C

Mons dogshit. 4 total usage across Best Friends, No Johns and NFEPL so far is not the sign of a B ranked Pokemon which fulfils a desired niche. I could find Unranked mons with higher usage. ServRose account for like 75% of grass usage. From the other 25%, theres a long list of other Grasses to use before you get to Gloom: Quil, Ferro, Tang, even Ivysaur. Its niche of being a physdef wall with Strength sap is no longer needed. Free Rose Spikes too and loses to Serv a lot easier as a quad resist grass, its not good.

Salandit: C+ to UR

This was San's mon in NFEPL 2. It hasn't been seen since.

Shelgon: C+ to UR

It's only real niche was bulky wishpasser on stall. Stall is really bad rn, and the few stall teams I have seen don't even use Shelgon. Again, a niche that's no longer needed.

Spritzee: C to UR

Similar to Shelgon, only niche was taunt/encore immune wishpasser on Stall. However, Taunt isn't common enough to justify using Sprit over Clef. Clef has better utility and Magic Guard. As an NP user, its completely outclassed by Toge.

Yanma: C to UR

No clue how this made it to C in the first place.

D2TheW · Jul 27, 2019

Simbo said:
Tentacool: UR to B

There's two big issues with tenta. First is no recovery, and second is that its phys bulk is so poor passing wishes to it in the first place is very difficult. As a spinner, I do think its completely outclassed by tort, and even tort isnt that good rn. There's better CM Clef counters, even tort can somewhat shut it down with Haze, if you really need a spinner that doesn't give free setup for Clef. It also doesnt prevent Rosespikes, since it needs a lot of Acid Spray drops to even threaten Rose with special attacks, plus if Rose keeps spamming Spikes, its forced to keep spinning, or risk Acid Spraying a switchin which threatens it out while Spikes are still on the field.

Ok I have a lot of issues with this. First of all, while Tentacool really benefits from wish passing, it's not absolutely required because Tenta's role is not that to be a wall throughout the game. Though it can help with that, it's main role is to come in on something that it easily sponges, mostly special attackers and spin away their hazards and it's main niche is that it can do this to Roselia. Let's look at the other rapid spinners available.
Wartortle: Grass weak
Sandshrew: Grass weak
Sandshrew A: Not bad actually but if it ever sees enough usage to be an issue for Rose, you can just run HP fire. Also invites in MonBusken like nothing else
Shellder: Grass weak, shit SpDef
Staryu: Grass Weak
Kabuto: 4x Grass weak
Pineco: Not awful but shit SpDef so it struggles with Sludge Bomb
Tyrogue: Just a shit mon
Baltoy: You could do worse cos it has decent SpDef and super effective stabs but Grass weak so struggles to switch in
Anorith: Not the worst but not great either
Drilbur: Grass weak
Bergmite: Not awful but shit SpDef
Steenee: Poison weak

Nothing else can really do what Tenta can and those that might suffer from similar issues: No recovery and/or spikes fodder. Except Tenta isn't really set up fodder for rose because it can do a multitude of things to fuck with it and it's switches.
Acid Spray wittles away at it and forces it to either get out or burn through synthesis pp(so no/less spikes either way) as well softening anything that switches in for your team
Knock off also softens it up and nothing wants to switch in on knock.
Scald isn't great but is nice for punishing most steel switches like Pawniard or Lairon with a potential burn
Magic Coat means you don't have to spam spin and can get up spikes of your own forcing them to deal with them
Toxic Spikes means you're not just wasting turns stopping spikes and applying pressure of your own.
Infestation stops them from switching and gives some nice residual if they want to force you to spam spin. Pairs well with Acid Spray
Sludge Bomb gives more consistent damage and doesn't fuck you over if they switch in Serv for a SpDef boost from Acid Spray (which still does a decent chunk to serv without investment)
HP fire: Does a decent bit to Rose in combo with Acid Spray and/or Knock off, hurts steels that want to switch into Spray. Also stops Ferro setting up hazards on you which is nice.
Rain Dance: As Tentacools big brother showed in BW, passive recovery on a mon like this can make it a lot harder to deal with and if you want to run a dedicated rain team than Tenta is you're best option for a spinner by far. Also nerfs Roses synthesis recovery which is nice.
Now it goes without saying that you can't run all of these, especially since you've always got one slot taken by spin, but Tentacool evidently has a myriad of ways to fuck with Rose and it's switches. The comment about Clef is weird, obviously some other things deal with Clef better but it deals with it perfectly satisfactorily and I don't see why not being the very best counter to an S tier mon should be points against it (and it is a good counter to be clear, acid spray destroys Clef, moonblast doesn't scratch you and unless Clef runs tbolt or psychic they're not doing much to you and that's a valuable moveslot taken up). You say that some mons can switch in and exploit tentacool, scaring it out and such but all of the types it's weak to (electric, psychic and ground two of which don't like Knock and Scald) have to contend with immune switch ins and you can easily turn them into momentum. It's far from flawless don't get me wrong and maybe I value it's niche more than others because I like using hazard stack a lot and therefore value spinners more but this meta has a shit-ton of spikes so it is a useful niche. B- might fit better or C+ at a minimum but there's not a doubt in my mind that it should be on the VR and it's better than the shit in C and C-

Speaking of C- we come to Jigglypuff. Look, I'm not gonna act like this is a meta defining threat or that it has great MUs in the meta but it has an unreal amount of utility and the bulk to use it. For crying out loud I'm nomming it to C-. Voltorb is in that tier for fuck sake. What can the living pokeball do? Set screens and volt switch? Be the weakest specs Mon in the history of Pokemon? Seriously. Jiggs can set up screens and rocks and even pass a wish to whatever is gonna make use of them. It even has seismic toss for consistent damage instead of the weakest tbolts outside of Little Cup. I refuse to believe that Jiggs is worse than Voltorb so I maintain my nomination. Jigglypuff to C-
(And btw while Lickitung does have better offensive potential and a better typing even it doesn't come close to Jiggs amount of utility.)

TTK · Jul 27, 2019

There's a lot here to take in cuz we got relatively large paragraphs but I honestly agree with Simbo and can't agree with your reasonings for tenta to be ranked.

D2TheW said:
Ok I have a lot of issues with this. First of all, while Tentacool really benefits from wish passing, it's not absolutely required because Tenta's role is not that to be a wall throughout the game. Though it can help with that, it's main role is to come in on something that it easily sponges, mostly special attackers and spin away their hazards and it's main niche is that it can do this to Roselia.

Tentacool is supposed to be this "special sponge" yet it struggles to handle a good amount of our top special attackers (Kadabra, Servine, Ebuzz) and not to mention the low HP alongside with terrible defence means Tentacool is not even that bulky. Only beating one mon (Roselia) isn't a reason to get something ranked. It's akin to people wanting to rank Zubat for example because it has a quarter resistance to Servine's Leaf Storm.

D2TheW said:
Wartortle: Grass weak
Sandshrew: Grass weak
Sandshrew A: Not bad actually but if it ever sees enough usage to be an issue for Rose, you can just run HP fire. Also invites in MonBusken like nothing else
Shellder: Grass weak, shit SpDef
Staryu: Grass Weak
Kabuto: 4x Grass weak
Pineco: Not awful but shit SpDef so it struggles with Sludge Bomb
Tyrogue: Just a shit mon
Baltoy: You could do worse cos it has decent SpDef and super effective stabs but Grass weak so struggles to switch in
Anorith: Not the worst but not great either
Drilbur: Grass weak
Bergmite: Not awful but shit SpDef
Steenee: Poison weak

I don't really see the need to mention other Rapid Spinners that no one uses anyways. The only ones worth taking note of are Wartortle, Staryu and Drilbur tbh and sure, you make it your point these spinners can't deal with Rose compared to Tentacool but overall, they're better pokemon and outside of attempting to check Rose, Tenta does zero to anything else.

D2TheW said:
Acid Spray wittles away at it and forces it to either get out or burn through synthesis pp(so no/less spikes either way) as well softening anything that switches in for your team
Knock off also softens it up and nothing wants to switch in on knock.
Scald isn't great but is nice for punishing most steel switches like Pawniard or Lairon with a potential burn
Magic Coat means you don't have to spam spin and can get up spikes of your own forcing them to deal with them
Toxic Spikes means you're not just wasting turns stopping spikes and applying pressure of your own.
Infestation stops them from switching and gives some nice residual if they want to force you to spam spin. Pairs well with Acid Spray
Sludge Bomb gives more consistent damage and doesn't fuck you over if they switch in Serv for a SpDef boost from Acid Spray (which still does a decent chunk to serv without investment)
HP fire: Does a decent bit to Rose in combo with Acid Spray and/or Knock off, hurts steels that want to switch into Spray. Also stops Ferro setting up hazards on you which is nice.
Rain Dance: As Tentacools big brother showed in BW, passive recovery on a mon like this can make it a lot harder to deal with and if you want to run a dedicated rain team than Tenta is you're best option for a spinner by far. Also nerfs Roses synthesis recovery which is nice.
Now it goes without saying that you can't run all of these, especially since you've always got one slot taken by spin, but Tentacool evidently has a myriad of ways to fuck with Rose and it's switches. The comment about Clef is weird, obviously some other things deal with Clef better but it deals with it perfectly satisfactorily and I don't see why not being the very best counter to an S tier mon should be points against it (and it is a good counter to be clear, acid spray destroys Clef, moonblast doesn't scratch you and unless Clef runs tbolt or psychic they're not doing much to you and that's a valuable moveslot taken up). You say that some mons can switch in and exploit tentacool, scaring it out and such but all of the types it's weak to (electric, psychic and ground two of which don't like Knock and Scald) have to contend with immune switch ins and you can easily turn them into momentum. It's far from flawless don't get me wrong and maybe I value it's niche more than others because I like using hazard stack a lot and therefore value spinners more but this meta has a shit-ton of spikes so it is a useful niche. B- might fit better or C+ at a minimum but there's not a doubt in my mind that it should be on the VR and it's better than the shit in C and C-

It's great and all, listing all these moves Tentacool can run but I'm remembering it only can run 4 moves. It doesn't have the space to run all these moves. The ones you're definitely keeping are Knock Off and Scald because they are the most useful moves and you mention Acid Spray as well so only 1 move left which is Rapid Spin in order to stop Rose in its tracks. There was no need to list moves it cannot utilise most of the time anyway and I think you're heavily overestimating this mon's capabilities. Sure our lower ranks need some fixing because some of them are useless most of the time but saying Tentacool is better than Eelektrik, Nidorino, Seadra (which I tried so hard to get ranked LOL), Weepinbell and Vullaby is just false. Even if it somehow got ranked, it's no higher than C- imo.

In terms of the Jigglypuff nom, I'm all for nominating niche and/or very niche mons but Jigglypuff just looks awful. The only thing bulky about Jiggly is the HP stat. Eviolite can't even help 20/25 base Defence/Special Defence. Having pretty much no useful resistances apart from Dark, Jigglypuff can barely handle any of our wallbreakers. If you go Spdef, the Fighting types just bop you and if you go physdef, special attackers just bop you plus there's better screeners (Servine, Metang) and better rockers (Marshtomp, Clefairy) who are faster and offer better defensive utility not to mention you're slower than even Dusclops so you're gonna die before setting screens or whatever you want to do with this mon.

Tack · Jul 27, 2019

D2TheW said:
Ok I have a lot of issues with this. First of all, while Tentacool really benefits from wish passing, it's not absolutely required because Tenta's role is not that to be a wall throughout the game. Though it can help with that, it's main role is to come in on something that it easily sponges, mostly special attackers and spin away their hazards and it's main niche is that it can do this to Roselia.

alright, sure. you can sponge up rose decently and spin on it, however without wish support you have the same issue every single spinner has, that you don't have reliable recovery, and on top of that thanks to both your terrible physical bulk and terrible offensive and utility capabilities beyond being able to spin on rose you have worse matchups in current meta than wartortle, which isn't a good pokemon right now. the only pokemon that tenta has a solid matchup vs other than rose are combusken and monferno, and only the SPA variants of these mons. they are the only things it can switch into without getting crippled or flat out beaten in the A ranks and above. also if you argue clef can be beaten by this you get kncoked/twaved for free.

D2TheW said:
Let's look at the other rapid spinners available.
Wartortle: loses to one more grass than tenta but actually has bulk+better utility movepool letting it have more winnable matchups among top mons
Sandshrew: Unranked and bad, but can in theory threaten some of the rockers decently, while tenta is locked to getting a scald burn to even pretend to do that
Sandshrew A: fire bait, but can easily run earthquake to prevent busken/monf coming in for free, also still unranked lol
Shellder: unranked and bad
Staryu: 2hko's the entire meta on switchin

Kabuto: unranked and bad
Pineco: sets every hazard except for webs, also unranked
Tyrogue: your original analysis was spot on
Baltoy: unranked and bad
Anorith: unranked and bad
Drilbur: unranked and bad, and even if it were ranked it wouldn't be for spinning capability
Bergmite: unranked and bad, but has reliable recovery
Steenee: unranked and bad.

so based on this, if you cherrypick your arguement and ignore both how shit spin is in haunter meta, and that defog removes hazards, tentacool looks like it doesn't have much competition, however said competition is staryu, which is an offensive powerhouse, and wartortle, which has significantly better matchups thanks to its ability to not lose to fires despite being a defensive water type.

D2TheW said:
Nothing else can really do what Tenta can and those that might suffer from similar issues: No recovery and/or spikes fodder. Except Tenta isn't really set up fodder for rose because it can do a multitude of things to fuck with it and it's switches.
Acid Spray
Knock off
Scald
Magic Coat
Toxic Spikes
Infestation
Sludge Bomb
HP fire
Rain Dance
Rapid Spin

so wait, if you run 9 different moves it becomes semiusable? jeez i better go grab mareanie and give it tspikes/recover/scald/knock off/sludge bomb/haze/magic coat/infestation with regenerator to do everything tenta does but better. even ignoring the terrible logic for even arguing a mon has 9 moves it can run being a good thing for it, everything you listed except spin is done better by mareanie, and spin gets blocked. I'd always rather a defogger to a spinner that can't beat subwisp haunter.

D2TheW said:
It's far from flawless don't get me wrong and maybe I value it's niche more than others because I like using hazard stack a lot and therefore value spinners more but this meta has a shit-ton of spikes so it is a useful niche. B- might fit better or C+ at a minimum but there's not a doubt in my mind that it should be on the VR and it's better than the shit in C and C-

yeah sure, spinning is better in theory on hazard stack, however in practice it's almost always better to just sacrifice the hazards on the other side, as all of our good spikers can come in multiple times, but this thing is not better than anything in c- lol, much less even with them.
graveler traps stuff and sets rocks, grotle is a grass type rocker, and has decent matchups, magnemite traps stuff, palpitoad is a solid offensive rocker that doesn't let any removal in for free, riolu should probably be unranked but has some prankster shenanigans, and voltorb is the best screen setter, no contest. tentacool is a bad spinner that loses to every hazard setter except for roselia 100% of the time, and can't threaten our spinblockers in any way. not only that, but everything except its terrible inability to spin is completely outclassed by mareanie.

Tentacool UR>UR thanks!

as for jiggs it's just lickitung with rocks worse bulk and a worse typing, in practice you wouldn't run screens on it because it's just too slow to do that effectively, as for rocks, you wouldn't ever want to run it on lickitung over heal bell or stoss, so jiggs doesn't really seem worth ranking either

Combusken A to A-: seems fine honestly
Whirlipede: C+ to B-: absolutely, not only is it a phenominal spiker, it's also a viable check to machoke
Vibrava C to C+: Disagree, this mon has always heavily underperformed in my testing
Vullaby C to B: Agree, reliable knock, answers silv and rose in 1 slot thanks to brave bird, semi check to our fightings, i like it a lot
Marshtomp B to A-: sure, Marshtomp has shown itself to be an incredibly reliable bulky water despite the omnipresence of servrose, the ability to set rocks and blanket check whichever side of the meta you choose cannot be overstated
Cranidos UR to C: this thing is a pretty strong breaker, if it gets in and picks the right move you lose a pokemon, i think this is a fine rank for it.
Prinplup Down: sure
Sliggoo Down: this mon was way overhyped at the thime in all honesty, move this the hell down.
Machoke A to A+: I'd argue S, but this is a fine move for now

Jho · Jul 27, 2019

Through learning this meta by playing in Best Friends and now NFEPL, I've got some opinions on the VR and some cool niche mons that I think are actually really good:

Machoke A to A+: Agree
Machoke in this tier is so hard to switch into, mostly because the combination of Knock Off + Fighting coverage + anyway to hit fairies, which Machoke has in Heavy Slam, makes it extremely difficult to switch in to. Pokemon such as Marshtomp, Quiladin and Clefairy, as well as other blanket phys def walls heavily rely on their eviolite in order to check Machoke, forcing really unfavourable situations where you have to sacrifice something else to Knock Off, before going to your respective check to take the CC/Dyanmic Punch. Needless to say, offensive checks are also very limited as its bulk is also respectable so even if something like a Monferno can switch into a CC, it can't do enough damage back to really threaten it. This means that typically, outside of Pokemon such as Gloom and Tangela which can check Choke without their eviolties, outplaying and catching Machoke on a coverage move is the best counterplay which says for itself how good Machoke is. The way the meta has changed to adapt to the spam of Servine has pushed frailer, faster teams to the forefront in order to take advantage of Roselia's spikes, which Machoke prays upon as the Pokemon this meta emphasises using (Monferno, Electabuzz, Clef, Rose, Servine, Haunter, Mareanie etc) find it very difficult to not only switch into Machoke, but also revenge kill it cleanly, making it an insane threat.

Clefairy S to A+: Agree
There's no doubt that Clef is one of the best and most versatile Mons in the meta, between defensive rocks and CM variants it threatens a huge portion of the meta and can set rocks on the majority of the best removal options, unlike Pokemon such as Monferno. So what makes Clefairy not as good as it used to be? Simply put, everything Clefairy looks to check is running sets which allows them to beat it. They have to fear Z fire from Monerno, Z steel from Fraxure etc. Poison types are also more prevalent than ever in the metagame, due to Servine. Grimer, Mareanie and Roselia can all deal with most Clefairy variants and typically hard wall it. Whilst sets utilising Psyshock have been seen (cough vooper cough), they are still very niche and trade either its ability to set rocks or Paralysis utility, which makes it much freer to switch in to with things such as Pawniard and Metang. These metagame shifts mean that Clefairy is just not on the same level as Roselia and Servine in their current state, warranting a drop-down from S.

Gloom B to C: Disagree, B-
Whilst Gloom has some stiff, stiff competition in its slot, it has a pretty strong niche in being able to check Pokemon such as Machoke and Krookodile even after knock off. Strength Sap allows it to wall them forever and it can still act as an OK Serv check, albeit it does not have the added utility of Spikes that rose does which is a huge downside. I Consider Gloom in situations where I need the typing and added defensive utility over its access to spikes, and in these situations, I prefer it over Ivysaur due to its ability to check Physical threats better thanks to its slightly better phys bulk, and strength sap. Whilst I agree it does not compare favourably to a lot of the other Bulky Grass-types in the tier on paper, B- seems fitting for a Pokemon with a valid niche over a Pokemon in C.

One of my own

Eelektrik C to B-
I have SPAMMED this mon so much its so good right now. Its sheer utility with Knock Off + Slow U-turn makes a great pivot, coupled with its respectable special bulk and obviously good resist pallet. Whilst being a pretty solid blanket special pivot, it also is one of the best checks to Electabuzz which is also really good right now. I think the only reason Eelektrik isn't even better is because of its somewhat limited movepool, meaning you typically have to run something like Super Fang or Acid Spray in its last slot, which is less than ideal. Now because the set compendium for some ungodly reason has Wild Charge on Eelektrik's set, I will bestow upon you a trade secret.

Code:

Eelektrik @ Eviolite  
Ability: Levitate  
EVs: 168 HP / 252 SpD / 88 Spe  
Calm Nature  
- U-turn  
- Knock Off  
- Super Fang  
- Discharge

Seeing Wild Charge on this things set baffled me as it wants to preserve HP wherever possible, with it having no way to recover by itself. Discharge > Wild Charge in this last slot also gives it additional utility in the form of potential paralysis, which can help in situations where they didn't go hard Rose and can just Natural Cure it off.

I'll probably post more later but for now, these are my thoughts after playing this meta for a reasonable amount of time now.

SBPC · Jul 27, 2019

Hey, first NFE post, felt it was time to throw my hat in the ring on a hot topic, so here goes.

Servine

Servine is not in any way broken or ban worthy. Servine has an immense amount of checks that have no issue finding ways in, bar the fear of Glare, but I'll address that in a second. The growing attention to mons like Haunter and Vullaby to answer Servine is in my opinion a healthy adaptation for the meta. Vooper in a previous post stated how Servine does not fit the tiering policy in terms of being ban worthy, and playwise, it holds true. In the builder, checking servine simply comes down to making sure I have something that can take Knock + a single Leaf Storm, and take it down with at least a guaranteed 2hko. This usually is enough to check it multiple times, and with ServRose being as commonly complained about as I see it on forum and discord, it's far easier to handle than discussion would have you think. ServRose can be manhandled by a good selection of mons, including Vullaby, Staravia, Magmar, Monferno, Combusken, and so on. And furthermore, the aforementioned birds in Vullaby and Staravia can cleanly defog away hazards while still threatening Servine. Now, for Glare. Glare on paper is an absolutely busted move on the same levels of strength sap, but by no means is it enough to push this mon over the deep end. Glare is an amazing tool yes, but that doesn't mean we can't flip it on it's head.

I present to you, Machoke. Machoke is already incredibly difficult to switch into, and using Servine's glare against it by triggering guts and becoming even harder to switch into than normal, bar the chance to full para.

Lastly, Servine as a whole has shown a layer of good health for the metagame, giving a lot of great adaptations and discoveries, such as the many mentioned Vullaby, getting much more popular over the past couple of weeks, along with the presence of new ideas like using Machoke to abuse it's toolkit against it. As an addition, Servine encourages a large amount of team diversity, since in the long run of things, you'll have to run checks to its checks when using it, which can result in some pretty creative and unorthodox teams being created.

Overall, Servine is a potent threat that is consistent in the metagame, but despite being very powerful, is still very capable of being taken without any form of over-prepped building.

Jett · Jul 28, 2019

Crystal’s ORAS Midseason Nominations

With most of the discussion on NFE being about RoseServ, nominations with SM and NFEPL, I thought I’d chime in with my thoughts on ORAS NFE after the first 2 weeks and give the tier a little love.

I think the most part the viability rankings we first produced were generally accurate and reflected the meta we would have in ORAS. Machoke is by far the best mon in the tier but it’s not that suspect worthy as there is a lot of counterplay (as there are a plentiful of mons which can revenge kill it and even some which can somehow wall it) making a healthy balance within the tier. As for the styles which are used, there has been more balance in ORAS NFE when compared to SM and this subtle different helps add to diversify the two tiers. Archetypes have remained generally quite similar between the two tiers with there being a greater focus on bulky setup sweepers.

I would, however, like to put some nominations for the ORAS VR forward to help update the resources a little.

Dusclops A- to B+, I honestly don’t think I’ve seen it outside of one Stall team, which as an archetype which sucks and literally was one of the worse mons on that team, and as a sun setter. I think that Will-O-Wisp is still cool especially pre nerf burn in Gen 6 but it really struggles to do anything outside of that. It’s way harder to fit onto teams than any of the other A- mons and it’s just way too passive having many of the same flaws as Ferroseed which offers more utility.

Sliggoo A- to B+, Sap Sipper ability isn’t really required as much like in SM, due to there being no Servine. Whilst it definitely does still excel at being a Special wall, it’s not as splashable as all the A- mons (apart from clops) and it’s unreliable at being able to sweep through teams with the Curse set. I think this mon is more in line with the Pokemon in B+ such as Combusken and Hippo who perform certain niches extremely well, whilst having slight value outside of that niche.

Fraxure B to B+, Whilst at first glance, the loss of Stomping Tantrum seems to hurt this mon a lot, it doesn’t matter nearly as much as both Mareanie and Alolan Grimer didn’t exist. It still has the coverage to tear through teams with Iron Tail or Poison Jab hitting Fairy-types and Superpower hitting Steels for super effective damage. Both the Dragon Dance and Swords Dance set are terrifying to face against and Fraxure is very similar to Machoke where the switchins are very limited.

Marshtomp B to B+, Without the best Monferno check (Mareanie) from SM and without Servine being present, it’s pretty obvious that Marshtomp is a bit low on the VR. It’s also one of the better Rocks setters there are and it’s typing is extremely valuable as a Volt Switch absorber. Whilst it’s lack of recovery sucks, this is the case for bulky waters we have and I think Marshtomp and Prinplup are in line with each other (although performing slightly different roles) and should be the same rank.

Tangela B- to B, Tangela is the best Machoke counter. This calc pretty much sums it up:

252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 79-94 (23.6 - 28.1%) -- 91.6% chance to 4HKO

Not only that but Tangela is great at offering support to the team as Regenerator and reliable recovery allows it to consistently wall physical threats, whilst moves like Sleep Powder and Knock Off aid its teammates. I think these factors combined make Tangela outclass any of the B- mons and should be moved up

Pikachu B- to somewhere in C, I’m honestly not very sure about this one as I’ve never seen it be brought but it just doesn’t seem to fit in B- in a meta where balance and bulky offense looks extremely good. The Belle costume looks cool with Icicle Crash but sacrifices E speed and Volt Tackle whilst the standard still hits hard but is countered quite easily with the bulkier grass and ground types and general walls like Clefairy.

Vibrava C+ to B-, Whilst Rose usage is not where near as high in this tier when compared to SM, RosePawn cores are still extremely threatening and Vibrava is one of the very few mons which are able to threaten both whilst also carrying hazard removal. It also being a slower pivot is extremely useful for bringing in the frailer offensive threats safely.

Shelgon C+ to C-, It’s main niche is a wish passer on Stall or Semi-stall teams which both aren’t great. It’s an ok wall but it’s quite easy to punish with the plethora or Wallbreakers and bulky setup mons which don’t care about toxic.

Honedge C- to UR, Honestly you’d never used this mon ever although in theory it’s actually decent. It can pursuit trap Kadabra but other mons such as Munchlax and Metang do it better and can fit onto teams more easily whilst also providing more utility. Unless I’m missing something I don’t think it should be on the VR.

That's all I gotta say. ORAS Council will probably discuss these and VR to be updated in the near future. You can expect a longer post from me about ORAS NFE at the end of NFEPL.

Simbo · Jul 29, 2019

NFEPL 3 Week 2 Round Up Post

Updated standings, team and player records, matchup results for the week and replays can be found on the NFEPL 3 spreadsheet.

NFEPL 3 Doc

Week 2 Trades and other Admin

Admin: Ferocious Ferroseeds have traded 1k credits to the Ravenous Roselias for 3 emoji slots
Admin: Bayern Munchlax have traded 1k credits to the Traitorous Trumbeaks for JezebelleXX
Admin: Ferocious Ferroseeds have traded precognicent for HustonSmogon from the Traitorous Trumbeaks
Message: Friendly reminder, but make sure that, if you are testing teams with players from other teams, its not someone on the opposing team for that week, cheers
Message: If you are finding it difficult to schedule times with people or your opponent is not responding, let me and their managers know probably by mid-Friday so you can get a substitute
Admin: The Ferocious Ferroseeds have sold back Sealette for inactivity. They get an additional 3k credits.
Admin: After reviewing the situation between 85percent and hawkie. I have decided to award the act win to 85percent of the Monferno Mafia. 85percent messaged hawkie on Monday asking to schedule, no response. 85percent publically tagged TBZ on thursday morning on match scheduling to inform him of the situation and asked for a sub. No sub was provided. 85percent then publically tagged TBZ again on Friday evening asking for a sub again. No sub was provided, nor did hawkie respond. 85 is busy for the rest of the weekend. TBZ had two full days to provide a substitute for hawkie, but did not do so. 85percent scheduled well and even told TBZ twice to find a sub. It would be highly unfair of me to force a double sub in this situation, especially when I have little faith in TBZ providing one to begin with. Message to managers. If your player has not responded to scheduling attempts in 4ish days and your opp asks for a sub, give them the sub asap. Do not wait over 2 days and not provide anything cheers
Admin: The Traitorous Trumbeaks have sold back precognicent for inactivity. They get an additional 3k credits.

Note: ORAS NFE and NFE Ubers Usage Stats will be compiled at the end of the season.

SM NFE Week 2 Usage Stats

+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Pokemon | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + ------------------ + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Servine | 17 | 38.64% | 64.71% |
| 2 | Monferno | 16 | 36.36% | 50.00% |
| 2 | Kadabra | 16 | 36.36% | 50.00% |
| 2 | Roselia | 16 | 36.36% | 31.25% |
| 5 | Marshtomp | 15 | 34.09% | 40.00% |
| 6 | Electabuzz | 13 | 29.55% | 53.85% |
| 6 | Clefairy | 13 | 29.55% | 46.15% |
| 8 | Pawniard | 12 | 27.27% | 50.00% |
| 9 | Grimer-Alola | 11 | 25.00% | 54.55% |
| 9 | Machoke | 11 | 25.00% | 45.45% |
| 11 | Metang | 8 | 18.18% | 50.00% |
| 11 | Haunter | 8 | 18.18% | 50.00% |
| 11 | Gabite | 8 | 18.18% | 37.50% |
| 14 | Mareanie | 7 | 15.91% | 71.43% |
| 14 | Togetic | 7 | 15.91% | 57.14% |
| 16 | Vullaby | 6 | 13.64% | 33.33% |
| 17 | Combusken | 5 | 11.36% | 60.00% |
| 17 | Staravia | 5 | 11.36% | 40.00% |
| 17 | Hakamo-o | 5 | 11.36% | 40.00% |
| 20 | Misdreavus | 4 | 9.09% | 100.00% |
| 20 | Frogadier | 4 | 9.09% | 50.00% |
| 20 | Krokorok | 4 | 9.09% | 0.00% |
| 23 | Magmar | 3 | 6.82% | 100.00% |
| 23 | Munchlax | 3 | 6.82% | 66.67% |
| 23 | Rufflet | 3 | 6.82% | 66.67% |
| 23 | Dewpider | 3 | 6.82% | 33.33% |
| 23 | Meditite | 3 | 6.82% | 33.33% |
| 23 | Wartortle | 3 | 6.82% | 0.00% |
| 29 | Ferroseed | 2 | 4.55% | 100.00% |
| 29 | Quilladin | 2 | 4.55% | 100.00% |
| 29 | Klang | 2 | 4.55% | 100.00% |
| 29 | Murkrow | 2 | 4.55% | 50.00% |
| 29 | Eelektrik | 2 | 4.55% | 50.00% |
| 29 | Gloom | 2 | 4.55% | 0.00% |
| 35 | Graveler | 1 | 2.27% | 100.00% |
| 35 | Poliwhirl | 1 | 2.27% | 100.00% |
| 35 | Mudbray | 1 | 2.27% | 100.00% |
| 35 | Nidorino | 1 | 2.27% | 100.00% |
| 35 | Palpitoad | 1 | 2.27% | 100.00% |
| 35 | Hippopotas | 1 | 2.27% | 100.00% |
| 35 | Dartrix | 1 | 2.27% | 100.00% |
| 35 | Zubat | 1 | 2.27% | 100.00% |
| 35 | Duosion | 1 | 2.27% | 100.00% |
| 35 | Mienfoo | 1 | 2.27% | 100.00% |
| 35 | Vibrava | 1 | 2.27% | 100.00% |
| 35 | Sliggoo | 1 | 2.27% | 100.00% |
| 35 | Lairon | 1 | 2.27% | 0.00% |
| 35 | Pikachu | 1 | 2.27% | 0.00% |
| 35 | Sandshrew-Alola | 1 | 2.27% | 0.00% |
| 35 | Carvanha | 1 | 2.27% | 0.00% |
| 35 | Lampent | 1 | 2.27% | 0.00% |
| 35 | Swadloon | 1 | 2.27% | 0.00% |
| 35 | Torracat | 1 | 2.27% | 0.00% |
| 35 | Yanma | 1 | 2.27% | 0.00% |
| 35 | Fraxure | 1 | 2.27% | 0.00% |
| 35 | Marill | 1 | 2.27% | 0.00% |
| 35 | Trumbeak | 1 | 2.27% | 0.00% |

SM NFE Week 2 Two Mon 'Cores' Usage Stats

Cutoff point for these cores was 4+ Uses

+ ---- + --------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| Rank | Combos of 2 | Use | Usage % | Win % |
+ ---- + --------------------------- + ---- + ------- + ------- +
| 1 | Servine / Kadabra | 8 | 18.18% | 62.50% |
| 2 | Servine / Grimer-Alola | 7 | 15.91% | 71.43% |
| 2 | Pawniard / Monferno | 7 | 15.91% | 71.43% |
| 2 | Clefairy / Kadabra | 7 | 15.91% | 57.14% |
| 2 | Pawniard / Roselia | 7 | 15.91% | 42.86% |
| 2 | Monferno / Roselia | 7 | 15.91% | 42.86% |
| 2 | Clefairy / Roselia | 7 | 15.91% | 14.29% |
| 8 | Togetic / Monferno | 6 | 13.64% | 66.67% |
| 8 | Servine / Monferno | 6 | 13.64% | 66.67% |
| 8 | Marshtomp / Servine | 6 | 13.64% | 50.00% |
| 8 | Machoke / Kadabra | 6 | 13.64% | 50.00% |
| 8 | Marshtomp / Pawniard | 6 | 13.64% | 50.00% |
| 8 | Clefairy / Machoke | 6 | 13.64% | 50.00% |
| 8 | Electabuzz / Monferno | 6 | 13.64% | 50.00% |
| 8 | Grimer-Alola / Machoke | 6 | 13.64% | 33.33% |
| 8 | Marshtomp / Roselia | 6 | 13.64% | 16.67% |
| 17 | Servine / Clefairy | 5 | 11.36% | 100.00% |
| 17 | Servine / Machoke | 5 | 11.36% | 80.00% |
| 17 | Grimer-Alola / Kadabra | 5 | 11.36% | 60.00% |
| 17 | Gabite / Monferno | 5 | 11.36% | 40.00% |
| 17 | Marshtomp / Grimer-Alola | 5 | 11.36% | 40.00% |
| 17 | Togetic / Pawniard | 5 | 11.36% | 40.00% |
| 17 | Marshtomp / Monferno | 5 | 11.36% | 40.00% |
| 17 | Electabuzz / Roselia | 5 | 11.36% | 40.00% |
| 17 | Monferno / Kadabra | 5 | 11.36% | 40.00% |
| 17 | Roselia / Kadabra | 5 | 11.36% | 20.00% |
| 27 | Metang / Servine | 4 | 9.09% | 75.00% |
| 27 | Grimer-Alola / Haunter | 4 | 9.09% | 75.00% |
| 27 | Marshtomp / Electabuzz | 4 | 9.09% | 75.00% |
| 27 | Metang / Gabite | 4 | 9.09% | 50.00% |
| 27 | Servine / Haunter | 4 | 9.09% | 50.00% |
| 27 | Haunter / Kadabra | 4 | 9.09% | 50.00% |
| 27 | Grimer-Alola / Clefairy | 4 | 9.09% | 50.00% |
| 27 | Pawniard / Kadabra | 4 | 9.09% | 50.00% |
| 27 | Pawniard / Electabuzz | 4 | 9.09% | 50.00% |
| 27 | Marshtomp / Kadabra | 4 | 9.09% | 25.00% |
| 27 | Marshtomp / Clefairy | 4 | 9.09% | 25.00% |
| 27 | Marshtomp / Staravia | 4 | 9.09% | 25.00% |
| 27 | Togetic / Roselia | 4 | 9.09% | 25.00% |
| 27 | Machoke / Roselia | 4 | 9.09% | 25.00% |
| 27 | Marshtomp / Machoke | 4 | 9.09% | 0.00% |

Simbo · Jul 29, 2019

NFEPL 3 Week 3:

ALL MATCH REPLAYS SHOULD BE POSTED IN THE NFE DISCORD IN #replays-channel. PLEASE DO NOT POST REPLAYS HERE..

Week 3 Midseason Announcement

The midseason auction channel in discord will open as close to 8pm GMT +1 as possible. Bidding between teams for players will take place there. This channel auction follows a similar price format as the original auction, 3k is the minimum bid, bid increments go up by minimum 500 and each bid must end in .0 or .5, no 4.3k bids allowed. More detailed mids info below.

At the start of Week 2, sign-ups will open for midseason. Players who weren't drafted or people who did not sign up before the draft can sign up and a new free agent list will be made. Note: Even if you signed up the first time around, you must re-signup in order to get on the midseason free agent list. Signups will be in #mids-signups on Discord. After sign-ups close, I will remind each manager how many credits they have left over from the original live auction. In addition, each team will get an extra 5000 credits on top of any credits saved from the live auction for mids.

Instead of having another live auction, an auction will take place in a specific NFE Discord channel. Managers will post their bids, with other managers having up to 12 hours from the time of the post to make a higher bid on the player. After 12 hours, if the manager has not been outbid, his or her team will be awarded the player/s. The Midseason auction will occur during Week 3. The players purchased here will be allowed to start playing starting on Week 4. There is no use for leftover credits after the midseason free agent pickups, so it is in every manager’s best interest to spend all of their remaining points at this time. No players may enter NFEPL 3 after the midseason auction, except in the case of a team falling below the minimum number of starters due to their players being banned, in which case they'll be allowed to pick players from the undrafted pool until they reach the minimum.

Managers will also have the opportunity to sellback any inactive or toxic players before mids. However, all sellbacks will be 3k. Sellbacks will be allowed til the end of week 2.

NFEPL 3 Document

The document will be updated during the week with player records, standings, replays etc.

WEEK 3 Matchups

Bayern Munchlax (4) VS Ravenous Roselias (4)

SM NFE Bo3: Frisoeva vs Ktutverde
SM NFE: Plas vs dom
SM NFE: Czim vs Cheryl
SM NFE: Cheff Gordo vs Voltage
SM NFE: Blinkboy vs Miyami
SM NFE: Banks vs Amphareixon
ORAS NFE: Official Fissure vs rafooa11
NFE Ubers: SMB vs Marjane

Ferocious Ferroseeds (5) VS Traitorous Trumbeaks (3)

SM NFE Bo3: Huston vs TBZ (Banana Spritzee)
SM NFE: DadoRossoFuoco vs ShuckleDeath
SM NFE: SBPC vs free my man tele
SM NFE: xHys vs tallydaorangez
SM NFE: ~~Kaif~~ Bloodace vs TheJ3estPenguin
SM NFE: Monsareeasy vs Xayah
ORAS NFE: Tack vs hawkie
NFE Ubers: PhantomHurious vs DanDaMan99

The Sliggoons (4) VS Monferno Mafia (4)

SM NFE Bo3: Lockjaw vs PD
SM NFE: quagsgone vs Ninjadog13
SM NFE: Jho vs Elgino
SM NFE: martha vs Thiago Nunes
SM NFE: SHSP vs Toy Time King
SM NFE: ~~vooper~~ eli (Nuxl) vs ~~Spitfire Arcanine~~ ~~neomon~~ Boulicrok
ORAS NFE: Crystalites vs 85percent
NFE Ubers: jcbc vs EnzoLapras

Deadline is midnight Sunday August 4th GMT -4.
Manager Week 4 Lineup Deadline is midnight Saturday August 3rd GMT -4

Metagame NFE Metagame

Amadán

Own a doghouse?

Own a doghouse?

Own a doghouse?

Own a doghouse?

stranded on an island

Own a doghouse?

Won't Catch Me Lacking.

Own a doghouse?

Own a doghouse?

Amadán

Won't Catch Me Lacking.

Bow to your Matriarch

stranded on an island

gn gobodachis

Own a doghouse?

Own a doghouse?

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)