I'm fairly sure he wasn't trying to advance a point with those calcs. I think he was just providing those so people on both sides of the argument could use them without having to spend the time to calc them themselves. It was just thoughtful, albeit a little silly in some cases (calcing Specs Hurricane vs Breloom seems just a tad unnecessary).
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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 9 - Rock You Like a Hurricane
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i think it was fair to assume by the implications behind "i put in bold what is 100% ohko'd" and "do with these what you will" (not to mention the fact that vemane has been one of the few supporters of torn-t for ou throughout this thread) that the calcs were supposed to mean something. maybe i gave him too much credit and he really was just being neutral, but given his posting history that's extremely hard to believe.
no pwnemon i've never heard of that, interesting though
lol^
Seriosuly, nothing offensive will take on torn-t, unless you bring about scarf stuff. When it come to the defensive, jirachi is the only long term reliable thing. The only. Almost all stall teams run spec defensive jirachi. That is how much torn-t affects the meta. After it has attacked, it will u-turn out, heal with regenerator like nothing ever happened. I claim torn-t is ban-worthy because of the ability to outlive almost every counter (a carefully played specially defensive jirachi IS a counter) and 2hko half the metagame (seriously, it is ridiculous) .
Actually, I think it is quite a testament to his strength that specs tornadus is able to 1hko a heatran switchin (to hurricane) with focus blast. Good thing it was bolded so I was able to see it!
It's merely for convience sake. Seeing the cutoff from 1hko to 2hko (both in comparing the two sets and looking at a singe set from an objective perspective) is simply useful (especially without rocks, because you seem so stuck on the fact that rocks should (for some odd reason) never be assumed!).
yeah i just got into playing OU, and went a dozen battles or so with Torn-T. used the LO set. dear god this thing is a beast. didn't give two fucks about anything that switched in just Hurricane spam. However, switching Torn-T in, IMO, is pretty damn hard. Even with the slight defensive boost with the Incarnate --> Therian change, Torn-T is hard pressed to tank anything (a lot of things OHKO). Even though, yeah, it can heavily damage a lot of stuff, I don't think it's necessarily broken, as multiple offensive checks exist.
edit: ouch no need to get angry. im just saying that Torn-T doesn't have a lot of good opportunities to switch in, as the metagame is a lot more focused on offensive pressure, meaning less defensive people to switch in on. And @NixHex, I meant less of a check, but more that after a Torn-T kill, you can send in a scarf like Terrakion (if the Torn-T is LO) and if it's choiced then it can't U-Turn out. Just send in a resist and slam the switch-in (or the Torn-T) with a powerful STAB move. I guess I mean revenge killing then. My mistake. But since everyone's pretty much in agreement that Torn-T is overpowered, I might as well join in. No sense in me arguing.
edit: ouch no need to get angry. im just saying that Torn-T doesn't have a lot of good opportunities to switch in, as the metagame is a lot more focused on offensive pressure, meaning less defensive people to switch in on. And @NixHex, I meant less of a check, but more that after a Torn-T kill, you can send in a scarf like Terrakion (if the Torn-T is LO) and if it's choiced then it can't U-Turn out. Just send in a resist and slam the switch-in (or the Torn-T) with a powerful STAB move. I guess I mean revenge killing then. My mistake. But since everyone's pretty much in agreement that Torn-T is overpowered, I might as well join in. No sense in me arguing.
I didn't want to post here but this claim is sort of ridiculous. Have you read the rest of the thread where people are slamming DEFENSIVE checks like Zapdos (for its 4MSS) and Rotom-W (for lack of good recovery or Tornadus-T just U-turning out). Please explain which offensive checks there are. What offensive Pokes can take two hits and not worry about Torn U-turning? I'm baffled. Don't give me tailored EV spreads, give me Pokemin you'd use normally.
just to debunk some more false claims (hi vemane), i've been hearing a lot of "thundurus-t is a great check to tornadus-t, it can switch in and begin to set up on rain's face!"
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 149-176 (49.66 - 58.66%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO
no, no it cannot.
252 SpA Life Orb Tornadus Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus-T: 149-176 (49.66 - 58.66%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO
no, no it cannot.
Ginganinga said:
Yes, thundy takes 49-58%, and then proceeds to outspeed and either ko with volt switch or gain momentum with the scarf it is most obviously holding (252 SpAtk Thundurus Volt Switch vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Tornadus-T: 82.27% - 97.32%).
And if it is not holding a scarf, why the fuck would tornadus stay in to risk it considering it is likely thundy's most used set?
Again, assuming that the tornadus player is godlike and the opponent sucks does not make for a good argument.
And by the way...
252 SpAtk Life Orb Tornadus-T Hurricane vs 252 HP/0 SpDef Jirachi: 28.22% - 33.17%
0 Atk Life Orb Tornadus-T U-turn vs 252 HP/0 Def Jirachi: 16.34% - 19.31%
Jirachi truly does not mind sitting behind a sub at 50% (after 2 leftovers, etc.) considering the switch in is probably going to get paralyzed or set up on.
So, arguing that Torn isn't broken seems hopeless as everyone seems to have their mind set on banning it. (Looks like I have to find a new team slot :P) Also tbh, the SpD Jirachi that I use on the team seems more broken than the Tornadus most of the time, since it paralyzes everything allowing my slower members like Politoed to actually do something. Also Scarfeo clean up sweeps way better than Tornadus, IMO.
Anyway, was Thundurus-I more broken than Tornadus-T? Or do you think it was only banned first because everyone recognized it as being dangerous from the previous BW1 metagame?
Also, just to have some sort of relevance in this post, I might as well include my opinion on Keldeo. Keldeo isn't broken at all, way too many counters exist for it, and it is almost always choice locked (with the CM set not being broken to begin with anyway).
Anyway, was Thundurus-I more broken than Tornadus-T? Or do you think it was only banned first because everyone recognized it as being dangerous from the previous BW1 metagame?
Also, just to have some sort of relevance in this post, I might as well include my opinion on Keldeo. Keldeo isn't broken at all, way too many counters exist for it, and it is almost always choice locked (with the CM set not being broken to begin with anyway).
Thundurus was declared broken primarily because of the fact that it was practically thundurus-t... except could outspeed latios/ponies/etc.
Plus priority passives and such
And nasty plot+great coverage
@Vermane:
November OU stats:
Incorrect.
OU Suspect stats:
Incorrect again.
I'd make a decent post but I need to get my thoughts together.
November OU stats:
Code:
+----------------------------------------+
| Thundurus-Therian |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilties |
| Volt Absorb 100.000% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items |
| Life Orb 27.470% |
| Choice Scarf 25.667% |OU Suspect stats:
Code:
+----------------------------------------+
| Thundurus-Therian |
+----------------------------------------+
| Abilties |
| Volt Absorb 100.000% |
+----------------------------------------+
| Items |
| Expert Belt 33.120% |
| Leftovers 18.950% |
| Choice Scarf 17.668% |I'd make a decent post but I need to get my thoughts together.
Youre missing the point. Thundurus-T is now at half its health. Tornadus switch out and recovers whatever damage it got from rocks/life orb. Later in the match it can kill thundurus-t cause he will be worned down and tornadus is still in perfect shape. He can do this to all of his checks cause of regenerator. Thats what makes it broken.
I stand corrected
But keep in mind that was also november.
In this current meta, most of the thundies I have seen have been scarved
And if a thundurus-t switches in on my tornadus, I sure as hell am not taking the chance that it isn't scarved (because if someone is switching in on a move that obviously 2hkos, it's the most likely option)
In that position, unlike most, it is the tornadus user that now has to deal with the pressure: get kod, or get swept
Except tornadus can't come back in and kill thundurus-t because thundurus is at +2 speed and plowing through your tentacruel+toad+tornadus+keldeo+ferrothorn.
And if the thundurus is scarved, that user now has the momentum due to volt switch.
If anything, if it needs to come threaten tornadus again, it can just come in to revenge after sacking something that was weakened or no longer needed
And I know, "oh so you have to sack something to kill it??? It can just switch out and repeat??? brokennn!!!"
But at the same time, every switch out of thundurus gives the thundy player a chance to gain control of the match and (probably) ko something on the opponent's team or set up or w/e
Hows is it at +2. Wasnt it scarf? If anything you wil volt switch and... thats it.
Oh I see. Ginga (for some odd reason) deleted the post where I mentioned agility thundurus. That's the cause of the confusion.
The argument was that thundurus (agility) could come in and agility as tornadus switches out (because it doesn't want to die to predicted scarf) and then sweep the entire standard rain team
And volt switching isn't just "that's it." It lets you switch in something that counters what the opponent sent in (or a lovely cb kyrurem b <3) and wreck some shit
It might not wear away at tornadus, but it sure is taking a toll on the rest of the team
Pretty much all I saw battling for quals was that obnoxious expert belt set. Maybe there was a scarf or two in the mix but belt is definitely still the most common set.
Why is everyone hating on Vemane? Thundurus-T is a decent check to Tornadus-T in the respect that it can switch into a single Hurricane and force Tornadus-T out. Imo its too much like Jolteon though, in which case it only takes one Hurricane and can't switch in again (assuming rocks).
However, Tornadus-T has been proven to have many offensive checks. I've already explained why I feel Torn-T is broken so I'm not repeating myself; but, I think Vemane's point (or any Torn-T for OU point) is that offensive checks are easy to put on teams (and can even be considered "unintentional") and therefore makes Torn-T less intimidating.
This is somewhat true, but I feel that it doesn't take much to wear down any of Tornadus-T's checks, and the fact that Protect Tornadus-T can put pressure on Revenge Killing (which is what the majority of Torn-T's offensive checks are supposed to do) is why I still feel that this argument is moot.
Tornadus-T has too many ways around its checks. Between Taunt, (for its defensive checks), Protect, (for its offensive checks) and Sleep Talk , (for not being able to shut it down with sleep), just make Tornadus-T all the more threatening. It doesn't have a very consistent counter base, with Zapdos as the only Pokemon that can take everything Tornadus-T can throw at it (and even then SR damage is pwn'ing Zappy for like 25%). Hell, Tornadus-T even gets U-turn to stack more pressure on its already hard-pressed checks.
Also, like Melee Mewtwo said: Tailwind is legit.
tl;tr: Between Taunt, Protect, Tailwind, and Sleep Talk, Tornadus-T can easily narrow down its "checks". Meanwhile, the Specs set has more trouble vs. these offensive RK'ers but its bonus is hitting stall just so much harder with the aid of SR.
However, Tornadus-T has been proven to have many offensive checks. I've already explained why I feel Torn-T is broken so I'm not repeating myself; but, I think Vemane's point (or any Torn-T for OU point) is that offensive checks are easy to put on teams (and can even be considered "unintentional") and therefore makes Torn-T less intimidating.
This is somewhat true, but I feel that it doesn't take much to wear down any of Tornadus-T's checks, and the fact that Protect Tornadus-T can put pressure on Revenge Killing (which is what the majority of Torn-T's offensive checks are supposed to do) is why I still feel that this argument is moot.
Tornadus-T has too many ways around its checks. Between Taunt, (for its defensive checks), Protect, (for its offensive checks) and Sleep Talk , (for not being able to shut it down with sleep), just make Tornadus-T all the more threatening. It doesn't have a very consistent counter base, with Zapdos as the only Pokemon that can take everything Tornadus-T can throw at it (and even then SR damage is pwn'ing Zappy for like 25%). Hell, Tornadus-T even gets U-turn to stack more pressure on its already hard-pressed checks.
Also, like Melee Mewtwo said: Tailwind is legit.
tl;tr: Between Taunt, Protect, Tailwind, and Sleep Talk, Tornadus-T can easily narrow down its "checks". Meanwhile, the Specs set has more trouble vs. these offensive RK'ers but its bonus is hitting stall just so much harder with the aid of SR.
what i'm still wondering about the thundurus-t thing is that if scarf is used less than 18% of the time, with agility being by far the most common set, why is it going to be able to switch into torn-t (taking hurricane for ~50% when it does so) and then "scare it out"? i mean if the most common set by far is NOT the scarf set why is the torn-t user going to care if thun-t just switched in and lost half its health to hurricane? if i were the torn-t user i'd just stay in and finish the job unless it's brutally obvious that the thun-t is scarf (for example, no other viable scarf users on the opponent's team probably means this). you're trying to employ deterrence to get the job done except the opponent isn't being deterred.
vemane, with all due respect, i think you're exaggerating a little about how many thun-ts you see and how many of them are actually scarfed. of all the thundurus-ts i saw when i was laddering for reqs, only one was scarfed out of 20 or more (i forget the exact number but i saw a lot). most of them were agility or expert belt, the latter because of some rmt that some guy posted that's seeing a lot of usage. agility, to me, is the best set by far, and that's why it sees the most usage (in competitive battles at least), so claiming it's a check to torn-t isn't a great argument.
also, shurtugal's post is highly informative and she makes good sense from both sides of the aisle on this issue so i recommend giving it a read.
vemane, with all due respect, i think you're exaggerating a little about how many thun-ts you see and how many of them are actually scarfed. of all the thundurus-ts i saw when i was laddering for reqs, only one was scarfed out of 20 or more (i forget the exact number but i saw a lot). most of them were agility or expert belt, the latter because of some rmt that some guy posted that's seeing a lot of usage. agility, to me, is the best set by far, and that's why it sees the most usage (in competitive battles at least), so claiming it's a check to torn-t isn't a great argument.
also, shurtugal's post is highly informative and she makes good sense from both sides of the aisle on this issue so i recommend giving it a read.
I feel like you are misinterpreting my intentions, lavos.
I don't consider tornadus-t to be wholeheartedly broken, but I would vote for its ban. The amount of pressure it places on the opponent with both sets (though the specs set is much scarier imo) coupled with its speed is so bleh in a metagame sense. Banning it would not only relieve this pressure, but it would tone down rain (because banning drizzle is the absolute stupidest idea in the world). Along with this, it would allow tornadus-i to simply fill its spot for those who still want to use tornadus, as it functions as a significantly stronger, but far more managable, tornadus-t. Thus, there is no real "downside" to banning it.
Because of this, I was simply arguing for the viability and availability of its checks and counters. Yes tornadus can play around them, but the other player can play around tornadus as well, though it is more difficult. Can tornadus be stopped? Yes, very much so. But will it take a few checks and a couple mind games to do it? Also yes, which is why it should be banned.
I don't consider tornadus-t to be wholeheartedly broken, but I would vote for its ban. The amount of pressure it places on the opponent with both sets (though the specs set is much scarier imo) coupled with its speed is so bleh in a metagame sense. Banning it would not only relieve this pressure, but it would tone down rain (because banning drizzle is the absolute stupidest idea in the world). Along with this, it would allow tornadus-i to simply fill its spot for those who still want to use tornadus, as it functions as a significantly stronger, but far more managable, tornadus-t. Thus, there is no real "downside" to banning it.
Because of this, I was simply arguing for the viability and availability of its checks and counters. Yes tornadus can play around them, but the other player can play around tornadus as well, though it is more difficult. Can tornadus be stopped? Yes, very much so. But will it take a few checks and a couple mind games to do it? Also yes, which is why it should be banned.
I've got a pretty strong gut feeling that Torn-T's about to pack its bags and hike up to Ubers...
Torn-T is just so stupidly overpowered in many scenarios IMO.
He's one of the few Pokemon in the game that can spam LO and care little about the recoil damage. Essentially Torn-T is able to get free-damage output.
Torn-T just happens to fit into the metagame's most dominant playstyle, which is the most loved and most hated, rain.
With Rain prevalence, Torn-T is able to spam Hurricanes almost without consequence as due to its high base Speed, it can simply spam, then U-Turn out to an appropriate counter according to the opponents' response.
Little Brawl Reference (n_n): Torn-T can really be seen as a top level character as he is fast, powerful, has options, can take on the OU metagame quite well with great matchups and is able to spam moves with little fear of punishment of doing so. He also has a great "recovery": Regenerator. I feel Torn-T can almost be seen as the "Metaknight" of Pokemon.
Hopefully this cross-reference actually backs up my point and makes sense.... o.o''''
TL;DR: Tornadus-Therian will/should/most likely go Uber because...
~His Speed tier is simply unmatched and he has power to back up that offensive presence.
~Tornadus-T is a rare Pokemon in the aspect that he is able to spam Hurricanes almost mindlessly and get away with it safely. Even if you "misplay" a bit with Torn-T, there's a good chance, you'll be able to get away with it with little to no consequence.
~Tornadus-T ends up outsurviving many of his checks and counters due to his hit and run style of play and Regenerator.
~Because he plays hit-and-run, he honestly lacks a true "counter". He can simply U-Turn out and have a Pokemon deal with that "counter". Later Torn-T has the liberty of being able to walk right back out unscathed and ready to do some more damage.
~Torn-T has many good match-ups against the top-threats of OU. Whatever Pokemon is sent out, there's a good chance Torn-T will either beat them straight up, or Torn-T has a method to deal with them quite easily.
....and this was my 2 cents n_n
Torn-T is just so stupidly overpowered in many scenarios IMO.
He's one of the few Pokemon in the game that can spam LO and care little about the recoil damage. Essentially Torn-T is able to get free-damage output.
Torn-T just happens to fit into the metagame's most dominant playstyle, which is the most loved and most hated, rain.
With Rain prevalence, Torn-T is able to spam Hurricanes almost without consequence as due to its high base Speed, it can simply spam, then U-Turn out to an appropriate counter according to the opponents' response.
Little Brawl Reference (n_n): Torn-T can really be seen as a top level character as he is fast, powerful, has options, can take on the OU metagame quite well with great matchups and is able to spam moves with little fear of punishment of doing so. He also has a great "recovery": Regenerator. I feel Torn-T can almost be seen as the "Metaknight" of Pokemon.
Hopefully this cross-reference actually backs up my point and makes sense.... o.o''''
TL;DR: Tornadus-Therian will/should/most likely go Uber because...
~His Speed tier is simply unmatched and he has power to back up that offensive presence.
~Tornadus-T is a rare Pokemon in the aspect that he is able to spam Hurricanes almost mindlessly and get away with it safely. Even if you "misplay" a bit with Torn-T, there's a good chance, you'll be able to get away with it with little to no consequence.
~Tornadus-T ends up outsurviving many of his checks and counters due to his hit and run style of play and Regenerator.
~Because he plays hit-and-run, he honestly lacks a true "counter". He can simply U-Turn out and have a Pokemon deal with that "counter". Later Torn-T has the liberty of being able to walk right back out unscathed and ready to do some more damage.
~Torn-T has many good match-ups against the top-threats of OU. Whatever Pokemon is sent out, there's a good chance Torn-T will either beat them straight up, or Torn-T has a method to deal with them quite easily.
....and this was my 2 cents n_n
Your Brawl reference isn't accurate. There really isn't any Pokémon that fits the "Meta Knight" archetype. To do that they would have to have literally no bad match-ups.
Now, what Tornadus-T has shown us is that Regenerator might just be a deal breaker on offensive Pokémon in general. Could you imagine if any of the Swords of Justice had it? Or anything that wasn't weak to Stealth Rock?
Now, what Tornadus-T has shown us is that Regenerator might just be a deal breaker on offensive Pokémon in general. Could you imagine if any of the Swords of Justice had it? Or anything that wasn't weak to Stealth Rock?
I'd probably compare Tornadus-t to Snake in that it's hella powerful and very few bad matchups.
I don't really know if Regenerator is the main factor (Mienshao is Fighting-type and resists SR, but it's UU), but it's certainly one of the most broken abilities in the game. I think it's mainly just the sheer dominance he has in rain and the little cat-and-mouse game one has to play with Tornadus-t before you even get a shot off at at. I mean if it didn't have Regenerator then mons like Jolteon would checkmate it every time without worrying about hazard damage because the Tornadus-t (assuming you both just have SR down) is suffering them as well. But the fact that it can just take the game's momentum and just run with it is it's breaking attribute. I mean, we see what happens with his Incarnate form: great mon that can spam Hurricane with horrifying power, but it lacks the blisteringly high speed and Regenerator to truly be as effective as its Therian form.
I don't really know if Regenerator is the main factor (Mienshao is Fighting-type and resists SR, but it's UU), but it's certainly one of the most broken abilities in the game. I think it's mainly just the sheer dominance he has in rain and the little cat-and-mouse game one has to play with Tornadus-t before you even get a shot off at at. I mean if it didn't have Regenerator then mons like Jolteon would checkmate it every time without worrying about hazard damage because the Tornadus-t (assuming you both just have SR down) is suffering them as well. But the fact that it can just take the game's momentum and just run with it is it's breaking attribute. I mean, we see what happens with his Incarnate form: great mon that can spam Hurricane with horrifying power, but it lacks the blisteringly high speed and Regenerator to truly be as effective as its Therian form.
I feel like a lot of abilities would end up being deal breakers on the wrong (or right in this case) Pokemon.
Terrakion with Solid Rock for instance, would end up being utterly broken. TBH, I've always thought that Regenerator was a top tier ability, people just weren't paying attention.
It's a major one, but not the main one.
There's still so much to Tornadus-T, that stripping one of them (whether it's U-Turn, His flying typing, Superpower, or regen, or the simple support known as drizzle) would make him more balanced for the tier. So much power and versatility with so little support needed calls for a change.
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