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np: Latios - "unban me"

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RaikouLover said:
Duh, that's the way the community wants it. The community wants counters for every pokemon... why else would people be calling for Salamence tests and Stealth Rock tests and all that other nonsense?

I think offense is seriously on the decline...
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Are you serious? This community adores offense, hence why shit like Salamence / Stealth Rock testing is an utter joke(which admittedly it is). The Lati twins are being tested before Deoxys-L, because god forbid we have too much defense. The way I see it, Attackers > Walls in our current metagame, not the other way around, and I don't see that changing in the distant future.

Anyways, I tested a Dragon Pulse / Thunderbolt / Surf / Recover set and it performs extremely well against offensive teams and stall teams alike. I run it with a LO Magma Storm / Taunt / Explosion Heatran to destroy Blissey. Magma Storm on the switch, Taunt so it can't heal but mainly so it can't outpredict you with Protect, then Explode on her. Latios's fantastic type coverage + power + speed allows it to sweep through a few pokemon if you predict correctly.

Despite Latios seeming overpowered, it is easily revenge killed by Scizor or Tyranitar, and if you can predict correctly by using CB U-Turn early in the game, you can take out their Magnezone with Dugtrio, the key to eliminating Scizor stuck on Bullet Punch. Dugtrio also works wonderfully at softening up Blissey, Tyranitar, and Metagross, so I don't know why I haven't seen him on more suspect teams. ***It isn't specializing when you are simply adding a pokemon who can take out your sweepers counters. That is the entire point of pokemon, eliminating counters, thus freeing up an opportunity to sweep.

EDIT: I recommend against the use of HP Fire, as it lowers your speed by one point, leaving you vulnerable to other Latios as well as losing to Gengar, who isn't very common, but it might just lose you the game.
 
Very defensive teams are popping up everywhere. They are not full stall, but just teams that are hard to break. Not many Skarms, Blisseys, or Forretress, but thing like Vaporeon and Rotom. Teams are usually like 4 defensive pokes, Latios, and anything else.

The triple Dragon/Steel teams are monstrous. The offense the dragons keep up is a lot for your steels to handle, and the steels aren't so bad in the offensive position, though they are more there to handle assaults. Flygon isn't so common, but Kingdra is a monster, and Salamence is the biggest threat in the game. Latios isn't all that bad really, the Pursuit weakness, especially when it is Draco Meteoring so much, is the thing that keeps it in check (though I don't use Pursuit myself). There is also a lot of shit to take advantage of choice-locked Pursuits. Of course, it's too early to say whether this is unhealthy for the metagame or not. Hell, I think we still can't tell if Latias made the metagame unhealthy. I actually dislike this metagame, less so than when Latias was being tested, but everyone should still take a few steps back and see Latios' effect on the entire metagame before casting their vote. Even though I dislike the game, as of right now I would still vote OU.

The DualScreen Memento Latios -> No attack BP Gliscor -> Metagross, for me, has been manageable after putting Brick Break on defensive Scizor. I do agree though that it really takes no skill to use. If this strategy becomes dominant there is no questioning that that would push Latios to Uber. This strategy is used like once in every four or five matches for me.
 
Peachfuzz said:
Very defensive teams are popping up everywhere. They are not full stall, but just teams that are hard to break. Not many Skarms, Blisseys, or Forretress, but thing like Vaporeon and Rotom. Teams are usually like 4 defensive pokes, Latios, and anything else.
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Absolutely true.

Also, I'm not facing a lot of tyranitars, but I suppose this is because scizor is everywhere. About scizors, I've noticed that most of them are choice banded and pack u-turn, which make em a lot harder to trap with magnezone.

About latios, if the test ended now, then I would vote for him in OU. I'm not sure if this is due to the fact that people expect to face him and so are prepared to handle him, but I rarely manage to kill more than one pokemon with latios.
 
Haunterfan said:
Absolutely true.

Also, I'm not facing a lot of tyranitars, but I suppose this is because scizor is everywhere. About scizors, I've noticed that most of them are choice banded and pack u-turn, which make em a lot harder to trap with magnezone.

About latios, if the test ended now, then I would vote for him in OU. I'm not sure if this is due to the fact that people expect to face him and so are prepared to handle him, but I rarely manage to kill more than one pokemon with latios.
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I completely agree with everything you said except what tier you placed him in. I don't know, I'm still caught in the middle, but take a look at how deadly it is after a Calm Mind or 2. The opponent's team isn't a very good team mind you, but take a look at the log anyways...

Anyways, I blanked out the guy's name so here it is, make what you will of it.

Rules: Ladder Match, Sleep Clause, Freeze Clause, OHKO Clause, Evasion Clause, Species Clause, Strict Damage Clause, Soul Dew Clause

Code: 
Guardian sent out Aurget (lvl 100 Metagross).
Opponent sent out Zap (lvl 100 Zapdos).
Zap is exerting its pressure!
Zap used Heat Wave.
It's super effective!
Aurget lost 33% of its health.
The Occa Berry weakened Heat Wave's power!
Aurget used Stealth Rock.
Pointed stones float in the air around your foe's team!
---
Guardian switched in Draco (lvl 100 Latios ?).
Zap used Heat Wave.
It's not very effective...
Draco lost 19% of its health.
---
Opponent switched in Ludicolo (lvl 100 Ludicolo ?).
Pointed stones dug into Ludicolo.
Ludicolo lost 12% of its health.
Draco used Calm Mind.
Draco's special attack was raised.
Draco's special defence was raised.
---
Draco used Dragon Pulse.
Ludicolo lost 88% of its health.
Opponent’s Ludicolo fainted.
Draco lost 10% of its health.
---
Opponent switched in Zap (lvl 100 Zapdos).
Zap is exerting its pressure!
Pointed stones dug into Zap.
Zap lost 25% of its health.
Zap used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Draco lost 35% of its health.
Draco used Calm Mind.
Draco's special attack was raised.
Draco's special defence was raised.
---
Opponent: uber
Guardian: lol
handsockpuppet: that is my analysis
Zap used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Draco lost 23% of its health.
Draco used Recover.
Draco restored 50% of its health.
---
Zap used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Draco lost 25% of its health.
Draco used Calm Mind.
Draco's special attack was raised.
Draco's special defence was raised.
---
Zap used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Draco lost 19% of its health.
Draco used Recover.
Draco restored 50% of its health.
---
Zap used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Draco lost 19% of its health.
Draco used Recover.
Draco restored 50% of its health.
---
Zap used Hidden Power.
It's super effective!
Draco lost 22% of its health.
Draco used Dragon Pulse.
Zap lost 75% of its health.
Opponent’s Zap fainted.
Draco lost 10% of its health.
---
Opponent switched in Saturday (lvl 100 Slaking ?).
Pointed stones dug into Saturday.
Saturday lost 12% of its health.
Draco used Dragon Pulse.
Saturday lost 88% of its health.
Opponent’s Saturday fainted.
Draco lost 10% of its health.
---
Opponent switched in Gary (lvl 100 Gengar ?).
Pointed stones dug into Gary.
Gary lost 12% of its health.
Draco used Dragon Pulse.
Gary lost 88% of its health.
Opponent’s Gary fainted.
Draco lost 10% of its health.
---
Opponent’s switched in Don (lvl 100 Bastiodon ?).
Pointed stones dug into Don.
Don lost 6% of its health.
Draco used Recover.
Draco restored 50% of its health.
Don used Metal Burst.
But it failed!
---
Draco used Surf.
It's super effective!
Don lost 94% of its health.
Opponent’s Don fainted.
Draco lost 10% of its health.
---
Opponent switched in Dragonite (lvl 100 Dragonite ?).
Pointed stones dug into Dragonite.
Dragonite lost 25% of its health.
Draco used Dragon Pulse.
It's super effective!
Dragonite lost 75% of its health.
Opponent’ Dragonite fainted. 

Guardian wins!
Guardian: wow
Opponent: too uber
Guardian: lol
Guardian: well
Guardian: you let me set up...
Opponent: he really shouldn't be OU

Yeah, sorry about the nicknames, didn't really have time to ommit them.

The reason I can't make up my mind is that Latios is still easily countered by T-Tar (check my RMT), and a Modest Specs, 252/252 Latios still failed to OHKO my Hippowdon, so IDK...
 
I have had an entirely different experience on the Suspect ladder. Scizor was always common so the only noticeable change I see is that he is running more Spdef ev's.

The thing you are describing is normal centralization around a new threat. I'm positive that the same thing happened during the Latias test based on previous posts. Those two Latios counters generally deal with other Pokemon or are amazing Pokemon that are already commonly used (ie Scizor).

Garchomp was different. Even when entire teams were built around stopping him he still managed to increase in usage each month. This metagame isn't nearly as overcentralized as the Garchomp metagame.

Having to prepare for a threat is different from overcentralization.

Oh and what you said could also be said for Latias. She caused the same thing to happen. TAY even mentioned his successful 3 steels/3 dragons team during the Latias test. Meanwhile he stated in this thread that Latios is actually easier to deal with than Latias.

Deoxys was also different. The DS set was nearly impossible to stop without the use of Brick Break or an insanely fast lead taunter. It sucked all the skill out of the game to the point that you could just mindlessly win matches by doing this: Reflect, Light Screen, SR, switch, Rock Polish, Taunt, Swords Dance, Pass, Attack with move.
 
Actually the metagame's overcentralization on the Suspect ladder will always happen as pointed out by SDS in the other thread, making the test pretty much useless for "what will the metagame look like" kind of pictures. You can still gauge how easily it sweeps even in this overly centralized scenario, though.
 
Specs Latios. Fuck yeah.

So, I'm gonna say that Latios is obscenely powerful. More powerful than Latias could ever hope to be. Specs Latios Dragon Pulse is probably one of the strongest attacks I've seen in any metagame, combined with its awesome Base 110 Speed and top-notch coverage with Surf and Thunderbolt, as well as access to Draco Meteor for even more ridiculous power. Its excellent Special Defense means that unlike every other Dragon, it doesn't mind Ice Beam, and unlike Salamence, it also isn't weak to Stealth Rock. If you're not named Blissey, Tyranitar, or one of a few Steel-types, Latios' attacks will simply be too much.

I'll keep playing, but for now the outlook is not good.
 
You can do the same thing with latios
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Latios does not have Taunt which makes it difficult to set up both screens.

Also you seem to be saying that it is overcentralization just because you dislike the metagame. Stall becoming more viable is not really a reason to ban something. Most teams looked similar even before the Latias test. Zapdos/Heatran/Scizor/Blissey/Tyranitar/Filler IIRC. Teams will generally look the same because a few select Pokemon tend to shine. This isn't overcentralization that you are seeing, you are seeing people over prepare for a threat simply because it is new.
 
There's a good reason that the word "overcentralization" feel out of grace. Uber is not defined and shouldn't be by "Did I have to change my team to deal with it?", because every Pokémon in the game does that.
 
@ GFGuru

If you want to argue that Latios is Uber use these guidelines. Overcentralization means nothing if the Pokemon in question does not meet one of the three requirements.

Offensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is Uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.

Defensive Characteristic
A Pokémon is Uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.

Support Characteristic
A Pokémon is Uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
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Now before you start let me say that I feel Latios does not meet any of the following three. Specs Draco Meteor is a beastly attack but it does not allow Latios to sweep any team that is prepared for it.
The other sets were already discussed. DD/MixDD is done far better by Salamence, Life Orb versions are countered by standard special walls, and CM versions can be stopped by Tyranitar, Scizor, Heracross, (most things with a strong Dark attack), Trick (which is already frequently abused), and Toxic (unless you use Refresh which limits your coverage).

Latios really doesn't meet the defensive characteristics. I really don't think we need to get into this.

Support is the only one Latios has the potential to meet right now. DS + Memento can be a pain, but Latios lacks Taunt which really makes it inferior to Deoxys-E. Meanwhile Dual Screens can be set up by several other Pokemon so it isn't like the strategy is exclusive to Latios.
One could argue that Memento pushes it over the edge, but Uxie also has Memento. The only key differences between Uxie and Latios for a Memento set is that Latios has a very high base Speed which increases the chances of getting both screens and a memento off. Still the strategy has not been frequently abused on the ladder. The reason is because it just doesn't work as well as it did with Deoxys-E. I am inclined to say that the DS/Memento set is not going to push Latios over the edge.
 
Specs Draco Meteor is a beastly attack but it does not allow Latios to sweep any team that is prepared for it.
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The bold is the problem. How do you prepare for it? Bingo, special wall. But wait, what about teams that don't have one? Should they just lose every game (it freaking feels that way)? Now, take Blissey out of your team and try to repeat what you said. Even steels can't effectively take that attack.


Guru has a very strong point. We ban Garchomp for overcentralization, and we unban things because masscentralization is blinding us into thinking that we (as a community, not individuals) are ready for something that it can't handle. Chris is right in that we shouldn't base our opinions on whether we have to fix our teams, but to the extent that it has gone (and if you haven't played, don't comment on this) it's beyond ridiculous.

I've said it once and I'll say it again; if I have to have Blissey on my team, fuck Latios.
 
First off, it's not just 20 SpA. It's also 20 SpA, 10 Spe, and not having a SR weakness. Salamence would kill to be faster and neutral to SR. Anyway, this really isn't the topic to discuss this in. There's a Lati@s discussion topic available where you can theorymon all you want. This is for actual experiences with Latios in the suspect metagame.
 
Yes, Specs Draco Meteor from Latias is approximately 12.5% more powerful than Saalmences.

You can't just make the argument "add Scizor w/ SpDef EVs" because other than ultra special defensive Scizor / Tyranitar / Blissey, you can't stop this thing. In fact, Scizor and Tyranitar RARELY ran additional SpDef EVs until this guy shows up.

Offensive teams DO NOT have an answer to this... your only hope is to specially EV Scizor, or revenge kill it with Weavile. But you can't just say "oh this pokemon can't effortlessly sweep through the metagame" really because I don't even know what pokemon would fit that criteria.

Originally Posted by 100kvolts
Let it Draco Meteor, then switch in a Pursuiter to kill it.
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Lol, so let it kill something? There's always the wait until the counters are eliminated thing...
 
RaikouLover said:
Yes, Specs Draco Meteor from Latias is approximately 12.5% more powerful than Saalmences.

You can't just make the argument "add Scizor w/ SpDef EVs" because other than ultra special defensive Scizor / Tyranitar / Blissey, you can't stop this thing. In fact, Scizor and Tyranitar RARELY ran additional SpDef EVs until this guy shows up.
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Ok, I did not realize it was 12.5% more powerful.


Point taken. I'll stop arguing.

I've deleted my awful posts. I should really not post at 2:30am.

Anyway I think I've been looking at this the wrong way. My team is able to deal with it, but that is because I play defensively. If offensive teams truly have no way of dealing with Latios then I suppose he is Uber.
 
Well with the Latias vote they said you needed the Standard ladder initially, then said something else later, so just to be safe I'd manage both ladders.
 
Last time it was only on the Suspect ladder, I can't imagine it will change.

Specsmence is almost completely inferior to Latios now. Latios has higher Special Attack even with a neutral nature, which means he can utilise a +Speed nature more effectively than Specsmence.

The only thing Mence does better is the Fire attack.
 
diamondfan1910 said:
Specsmence is almost completely inferior to Latios now. Latios has higher Special Attack even with a neutral nature, which means he can utilise a +Speed nature more effectively than Specsmence.

The only thing Mence does better is the Fire attack.
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Not to mention that salamence cannot learn ice beam and thunderbolt, two important moves that are able to cover the majority of the OU metagame. Even if Salamence does get fire blast (and latios doesn't), HP fire on latios is more than enough to OHKO scizor and 2HKO other steels.

I can guarantee that specsmence will be obsolete by the time latios makes it into standard play.
 
Specs Mence has the advantage of a lure over latias. Most people switch blissey into latias, but switch swampert and hippowdon into salamence, therefore in some matches specs mence will do more then specs latias. Also, the majority of matches I play are either against stall or triple dragon, triple steel.
 
Hmmm...I've just used my normal OU Ladder team and switched Latias with Latios and I'm not having any problems. 2 Steels, 2 Dragons, Gyarados and Heracross.

I also find that it's nearly 100% of the time, that you can revenge kill Latios after its attacked with CB Pursuit from Scizor, or if it for some reason is a Calm Mind set which is inferior to Latias and just gets destroyed by Scizor and Tyranitar anyway, or if it even fails to 2HKO Scizor.

Really, 2-3 Steels is standard in OU. Usually Metagross and Scizor. I'm actually having more trouble with DDMence once I lose my Steels, Latios usually does some damage and is fainted soon after.
 
Misa said:
Not to mention that salamence cannot learn ice beam and thunderbolt, two important moves that are able to cover the majority of the OU metagame. Even if Salamence does get fire blast (and latios doesn't), HP fire on latios is more than enough to OHKO scizor and 2HKO other steels.

I can guarantee that specsmence will be obsolete by the time latios makes it into standard play.
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Well, Latios doesn't really need Ice Beam because of his Dragon STAB, but T-bolt can be useful.

Triple Dragon/Steel seems to have issues with Lucario. The Steels take Super Effective damage and those that take neutral damage like Metagross and Scizor are usually killed anyway, and the Dragons aren't bulky enough to take his Extremespeeds. I've been trying triple dragon/double steel/Ghost and it's working well.

Kingtios is too good. Latios can bait and weaken the Steels which makes an Outrage sweep all the more effective. Kingdra with Leftovers is way too bulky and is probably the best late game sweeper in the current metagame. Assuming I make it to the voting requirements in 2 months I'm on the fence between OU and Uber.

On the subject of Dual Screen, I usually switch in Scizor and U-turn to kill the Latios with Reflect up or not, bring in my Scarf Jirachi and Trick the Scarf over to Gliscor so it can't pass. If there's no Scarf I end up bringing him in anyway to stall some of the Screen turns with Iron Head.
 
Salamence can be made more than bulky enough to beat Lucario, and if one of those Steels is Scarf Heatran you can say lol to Lucario...
 
SpecsMence is NOT obselete because of Latios! SpecsMence has Specs Flamethrower and Hydro Pump, two very powerful and very useful Steel-beating moves. Hydro Pump has amazing neutral coverage with Dragon as does Fire... so with SpecsMence, you actually will outdamage Steels anyway and it literally is Pick Dragon Move, or Pick Fire / Water move...
 
Surf is normally superior to Hydro Pump, though. Surf does mostly the same job with the advantage of always hitting.
 
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