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np: Latios - "unban me"

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Hm After a looooooooooong time away from playing I returned last month during which I learned to play this new generation (I stopped when Shoddy was released iirc). Started playing the suspect ladder now and I saw that it isn't too different from the test of Latias. Although there is a slightly greater centralization, Latios does not do anything that his sister don't and for now is being used in the same way she was.

The set with Memento or DDance are the two innovations but they can be used with greater or equal efficiency by other pokemons (Salamence and Uxie say hi).

I'm playing with a team that I'm also using in the Standard Ladder and he is doing pretty well against these Steel Dragon teams. Although I think they are just passengers, as AgiliGross , Jolteon, Agiliempoleon and other pokes can give a good headache agaisnt this kind of teams if well played as they do against any offensive teams. Probrably the metagame will be still dominated by Dragon and Steel types but with more equilibrium between the other types . Of course it's just speculation.

I'll try to make a new team with Latios to see how he impacts my game for now :D

And on a side note about DS BP Gliscor (with any Screener, not only Latios): this strategy should be banned for the same reason of baton chain in adv. there are very few, specific and specialezed counters and it requires no skill at all to use

Edit: I am playing under the name of Kill me Sarah right now
 
After more playing, it is clear that Latios is a lot more tame than Latias. It could still be that people are still trying to use Latios like Latias, but I tested the more offensive sets (Specs, CM Life Orb, DD Mix) and they were all pretty lackluster. It still gets revenged by things like Tyranitar and Scizor, and without the extra Special Defense it actually has to worry about Ice Beam.

I have had similar experiences in Mosh in that I have also seen Empoleon and Aglility Metagross tearing through the suspect metagame. The sheer number of offensive team creates an environment wherein Agility users can thrive, since a large amount of attack is generally not necessary to sweep entire teams.

Latios' extra Special Attack is nice for taking down Blissey, but overall the drop in Special Defense (and Defense to a lesser extent) makes Latios a good bit less effective against a number of other pokemon (empoleon, infernape, suicune, et al).
 
Well Guru, Stage 3 is when suspects will all be tested in conjunction.

Well, I tried Latios out for the first time tonight. And wow, that thing hits hard and fast. It is definitely a much different metagame.
 
Well before I start, I'm going to say that I fully understand the procedure for doing things. We test in isolation so that "another suspect doesn't result in the pokemon being uber." This makes sense, because otherwise we have a large circle of retesting to see if something else keeps it in check (essentially why we have stage 3).

Guru has an excellent point though. What if another suspect ends up actually making the other uber in some fashion, with Standard being the testing grounds for this? They aren't uber in a "suspect free" metagame, but are by some method determined uber in a suspect allowed metagame. Is standard screwed until stage 3, or are there precautions to prevent this without breaking mechanics (like banning suspects from being on the same team)?

I'm not predicting this will happen by any means, but I'd rather the possibility be recognized before it's too late.
 
So far I haven't found Latios that troublesome. I, like many others it seems, have been using a specially defensive Scizor in my team, but it really hasn't hindered me: I used the same Scizor in my previous team before Latios was around. So far the most troublesome Latios to me, has been Surf / Draco Meteor / Hidden Power Fire / Recover. Specs Latios is still monstrously powerful, but seems to be taken down very easily. I use Specs Latios on my team for the raw power, and quite frankly, it often faints early game.

I've also seen a huge increase in Magma Storm / Hidden Power Grass Heatran, and many more Vaporeon paired with it, obviously to provide the support against Specs Latios' Surf (although 4 HP / 0 SpD Heatran still takes 50.31% - 59.26% from Timid Specs Draco Meteor).

I've used the Memento / Light Screen / Reflect Latios a bit and I must say I was disappointed. I'm hoping to try out a mixed set soon too, something along the lines of Draco Meteor / Hidden Power Fire / Earthquake / Recover, which looks pretty threatening. I also cannot wait to try out Refresh Latios.

/edit: After trying it out, I must say I am in love with Recover / HP Fire / EQ / DM Latios with Life Orb...I've found it so much better than Specs etc.
 
Hm played a little more today and tried several different teams (even played with an stalls one which I am not very accustomed to do). Used Latios with Specs, Sub, Refresh and frankly I prefer his bulkier sister who does not get OHKO so easily (I always liked Latias better for some unknown reason)

Because these tests (most times I played with brand new teams without previous play with it) my rating sank from 1800 to 1650 but that's okay, I've just made a new team for the standard ladder and I'll try to play with it in suspect later.

I already used Latios with Specs, Sub and Refresh, thinking about trying an eq variant afterwards

So far didin't see anything special in Latios for a ban.
 
One thing that has been really striking to me about most of the Latioses running around on the Suspect ladder is how slow many of them are. One of the Lati@s twins' greatest assets is their dynamite speed, letting them outspeed all but a select few of the metagame's threats. However, an incredible percentage of the Latioses I run into seem to be using a speed neutral nature, allowing them to be outsped by base 100 speed Pokemon such as Salamence (!) and even Jirachi (I've been using max speed, 299 Atk Iron Head/Body Slam/Fire Punch/Stealth Rock as a lead). I assume that some of these are Modest Specs Latios and some are Dragon Dancing mixed Latios, but the lack of speed on a Pokemon that really depends on speed is pretty silly, in my opinion. As far as I'm concerned, 329 to outspeed Salamence is the absolute minimum speed that either Lati@s should run, so I would never even consider a speed neutral nature....

Edit: Sudo, that Weavile set is a fantastic idea. I bet that would even work against Screen BP in Ubers.
 
The Dual Screen+Memento Latios + BP Gliscor combo is especially annoying, so I had to modify my Weavile a bit to stop it. I get Weavile in just as Latios uses Memento, Taunt the Gliscor switch-in, and either Brick Break the screens or switch out to a counter for the inevitable Scizor who thinks he's so great with Bullet Punch, lol.

Without the bulk I find that Latios is easier to take down than his counterpart, but as a result it's much harder to switch in a check or a counter; often times I find I have to sacrifice something if I don't switch in on a Surf, Dragon Pulse, or a Calm Mind. Draco Meteor is monstrous!
 
imo they should run at least enogh evs to outspeed Infernape and in almost any case the best is just to maximize speed (if you are going to 347, why not 350 to t tie with other lati@s?), unless you are using a defensive Latias in a Stall Team or a Dancer, but yeah, i don't get the thing with Modest Latios too.

And people should stop using Memento Latios with Gliscor, it's just boring and requires no skill to use =/
 
reachzero said:
One thing that has been really striking to me about most of the Latioses running around on the Suspect ladder is how slow many of them are.
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You have to be extrmely lucky reachzero, I run timid max speed latios and I always lose the speed tie with other latios.
Besides that, I'm happy to see that a lot more people is playing the suspect now, it was so annoying having to wait 10 minutes to find a battle.
Also, I don't know about the server statistics, but I'm quite sure that specs sets are the most used at the moment. Specs draco meteor is monstrous but I'm starting to think that it's not as unstoppable as I previously thought, especially considering the abundance of CB tyranitar-scizor ready to revenge-kill latios.
 
I have a brilliant idea.

Let's worry about Latios + Latias once it's actually a concern?

So early in the test we don't even know if Latios is going to be going into standard play and to theorymon about it now (which, I believe, Jump specifically warns against) is completely pointless.


-----

On the note of Latios, I've personally found the Specs set most potent. I'll usually switch out first turn to see if they bring in their Tyranitar / Scizor and then find my owns means of dealing with it (or just Surfing instead) before going for the all out Draco Meteor.
 
Draco Meteor off the bat is pointless, since whatever they switch-in can likely take it. Either switch or use another attack, like Caelum said. Draco Meteor is for later on when you know what they have left and if they can handle it. Using it too early is asking to get destroyed by Pursuit.
 
GFGuru said:
Im really not arguing in favor of latios or latias. This could be a suspect metagame testing clefable and for some reason we removed scizor. All im saying is it makes no sense at all.
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Something you missed here: we don't know that Latias is permanently OU. We know that she tested OU in Stage 2, and she correspondingly has an OU Stage 2 tag. If she passes Stage 3, she will be permanently OU. Until Stage 3, a Suspect is a Suspect, and their status is provisional until the whole test is over. Allow multiple Suspects in the same test and the results will be skewed.
 
Latios has worked well for me with a 2 Atk Life Orb set with Refresh and Recover, but I plan on changing it. Other Latios tend not to hit as hard as I thought and my Choice Scarf Jirachi is my go-to switch-in, although I plan on trying a Specially Defensive Scizor; what I'd like to know is how Specially Defensive you guys are making yours, out of interest? I'm going to try out 252 HP/56 Atk/200 SpDef Adamant, as it hits the magic number of boosting 508 Atk to 511 (!!!) with a Choice Band.

Kingdra has yet to be tested for me, but my DDTar has been able to sweep a large amount of opposing teams. Haven't seen a Magnezone at all, I thought you'd like to know.
 
GFGuru said:
Thats brilliant. Lets go ahead and have a broken standard metagame while its actully a problem. hypothetically if latios is broken in a metagame with latias then what are we gonna do ban him again and have wasted an entire month? Take a vote and decide who would we rather have latios or latias? either way thats a month wasted.
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To be perfectly honest, you have a point that I'm surprised no one has brought up until now. It was never my personal intention to actually allow Suspects that were given Stage 2 OU tags to be thrown into standard. This is kind of what happened with Deoxys-S when its bold vote in July 2008 came out OU but it was kept in Standard, even though it was a Suspect. I remember talking with Aeolus or someone about it a few days after I learned that it hadn't been taken off the Standard Ladder, and he told me that he thought it didn't really matter that much since Suspects given a Stage 2 OU tag were for all intents and purposes OU.

When you think about it, we could keep every Suspect out of Standard until Stage 3. Or you could do what we're doing now, which is including pokemon that have proven, in the only way we know, that they are not broken. If Latios gets a Stage 2 OU tag, it will play out with Latias until further notice. Fine. You realize we're going to have to do something similar in Stage 3, don't you? And more importantly, that it's every bit as "wrong" by your "no sense" argument to keep Latias out of Standard for another full year until Stage 3 when she very likely is OU? It really comes down to gaining as much experience with Suspects as possible, since I can and will adjust the Standard Metagame if anything proves really broken on there (unless you think Garchomp and Deoxys-S should still be on there).

That said, you don't get to repost deleted posts.
 
If we kept Stage 2 "OU" Pokemon out of OU, then I wouldn't really see the point of labeling a suspect at all since Stage 3 overrides all of them. We could just have a month long isolation test, discuss the effects, move on.

That being said, I still don't understand what the purpose of Stage 1 is for, but that's not really relevant to the whole "label" issue and if I don't get it after rereading the entirety of PR (I happened to agree with Aldaron) I'm pretty much doomed, so yeah.

The "Species Clause" Latios / Latias together issue: How is this different than Salamence / Dragonite?
 
Chris is me said:
If we kept Stage 2 "OU" Pokemon out of OU, then I wouldn't really see the point of labeling a suspect at all since Stage 3 overrides all of them. We could just have a month long isolation test, discuss the effects, move on.

That being said, I still don't understand what the purpose of Stage 1 is for, but that's not really relevant to the whole "label" issue and if I don't get it after rereading the entirety of PR (I happened to agree with Aldaron) I'm pretty much doomed, so yeah.

The "Species Clause" Latios / Latias together issue: How is this different than Salamence / Dragonite?
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It isn't different at all, in my opinion.

-They are different pokemon entirely, confirmed by their separate classification under the pokedex. They are not alternate forms, like Deoxys.

If that's what you were asking.
 
I think there has been talk of keeping them off the same team for being "too similar." Blaziken/Infernape is another example.

Anyways, I'm not liking the general attitude towards this. Everytime I talk about Latios and how it may be too much, I always hear "It's manageable." Hearing this lessens my view on the test, because that should not be how people base their opinions.

I just want to remind people that they shouldn't base their opinions on this concept, because if that was true then Deoxys-A would be suspect. Being manageable has nothing to do with whether it should be OU.


On a side note, am I the only one facing stall in every match? I hate fighting 4 physical walls and Blissey. It's ridiculously annoying.
 
The choice specs set is probably the best set I tried so far. It hits ridiculously hard and Blissey hates getting a choice item. I haven't found any other set particularly useful.

It's kinda hard to use it early game with all those steels but once you bring it in at the right time it's gonna do some damage.
 
Originally Posted by Veedrock
On a side note, am I the only one facing stall in every match? I hate fighting 4 physical walls and Blissey. It's ridiculously annoying.
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Duh, that's the way the community wants it. The community wants counters for every pokemon... why else would people be calling for Salamence tests and Stealth Rock tests and all that other nonsense?

I think offense is seriously on the decline...
 
Yeh, actually, I agree with RaikouLover on that point. It seems that ever since GSC, Game Freak have tried to make the game more offensive. Quite a lot of threats appeared in ADV, but stall was still dominant. Now we've gotten DPPt, everyone seems to want the game to be more like ADV again. Perhaps it's meant to be far more offensive with things like Garchomp running around? It obviously seems that way. Ah well.

As for Latios, currently, nearly every team on the ladder is geared towards making sure Latios does not beat you. Metagross, Scizor, Tyranitar, Vaporeon, Heatran etc seem to be even more common than usual. It's hard to have a real testing ground when everyone is letting latios be overcentralizing, so I'm not sure what to think. I used an old team for my first few matches, then I just replaced Specs Salamence with Specs Latios to get a different picture. I've had very mixed results so far.
 
Memento Screen Latios is extremely annoying. Can't stop gliscor from passing. But yea my team is geared to test latios and stopping it, pretty hard to judge if its ou or uber thus far.
 
I think we can judge to an extent if Latios is uber if we examine our teams. I may be wrong, but I think that _most_ teams have been tailored to beat Latios, its counters, and steels. Sure, they might stop Latios cold. But how will that same team fare in the regular Standard environment? Does someone like Yanmega walk all over you?

If the teams can't fare well in the standard environment, but does well in the Suspect environment, then I think we can say that Latios requires you to have an overspecialised team to beat it, it's uber material.

Note that I am not saying that Latios is uber.
 
I am VERY surprised at how well Double Status Rotom-h is working. Throw out Thunder Waves early to catch those nasty Heatrans and Latios that switch in thinking they can kill you, and you can Will-O-Wisp Tyranitars, Salamences and other nasties. Overheat decimates the Steels that run amok (most notably Scizor and Metagross) and most aren't fond of Will-O-Wisps either.

I'm going to try out a leading Mamoswine, as with a Life Orb and a few HP EVs he should be able to beat most of the standard leads barring Infernape, some Heatran and a flinch from Choice Scarf Jirachi anti-leads when running EQ/SR/Ice Shard/Stone Edge. Anyone got any thoughts on leadMamo?

I've come to believe that Swampert may be the best lead in today's metagame as there are no other (common) leads that beat him. However, he's slow and can't stop the Suicide leads from setting up Stealth Rock, as even if they Taunt he doesn't have a priority move to nick their sash with. He's also vulnerable to being tricked Choice Scarves from Jirachi and Metagross, and being blown up on by Azelf and said Metagross. The lead is the hardest part of the team to choose for me.

EDIT: I've found you no longer have to wait several minutes for a battle and can find one in 2 - 3 minutes tops. Plus, you actually play different people. Maybe this is because Latios' offense makes him easier/more fun to use?
 
Originally, I was extremely sceptical of Latios, but I must say it doesn't seem to be much of a problem. I would definitely say the best set I have used is Earthquake / Hidden Power Fire / Draco Meteor / Recover with Life Orb. Latios seems really easy to take down though, especially whereas Latias was much more troublesome to take down due to the higher defenses. So far, I must say I quite like Latios in standard.
 
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