np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 7 - Diamonds [Read post #226] [BANNED]

[SlashKing]

The reason Sabe needs to go is not because there is a way/no way to beat it. Of course there are ways to beat any pokemon, but it's mostly based on pure luck (if you happen to bring the right pokemon to the battle). Even then it's not just Sabe that will be a problem. Since it's 6v6, it is the collective team that comes with it as a whole. That complete team will allow Sabe to find a way to stall until it's counter is unable to damage it. Whether by wilo wisp, having a team mate whirlwind, or switching into a mon like quagsire or clef with unaware and scald, toxic or t-wave to neutralize any possibility of being a threat. If the opponent tries to stat boost, Sabe's team will just use Clefable or chancey to set up hazards and different status moves along with Skarm or quagsire to make it almost impossible to have an opportunity to make a decent attack. Stall is fine to a certain extent but there has to be a balance when it comes to fair competition. When I ladder I see at least 10-15 teams everyday that are basically copycat teams of Sabe and they are always the most frustrating teams to deal with. There is pretty much a slim to none chance of predicting every single move. You basically have to be perfect at predicting or just literally be perfect to beat that type of team. It only takes one wrong move to ruin the whole battle. Any other type of team gives more chances to make errors. There may be times when a player makes a mistake or has a crit happen that might cause them to be at a disadvantage but usually there is still a chance that they could figure out a way to win but in a Sabe battle if you lose any pokemon it's basically impossible to come back from it. I say for the greater good of the Tier it's time to say goodbye to Mega-Sableye.

 

[GlassVeins]

i don't want to sound dumb, but I think that hazards, while they are very nice, don't always win the game. Sometimes, getting a boost or a big hit when the opponent thinks you're going to set up hazards can be absolutely devastating.For example, very little on stall can stop Manaphy, and a clever switch can allow it to set up freely or just fish for a burn. Getting hazards up can be a double edged sword, imo. Not being able to taunt is obnoxious, but that isn't game ending either(yeah, I may get nailed on that one) For these reasons, I think that M-SAbleye should not be banned.

 

[MorgothSauron]

I want to say, first off, I am not a great OU battler. I don't know everything about the tier. However, I've played it for a while now and I have seen a lot of strategies. Few people actually think that Mega Sableye is broken, simply bad in the meta. However, I have to disagree with this. First off, while it does have great defensive stats, its hp does it no favors. Anything with a super effective move or strong offensive presence can easily get through it. It does, obviously, work against entry hazards, but stall teams (one of the main reasons why it is suspected) usually have ways to remove them anyway. Also, Sableye has roles other than stall. It serves a supporting role on balanced teams as well. Without Mega Sableye, many Pokemon in the tier with weaknesses to stealth rocks would be greatly weakened, notably Charizard, Talonflame, and Tornadus. People all want to weaken stall, but they forget that balance teams will suffer as well. There are many ways to get around Sableye as it is though, not just strong offense or fairy types. Stall teams can be effective, but most can be brought down by one prediction that forces them to switch into an attack, and once one pokemon on a stall team goes down, it loses its edge. It no longer has "something for everything." A metagame is just adapting strategies to counter threats. Maybe the meta needs to adapt around Sableye, not just take it out. Besides, this meta will only last three weeks before Sun and Moon replaces it. I'll be sad to see it go, honestly. I've rather liked this gen's OU. But for all these reasons, I will vote don't ban.

 

[PK Gaming]

Yeah, I also take issue with the "Sableye can be countered ergo it's fine" arguments. Sableye can absolutely be countered; that was never the issue. Arguments like "just run Heatran/Clefable to beat it" straight up ignore the fact that Pokemon is a team based game. Good stall teams take countermeasures to account for anti-Sableye Pokemon, and as ABR pointed out, even "counters" Heatran and Clefable are significantly hindered in the long run by Sableye itself via Knock Off. Ultimately, both sides bring up some valid points but I find myself leaning towards pro ban because Sableye is such a mindless and inelegant (though I realize the latter point is not at all relevant to discussion) option for shutting down stall counterplay.

 

[FatSwellow]

Now, there's one thing that I'd like to say: Counters =/= Balance. Just because Stealth Rock Clefable and other fire types can get past this monster, doesn't mean it's automatically healthy for the OU metagame.

My main reason, however, it that it has way too much versatility for even the mega slot. Before mega-evolving, it has access to Prankster Will-o-Wisp, shutting down lots of common physical attackers and possibly putting other attackers on various timers. On top of that, it gets (priority) Recover that complements its builk well. After mega-evolving, Sableye turns into a defensive beast, and Magic Bounce makes this worse by not allowing any direct status to harm Sableye, and even handling the hazard game well. Assuming Sableye is being faced off against a counter like Clefable, it can at least knock off its item, and with it's incredible bulk, it can survive lots of neutral hits before switching. As well as that, the rare Foul Play and Toxic can respectively discourage set-up sweepers from coming in, and put all sorts of pokemon on timers.

TL;DR: COUNTERS =/= BALANCE, and BAN MEGA SABLEYE.

 

[Niadev]

If you're that paranoid of the off chance MegaSab pops up - you might as well make an argument for banning Shedninja.
That being said, I can relate to that and your case tbh (minus the hax, that's not relevant imo or reflective of ones skill as a player).

To say that it has an influence on teambuilding to that acute of a degree as well, i'd say is complete bollocks really. If you build a team and find it loses to Mega Sableye or any of it's stall-supporting teammates - then just keep it in mind and don't let it get to your head. Simple as.

"it has an influence on teambuilding to that acute of a degree" lol what? If a single Pokemon makes someone seriously consider an otherwise barely ever considered set just to have a better chance of not outright losing to a playstyle which the Pokemon forces the things the set does to be borderline required,or at least means you have to make plays on much higher prediction levels than one can be used to much more frequently, then I'd say it's influence on teambuilding is a lot more than just "acute". Personally, I'd say that amount of influence is complete bollocks. Rocks Clef is pretty meh outside of beating MSab and maybe getting hazards up vs Latios and some hazard removers, because you would much rather have another coverage move, or, ideally, TWave, the move that is a large part of what makes Clef so good. Rocks Heatran was better in the past but it's somewhat bad now outside of MSab because now Latios typically carries Surf just for it, and most other hazard removers can beat Heatran, not to mention Duggy traps Heatran for stall anyways. So yeah, that also shows the niche rockers that were used just for MSab don't even work anymore.

The difference between Shed and MSab is that you can accidentally prepare for Shedinja pretty easily, most notably via rocks or any form of status, which many stallbreakers carry. Ofc Shedinja stall with MSab is a different story but you get the idea. If I don't go out of my way to prepare for MSab, I'm going to be "steamrolled" by MSab stall on the offchance it does appear - that's why I prepare for it anyways. As MSab receives enough usage to be OU, I have to prepare for it, because it's common enough to be relevant (though the general trend of only getting around to playing 3 games before tilt comes into effect because of aforementioned factors reduces the chances I encounter it).

 

[Eoin482]

Just wanted to point something out because the arguments I am reading on this point, while not significant for the Sableye suspect, are incredibly poor.

If Sableye goes, we lose Medicham. Full stop. If you disagree, try this simple thought experiment:

List all the Pokemon in your head that you think stall will now use as a Medicham switch in. Now, on the count of 3, say "Pursuit".

I don't think keeping Sableye because of Medicham is a coherent argument but since people are saying it invalidates other Pokemon (who really even enjoys the game without lead Ferrothorn), I think it's worth acknowledging that if it goes, other things will become either less viable or unstable.

Tl;dr: this is a change for the sake of change, no ban

 

[HailFall]

These "mega medicham will be broken without sableye" assertions are fundamentally flawed. like this has been said many times before but if mega medicham truly becomes problematic that can be dealt with at a later time and i doubt it will, as I see little probability that it was kept in check entirely by a mon with less than 10% usage even on the highest and most stall-heavy end of the ladder. Not to mention that sableye doesn't even check medi that well considering it has to constantly recover and risk a freeze. If sableye goes, stalls will just find new ways to deal with mega medicham such as reuniclus, cresselia, mega slowbro, and mew. Pursuit users can be kept in check by dugtrio, but most stalls are weak to pursuit regardless so that's not much of a change lol. This is not a relevant anti-ban argument.

Also to people who say "the gen is almost over, no point in suspecting it now", keep in mind that this gen will still be played in tournaments even after sun and moon comes out, and smogon has a whole community of old gens players. This suspect test is still relevant even with SM just around the corner, and the timing of the suspect test really should not affect your position. Better late than never is how I see it.

 

[volx757]

"it has an influence on teambuilding to that acute of a degree" lol what? If a single Pokemon makes someone seriously consider an otherwise barely ever considered set just to have a better chance of not outright losing to a playstyle which the Pokemon forces the things the set does to be borderline required,or at least means you have to make plays on much higher prediction levels than one can be used to much more frequently, then I'd say it's influence on teambuilding is a lot more than just "acute". Personally, I'd say that amount of influence is complete bollocks. .

Why is MSab making you seriously consider otherwise unviable sets? There are quite a few standard play mons that can beat it. In fact even the pro-ban side is conceding that MSab is far from impossible to take down. You really don't need to be taking it so far, most teams should probably have a steel/fire/fairy or some combo of the three anyway just to be good at all in the current meta, so there's MSab taken care of. No additional exertion necessary.

Edit: If this post is just about the challenge of getting hazards up against MSab, and not killing it, then I would repeat what someone said above me:

"You are not entitled to your hazards. You have to work for them. This does not mean you should ban things that prevent that."

 

[Niadev]

Why is MSab making you seriously consider otherwise unviable sets? There are quite a few standard play mons that can beat it. In fact even the pro-ban side is conceding that MSab is far from impossible to take down. You really don't need to be taking it so far, most teams should probably have a steel/fire/fairy or some combo of the three anyway just to be good at all in the current meta, so there's MSab taken care of. No additional exertion necessary.

Beating it isn't the problem, it's getting hazards up against it that is, meaning you have to force it out and set hazards on the switch, hence Rocks Clef and Heatran (though setting rocks on the switch is an invitation for a potential Duggy to trap and remove you, allowing a Defogger to remove your progress in the hazards game).

 

[onlyheretocomplain]

A word that has hardly come up here is "fun". Is Wonder Trio a fun team to place against? Do you like 200 turns of double switches and 50-50s? Do you like having to slap HP Fire on your Manaphy or Rock Slide on your Gliscor to beat stall, at the risk of losing to HO and balance?

Fun is a subjective thing, but in the long term, the future of competitive Pokemon depends on it.

i don't want to sound dumb, but I think that hazards, while they are very nice, don't always win the game. Sometimes, getting a boost or a big hit when the opponent thinks you're going to set up hazards can be absolutely devastating.For example, very little on stall can stop Manaphy, and a clever switch can allow it to set up freely or just fish for a burn. Getting hazards up can be a double edged sword, imo. Not being able to taunt is obnoxious, but that isn't game ending either(yeah, I may get nailed on that one) For these reasons, I think that M-SAbleye should not be banned.

If two players are equally skilled, the team whose Pokemon are at 100% health will usually beat the team whose Pokemon are at 87% health. You're right in that you lose a turn by setting up rocks, but the opponent loses a turn by clearing them.

 

[Joycap]

Beating it isn't the problem, it's getting hazards up against it that is, meaning you have to force it out and set hazards on the switch, hence Rocks Clef and Heatran (though setting rocks on the switch is an invitation for a potential Duggy to trap and remove you, allowing a Defogger to remove your progress in the hazards game).

So you ARE hustled about it 'not being able get up hazards vs'...
This is what I mean by not autopiloting around a certain mentality. You seem to have taken hazards for granted, and are upset that Mega Sableye does that well against them.

This is also why I mentioned how Defog should be more relevant in general if Sab-M is REALLY that centralizing. As far as i'm aware: OU is lacking spinblockers, even with Mega Sableye around. A thus - no wonder you bought up about being on tilt.

 

[Niadev]

So you ARE hustled about it 'not being able get up hazards vs'...
This is what I mean by not autopiloting around a certain mentality. You seem to have taken hazards for granted, and are upset that Mega Sableye does that well against them.

This is also why I mentioned how Defog should be more relevant in general if Sab-M is REALLY that centralizing. As far as i'm aware: OU is lacking spinblockers, even with Mega Sableye around. A thus - no wonder you bought up about being on tilt.

I don't take rocks for granted, hell in a number of games I barely get around to getting them up. It's just that facing stall has a lot of switches, and the side that can punish that more, via rocks, will have the advantage - Mega Sableye makes the hazard game uphill for the other player and gives stall an unfair advantage in the chip department if you're not using one of the select few 'mons that can get rocks up vs it, and beating stall without the chip damage of rocks can be very difficult, which is what makes Mega Sableye so good on stall. Facing stall when stall has rocks up and you don't is like trying to win a tug of war with someone repeatedly hitting you with a stick while they don't have any such stick beating shenanigans.

 

[cityscapes]

Before I begin writing this post, I'd like to say that I've kept these thoughts in my mind since before I even looked at the thread, so please don't accuse me of bandwagoning or anything like that. Thanks.

I would like to ban Mega Sableye. This post, made months before the suspect, explains it well:

These charts represent what any stall builder already knew, Sable is literally choking out the stall meta. The answer is pretty easy: Sable is more oppressive to stall teams than he actually is to offense teams, in the fact that stall rarely has the power to destroy sable. So quite realistically, Stall either runs sable or loses to sable. It is kinda (very) unhealthy to stall's general health, but there doesn't seem to be much to do about it.

So yeah, this was mostly to show that the numbers can now prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that sableye-m is capable of choking out an entire subset of a style (aka non-sable stall). Take what you want from this, I'm just praying Gen7 shafts this P.O.S. mon.

And that's not all. As we've seen earlier in this thread, Mega Sableye has forced balance and offense teams to use suboptimal sets like Rocks Clef just to get up hazards. However, it's worst for stall: Some people have mentioned that "oh, even in the current meta people have made good stall teams without sableye", but because these teams, among other things, need a guaranteed answer to Sableye stall, they struggle to function as well against offense, while Sableye can stop Stealth Rock users found on every playstyle.

What would happen to the meta should we ban it?

I can't really speak from experience because the suspect ladder is really hectic from what I've seen: People are using Stallbreaker Mew, but there doesn't seem to be any stall to break. However, the following things seem likely to happen:

• Other defensive Megas, like Mega Slowbro, will become prevalent.
• Passive Stealth Rock setters, such as Ferrothorn, will see more use. Look at how Sableye impacted the usage of two such defensive Stealth Rock setters:

big image

Garchomp used to enjoy much more usage, but when Mega Sableye took over, Garchomp started having to run Lum Berry to do better against stall, limiting its effectiveness against offense because it couldn't use Rocky Helmet at the same time. This forced it to choose its matchups instead of being good in general. Hippowdon just did nothing against Mega Sableye.

On the "not being able to set up Stealth Rock isn't bad" argument: The thing about stall is that in older generations, the way to beat stall was to get up hazards and force switches, wearing down the stall Pokémon little by little; some teams could skillfully play around stall even without a designated stallbreaker. However, in this meta, beating stall consists of running something stupidly powerful, like Crawdaunt, and winning. Against a Mega Sableye team, if you don't bring something like Crawdaunt, you won't win unless the opponent plays really badly.

On the "stop complaining and use a stallbreaker, Rocks Clef, etc. to adapt to the meta" argument: This argument is stupid. Did running Earthquake on their Fighting-types just to beat Aegislash help people against other threats? Was Porygon2, although an effective counter to Greninja, useful in stall matchups? No. Rocks Clef is just the latest "bad but it helps beat this threat" set people are using. (Note: Please don't take this as me thinking Mega Sableye is broken. It's been gone over in this thread multiple times, and it's not why Mega Sableye is even being suspected.)

Ban Mega Sableye. Please.

 

[Joycap]

I don't take rocks for granted, hell in a number of games I barely get around to getting them up. It's just that facing stall has a lot of switches, and the side that can punish that more, via rocks, will have the advantage - Mega Sableye makes the hazard game uphill for the other player and gives stall an unfair advantage in the chip department if you're not using one of the select few 'mons that can get rocks up vs it, and beating stall without the chip damage of rocks can be very difficult, which is what makes Mega Sableye so good on stall. Facing stall when stall has rocks up and you don't is like trying to win a tug of war with someone repeatedly hitting you with a stick while they don't have any such stick beating shenanigans.

Could I ask weather the stall teams that normally run Mega Sableye set up hazards directly, or rely on the opponent falling for Magic Bounce?

This would come back to the point I bought up about Mega Sableye only having synergy on stall (as good as that synergy is). If it's the former, maybe it's better to focus down some of it's supports and predict switches (specifically the thing setting up it's own hazards) and counter accordingly?

 

[Aberforth]

Why are people thinking of rocks as the only way to punish stall? People are relying on outdated ideas about what works when it comes to winning vs stall and are not considering the natural changes that have happened to the dynamic of playing stall. Rocks up and endlessly double doesn't work anymore.

To the idea that preparing for a dominant threat is a bad idea, that's stupid. We're not looking at a situation like Porygon2 for Greninja or running EQ on their flying types, we're talking about making adaptions to huge mons in the metagame that work well in many matchups, not just the ones with Sableye in. Is someone really going to say that SD Lando-T is useless unless you come across a Sableye team? Or hey, using a rocker that isn't forced out by Latios in Rocks Clef, which also frees up mons like Lando/Tran/Garchomp to be more offensively focused as well.

And as for the idea that people shouldn't have to run stallbreakers, if you choose not to run stallbreakers, you dont get the right to complain when you lose against stall. Finch already did a post showcasing replays from tour games where Sableye and Non-Sableye stalls were brought and the general theme was "If you prepared to face any stall, you won. If you didn't prepare, you lost."

Also, as for that graph... you realise the difference there is due to the way we collect usage data, right? The two massive drops were Venu and Sab... because the base forms weren't being used before anyway, we just had them appearing in the usage stats as if they did. If your point is that Venu Stalls are getting less common: 1, why is that a bad thing and 2, that graph shows that it's quite cyclical. Venu and Sab's usage will both rise and fall depending on meta trends. And as for passive-ass do nothing mons rising in popularity, I dont consider that a good thing. First of all, those mons can literally be dealt with by Xatu, because passive mons cant do jack nor shit to any magic bouncer aside from Diancie, just ask FlamingVictini, and secondly passive mons being punished is something I see as being good for the meta, you have to put more effort into games in order to win them.

 

[Joycap]

Also, as for that graph... you realise the difference there is due to the way we collect usage data, right? The two massive drops were Venu and Sab... because the base forms weren't being used before anyway, we just had them appearing in the usage stats as if they did. If your point is that Venu Stalls are getting less common: 1, why is that a bad thing and 2, that graph shows that it's quite cyclical. Venu and Sab's usage will both rise and fall depending on meta trends. And as for passive-ass do nothing mons rising in popularity, I dont consider that a good thing. First of all, those mons can literally be dealt with by Xatu, because passive mons cant do jack nor shit to any magic bouncer aside from Diancie, just ask FlamingVictini, and secondly passive mons being punished is something I see as being good for the meta, you have to put more effort into games in order to win them.

I was about to say... That massive drop for Mega Sableye just goes back to my point of people grasping at straws again. If a mon with that little usage atm is even remotely banworthy - then... why do you care?

 

[Eoin482]

These "mega medicham will be broken without sableye" assertions are fundamentally flawed. like this has been said many times before but if mega medicham truly becomes problematic that can be dealt with at a later time and i doubt it will, as I see little probability that it was kept in check entirely by a mon with less than 10% usage even on the highest and most stall-heavy end of the ladder. Not to mention that sableye doesn't even check medi that well considering it has to constantly recover and risk a freeze. If sableye goes, stalls will just find new ways to deal with mega medicham such as reuniclus, cresselia, mega slowbro, and mew. Pursuit users can be kept in check by dugtrio, but most stalls are weak to pursuit regardless so that's not much of a change lol. This is not a relevant anti-ban argument.

Also to people who say "the gen is almost over, no point in suspecting it now", keep in mind that this gen will still be played in tournaments even after sun and moon comes out, and smogon has a whole community of old gens players. This suspect test is still relevant even with SM just around the corner, and the timing of the suspect test really should not affect your position. Better late than never is how I see it.

Saying Sableye is not a good check to Medicham because of ice punch freezes and the need to recover and that all stall should run Dugtrio; if any of this is the case we might as well give up and go home.

Again, I'm not suggesting the hypothetical effects of a Pokemon as a reason against a ban. My point is that appealing to Sableye's effect on the viability of Pokemon like spikes Ferro and Mew is just as flawed of an argument. There are plenty of viable mons in the tier, none of the things that would hypothetically see more use have any inherent right to be viable.

 

[Niadev]

Could I ask weather the stall teams that normally run Mega Sableye set up hazards directly, or rely on the opponent falling for Magic Bounce?

This would come back to the point I bought up about Mega Sableye only having synergy on stall (as good as that synergy is). If it's the former, maybe it's better to focus down some of it's supports and predict switches (specifically the thing setting up it's own hazards) and counter accordingly?

All the stall teams I've seen, be it via experience or seeing their imports, have some direct way of setting up rocks, because assuming the opponent would be dumb enough to set rocks up on MSab is pretty risky and not conducive to a consistent team, especially because. For example, ABR stall (or the import I have of it anyways) has rocks Chansey, the Wonder Trio import I have has rocks Seismitoad and the import of Tele stall has rocks Dugtrio.

It is true you can make switches and make general plays to beat stall, that's how most stall is beaten (even with stallbreakers, very few outright 6-0, bar very specific gliscor spreads vs Wonder Trio), it's just that MSab reduces the rewards of those doubles significantly - that's why hazards are so important vs stall, as it means doubles actually have some point to them. The reduced rewards can skew the match in the stall player's favour, hence why MSab is being tested - it can give the stall player a pretty useful advantage, even between two equally skilled opponents.

 

[Ajwf]

JoycapJoshST

Could I ask weather the stall teams that normally run Mega Sableye set up hazards directly, or rely on the opponent falling for Magic Bounce?

This would come back to the point I bought up about Mega Sableye only having synergy on stall (as good as that synergy is). If it's the former, maybe it's better to focus down some of it's supports and predict switches (specifically the thing setting up it's own hazards) and counter accordingly?

All Sable-Stall teams still carry their own stealth rockers. As for "Sable only having synergy on stall"... it's not really an issue or true (one of the no-ban people in this thread had been talking about using Sable on balance). Even in this case where Sable is found on stall more often than not, it really doesn't matter. Most stall mons are found on teams that have lots of innate bulk. Only a few mons like Heatran can really and truly be anywhere from stall to hyper offense.

Also, as for that graph... you realise the difference there is due to the way we collect usage data, right? The two massive drops were Venu and Sab... because the base forms weren't being used before anyway, we just had them appearing in the usage stats as if they did. If your point is that Venu Stalls are getting less common: 1, why is that a bad thing and 2, that graph shows that it's quite cyclical. Venu and Sab's usage will both rise and fall depending on meta trends. And as for passive-ass do nothing mons rising in popularity, I dont consider that a good thing. First of all, those mons can literally be dealt with by Xatu, because passive mons cant do jack nor shit to any magic bouncer aside from Diancie, just ask FlamingVictini, and secondly passive mons being punished is something I see as being good for the meta, you have to put more effort into games in order to win them.

So you missed the point of that graph. It's actually the less conclusive of the two I posted but was the one quoted. What I was looking at were the variations between Sableye and other somewhat common 'non-sable' stall mons. The issue with that was I was limited to six choices and a lot of our common stall mons were sable-stall users (aka found on the other graph). The keys to notice reading it was that in July 2015-October 2015, Venusaur and Slowbro moved near identically opposite to Sableye. Then from early 2016 to the end of the graph, all three other mons picked up usage as Sable fell and then dropped completely as Sableye spiked in usage. The variations were often 3-5% in 1825, which should be more than enough to prove that these were meta adjustments. And Sable's movements were almost always first. The second post in that thread also explained that there were very few mons unaffected by other styles (mainly offense) to give me a good sense of what they were doing with stall or at least balance. Other mons like Doublade/Cresselia could see so little usage that variation is rough to measure.

I mean, this was the main point of the post:

Find When ABR's team came out

Of course, the main tell I pointed here is the difference between Chansey and Sableye would be right around the non-sable stall marks. Alomomola and Clefable really represent the only other two 'clerics' that stall uses and Alomomola's usage was under 1%. Also you could tell that outside of Skarmory, most of these mons were probably very rarely anywhere but on Sable teams with how perfectly correlated they were to his usage.

Also Aberforth I find it funny you complain about passive mons rising in popularity when Sableye himself is quite passive. Stall isn't going to find a group of mons that suddenly have massive bulk, great recovery, some utility and isn't passive. You're asking for something broken to the point of not existing in OU. Stall mons are always passive to an extent. The standard fair mons of a sable team, Amoongus/Quag/Skarm/Chans are ALL passive. Honestly, I don't know what you're asking for. I can (and still occasionally) use tanks on stall teams but it doesn't make as much sense in the long run.

 

[Joycap]

JoycapJoshST


All Sable-Stall teams still carry their own stealth rockers. As for "Sable only having synergy on stall"... it's not really an issue or true (one of the no-ban people in this thread had been talking about using Sable on balance). Even in this case where Sable is found on stall more often than not, it really doesn't matter. Most stall mons are found on teams that have lots of innate bulk. Only a few mons like Heatran can really and truly be anywhere from stall to hyper offense.

It makes me think... we've touched on Hoopa-U a bit, and how it got banned for borderline invalidating stall (as well as other things). Then again - has anyone here asked themselves weather Hoopa-U had any place on stall itself?

Also - may I ask why you think it's irrelevant I mention Mega Sableye possibly only having synergy on Stall (plus that one guy occasionally getting it to work on balance)?

 

[Aberforth]

So you missed the point of that graph. It's actually the less conclusive of the two I posted but was the one quoted. What I was looking at were the variations between Sableye and other somewhat common 'non-sable' stall mons. The issue with that was I was limited to six choices and a lot of our common stall mons were sable-stall users (aka found on the other graph). The keys to notice reading it was that in July 2015-October 2015, Venusaur and Slowbro moved near identically opposite to Sableye. Then from early 2016 to the end of the graph, all three other mons picked up usage as Sable fell and then dropped completely as Sableye spiked in usage. The variations were often 3-5% in 1825, which should be more than enough to prove that these were meta adjustments. And Sable's movements were almost always first. The second post in that thread also explained that there were very few mons unaffected by other styles (mainly offense) to give me a good sense of what they were doing with stall or at least balance. Other mons like Doublade/Cresselia could see so little usage that variation is rough to measure.

I mean, this was the main point of the post:

Find When ABR's team came out

Of course, the main tell I pointed here is the difference between Chansey and Sableye would be right around the non-sable stall marks. Alomomola and Clefable really represent the only other two 'clerics' that stall uses and Alomomola's usage was under 1%. Also you could tell that outside of Skarmory, most of these mons were probably very rarely anywhere but on Sable teams with how perfectly correlated they were to his usage.

Also Aberforth I find it funny you complain about passive mons rising in popularity when Sableye himself is quite passive. Stall isn't going to find a group of mons that suddenly have massive bulk, great recovery, some utility and isn't passive. You're asking for something broken to the point of not existing in OU. Stall mons are always passive to an extent. The standard fair mons of a sable team, Amoongus/Quag/Skarm/Chans are ALL passive. Honestly, I don't know what you're asking for. I can (and still occasionally) use tanks on stall teams but it doesn't make as much sense in the long run.

A team that has tour success is developed and then the team becomes popular. Seems pretty normal. For comparison I did the birdspam team, where most of the mons seem to be heavily correlated with each other.

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It doesn't actually mean anything though. You've just shown when a good team became very popular, those mons rise in usage, and thus tried to say that that means all other stalls are being crippled by this, however you can see what's happening with the birdspam team in that after the crest of usage, they drop. It might take longer for the stall team than the birdspam team, however this doesn't mean all other stalls are being crippled, it just means everyone has a go-to team to use for stall on the ladder. After all, why reinvent the wheel when ABR made a team you can use already. If ORAS were to continue into the next few months, we'd see a downturn in the stall teams of today as a newer anti-meta stall team is made and that one has more usage before the cycle repeats. These are natural metagame shifts and trying to pin them as a reason to ban Sableye just seems weird to me.

And as for stall mons being passive... uh yeah, that's what stall mons do. I wasn't actually talking about stall mons with that part, I was talking about stuff like HelmetChomp, Ferrothorn, Hippowdown, Defensive Lando-T and other mons that are very passive, but are used on Balance or Offense. Now it's fine to use those mons, but if you do you know full well that Sableye stalls will not let you set rocks on them, and thus you must prepare with the rest of your team in order to beat them. In the stall v stall matchup, either the stall has a win condition (talon/slowbro), or it'll come down to who played better with their banded Weavile, or it'll come down to who played better with their Dugtrio. Aka the non-passive mons are the ones who will win the game baring massive luck circumstances.

 

[Prinz]

ladd seems broken btw (i tried to ladder but i was paired against people with joke teams more often than not even after 30+ games, you know those teams with lots of uu/ru/even nu mons.. so my coil didnt rly rise much after wins), or people arent laddering yet ;_;

 

[bludz]

It makes me think... we've touched on Hoopa-U a bit, and how it got banned for borderline invalidating stall (as well as other things). Then again - has anyone here asked themselves weather Hoopa-U had any place on stall itself?

Also - may I ask why you think it's irrelevant I mention Mega Sableye possibly only having synergy on Stall (plus that one guy occasionally getting it to work on balance)?

Hoopa-U never invalidated stall. This is a misconception. Hoopa was far too susceptible to trapping, so it really got one kill at most in most games against stall which tends to carry a trapper. Its true strength was just having no reliable switch-ins meaning it could get a kill in basically any match (and multiple kills in the right matchups) with only the most basic support. edit: I don't think it had any place on stall given its pretty obvious best role. I'm not sure what good it does to ask us this question during this suspect test anyway

Mega Sab only really being good on stall isn't irrelevant, but it is sort of just a given at this point. Sableye balances have never been successful, so almost every post in this thread is already going to be assuming Sableye is on stall.

 

[Lacuna]

In all honesty, as stated by many before, we only have about a solid two weeks left of ORAS OU. Because of this, banning Sableye would be somewhat unreasonable to begin with.

Though, this obviously isn't what will be the deciding factor.
It's true that Sableye is somewhat of a bother to face, as we mainly see him on stall teams. Keeping this in mind, many of us desire for him to be annihilated from OU entirely, never to be spoken of again.
This is the wrong answer for the sole reason that Sableye IS NOT nearly as invincible of a pokemon as he is described to be. Sure, he can bounce back hazards, as well as take a number of hits, as well as cripple your entire team. Though, it isn't like you have to move an entire mountain to beat him.
I could show you all the things that beat him, though I feel like that would be pointless, as his counters are quite obvious. In all honesty, I wouldn't consider Sableye at all a common pokemon to see while laddering, or even playing in a tournament.
This is for a reason. As he isn't a MUST HAVE on teams.
And to end this, we all must take into account that stall is a play-style as well. Let us show them sympathy. c;
For these reasons I vote no ban on Mega-Sableye.
Showdown: Fairy Resist