np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 7 - Diamonds [Read post #226] [BANNED]

Status
Not open for further replies.

Myzozoa

to find better ways to say what nobody says
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
I will be voting to ban sablenite, in the absence of being offered an opportunity to ban magic bounce or sablenite and diancite in the same run.

In the first place here is the main team i used for qualifying:

ferrothorn, bisharp, hippo, spd wisp talon, diancie, starmie

as you can see this IS a stall team.

if the pro-ban side, or really any side, is going to get anywhere it needs to move away from centering binaries like the stall-offense binary. Mega pokemon and several other factors, particularly team preview, have been the end of any meaningful understanding of the metagame that arises from talking generally about 'stall' or 'offense'. these are like the two least rigorously definable terms ever. it should just be a rule that these terms cant be used to make srs arguments, since they are so dumb and perpetuate the myths that keep the children-players on this forum as scrubs that will never be good at pkmn. do you also think you need a mixed wall, a physical wall, and a physical sweeper, a special sweeper, and a mixed sweeper, then youre sure to have a good team right? ban chansey, it doesnt lose to any mixed sweepers!!! sorry these arguments about the viability of stall depending on a certain pokemon are even dumber than debates about the viability rankings.


Magic Bounce is something we should be talking about, but there is probably a faction with better than average standing that is motivated to situate suspect tests in a certain way, maybe not intentionally, but obstructively. We are testing sablenite and not all magic bounce because there are high standing people in this community that dont want to see sableye go and so theyre putting us through this really stupid suspect test that should be about magic bounce. They are fooled by/fooling with the notion that m-sableye makes stall viable, when sableye is a pokemon that destroys 'stall' in literally dozens of ways, stopping them from laying hazards, spinning, using status, phazing, etc. That is fucking delusional, im sorry. Im not gonna tag you but when you talk about how sableye makes stall viable i am just like, you are so out of it, it beats every pokemon on stall 1v1 with most of it's sets and def with a cm set it 6-0s. wtf. wtf. wtf. if the counter argument to this rant amounts to 'clefable' str8 miss me with that, broken things countering broken things is how we got into this meta in the first place.

Anyway we should try to ban diancie and sableye (and espeon/mabsol too i guess if we want to do it the fast way) and then manaphy and clefable, then mmedicham, mlopunny. the meta should then stabilize with few additional bans needed.


we are playing a game of skill not a game of rock paper scissors in predicting team matchups or even moves in a battle (the 50-50). sableye is both horrible for the meta on t0, and creates gross 50-50s right and left in battle, ala magic bounce.

stall has been viable since day 1 of xy/oras. and will continue to be viable. ban ban ban.

sure the meta without sab is horrible, so is the meta with sab. embrace change, u can ban ur way to a good meta, almost all the good metas got that way from being to willing to ban for the sake of the meta.


and learn a lesson from bw: if we dont do the bans now, bkc or ojama or someone will just introduce all the bans we would be doing rn at a world cup a few years down the line. and then the meta wont be fresh anymore and it will be a major chore, so, my advice is to get it over with now. if we get it wrong, theyll undo the bans in similar fashion.

tl-dr- sableye fucks stall so hard that the posters who are only familiar with oras dont even know what stall is, and think sableye makes stall viable. the only way it could make stall viable is by being so restrictive that stall teams can be built to manage all the other common pokemon besides m sableye, which would probs still shit on it.
 
stall has been viable since day 1 of xy/oras. and will continue to be viable. ban ban ban.
Lol
Considering all the mons you said needed suspects, it's not surprising.

tl-dr- sableye fucks stall so hard that the posters who are only familiar with oras dont even know what stall is, and think sableye makes stall viable. the only way it could make stall viable is by being so restrictive that stall teams can be built to manage all the other common pokemon besides m sableye, which would probs still shit on it.
Anyway, I just want to say, I don't believe anyone is saying Sableye is what made Stall "viable". People are saying it was the perfect member for it and just made it better. Stall was already viable, that is made very apparent in every meta we ever have.
 
Since I got my reqs with my alt "OVO is yummy" (http://prnt.sc/d6nrmh)
I am voting against a ban of Mega- Sableye because imo Mega Sableye is not the problem- duggi is.
It traps every non levitating mon and is just so annoying to deal with, while Mega- Sabe just bounces hazards.
The deal with it is tho that Magic Bounce stall wont stop existing, as there are mons like Espeon or Xatu doing the same.

*If anyone doubts still that I got reqs, Ill have another photo in the back :]]]]
 
Last edited:
Since I got my reqs with my alt "OVO is yummy" (http://prnt.sc/d6nrmh)
I am voting against a ban of Mega- Sableye because imo Mega Sableye is not the problem- duggi is.
It traps every non levitating mon and is just so annoying to deal with, while Mega- Sabe just bounces hazards.
The deal with it is tho that Magic Bounce stall wont stop existing, as there are mons like Espeon or Xatu doing the same.

*If anyone doubts stil that I got reqs, Ill have another Photo in the back :]]]]
Here is a gen 3 replay showing dugtrio on stall: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-149809
As you can see, Ojama is running an offensive team, while Tesung is running 4 stall mons + gengar as spinblocker + dugtrio. Anyway, Ojama's Heracross gets trapped, but he still is able to win the match through continued offensive pressure. In this match, Dugtrio looks pretty balanced, because whether Ojama wins or not doesn't depend solely on how well he uses the Heracross. After Hera dies, he is able to keep up the offensive pressure, but this offensive pressure in gen 3 takes a different form than in ORAS. In the case of ORAS, continued offensive pressure without a designated breaker will usually consist of stealth rock, u turns, and volt switches. It's due to how Sableye mitigates this general offensive pressure by winning the hazard game that lets the stall team have such an easy time after the biggest breaker on your team goes down.

Personally I don't believe Dugtrio is a problem, it's been used by stall since gen 3, and has never been a problem until Sableye has the degenerate effect of making you overly dependent on one mon to win, even if you even have that specific breaker in the first place.

However, even if you're not convinced by my argument for Dugtrio being fine, consider the following argument for a ban
: Even if Dugtrio is broken, Sab + Dugtrio is a bigger problem to the metagame than just Dugtrio by itself. Together they form a very restrictive duo. Don't worry about Xatu + Espeon, they are trash in comparison to Sableye, and teams that use one of those two over it have proven to be very unreliable. The option to ban Dugtrio is currently not on the table by the council, as this is almost certainly the last suspect of the generation. You're then faced between mitigating a problem, or leaving it untouched entirely.

If your view about Dugtrio holds fast, then we are not able to fix the whole problem before the gen is over. But to vote no ban on Sableye would leave the problem completely untouched. Even if I did believe Dugtrio was a problem, when looking at what to vote in this suspect test, it would seem more prudent to me to at least decrease the effectiveness of these teams, and hope you'll take the same viewpoint.
 
Here is a gen 3 replay showing dugtrio on stall: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen3ou-149809
As you can see, Ojama is running an offensive team, while Tesung is running 4 stall mons + gengar as spinblocker + dugtrio. Anyway, Ojama's Heracross gets trapped, but he still is able to win the match through continued offensive pressure. In this match, Dugtrio looks pretty balanced, because whether Ojama wins or not doesn't depend solely on how well he uses the Heracross. After Hera dies, he is able to keep up the offensive pressure, but this offensive pressure in gen 3 takes a different form than in ORAS. In the case of ORAS, continued offensive pressure without a designated breaker will usually consist of stealth rock, u turns, and volt switches. It's due to how Sableye mitigates this general offensive pressure by winning the hazard game that lets the stall team have such an easy time after the biggest breaker on your team goes down.

Personally I don't believe Dugtrio is a problem, it's been used by stall since gen 3, and has never been a problem until Sableye has the degenerate effect of making you overly dependent on one mon to win, even if you even have that specific breaker in the first place.
However, even if you're not convinced by my argument for Dugtrio being fine, consider the following argument for a ban: Even if Dugtrio is broken, Sab + Dugtrio is a bigger problem to the metagame than just Dugtrio by itself. Together they form a very restrictive duo. Don't worry about Xatu + Espeon, they are trash in comparison to Sableye, and teams that use one of those two over it have proven to be very unreliable. The option to ban Dugtrio is currently not on the table by the council, as this is almost certainly the last suspect of the generation. You're then faced between mitigating a problem, or leaving it untouched entirely.

If your view about Dugtrio holds fast, then we are not able to fix the whole problem before the gen is over. But to vote no ban on Sableye would leave the problem completely untouched. Even if I did believe Dugtrio was a problem, when looking at what to vote in this suspect test, it would seem more prudent to me to at least decrease the effectiveness of these teams, and hope you'll take the same viewpoint.
Stealth Rock is a Gen 4 move, but even allowing for that mistake and knowing you actually meant Spikes, Ojama never actually got any up. He beat the team because he was able to overwhelm Skarmory by Selfdestructing on it, and also managed to get a double EQ crit and a toxic dodge and lots of other bs. His team was absolutely prepared for stall, with lots of things that aim to overwhelm Skarmory. It's a well built one. He didn't need to chip anything down with hazards.

Sableye does not make you dependent on any particular breaker for stall. In fact, this very notion makes me wonder if you have even played against stall at a not completely basic level. I'll grant that you need something for stall, something that's not "spike stacking and hope to wear it down with doubles", but if you are unprepared for Mega Sableye when building a spikestacking team...anyway. Read Finchinator's post.

I'm sick of people saying that Dugtrio is not broken because of replays like these, especially when you are giving replays of people beating Dugtrio stall with well built teams that have a good and obvious win condition in luring and breaking Skarmory. Do that in ORAS and you'll win against stall as well. Please do try it some day.

However, even if you're not convinced by my argument for Dugtrio being fine, consider the following argument for a ban
: Even if Dugtrio is broken, Sab + Dugtrio is a bigger problem to the metagame than just Dugtrio by itself. Together they form a very restrictive duo. Don't worry about Xatu + Espeon, they are trash in comparison to Sableye, and teams that use one of those two over it have proven to be very unreliable. The option to ban Dugtrio is currently not on the table by the council, as this is almost certainly the last suspect of the generation. You're then faced between mitigating a problem, or leaving it untouched entirely.
Yeah no. If B is broken, and A+B is worse, we don't ban A, because that leaves the broken element intact. This is just completely backward. This is just wrong on so many levels. I'd sooner wait for the next suspect test in a new generation than vote to ban something that is fundamentally fine, trying a makeshift band-aid that doesn't solve the inherent issue here.
 
Last edited:
We saw this before with the shadow tag + sablenite suspect test. Banning the trapping element of the sableye + trapper duo does not fix the issue unless you are truly willing to ban every trapper despite them having other competitive uses. Non-sableye stalls have never been problematic. If we can admit there is a problem here, then the simplest and cleanest solution, to me, seems clearly to ban sablenite and minimize collateral damage.
 
Maybe the reason he didn't need Heracross alive is because everything on that team breaks through Skarm/Pert and/or other standard walls in ADV really easily thanks to Metagross/TTar/Aero all having really similarish checks there. I won't argue for whether Dugtrio is balanced or not, but if you've played it all you'll know that it influences a good deal of EV spreads/set choices/pokemon choices in a team. You've given an example of a team that isn't exactly reliant on hazards per se to push through the for/gar/tar variant being played. It's worth noting though that Heracross has an incredible matchup versus those teams, if Dugtrio is not there and can potentially 6-0 other variants of the same w/o Dug thanks to SD Lum HP:Ghost being a bit of a thing, most everything being setup fodder, and Skarm frequently if not always dropping Drill Peck in this era. You're trying to argue for Mega Sableye being broken and controlling the hazard game, by extension you're trying to say that hazards+breakers+volt turn is the only way to push through stall in ORAS. But you just showed a replay where somebody brought heavy physical offense vs a team that looks a bit prone to being overloaded by the same, which doesn't really support your point. Also Mega Sableye blocks hazards yes,but honestly its not as bulky as you'd like to make it out to be. And there are a ton of hazard setters which can put pressure on Sableye, but is not this omnipotent wall you're making it out to be. How does Sableye even restrict the use of any breakers when, it can't even switch into any of them properly? Stuff that tosses stall like Mega Cross will continue to toss it regardless of being there. Being able to pressure Sableye while building a hazard stack oriented team should be one of the first orders of business, which...is kind of like how you play vs any other playstyle where one particular threat/wall is in the way of your win conditions.

All that replay showed was that having a team that can create a hole, and then force its offense through said hole, was, is and will continue to be solid regardless of whatever other trends are in place, pert being the link that is most prone to being pressured by all of gross/tar/aero. Also honestly if that replay was meant to show Dugtrio being balanced, it didn't really show it. Ideally Dugtrio has a few spikes on the other side, specifically so that stuff like TTar/Gross is in range, maybe it'd have seemed more unbalanced to you when 88% ttar(especially considering the super important toxic on the swampert)/metagross which certainly are vital to the team being taken away; he never really got to get off the back foot, after pert got toxiced/bliss got crit/having a bad mu to some extent from the very start). this is also not mentioning the obvious pressure that Dugtrio puts you under in ADV(especially if its adamant) which forces you to play Metagross/TTar/Heracross with the knowledge that if you're chipped slightly you're basically limited to one kill. It also puts a lot of pressure on you at teambuilder and/or midgame in a lot of cases, where a dugtrio coming in on a predicted Softboiled or recover basically puts you down a pokemon. also maybe the game would have played out a little differently if curse+boom(yes this set is common to an extent and is good, being able to trade with skarmory is very nice) had been scouted for and/or the toxic on Snorlax not been gone for(especially considering that Immunity is by far the superior choice on Snorlax).
 
Last edited:
In the case of ORAS, continued offensive pressure without a designated breaker will usually consist of stealth rock, u turns, and volt switches.
Stealth Rock is a Gen 4 move, but even allowing for that mistake and knowing you actually meant Spikes, Ojama never actually got any up. He beat the team because he was able to overwhelm Skarmory by Selfdestructing on it, and also managed to get a double EQ crit and a toxic dodge and lots of other bs. His team was absolutely prepared for stall, with lots of things that aim to overwhelm Skarmory. It's a well built one. He didn't need to chip anything down with hazards.
You might notice I'm not talking about gen3 in the quoted section. General pressure takes a different form in ORAS, self destruct is not a very good move in gen 6 outside of some niche uses, and so Sr + voltturn becomes a generic way of offence applying pressure. Taunt + status is a generic way for balanced teams to apply pressure but I guess Sab stops those too.

Next is just a bolded assertion, and then you essentially calling me a scrub who hasn't played against stall. I've actually played with and against Sab stall on the ORAS ladder a lot, where it has caused the most problems, but in any case calling pro-banners scrubs who haven't faced Sab stall doesn't make any kind of argument or say anything logical, so I won't dwell on it.

I'm sick of people saying that Dugtrio is not broken because of replays like these, especially when you are giving replays of people beating Dugtrio stall with well built teams that have a good and obvious win condition in luring and breaking Skarmory. Do that in ORAS and you'll win against stall as well. Please do try it some day.
Ok so you admit that Dugtrio stall can be broken by generally good teams, and then say that this can be done in the same way in ORAS as well. From what I'd deduce from this, you're basically saying that Dugtrio doesn't make the metagame unhealthy.

Yeah no. If B is broken, and A+B is worse, we don't ban A, because that leaves the broken element intact. This is just completely backward. This is just wrong on so many levels. I'd sooner wait for the next suspect test in a new generation than vote to ban something that is fundamentally fine than try a makeshift band-aid that doesn't solve the inherent issue here.
But you then assert that Dugtrio is actually broken, and that Sab is fine. What I'm actually saying is that if both A and B are a problem, then it's better to ban one than neither.

You didn't really back up your assertion that Dugtrio is the broken part of the core with any kind of evidence at all. In fact you showed that it might actually not be broken at all. I don't know how you've reached the conclusion that banning Sableye won't at least address part of the problem.

Maybe the reason he didn't need Heracross alive is because everything on that team breaks through Skarm/Pert and/or other standard walls in ADV really easily thanks to Metagross/TTar/Aero all having really similarish checks there. I won't argue for whether Dugtrio is balanced or not, but if you've played it all you'll know that it influences a good deal of EV spreads/set choices/pokemon choices in a team. You've given an example of a team that isn't exactly reliant on hazards per se to push through the for/gar/tar variant being played. It's worth noting though that Heracross has an incredible matchup versus those teams, if Dugtrio is not there and can potentially 6-0 other variants of the same w/o Dug thanks to SD Lum HP:Ghost being a bit of a thing, most everything being setup fodder, and Skarm frequently if not always dropping Drill Peck in this era. You're trying to argue for Mega Sableye being broken and controlling the hazard game, by extension you're trying to say that hazards+breakers+volt turn is the only way to push through stall in ORAS. But you just showed a replay where somebody brought heavy physical offense vs a team that looks a bit prone to being overloaded by the same, which doesn't really support your point. Also Mega Sableye blocks hazards yes,but honestly its not as bulky as you'd like to make it out to be. And there are a ton of hazard setters which can put pressure on Sableye, but is not this omnipotent wall you're making it out to be. How does Sableye even restrict the use of any breakers when, it can't even switch into any of them properly? Stuff that tosses stall like Mega Cross will continue to toss it regardless of being there. Being able to pressure Sableye while building a hazard stack oriented team should be one of the first orders of business, which...is kind of like how you play vs any other playstyle where one particular threat/wall is in the way of your win conditions.

All that replay showed was that having a team that can create a hole, and then force its offense through said hole, was, is and will continue to be solid regardless of whatever other trends are in place, pert being the link that is most prone to being pressured by all of gross/tar/aero. Also honestly if that replay was meant to show Dugtrio being balanced, it didn't really show it. Ideally Dugtrio has a few spikes on the other side, specifically so that stuff like TTar/Gross is in range, maybe it'd have seemed more unbalanced to you when 88% ttar(especially considering the super important toxic on the swampert)/metagross which certainly are vital to the team being taken away; he never really got to get off the back foot, after pert got toxiced/bliss got crit/having a bad mu to some extent from the very start). this is also not mentioning the obvious pressure that Dugtrio puts you under in ADV(especially if its adamant) which forces you to play Metagross/TTar/Heracross with the knowledge that if you're chipped slightly you're basically limited to one kill. It also puts a lot of pressure on you at teambuilder and/or midgame in a lot of cases, where a dugtrio coming in on a predicted Softboiled or recover basically puts you down a pokemon. also maybe the game would have played out a little differently if curse+boom(yes this set is common to an extent and is good, being able to trade with skarmory is very nice) had been scouted for and/or the toxic on Snorlax not been gone for(especially considering that Immunity is by far the superior choice on Snorlax).
Well yeah this is an example of a metagame in which stall is balanced, and simultaneously Dugtrio is also present. That is the main point I was trying to make when linking this replay. Again, the idea of general offensive pressure is totally different in ORAS and ADV. Overloading walls like this doesn't work too well when they have access to roost or recover, this method would never work in ORAS. General offensive pressure in ADV is what you saw there. General offensive pressure in ORAS is typically voltturn + SR. Another way it can be done is taunt + status + hazards, but Sab shuts down those too. This isn't necessarily about making hazard stack better, it's more about eliminating matchup losses, and to make stallbreaking skill based, blanket checks, and general ways of applying pressure are very important. There's some rational points in this post, but I never claimed Sableye was an immovable wall, or has a crazy amount of bulk.

My main criticism of your post is that you seem to have overdrawn conclusions from the replay. This wasn't supposed to be some shining example of a perfect stall game, this was literally just the first replay I could find from good old gen players with dug stall in it. It doesn't matter exactly how the defensive checks got overwhelmed, and it doesn't matter if every turn was played totally optimally. All that matters is that you can clearly see an interactive process when stallbreaking. Point taken, maybe the match could have gone differently if he scouted for curseboom lax. That's exactly what I'm aiming for! You can see the thought process in every turn, and it's very clear that Dugtrio isn't preventing this, at all. However, with Sableye, you can clearly see a marked difference, in that doubles don't matter, throwing out status is bad, taunt doesn't work. You simply either have the breaker they're weak to, or you don't. Just to look at what you said about Mega Heracross, Rock Blast 2HKOs bold unaware clef, which is used on the SabDug stall after rocks. It will not if rocks are not up. This is just an example of how important rocks are in a match, and how Sableye necessitates you to have a breaker they're very weak to in order to win. Your criticisms of the plays made and how they affect the ADV match seem to prove my point further, that Dugtrio does not negate smart play by any means.

Now, to link this back into how it all relates to Sableye, I'll speak from a post susp ladder perspective. Breaking stall has once again become way more interactive, precisely because both players have to work towards winning the hazard game, rather than one lazily claiming dominance over what has always been a skill based process. Due to defensive threats having very reliable recovery now, overwhelming them with stuff that has the same checks and counters won't really work. However, as getting rocks is now a possibility, doubles work, 2hkos are more easily achieved, and crucially, obvious switches can be punished at least slightly with doubles. We're starting to see a degree of interactiveness come back with Sab gone. This is not even beginning to mention how Sableye pretty much choked out taunt+wisp breakers like mew, which are beginning to be used again, and Sab doesn't dominate bulky ditto matches anymore.

There are way less matchup based losses in regards to playing vs bulky teams. People have more freedom when it comes to building bulkier teams themselves, because they aren't worried about opposing Sab laughing at all their conventional ways of dealing passive damage. The vs bulky team matchup is significantly more skill based than it ever was, and so personally I see the suspect ladder as a huge success in proving that Sab is a problem, and that it does take skill out of the game.
 
Dugtrio pretty much replaced shadow tag. Arena Trap is only worse because it can't trap flying types. Setting up stealth rocks remedies that problem, most flying types will stay away...

I leaning towards no ban because breaking dug sableye stall is not impossible. Any good special attacker can beat dug sableye combo. Ex: StallBreak Mega Pidgeot

Pidgeot @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Tangled Feet
EVs: 224 HP / 32 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Roost
- Refresh
- Work Up

+6 32 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 321-378 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If it can 2HKO chansey at +6, Sableye falls pretty easily. Combined with confusion, Kinda hard to adjust to...

At this point, people are probably gonna say, "How the hell are you gonna get to +6?" Stall is weak, cause it can't stop something that can remedy it's status, and have instant recovery with a boosting move without a phazer.

+4 32 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 314-369 (94 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Most Skarm Variants are physically defensive on stall because chansey is always sp Defensive...

And finally...

32 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It'll take a few turns for confusion to kick in.

After that quagsire has a 50% chance of hitting itself.

I know, all this must sound fake, but we've all had to experience HAX one time or another, am i right?

Hurricane confuses as much as scald burns. If the opponent keeps hitting himself. then it's likely that stall breaks right then and there. It requires good prediction, but I think that is what makes a good player. Any 2-bit loser on the internet (maybe I'm one) can copy a strategy that smart players use and become good. But truly good players can take a hopeless situation and flip it on its head skillfully, and win.

TL;DR Sableye shouldn't be banned. It requires good prediction and skillfull stallbreak to beat. It makes the metagame healthy because it requires people to adapt to stall.

Don't Ban
 

Aberforth

Californium is PoMMan now.
is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I'm Rick Astley You're still acting like there is 0 possibility of getting up rocks vs Sableye stall. Yes, you probably aren't keeping them up for the full game if you do set them up, however that doesn't mean there aren't ways to set them and then use the turns you do have rocks up to apply good offensive pressure.

And why you're still pretending it is simply a matter of having one specific thing per stall team is something I will not understand. There are a fair number of pokemon that DO do well vs all stall teams at the moment, and are far from a waste of a slot given that they are normally also useful in Balance matchups as well. I know you have an utterly irrational hatred of Sableye (cough Hoopa) but it does not actually fix any and all issues that stall has as a playstyle (referring to passiveness and an inability to win of its own accord), it simply alters the way one must approach facing stall teams. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING IN AND OF ITSELF. The fact that stallbreaking is now considered more actively done is not a reason to change things simply because you are uncomfortable with them, it merely changes the dynamic of stallbreaking from hazards to power.

What makes this far worse is that you simply refuse to use those methods. In Live Chat you admitted this much while you bemoaned Zard-Y teams and the like as being 'too focused' on Sab Stall when they have existed throughout both ORAS and XY, without seemingly admitting that this was an example of the metagame shifting with the times to deal with the new dynamic of stall, in a completely healthy way.
 
I'm Rick Astley You're still acting like there is 0 possibility of getting up rocks vs Sableye stall. Yes, you probably aren't keeping them up for the full game if you do set them up, however that doesn't mean there aren't ways to set them and then use the turns you do have rocks up to apply good offensive pressure.

And why you're still pretending it is simply a matter of having one specific thing per stall team is something I will not understand. There are a fair number of pokemon that DO do well vs all stall teams at the moment, and are far from a waste of a slot given that they are normally also useful in Balance matchups as well. I know you have an utterly irrational hatred of Sableye (cough Hoopa) but it does not actually fix any and all issues that stall has as a playstyle (referring to passiveness and an inability to win of its own accord), it simply alters the way one must approach facing stall teams. THIS IS NOT A BAD THING IN AND OF ITSELF. The fact that stallbreaking is now considered more actively done is not a reason to change things simply because you are uncomfortable with them, it merely changes the dynamic of stallbreaking from hazards to power.

What makes this far worse is that you simply refuse to use those methods. In Live Chat you admitted this much while you bemoaned Zard-Y teams and the like as being 'too focused' on Sab Stall when they have existed throughout both ORAS and XY, without seemingly admitting that this was an example of the metagame shifting with the times to deal with the new dynamic of stall, in a completely healthy way.
As Sableye teams have become increasingly better, it really has become an impossibility to keep rocks up on them for any lengthy period of time. This is mostly because of the extent to which Sableye discourages even thinking about hitting rocks, and the scope of rockers/spikers it can shut down. What Sableye can't shut down, the team members can. Crucially, double defog lacks the turn efficiency that Sableye does, and doesn't discourage using the move in the first place. Therefore Sableye is the keystone for keeping the field hazard-free. Very often, when a Sab team does let rocks go up, it is because of a choke of some sort. I only faced a few stall teams on the susp ladder, but when I did manage to utilise hazards, I can say that it wasn't because of a blatant misplay on the opponent's part.

The issue isn't just a shift from hazards to power. The issue is a shift from hazards (which enable double switches etc, won't go into big detail as to why they're important here), Taunt, and a lot of forms of passive damage to power. Not every teamstyle will have access to these huge breakers, and it's why you'll see Sab just choking out other bulky builds that don't carry it, because it shuts down what chip damage they can do. Not only this, but by requiring ONLY power to win, you require something that can absolutely smash apart the stall team in question. This by definition makes stallbreaking a much more matchup based process than it was before. I don't refuse to use these methods (in fact I ran about 4 breakers on 1 team for the HoopaU suspect ladder), but on the other hand that doesn't mean it is healthy to be forced to run something incredibly specific to be able to beat these teams either.

It's possible I didn't phrase what I was saying about Zard y teams too well. I'll explain what I meant again. You specifically brought up Band TTar + Char Y as a core to break stall effectively. I openly admitted that it did, but you have to realise that this is using your mega slot, 1/3 of your team, and forces you into a very rigid style of building. I'm not criticising the core, but this is just the nature of CharY BandTTar teams. In this way, you're not just putting those 2 on a team, you are using them as the team's foundation. It's less of a core, and more of a whole team archetype. My contension isn't that this core has specifically come up to deal with only Sableye thus Sableye is broken, but instead that it shows something to be unhealthy if your advice for dealing with a pokemon is to build a team from the ground up in a certain manner.
 
Dugtrio pretty much replaced shadow tag. Arena Trap is only worse because it can't trap flying types. Setting up stealth rocks remedies that problem, most flying types will stay away...

I leaning towards no ban because breaking dug sableye stall is not impossible. Any good special attacker can beat dug sableye combo. Ex: StallBreak Mega Pidgeot

Pidgeot @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Tangled Feet
EVs: 224 HP / 32 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Roost
- Refresh
- Work Up

+6 32 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 321-378 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

If it can 2HKO chansey at +6, Sableye falls pretty easily. Combined with confusion, Kinda hard to adjust to...

At this point, people are probably gonna say, "How the hell are you gonna get to +6?" Stall is weak, cause it can't stop something that can remedy it's status, and have instant recovery with a boosting move without a phazer.

+4 32 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 314-369 (94 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Most Skarm Variants are physically defensive on stall because chansey is always sp Defensive...

And finally...

32 SpA Mega Pidgeot Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 222-262 (56.3 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It'll take a few turns for confusion to kick in.

After that quagsire has a 50% chance of hitting itself.

I know, all this must sound fake, but we've all had to experience HAX one time or another, am i right?

Hurricane confuses as much as scald burns. If the opponent keeps hitting himself. then it's likely that stall breaks right then and there. It requires good prediction, but I think that is what makes a good player. Any 2-bit loser on the internet (maybe I'm one) can copy a strategy that smart players use and become good. But truly good players can take a hopeless situation and flip it on its head skillfully, and win.

TL;DR Sableye shouldn't be banned. It requires good prediction and skillfull stallbreak to beat. It makes the metagame healthy because it requires people to adapt to stall.

Don't Ban
Ignoring the stupidity of saying no ban because of one Pokemon: Congratulations, you beat Wonder Trio. You also lose to almost every other team because you chose Mega Pidgeot.
 

Tio Chico

Ednaldo Pereira
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Mega Sableye is no more restrictive than Bisharp, who forces the use of Keldeo in all no-stall team, and Excadrill Sand Rush and Mega Char X, which force Landorus-Therian, Landorus-T that is present in more than 1/3 Of the teams, and analyzing the statistics, in +/- 42% of the suspect ladder teams.
Mega Sableye limits hazard setters, but is this really bad? I'm not forgetting the existence of Defog and Rapid Spin, but Mega Sableye is the only solid counter of Stealth Rock in the tier, and if Stealth Rock can not have counter, then ...

The root of the problem is in the limitation of builds to break stall;
You need to run multiple stallbreakers (or dependent on Mega Heracross) to be able to break this playstyle, and limit yourself against others playstyles. But where does Mega Sableye come in?
Dugtrio, now an OU mon, removes several stallbreakers in 2KO or KO, without counterplay.
Not just stallbreaker, but Dugtrio breaks cores, removes offensive and defensive threats, being unhealthy for any playstyle.
Comparing the use of the regular ladder with the ladder suspect, we can see that Dugtrio has a greater use in the ladder suspect, proving that he is not dependent on Mega Sableye to exert his only viable niche, trap.
If Dugtrio has not been a problem in previous generations this does not affect ORAS OU.
There have never been so many mon for Dugtrio to remove and break teams.
A more stable metagame with more common threats, Dugtrio has become a problem, because the chances of him removing a common and important Pokémon in the current metagame are great. (In the same way that Pursuit has always been a problem against every check / counter of Charizard Y, just as Pursuit will be a problem for every Mega Medicham switch if Mega Sableye is banned.)
Why allow Pokémon to be removed by trappers when it slows down the competition? Mega Sableye can not be considered broken because its check / counters are removed by trappers.

Stall should not have auto-wincon to be defeated, players need to work with skill to break the opposing team.
Just leave the stallbreakers free to work and press stall, without traps, so stall will no longer be a problem.

Players claim that without Mega Sableye the tier will be more varied, but the only thing we can see, are varied Pokémon using the same 3 things; Stealth Rock, Spikes and Toxic.
Mega Sableye forces players to play more around Pokémon and less around hazards, and this is healthy for the tier.

Let's watch randoms replays?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-466587429
Dugtrio without Mega Sableye defeating a wall, another trapper, and a wallbreaker; half of a team. Competitive.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-452260782
Oh, this beloved variation of Wonder Trio. Dugtrio removes Ttar and Volcanion, reducing the opponent's chance of breaking stall. Mega Sableye did nothing, only be forced to use Recover almost every turn to maintain full health and avoid a 2HKO from any threat from the opposing team.
Even Shedinja is a more broken element in the metagame.

Many players have commented that the experience in the suspect ladder was unpleasant, so this invites us to reflect on whether Mega Sableye should really go.
If you are undecided or will vote ban even without considering Mega Sableye broken, or even just because you want to see something being banned at the end of the generation, please re-think your vote, the tier will still exist after S/M.
I will vote Do Not Ban, the problem is in the trappers; Dugtrio and Pursuit, which do not allow stallbreakers to work effectively, just as it was with Gothitelle last year.
 
Playing more around pokemon (team match-up) and less around the actual fucking moves (i.e hazards) is the definition of uncompetitive. what a load of bs.
Lol, uh, welcome to ORAS: the game.

That is what this game is about. Playing around Pokemon. The game is going to be heavily influenced by matchup regardless of whether Sableye stays or goes. That is the product of having as many OU viable Pokemon as we have. Also, that is not noncompetitive. Trapping Pokemon and preventing them from doing a key mechanic is noncompetitive. Forcing the opponent to play a game of coin flip is noncompetitive. When a Pokemon removes control from the opponent, we can talk. Sableye does not do that, let's settle it down a little bit.
 
Last edited:
Oh, this beloved variation of Wonder Trio. Dugtrio removes Ttar and Volcanion, reducing the opponent's chance of breaking stall. Mega Sableye did nothing, only be forced to use Recover almost every turn to maintain full health and avoid a 2HKO from any threat from the opposing team.
Even Shedinja is a more broken element in the metagame.
sableye-mega did prevent him from setting up rocks allowing dugtrio to come in every time.
 
sableye-mega did prevent him from setting up rocks allowing dugtrio to come in every time.
How does this not imply that arena trap is broken, instead of MSab? All MSab did was provide the support, dugtrio did the dirty work. I feel like that's like if we were to have said "TWave makes Hoopa-U able to outspeed the entire meta, allowing it to destroy everything uncontested, thus we should ban TWave." No, we didn't ban a support aspect that allows the broken aspect to run amok, we banned the broken aspect.

So one of these mons negates certain moves, the other negates an entire fundamental aspect of battling. With arena trap gone (not suggesting we start another suspect or anything, I'm just trying to highlight that this suspect is the wrong one), mons like Heatran will be soooo much freer to actively participate in the battle, rather than always switching out before doing anything because duggy is coming, and MSab won't seem like a problem anymore.

Why are we considering banning the one that doesn't remove a fundamental mechanic from play? We banned shadow tag for this reason. Arena trap is the exact same ability (more or less), and while dugtrio functions very differently from goth, they achieve the same thing: inescapable KOs.

The fuck up in the MSab/ST suspect wasn't that we banned ST and not MSab, it's that we only banned ST and not Arena Trap, too (i think we can all agree magnet pull is situational enough to be fine).

______________
'Arena trap has been around for multiple gens and was never broken so it must be MSab that's broken!!' well guess what, metagames change. Like, how is that even an argument? We're literally all in a thread about changing the meta, right now.
______________
 
How does this not imply that arena trap is broken, instead of MSab? All MSab did was provide the support, dugtrio did the dirty work. I feel like that's like if we were to have said "TWave makes Hoopa-U able to outspeed the entire meta, allowing it to destroy everything uncontested, thus we should ban TWave." No, we didn't ban a support aspect that allows the broken aspect to run amok, we banned the broken aspect.

So one of these mons negates certain moves, the other negates an entire fundamental aspect of battling. With arena trap gone (not suggesting we start another suspect or anything, I'm just trying to highlight that this suspect is the wrong one), mons like Heatran will be soooo much freer to actively participate in the battle, rather than always switching out before doing anything because duggy is coming, and MSab won't seem like a problem anymore.

Why are we considering banning the one that doesn't remove a fundamental mechanic from play? We banned shadow tag for this reason. Arena trap is the exact same ability (more or less), and while dugtrio functions very differently from goth, they achieve the same thing: inescapable KOs.

The fuck up in the MSab/ST suspect wasn't that we banned ST and not MSab, it's that we only banned ST and not Arena Trap, too (i think we can all agree magnet pull is situational enough to be fine).

______________
'Arena trap has been around for multiple gens and was never broken so it must be MSab that's broken!!' well guess what, metagames change. Like, how is that even an argument? We're literally all in a thread about changing the meta, right now.
______________
We are suspecting Sableye because as it turns out banning only shadow tag turned out to be a terrible decision which just let the other half of the problem fester and jump on some other degree of trapping to take advantage of. You might notice that Dugtrio was completely fine all throughout gens 3 and 4, where it had lots of general uses, and gen 5, where it could be used by rain to win the weather war. I guess it trapped Heatran for Genesect too, but Dugtrio did nothing wrong in this scenario. Then, it's regarded as bad all throughout XY, until finally we reach ORAS, where it is paired with Sableye and suddenly is regarded as problematic.

The mistake in the last Sab suspect was not making the logical leap that Sableye must have something to do with Gothitelle becoming more broken than it ever was in XY, and I can only hope the community doesn't make the same mistake twice and let Sab get away again.
 
I don't understand how what happens in Generation 3, 4 or 5 has any relevance in dictating whether or not somethings is broken in Generation 6. Each one of them is different gens with each one going further back lacking some major aspect such as the existence of large groups of Pokemon in their entirety.
 
We are suspecting Sableye because as it turns out banning only shadow tag turned out to be a terrible decision which just let the other half of the problem fester and jump on some other degree of trapping to take advantage of. You might notice that Dugtrio was completely fine all throughout gens 3 and 4, where it had lots of general uses, and gen 5, where it could be used by rain to win the weather war. I guess it trapped Heatran for Genesect too, but Dugtrio did nothing wrong in this scenario. Then, it's regarded as bad all throughout XY, until finally we reach ORAS, where it is paired with Sableye and suddenly is regarded as problematic.

The mistake in the last Sab suspect was not making the logical leap that Sableye must have something to do with Gothitelle becoming more broken than it ever was in XY, and I can only hope the community doesn't make the same mistake twice and let Sab get away again.
Yes, it is the interaction of these two things, MSab and trapping, that is problematic, no denying that. But I don't follow how that leads to the conclusion that MSab is broken, just taking this "logical leap," which is, really, more of a leap of faith.

We have 2 potentially broken elements: MSab and Trapping. We've tested one in full (MSab) and it was deemed competitive. We've tested the other only partially (trapping), and yet are ready to leap to the conclusion that MSab is now uncompetitive, and this analogue (arena trap) to ST is competitive.

MSab without trapping is not uncompetitive in any way, I think(?) we can all agree on this.
You argue that trapping without MSab is not uncompetitive in any way. We can see this seeming to hold water in an example: Rocks are up, Dugtrio's sash breaks, Scarf Heatran KOs.

Now in tandem:
"I want to beat MSab, I need my breaker to do that, Dugtrio invalidates my breaker, I need to beat Dugtrio, and I need rocks up to do that, MSab stops my rocks, ban MSab." It's so clear that Arena Trap is the problem here, because while MSab is invalidating a select few moves, Duggy is invalidating entire pokemon in this situation.

Dugtrio is RU, it has trash stats outside of speed, it has a bad defensive typing, yet it sees OU usage because it's ability is ridiculous and lets it invalidate top-tier threats.
MSab is OU, it has good stats, a good defensive typing, a good ability (both before and after mega-evo), and sees OU usage because of this.

One of these things ^^^ makes sense.

The burden of proof is on the accuser. Show us something that's non-opinion that explicitly demonstrates that MSab is the broken part of this combo. If you can't, then the logical leap should be to ban the aspect that removes a fundamental mechanic from play.

EDIT: again, not suggesting a new suspect. this is purely for the current discussion.
 
We are suspecting Sableye because as it turns out banning only shadow tag turned out to be a terrible decision which just let the other half of the problem fester and jump on some other degree of trapping to take advantage of. You might notice that Dugtrio was completely fine all throughout gens 3 and 4, where it had lots of general uses, and gen 5, where it could be used by rain to win the weather war. I guess it trapped Heatran for Genesect too, but Dugtrio did nothing wrong in this scenario. Then, it's regarded as bad all throughout XY, until finally we reach ORAS, where it is paired with Sableye and suddenly is regarded as problematic.

The mistake in the last Sab suspect was not making the logical leap that Sableye must have something to do with Gothitelle becoming more broken than it ever was in XY, and I can only hope the community doesn't make the same mistake twice and let Sab get away again.
heres the lack of ur argument: u know why it wasnt a problem back then? because magic bounce didnt exist and u had somewhat of a chance getting hazards up...
 
How does this not imply that arena trap is broken, instead of MSab? All MSab did was provide the support, dugtrio did the dirty work. I feel like that's like if we were to have said "TWave makes Hoopa-U able to outspeed the entire meta, allowing it to destroy everything uncontested, thus we should ban TWave." No, we didn't ban a support aspect that allows the broken aspect to run amok, we banned the broken aspect.

So one of these mons negates certain moves, the other negates an entire fundamental aspect of battling. With arena trap gone (not suggesting we start another suspect or anything, I'm just trying to highlight that this suspect is the wrong one), mons like Heatran will be soooo much freer to actively participate in the battle, rather than always switching out before doing anything because duggy is coming, and MSab won't seem like a problem anymore.

Why are we considering banning the one that doesn't remove a fundamental mechanic from play? We banned shadow tag for this reason. Arena trap is the exact same ability (more or less), and while dugtrio functions very differently from goth, they achieve the same thing: inescapable KOs.

The fuck up in the MSab/ST suspect wasn't that we banned ST and not MSab, it's that we only banned ST and not Arena Trap, too (i think we can all agree magnet pull is situational enough to be fine).

______________
'Arena trap has been around for multiple gens and was never broken so it must be MSab that's broken!!' well guess what, metagames change. Like, how is that even an argument? We're literally all in a thread about changing the meta, right now.
______________
I'm not saying arena trap isn't broken. It probably is, but I'm just saying that the dude was totally undermining sableye's role in that game. Also dugtrio is more of a support for mega sableye not the other way around.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 0)

Top