np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 7 - Diamonds [Read post #226] [BANNED]

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http://pastebin.com/YfBgsib9 http://pastebin.com/reBcBJzJ
http://pastebin.com/UFPMcw0M http://pastebin.com/yG7qfdk2 are all teams which you may like to try out to change your opinion to ban. The reason why these teams are coming out now is because people were too lazy to build and play non sab stall before. It is just harder to play no sab stall, and requires predicts and more skill. Again stall is in no means broken and I lean towards ban.
Lol.

The classic "lack of skill" argument. If it isn't broken, then why the hell should it be banned? Because you personally feel it requires little skill? If we based suspects and subsequent bans on how "skill-less" and annoying people think shit is, things would be suspected on a weekly basis. We get it, Sableye became a staple for stall, but so what? Way to regurgitate things we already know. That doesn't mean something needs to be banned. You REALLY aren't helping your case.
 
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you need skill to play with non sab stall. I never said that it is annoying. Sab stall loses on matchup sometimes and wins on matchup other times. Literally every no ban argument is like sab is not broken. Fine we get it sab isn't broken lol. Sab stall has less skill then other stall. It is not that you can't play stall without sab. Abr stall gets usage because people want to win without using skill. It is an already built team for them and they use little skill in abr stall. And I want to clarify that we ban mons if they are unhealthy or broken. Sab fits in the unhealthy category. Sab is similar to shadow tag. Sableye really eases building and battling but does not achieve much fun. If a mon makes a playstyle to use little skill it should be banned. It is very unhealthy and makes skilless players have the ability to win against skilled players.

I am telling this because nobody is ever listening to what everyone says. It is irritating how poor posts are there for no ban
 
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you need skill to play with non sab stall. I never said that it is annoying. Sab stall loses on matchup sometimes and wins on matchup other times. Literally every no ban argument is like sab is not broken. Fine we get it sab isn't broken lol. Sab stall has less skill then other stall. It is not that you can't play stall without sab. Abr stall gets usage because people want to win without using skill. It is an already built team for them and they use little skill in abr stall. And I want to clarify that we ban mons if they are unhealthy or broken. Sab fits in the unhealthy category. Sab is similar to shadow tag. Sableye really eases building and battling but does not achieve much fun. If a mon makes a playstyle to use little skill it should be banned. It is very unhealthy and makes skilless players have the ability to win against skilled players.
Lol, it is absolutely nothing like STag. . . Being "less fun" does not equate to unhealthy, neither does being less skill based in your mind. STag was unhealthy because it removed key Pokemon that could otherwise dismantle stall enabling said stall to win most of its games. STag guaranteed the stallbreakers did not do their job, meaning you had to carry very specific breakers or multiple breakers. That is unhealthy, carrying specific and unorthodox Pokemon, or carrying multiple Pokemon to stop a single one is unhealthy. I will reiterate, being annoying or making the meta "less fun" or being "skill-less" in your mind are not grounds for a ban, otherwise Clefable would have been banned months ago.

Your "poor anti ban posts" statement is moot, the burden of proof is on you, and you are doing a poor job convincing us on the anti ban side with this.
 
Firstly your argument is flawed, Sableye stops breakers like gengar,mew, focus blast reuni etc. from working a lot. Sableye stops momentum that is gained. How many posts are there favoring no ban that do not say that Sableye should be banned. If they provide less fun why should we not ban them. It does not even create a balance in the OU metagame. I fail to see what good things Sableye did for us.
It blocks us from using skilled breakers. It blocks bulky offenses from beating stall. Sableye accomplishes far too many roles for one mon. Stall will still be nice without Sableye. It is extremely uncompetitive because people who do not have knowledge of the metagame can go ahead and win very easily. It not only prevents fun for the player but also stops fun for the opponent. When Dugtrio is so good even in a metagame without mega Sableye stall is not terrible.
 
So any Pokemon that can be picked up by someone with no meta knowledge and "win easily" is now considered noncompetitive? You realize MANY Pokemon fit that description correct? You named three Pokemon Sableye stops, and you're right, Sableye does stop them, but as I have stated previously, in a meta with so many Viable Pokemon, you're going to have things fall off, and don't even begin to act like Sableye is the sole reason for those three dropping off. Mega Lopunny also made many mons obsolete. Clefable makes most Pokemon in the tier obsolete with the combination of its movepool, typing, and abilities, even some of its "counters" and "checks". See, your logic can be applied to many Pokemon in the tier, I could keep going but I'm sure you see my point.

What Sableye did was give Stall a cemented slot, a slot it used to have to decide on, and people don't like that. Sableye does not discourage "skillful breakers" it discourages a few. If there were absolutely no breakers, you would have a point.

You keep going back to this "fun" point, which I'm pretty sure what your entire reason for banning it is, but you know what? Getting Twaved by Clefable as I switch in my mZor isn't "fun". Taking Rocky Helmet damage on my Lopunny on the Landorus/Garchomp switch isn't "fun". Having to constantly worry about hazards on my side of the field isn't "fun". Getting burned by scald on an otherwise resisted move isn't "fun". Losing my item that is absolutely detrimental isn't "fun". This is competitive OU Pokemon, if you're looking for "fun", maybe you should look elsewhere.
 
Wait what, I can mention more breakers. Gengar and calm mind mega alakazam also fit in this category. What I mean by fun is that your opponent literally has to choose between manaphy, charizard mega y + choice band tyranitar, Crawdaunt and very few other things. Sableye is uncompetitive in many ways.
1. Sableye just removes hazards from the field which allows stall to go with only 1 defogger . Sableye stops toxic from crippling stall. Without Sableye toxic users can make plays and ppstall heal bell/aromatherapy. Without Sableye things like ferrothorn would pressure stall. Without Sableye we will need less things that outright beat stall. It makes people who have not used stall feel that stall is a playstyle that wins based on matchup. People will sacrifice a slot to try to 6-0 a specific Sableye stall team. With Sableye stall loses some of its reliability. What positive impact does Sableye have.
Stall loses some of its reliability with Sableye mega. The mega slot of Sableye can be better used to try to outplay breakers then to outright beat them. Sableye also has a pesky ghost typing that allows it to come in on spins. Some examples of things that pressure non sab stall are ferrothorn, Rotom wash, bulky infernape, Scizor mega etc.

Breakers that are currently good are ones that don't rely on much skill. These include rain dance manaphy, mega heracross, togekiss etc. Rain dance manaphy just beats any non-clef stall which it just outright loses to. It tail glows on the chansey switch then clicks rain dance, then goes for another tail glow, and utterly incapitates all those teams. Nasty plot togekiss just relies on rng to win. The flinches have to come before toxic kills it, and ppstalls heal bell. Mega heracross needs literally 1 predict to beat non-doublade stall which it outright loses to. It needs to cc the skarm on the switch and has infinite turns for the same. The same thing applies to the dual breaker core of Zard y + band tar. Zard y + dugtrio just needs to get the dugtrio into the Chansey. The same thing applies to specs hydra + dugtrio. Lo sd Crawdaunt just swords dances on the chansey or knock off. After that it 6-0es. Spdef talon really doeso not need too much skill. If it is taunt wisp then it ppstall msab and wins. If it is bu wisp, then it wisps quag and keeps stalling it out till quag runs out of recover. It is definitely the most skilled breaker among all of them though.
This can be compared to newfound breakers such as mew. Mew can pressure stall with its wisps and knock offs. However stall can easily go into its fire/ mega Diancie. It can be revenge killed by a variety of threats. Reuniculus needs to remove the unaware wall to win. Gengar needs to taunt with many predicts because stall can go with mandibuzz etc. ferrothorn needs to constantly pressure the defogger for example zapdos. It sets up rocks or kills the thing that is in first. It can predict a zapdos by leech seeding on the defog. If the zapdos doubleswitches it can also predict that and go rocks or kill the thing that will be switched in on. Zapdos needs to get toxics on the right time. If it toxics a Skarmory switchin which goes toxic it loses its longetivity. These are just a few examples.
 
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"Noncompetitive in many ways.

1. . ."

I won't harp on that, just felt it was humorous.

By "a few" do you mean roughly 10? Because there are plenty of completely viable, easy to fit on teams Pokemon that give mSab stall a hard time. So you want to be able to easily break stall down like we used to in the past when it was an extremely difficult archetype to use? This is starting to make a lot more sense now. You want to be able to mindlessly break stall like the good ol' days. I have said it already, I get it, Sableye was a godsend for stall, but that doesn't necessarily mean it needs to go. I'm sorry that you have to pack a single slot on your team to break an entire archetype, it must be hard.

All I'm getting from this thread, yourself included, is the age old "I hate stall" statement, but now it's a deeper hatred because Stall received the glue of a lifetime. Trust me, it is VERY apparent you are grasping for straws with your arguments. You are not, and likely never will, convince me otherwise, so I'll keep looking for someone else to make a legitimate argument. Happy voting. I don't care either way, I havent seriously played ORAS in nearly a year, I just think this is a stupid suspect.
 
The only advantages I see to a sableye Ban is that:

A) Stall has a better matchup vs stall as it us less likely that both rely on Sableye wich role compression is amazing for it.

B) More wallbreakers become universal vs balance and stall as those playstyle s enjoy offensive and balance teams becoming match up reliant on what they want to defeat. Yes I went there, passive balance and semi stall enjoy the boom of some anti sableye wallbreakers as those can be punished by other wincons.

C) HO gains better match ups vs stall and is now able to stack hazards easily and isn't pressured of running a slow wallbreaker or set up breaker , thus getting a better match up vs other HO teams.

This comes to team building, and this are the true advantages of a non Sableye metagame.

However sableye isn't broken by any convention, he is just king of role compression with a huge opportunity cost in team building due to it being a mega that often needs to sacrifice a move slot in fake out to safely pop his change.

Again, skill gap between playstyles is a freaking myth, don't use that as a freaking argument it is nothing but mind gymnastics to defend one's ego. Knowledge of the metagame in team building and risk control are true levels of skill between individuals, but not between playstyles.
 
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The only advantages I see to a sableye Ban is that:

A) Stall has a better matchup vs stall as it us less likely that both rely on Sableye wich role compression is amazing for it.

B) More wallbreakers become universal vs balance and stall as those playstyle s enjoy offensive and balance teams becoming match up reliant on what they want to defeat. Yes I went there, passive balance and semi stall enjoy the boom of some anti sableye wallbreakers as those can be punished by other wincons.

C) HO gains better match ups vs stall and us now able to stack hazards easily and isn't pressured of running a slow wallbreaker or set up breaker , thus getting a better match up vs other HO teams.

This comes to team building, and this are the true advantages of a non Sableye metagame.

However sableye isn't broken by any convention, he us just king of role compression with a huge opportunity cost in team building due to it being a mega that often needs to sacrifice a move slot in fake out to safely pop his change.

Again, skill gap between playstyles is a freaking myth, don't use that as a freaking argument it is nothing but mind gymnastics to defend one's ego. Knowledge of the metagame in team building and risk control are true levels if skill between individuals, but not between playstyles.
"Noncompetitive in many ways.

1. . ."

I won't harp on that, just felt it was humorous.

By "a few" do you mean roughly 10? Because there are plenty of completely viable, easy to fit on teams Pokemon that give mSab stall a hard time. So you want to be able to easily break stall down like we used to in the past when it was an extremely difficult archetype to use? This is starting to make a lot more sense now. You want to be able to mindlessly break stall like the good ol' days. I have said it already, I get it, Sableye was a godsend for stall, but that doesn't necessarily mean it needs to go. I'm sorry that you have to pack a single slot on your team to break an entire archetype, it must be hard.

All I'm getting from this thread, yourself included, is the age old "I hate stall" statement, but now it's a deeper hatred because Stall received the glue of a lifetime. Trust me, it is VERY apparent you are grasping for straws with your arguments. You are not, and likely never will, convince me otherwise, so I'll keep looking for someone else to make a legitimate argument. Happy voting. I don't care either way, I havent seriously played ORAS in nearly a year, I just think this is a stupid suspect.
Firstly I'd like to say that I'm a stall player and am not sick of using it. I have got extremely good results with stall in a metagame without Sableye. The breakers easily 6-0 stall if they don't have the single solid counter to them. Those breakers may be completely viable but they are mainly chosen to beat stall. If you have not played ORAS for so long, so you have to try out stall without msab. I miss the old stall heavily and think that this stall is in many ways similar. The problem with these breakers is that you miss a great and extremely fun game. I can see this as a threat because only stall v stall last long these days. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/oususpecttest-471171484 is a replay that shows how games can be nice and long. Even though I won because of a critical hit on a manaphy my opponent had a lot of breakers. We had to make plays left and right. The game was ending into a ppstall battle and I hope the replay will help convince you. If I kept going into clefable, I would have run out of moonlights. Stall can thrive in a metagame without mega Sableye. The metagame without Sableye can broaden teambuilding. These breakers have limited outputs against offensive teams.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
Lol.
If we based suspects and subsequent bans on how "skill-less" and annoying people think shit is, things would be suspected on a weekly basis.
I couldn't agree more. The two megazards would have been banned by now imo.

Let me put this another way. Pretend for a second Deoxys-D was re-introduced into ORAS OU... it would be balanced due to Mega Sableye and the both of them being Defensive and having relevance to hazards in some way.

Now - imagine that Mega Sableye and Deoxys-D was in the same tier during early XY. It would be safer to ban Sab first (no, I am not saying Mega Sableye should be banned... again...) and then Deoxys-D, because of how easily Sab counters Deoxys-D, and without it Deoxys-D gets hazards up easily (similar ex-OU > Ubers MUs see Gren vs Mega Salamance + DD boosts / Shaymin-S... if that makes sense). Mega Sableye's usage would have shot up due to Deoxys-D.

But of course, Deoxys-D is already in ubers. IMO it's too late to ban Mega Sableye (and no, i'm NOT referring to the release of S&M in less than 2 weeks).
I know this is one hypothetical example, and i'm probably comparing apples and oranges - but still.
 
I couldn't agree more. The two megazards would have been banned by now imo.

Let me put this another way. Pretend for a second Deoxys-D was re-introduced into ORAS OU... it would be balanced due to Mega Sableye and the both of them being Defensive and having relevance to hazards in some way.

Now - imagine that Mega Sableye and Deoxys-D was in the same tier during early XY. It would be safer to ban Sab first (no, I am not saying Mega Sableye should be banned... again...) and then Deoxys-D, because of how easily Sab counters Deoxys-D, and without it Deoxys-D gets hazards up easily (similar ex-OU > Ubers MUs see Gren vs Mega Salamance + DD boosts / Shaymin-S... if that makes sense). Mega Sableye's usage would have shot up due to Deoxys-D.

But of course, Deoxys-D is already in ubers. IMO it's too late to ban Mega Sableye (and no, i'm NOT referring to the release of S&M in less than 2 weeks).
I know this is one hypothetical example, and i'm probably comparing apples and oranges - but still.
The goal of this is to make ORAS as good as possible. I fail to see how Deoxys-d is related to this. We ban a mon if the metagame would be better without it. Zard x provides positive benefits. It provides a win-con, a mon that makes bulkier threats have a problem without running things to counter it. Zard y provides a mon with few switches. It adds another feature of teambuilding. This is not done by sable. Sable provides a means to prevent rocks, taunt, and statuses. This is very uncompetitive because these should be an added advantage of specific mons. None of the breakers provide any defensive utility. They do not have merits, unlike the other traditional breakers. For example, mew checks mega medicham and is completely viable in a metagame with Sableye. Sableye pressures all playstyle from getting rocks. Colbur berry azelf is good to set up rocks.
 
Vsomani you are convining me to not want to lean towards ban more then anything.

I may not be able to vote for this test due to time restrictions (birthday weekend yay) but i was able to get a good chunk of games on the suspect ladder to understand a few different changes. Also listening to both sides from this thread i had sort of a change of heart on my stance with sableye.

Me ,probably like most people, were excited that sableye would be retested as it would give us a chance to reevaluate since the original suspect test didnt have sableye banned , therefor we couldnt understand a meta without it. After playing a good amount of games on the ladder, through all the fighting megas and ther new versions of stall that people are trying, It is clear to me as this: some people (including myself) want to see stall just not be viable, so thereby thinking more one dimentionally towards favoring banned (not saying everyone, not even a majority of people, but just some few). It is easy to see an annoying playstyle as something to want to get rid of to make the game more diverse and interesting, and not stall on stall matchups that last 2000+ turns.

HOWEVER, mega sableye isn't broken (im sure everyone can agree on that), and i dont believe mega sableye is uncompetitive. The playstyle isnt impossible to beat, even can outright lose to certain pokemon. Although there are very few pokemon that straight out beat the playstyle, the game is a 6v6 match, not sableye versus the meta or one pokemon vesus the entire stall playstyle. Even if you don't have the straight out answer to stall in one pokemon, most teams still have ways to play around it. if you have a rotom , you are still having to decide whether to burn the possible quagsire, or volt on the sableye into one of yourpowerhouse hitters. , so you still have to use the power of your own judgment. If your the stall player, you have to determine whether you want to risk the burn on your quagsire that will result in you being pressure, or getting volted on when you go into sableye and lose momentum.

Stall is an anti meta playstyle, yeah it will have matchup based games, but so does rain against HO, or baton pass against unprepared teams. Stall isnt a mindless playstyle, and probably is requires more thought process in bad matchup games. If you played stall before you would know that playing around stallbreakers can be very difficult. Sableye provides an way to balance out status, taunt, and hazards. It isnt impossible to get status, taunt, or hazards versus sableye stall, you just have to work for it.

Through my experiences on the ladder, and through some of the discussion on this thread, i'm leaning more towards mega sableye should stay. Sableye isn't broken or noncompetative. Mega sableye is annoying as well as stall in general, but isnt impossible to beat, and welcomes an alternative playstyle to oppose fast powerful HO teams.
 
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Vsomani you are convining me to not want to lean towards ban more then anything.

I may not be able to vote for this test due to time restrictions (birthday weekend yay) but i was able to get a good chunk of games on the suspect ladder to understand a few different changes. Also listening to both sides from this thread i had sort of a change of heart on my stance with sableye.

Me ,probably like most people, were excited that sableye would be retested as it would give us a chance to reevaluate since the original suspect test didnt have sableye banned , therefor we couldnt understand a meta without it. After playing a good amount of games on the ladder, through all the fighting megas and ther new versions of stall that people are trying, It is clear to me as this: some people (including myself) want to see stall just not be viable, so thereby thinking more one dimentionally towards favoring banned (not saying everyone, not even a majority of people, but just some few). It is easy to see an annoying playstyle as something to want to get rid of to make the game more diverse and interesting, and not stall on stall matchups that last 2000+ turns.

HOWEVER, mega sableye isn't broken (im sure everyone can agree on that), and i dont believe mega sableye is uncompetitive. The playstyle isnt impossible to beat, even can outright lose to certain pokemon. Although there are very few pokemon that straight out beat the playstyle, the game is a 6v6 match, not sableye versus the meta or one pokemon vesus the entire stall playstyle. Even if you don't have the straight out answer to stall in one pokemon, most teams still have ways to play around it. if you have a rotom , you are still having to decide whether to burn the possible quagsire, or volt on the sableye into one of yourpowerhouse hitters. , so you still have to use the power of your own judgment. If your the stall player, you have to determine whether you want to risk the burn on your quagsire that will result in you being pressure, or getting volted on when you go into sableye and lose momentum.

Stall is an anti meta playstyle, yeah it will have matchup based games, but so does rain against HO, or baton pass against unprepared teams. Stall isnt a mindless playstyle, and probably is requires more thought process in bad matchup games. If you played stall before you would know that playing around stallbreakers can be very difficult. Sableye provides an way to balance out status, taunt, and hazards. It isnt impossible to get status, taunt, or hazards versus sableye stall, you just have to work for it.

Through my experiences on the ladder, and through some of the discussion on this thread, i'm leaning more towards mega sableye should stay. Sableye isn't broken or noncompetative. Mega sableye isnt annoying as well as stall in general, but isnt impossible to beat, and welcomes an alternative playstyle to oppose fast powerful HO teams.
I just want to say that I am a stall player again. I have compared both stalls. I am, in fact getting better results without sableye. It is a fun plazstyle for me. I am not saying that sableye stall is not fun. I am saying that non-sableye stall is more fun. Non-sableye stall does not beat normal builds. The problem with sableye stall is that it either autowins or autoloses pretty much. It is extremely hard to taunt, get rocks up, or status sableye builds. This requires using rockers that are otherwise outclassed to set up hazards like Abr said. Heatran is trapped by dugtrio but people need to get rocks up so badly that they can sacrifice their rocker. It is extremely difficult to spikestack like abr said. Stall will not be unviable without it. How many times can mew break through sableye. I doubt it is 1 out of 10.

The difference comparing this time to last time is that this time people use dugtrio way more. Dual defog dugtrio is extremely nice and can have megas like mega altaria and mega charizard x. Mega Diancie is also nice to have for counterring mew, and revenge killing a variety of threats like keldeo. It is not that sableye is annoying. It is either all or none on team preview. People can decide whether they win or lose from team preview from some matchups. This is true because if the stall team does not have one or few hard counters to x specific breaker, then it loses. In all other circumstances it wins. Stall is used by people who just want to win, and have not expirienced the beauty of playing stall for being tough for yourslef. I would say that people use sableye stall because and all other variants have not been brought up yet, because people are lazy and want ease in both teambuilding and battling to win.
Edit: Knock off cripples 99% of its checks and counters which are not megas, which it spams. It is much easier to play for and against sableye stall. To play against sableye stall if your team doesnt have a breaker, click the x button. if your team has a breaker that is not hard countered by one of his mons, sack a mon to let it set up, or attack, then sweep. Also counter lead sable. To play for sableye stall lead sableye. If he counter leads you, you click fake out, then switch to the respective check. If he has a great breaker, against your team, it is as easy as clicking the x button at the beginning.
Non-sableye stall makes it feel like everything should be dealt with in a proper way. From volt turners like rotom, raikou, mmane,(i'm not kidding it can pressure stall) landorus, scizor, keldeo, tornadus etc. to common win conditions like bisharp, nasty plot thundurus, sub cm keldeo, mega scizor etc. This lets spikers like ferrothorn, skarmory etc. cause a nuisance for stall. Dealing with so many hazards are extremely important in acoiding ohkos, 2hkos, and 3hkoes from x mon. A non msab meta allows spikestack to thrive, which is nice because your opponent needs to set up spikes on the right mon, to get as many layers as possible. If x mon is killed after y amount of spikes which allows z mon to sweep, you can sack your entire team to get those spikes. If x mon sweeps with y poke out of the picture , and y poke has recovery spikes and double switches can be used to weaken, and kill the y poke out of the picture. Thee switches can be predicted. Against stall, this allows you to try to pressure and remove the defogger, with a series of plays. Sableye also stops ppstalling heal bell/ aromatherapy.
Vsomani you are convining me to not want to lean towards ban more then anything.

I may not be able to vote for this test due to time restrictions (birthday weekend yay) but i was able to get a good chunk of games on the suspect ladder to understand a few different changes. Also listening to both sides from this thread i had sort of a change of heart on my stance with sableye.

Me ,probably like most people, were excited that sableye would be retested as it would give us a chance to reevaluate since the original suspect test didnt have sableye banned , therefor we couldnt understand a meta without it. After playing a good amount of games on the ladder, through all the fighting megas and ther new versions of stall that people are trying, It is clear to me as this: some people (including myself) want to see stall just not be viable, so thereby thinking more one dimentionally towards favoring banned (not saying everyone, not even a majority of people, but just some few). It is easy to see an annoying playstyle as something to want to get rid of to make the game more diverse and interesting, and not stall on stall matchups that last 2000+ turns.

HOWEVER, mega sableye isn't broken (im sure everyone can agree on that), and i dont believe mega sableye is uncompetitive. The playstyle isnt impossible to beat, even can outright lose to certain pokemon. Although there are very few pokemon that straight out beat the playstyle, the game is a 6v6 match, not sableye versus the meta or one pokemon vesus the entire stall playstyle. Even if you don't have the straight out answer to stall in one pokemon, most teams still have ways to play around it. if you have a rotom , you are still having to decide whether to burn the possible quagsire, or volt on the sableye into one of yourpowerhouse hitters. , so you still have to use the power of your own judgment. If your the stall player, you have to determine whether you want to risk the burn on your quagsire that will result in you being pressure, or getting volted on when you go into sableye and lose momentum.

Stall is an anti meta playstyle, yeah it will have matchup based games, but so does rain against HO, or baton pass against unprepared teams. Stall isnt a mindless playstyle, and probably is requires more thought process in bad matchup games. If you played stall before you would know that playing around stallbreakers can be very difficult. Sableye provides an way to balance out status, taunt, and hazards. It isnt impossible to get status, taunt, or hazards versus sableye stall, you just have to work for it.

Through my experiences on the ladder, and through some of the discussion on this thread, i'm leaning more towards mega sableye should stay. Sableye isn't broken or noncompetative. Mega sableye is annoying as well as stall in general, but isnt impossible to beat, and welcomes an alternative playstyle to oppose fast powerful HO teams.
Banning sableye will remove a huge part of the matchup that you say. It will not let stall have polar matchup. North Pole for win, South Pole for lose. People favoring no ban have not given me any reasonable argument of what good sableye does. I have posted this again and again. If the power house breaker is hard countered, its over before it starts. If it is not hard countered, again it is over before it starts. If x mon has the ability to outspeed and atleast 2hko everything it is good game.Why will you not go amoongus on rotom."The playstyle isnt impossible to beat, even can outright lose to certain pokemon." I fail to understand how this is good. If it outright loses to a certain mon, does it not make it more matchup reliant. The whole argument I had was that it outright loses to a certain mon. One thing you do not understand is that stall will NOT die without sableye. It will have a nice new era, which allows it to use even MORE skill then sab stall had. What healthy effects does sab have on the meta, again?
Sab has far more cons then pros. It makes stall better, and even can impact hyper offense towards the meta. If you have not tried out stall, then I think that that is the very problem. You need to try stall to get a clear look at the ban side of the argument Sab is uncompetitive because it stops stall from playing around so many threats. It makes status absorbers necessary. It hugely pressures non sab, non fire builds.
 
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I already said the burden of proof is on you. I can't prove to you how it isn't broken, noncompetitive, or centralizing, you need to prove how it is those things. Which you are not doing in the slightest, regardless of what you may think.

The "good" things Sableye did are all things you have said are "cons" but being "cons" doesn't mean it needs to go. But either way, like I said, the burden is on you, I don't think you know how these things work, I cannot prove something is "not".
 

p2

Banned deucer.
ladder is still broken, it's near impossible to get reqs if you lose even once in say your first 20 games since ps matchmaking is working brilliantly and matching 1400+ people with 1100 people, which causes an absurd gxe and elo drop which makes it extremely difficult to actually get reqs because 1. you need to not get lucked 2. you need to not get a shit matchup (its ladder literally anything can happen) 3. once you lose gxe its extremely difficult to gain it all back because you lose so much if you lose in the first place (so much fun when you lose to things entirely out of your control tho, shoutouts scald.)

this is actually unbearable because losing even early on once throws your alt off track of the set COIL. it's pretty shit and this can definitely be seen in the voter id thread where only 17 people have actually qualified through laddering, despite the deadline being in 3 days.

lets compare this to the hoopa-u suspect which had the exact same reqs as this suspect does, hoopa-u suspect had over 150 voters qualified by the 9th of april (3 days before the deadline)

The Immortal i believe you're the main guy behind the ladders, is there any reasoning for this because it definitely shouldn't be happening
 

The Immortal

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The Immortal i believe you're the main guy behind the ladders, is there any reasoning for this because it definitely shouldn't be happening
Well I haven't touched matchmaking before; that was solely done by Zarel. In any case, I took a look at the code made the appropriate change to fix the issue you have described. Will be updated on the next PS! restart.
 
Hi! First post on Smogon. Although I'm not new to competitive pokemon, I haven't really played since early XY. But since Sun & Moon is coming out soon I thought it would be interesting to get back into things, and so far it's been really fun.

so anyway, here's something I've found really good on the Suspect ladder



Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 20 Def / 224 SpD / 16 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Night Shade
- Roost

This pokemon has just been excellent for me, with its ability to 1v1 a majority of the tier and pretty much all non-Dark type physical attackers. However, I tried out the set on the analysis, but quickly found out that it was subpar. I definitely prefer Night Shade over Knock Off, because Knock Off is so weak vs most targets that Mew can barely stallbreak before getting PP stalled our stalled out by a status condition itself. Night Shade deals consistent damage vs pretty much everything and gives Mew no free switch ins. It allows Mew to 1v1 Heatran as well as CM Clefable, which is absolutely huge, and also prevents free switches to the likes of Diancie or Mega Zards. The only negative I can see from running this over Knock Off is not being able to touch Chansey, which admittedly is pretty big. But then again stall is a bit less prevalent without Sableye.

Mew in general obviously has a bunch of flaws such as being almost required to be paired with a Heal Bell user, and being bait for the Zard forms and Talonflame with Rocks down. However, I think the positives outweigh it in a lot of cases and this pokemon deserves to see a lot more use, especially if Sableye is banned.

EDIT: I guess I should have put this in metagame discussion rather than the Suspect thread, my bad
 
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Martin

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Hi! First post on Smogon. Although I'm not new to competitive pokemon, I haven't really played since early XY. But since Sun & Moon is coming out soon I thought it would be interesting to get back into things, and so far it's been really fun.

so anyway, here's something I've found really good on the Suspect ladder



Mew @ Leftovers
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 248 HP / 20 Def / 224 SpD / 16 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Taunt
- Will-O-Wisp
- Night Shade
- Roost

This pokemon has just been excellent for me, with its ability to 1v1 a majority of the tier and pretty much all non-Dark type physical attackers. However, I tried out the set on the analysis, but quickly found out that it was subpar. I definitely prefer Night Shade over Knock Off, because Knock Off is so weak vs most targets that Mew can barely stallbreak before getting PP stalled our stalled out by a status condition itself. Night Shade deals consistent damage vs pretty much everything and gives Mew no free switch ins. It allows Mew to 1v1 Heatran as well as CM Clefable, which is absolutely huge, and also prevents free switches to the likes of Diancie or Mega Zards. The only negative I can see from running this over Knock Off is not being able to touch Chansey, which admittedly is pretty big. But then again stall is a bit less prevalent without Sableye.

Mew in general obviously has a bunch of flaws such as being almost required to be paired with a Heal Bell user, and being bait for the Zard forms and Talonflame with Rocks down. However, I think the positives outweigh it in a lot of cases and this pokemon deserves to see a lot more use, especially if Sableye is banned.

EDIT: I guess I should have put this in metagame discussion rather than the Suspect thread, my bad
Just a quick note, but Mew also has access to Seismic Toss, which both has more PP (32 vs. 24) and allows it to chip Chansey that come in on it and allows it to win 1v1 between Toss, Taunt and Roost. It's worth considering as such, because it means that you can last very slightly longer if you are forced into a PP war while also no longer leaving it completely cockblocked by Chansey.
 
I keep seeing people saying how centralizing Mega Sableye is to stall, but is it really that bad?
I mean, if centralization is that big a deal, shouldn't Stealth Rock be banned then? It's the only mandatory move in the meta, and it makes every team fashion a way to fit a hazard remover, and there aren't that many to begin with, or be built in a way that minimizes the entry hazard effect, which is kind of a novelty.
I see that Mega Sableye can make some teams and strategies not viable, mainly destroying non-M Sab stall, but banning him will erradicate M Sab stall, so...
 

Shurtugal

The Enterpriser.
is a Tiering Contributor
Oh look. I demanded Sableye ban during Shadow Tag suspect and nobody took me seriously. But here we are?

I've always felt that stall needed to be hit somewhere, and while I'm not entirely convinced that banning Mega Sableye is the best solution, it does help. Just the absence of Mega Sableye wil spawn a bunch of stallbreakers that otherwise would not have been very reliable on their own, some of the most notable being: Mega Medicham, Taunt Wisp Mew, and Taunt + Substitute Gengar. Taunt Breakers especially will rise in usage, things like Taunt Gliscor which would normally be inferior to the SD counterpart will now have a much stronger role now that its Taunt won't be bounced back.

This ban is even healthy for stall itself -- Magic Bounce is pretty crippling to stall teams, too, and with its absense stall vs stall teams won't be so slanted anymore.

I suppose much of my personal bias comes from never using Clefable on any team I've built in this meta ever, but that should speak volume in itself -- literally one Pokemon that has kept people from seeing the effect Sableye has on the metagame.

Now, I had a bunch of stronger arguments previously during the Shadow Tag suspect, but honestly -- I really don't want to re-tpye any of that, so here's to hoping my post doesn't get deleted because yes I had a bunch of things to say and if you really want to read up on it: it's already on the site! Just scroll through my content or something idk there's a lot of in-depth reasons for this ban, but this post is just a summary of my thoughts.

Basically, I just wanted to stop in and discuss what a sabeleye-less metagame will look like: more medicham, more potential stallbreakers (not just manaphy! actual other things, more options, diversity!), and better stall v stall matchup.

Read: I am not trying to imply Manaphy is the *only* stallbreaker at all, just saying that we will have a lot more options compared to what we have now imho)


Yes, stall is gonna take a hit from this ban, but I think that is kind of the point? (also, never again will I have to face Shedinja + Sableye + Dugtrio? Sign me up please).

Ban Sabelye.
 
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I wouldn't be opposed to that whatsoever. The state of the ladder and just how hard it's been to get reqs (game cap is horrendous, should be based off GXE regardless of games, or at least with a higher game cap, as to allow for bullshit losses to random jank and hax to be mitigated somewhat), makes me feel this way. Obviously it's at the whim of the council but seriously this suspect has been a farce; from the even-worse-than-standard quality of the discussion itt, to the complete apathy, to the shambles of the ladder match-making & relative inactivity equating to very little inflation and, subsequently, a much higher chance of facing opponents way below your ELO (thanks, regular OU ladder).

Once again, for reference, there are only 36 people confirmed the day before voting starts, and I doubt that figure will rise much above 50 after the final rush for reqs. I, as well as many others, don't like the idea of the future of OR/AS OU being decided by such a small handful of people. I don't think an extension should be completely ruled out at all.
 
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I wouldn't be opposed to that whatsoever. The state of the ladder and just how hard it's been to get reqs (game cap is horrendous, should be based off GXE regardless of games, or at least with a higher game cap, as to allow for bullshit losses to random jank and hax to be mitigated somewhat), makes me feel this way. Obviously it's at the whim of the council but seriously this suspect has been a farce; from the even-worse-than-standard quality of the discussion itt, to the complete apathy, to the shambles of the ladder match-making & relative inactivity equating to very little inflation and, subsequently, a much higher chance of facing opponents way below your ELO (thanks, regular OU ladder).

Once again, for reference, there are only 36 people confirmed the day before voting starts, and I doubt that figure will rise much above 50 after the final rush for reqs. I, as well as many others, don't like the idea of the future of OR/AS OU being decided by such a small handful of people. I don't think an extension should be completely ruled out at all.
This.

I also want to add that the council's response to the controversy surrounding the suspect test (ladder issues, quality of the suspect test thread mainly) will set precedent for the next generation, and will also reflect upon the validity of the council and their decisions in the eyes of the general community. I hope that the council considers this request and we can go into a new generation with a positive, animosity free mindset, and furthermore, will use this as a learning experience for suspect tests in the future.
 
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