np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 7 - Diamonds [Read post #226] [BANNED]

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6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
Even though I am leaning no ban it is obvious that mega sableye has counters. The reason why the good players who want to ban it vote ban is because stall loses skill. i do not think it will be banned. The real question is whether stall is playable in a sab less meta.
tch...
Pathetic, all of you who say Mega Sableye should be banned. You're still going to say 'X IS BRAINLESS, X IS THIS, X IS THAT - DEEEEEEGGGGGUUUUUUUUUUUAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!' You're all under the mirage that stall plays absolutely perfectly (or at least you think that, because you think Stall is an 'easy' playstyle). It all proves how futile this suspect test is in general - if you're that content to LITERALLY jump at ghosts (in the form of a mon that has less then, what? 10% usage?), then you're perverting what the point of a ban is. Even if this suspect ends up at the 60% pro-ban majority: it's not 100% reflective of the ENTIRE playerbase.

I know this sounds like an attack - but I feel as though a lot of people need to wake up, and bin certain mentalities they have jammed in their head that make them think they're right just because they've gotten used to that mentality with no consideration for others.
 

SketchUp

Don't let your memes be dreams
JoycapJoshST
I like how you are calling out other peoples posts (ngl some arguments aren't that good), yet your own posts are filled with flawed logic and when someone comments on it you either give a really stubborn reply or just remove the message from your wall.

You have compared this suspect to suspects of offensive pokemon like Hoopa-U and Mega Metagross multiple times, while the reason to suspect a defensive pokemon is different from an offensive pokemon. Mega Sableye isn't being suspected because it's this super wall that counters 90% of the metagame and can only be killed by very specific, niche pokemon (because it isn't). It's being suspected because its ability and few weaknesses make it (apparently) a pretty unhealthy pokemon, because it invalidates many anti-stall measurements.
Stallbreaking isn't just using a Mega Diancie + a fighting type to beat Chansey, like the amazing AV Conkeldurr you mentioned, it's also about pressuring its defensive core. MDiancie + Conkeldurr isn't going to break stall because stall just switches to their counters until you kill your own pokemon with residual damage from hazards, status and such. It is much harder to put the same amount of pressure on a stall team, because Mega Sableye makes sure you can't easily get up your hazards, taunt the whole stall team to death or spread status. I'm against ban, don't get me wrong and I think many of the pro ban arguments are kinda exaggerating the influence of Mega Sableye. But please don't be like AV Conkeldurr is a valid argument and then call out other posts.

These are just two of like ten posts your made, all with pretty bad arguments. You can continue making posts, repeating the same flawed arguments over and over again and just ignore the posts that actually improve the discussion, but don't be like anyone takes you seriously if you call out other people for not agreeing with you.

certain mentalities they have jammed in their head that make them think they're right just because they've gotten used to that mentality with no consideration for others.
Oh, the irony.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
JoycapJoshST
I like how you are calling out other peoples posts (ngl some arguments aren't that good), yet your own posts are filled with flawed logic and when someone comments on it you either give a really stubborn reply or just remove the message from your wall.

You have compared this suspect to suspects of offensive pokemon like Hoopa-U and Mega Metagross multiple times, while the reason to suspect a defensive pokemon is different from an offensive pokemon. Mega Sableye isn't being suspected because it's this super wall that counters 90% of the metagame and can only be killed by very specific, niche pokemon (because it isn't). It's being suspected because its ability and few weaknesses make it (apparently) a pretty unhealthy pokemon, because it invalidates many anti-stall measurements.
Stallbreaking isn't just using a Mega Diancie + a fighting type to beat Chansey, like the amazing AV Conkeldurr you mentioned, it's also about pressuring its defensive core. MDiancie + Conkeldurr isn't going to break stall because stall just switches to their counters until you kill your own pokemon with residual damage from hazards, status and such. It is much harder to put the same amount of pressure on a stall team, because Mega Sableye makes sure you can't easily get up your hazards, taunt the whole stall team to death or spread status. I'm against ban, don't get me wrong and I think many of the pro ban arguments are kinda exaggerating the influence of Mega Sableye. But please don't be like AV Conkeldurr is a valid argument and then call out other posts.

These are just two of like ten posts your made, all with pretty bad arguments. You can continue making posts, repeating the same flawed arguments over and over again and just ignore the posts that actually improve the discussion, but don't be like anyone takes you seriously if you call out other people for not agreeing with you.

Oh, the irony.
I never said my posts were flawless. That post I made about MDiancie + Conkeldurr core is one hypothetical example that I'd advise you A) take with a grain of salt, or B) maybe build into an actual team alongside, say, Torn-T/Diggersby/Magnezone etc.

Also - what's wrong with me mentioning Defog? 'Oh, double switches have less value without your own hazards'. Yeaaaahhhh... Less value =/= completely worthless. Sab still relies on teammates, which would indicate it's scared out easily without proper prior setup. You can then double into your defogger and gain a bit of momentum that way. And BEFORE you say 'what if they switch into you counter to hazard control'. Well it just means they have a proper download on your habits - A game runs naturally that way. What's stopping you from doing the same?

Oh and as for the removal of messages from my wall - the reply button went walkabouts. Sorry, they'd just look out of context if I left them there.
 
These are a bunch of arguments that have come up in the last few pages defending Sableye:
  • Let's not ban Sab because I want the meta to remain stagnant and unchanged.
  • Pro-banners all hate stall/only want it banned because they lose to stall. Sab stall is skillful, as legitimate a playstyle as any other. This strikes me as odd considering the first non-mod post is pro-ban, by literally the person who brought back Sab stall as an archetype after the goth ban, because he thinks it takes skill out of the game and is heavily restrictive.
  • Dugtrio, the pokemon that hasn't been OU for a 3 generations, is the real problem here.
  • Trying to label the pro-ban side as people who only want it banned because it's "annoying".
  • It's ok, just use this AV conk + Diancie core to beat Sab stall. I'll point out the obvious, that Sab + Skarm walls this with ease.
These either fall apart almost immediately under scrutiny, or don't say anything about Sableye itself. If you're saying Dugtrio is potentially a problem, I think you need to take a long hard look at how far you're going to blame old gen trappers for a problem that only occurs in ORAS.

Here's a brief explanation of a philosophical idea: RM Hare's "blik", meaning an unfalsifiable belief according to which a worldview is established. He used it to talk about religion and faith, and the belief in something despite a lack of any empirical evidence. The example he gives is of a crazed student who believes all university professors want to kill him.

Bliks don't have to impede normal function, and they can be meaningful. However, in the case of the trapping blik, this has stunted the growth of the tier for a long time. It has let the problem of Sableye linger when we could have gotten rid of it a whole year ago, because voters too happily solely blamed a pokemon that has been in the game since bw2, for problems that only started to occur in ORAS. The problems with goth stall ONLY started to occur when Sableye was introduced into the tier, and yet not enough voters realised that, logically, this must point to a combination of factors, rather than just shadow tag. Now, this blik has returned stronger than ever, and looks to mess up the tier for good. It has reached a point where posts legitimately blame a pokemon multiple tiers below OU for a problem that exists solely in OU, and argue that stall is broken with Dugtrio as a trapper, when stall has used dugtrio for the exact and specific purpose of removing trappers it doesn't like since ADV.

I realise that the above will come off as unbelievably condescending. Originally, I was just going to include the initial list, and point out these weren't the most effective arguments. It's understandable that people at the time thought gothitelle was a much bigger problem, because shadow tag + trickscarf to give it a massive scope of potential trap targets was very powerful. Sableye could still be demonstrated to be a problem then, but I think it's reasonable to say Gothitelle was a bigger one. However, as some posts have gone so far as to blame absolutely anything with a trapping ability, rather than look at things in isolation, and what factors have changed to reach the current state of the metagame, I think it's time to try and knock this extreme anti-trapping blik on the head once and for all.

It's not only important to get rid of this blik to fix the ORAS ladder, but also, because the way things are headed right now, we're going to have all kinds of problems in SunMoon due to trappers being blamed, when the culprit might be something separate.

Anyway, moving on to tackle a post that talks about unhealthiness in the meta:
Thanks for being a condescending douchebag. Glad to know you have it in you.

The matchup issues it enables are not as strong as I feel you are claiming. Part of this is the fact that it does have things that can punish it's presence (seeing as you dont like the term counters, how about stallbreakers) that can come in on it with little to no difficulty. It's also a pokemon that is very prone to being worn down, and if you're using pokemon that cannot deal with Sableye in getting up rocks, those mons have no way to chip damage Sableye to eventually do their job and you refuse to prepare with other parts of your team for Sableye stall teams, then that is on you.

I dont know where this myth came from that each Stall team only loses to a single specific set or breaker, with all of them being wildly different from each other. There are a lot of choices to make that make your team better vs Sableye stalls, and in addition to that these choices are normally also good vs Balance teams. The best example of this is SD Grounds, which give the current Dugtrio stall a lot of issues, however most breakers that aren't ohko'd by Duggy are effective in both the Stall and Balance matchup. Things like Taunt Gengar, Heracross, Mega Gardevoir, ZardY+Ttar, Manaphy, subcm Keldeo, Vincune, Magma Storm Tran, Nasty Plot Thundurus, ext are far from useless mons in the meta, and they're not at all useless in other matchups. Of course, you can point out that Sableye stalls do have ways of taking them out, however except in the case of Tran, all of those ways are based on the skill of the user rather than something uncompetitive about them.

Unhealthy is a difficult thing to quantify, and is largely subjective. If you feel Sableye is banworthy, there's little that can be said or done to convince you. But I do not think that the level of adaption required to deal with Sableye, and indeed Sableye teams, is too much to ask for considering the frequency of said answers, the effectiveness of those answers against a majority of teams in the meta, the ease of accommodation of these answers (ie: its not like a Volcarona needing the team built around it, with the exception of zardy) and the poor performance of Sableye teams in tour play, suggesting strongly to me that Sableye isn't nearly as good as the hyperbole makes him out to be.
I find it very odd that you see Sableye as a benign presence, but Baton Pass as an obnoxious mess. I'll use Baton Pass as a substitute to show why I think Sab stall + BP are very comparable. Personally I see Sab stall as a greater problem, but anyway:

Baton Pass, in its current state, can be beaten by things which are common in the ORAS OU tier, and that you don't need to make major changes to your team in order to operate. For example, Mega Heracross can break through Scolipede's sub and KO it with Rock Blast, the combination of roar/whirlwind + Mega Metagross beats any variant of baton pass right now. Simply by slapping taunt onto Thundurus can you shut down Scoli before it gets a chance to BP, and this has been true ever since BP chains first made their appearance in XY. Furthermore, Espeon is far from unstoppable even when it gets passed to, losing to TTar, or anything that can hit it hard for physical super effective damage, which becomes easier now that Scolipede can't pass defence boosts. But the options to deal with BP aren't just exclusive to offensive builds, stall has an option too in running haze on Quagsire, which granted, isn't ideal, but gives up 1 slot on 1 pokemon to deal with a whole playstyle way better.

Now, based on baton pass in its current state seeing little tour use, having common counters in OU, the opposing player being in a noticeably better position by playing carefully around scolipede than when they don't, I put forward, that Baton Pass, after the nerfs, is a perfectly healthy part of OU.

Now of course, there's a flaw in the above logic, which is that while it's possible to beat the current state of baton pass, using things which are totally accessible in OU, that doesn't change the fact that it is ridiculously easy to win with it. The very same logic applies with Sableye, only doubly so because if you can stop the keystone of Baton Pass, Scolipede, from doing its work, then you can beat it, ie they have to use Scolipede to get fast boosts, but Sab stall only needs to go into Sab when they deem it beneficial to do so.

And that's the main difference between something that puts big pressure on building in a bad way, like BP + Sab stall, and something that's centralising in a good way, like GSC Snorlax, which you mentioned during your conversation with ABR. When I add Snorlax to a GSC team, I'm not looking to subtract skill from the game, but merely optimise my team to perform well, increasing the range and effectiveness of good plays I can make in a match. When I build Sab stall/BP, I am quite specifically looking from the very start to not give the opponent a fair chance to fight back, ie I'm looking to deduct skill from the game. Just a note here that I have actually spammed Sab stall on the ladder before to test whether I really was right in thinking it lacked skill, and I saw from the results that I had been correct.

There's also the key factor, that now there's plenty more threats to deal with in OU, so teams which aim to create matchup issues will grow increasingly effective, and therefore we must be more diligent in stopping these strategies. Incidentally, NP Thundurus, SubCM Keldeo, and Vinc Cune aren't the most reliable of breakers, and most stall teams are much better prepared for Manaphy than they once were. But the point I really need people to take away from this is that it's not right to put the onus of building on one player, to have them construct a team basically the ground up to accommodate one of the powerful breakers that can smash sab stall, as they are generally not splashable at all, but instead we should insist that both players should have to play well. That's really what this suspect is about - to try and take away the most common and effective way that players can use to hop around having to play well, to ensure that bad matchups have a better chance of being outplayed, and to set about a future tiering policy that tackles the issue of matchup based teams better.

Just as a last addition, I should mention that while there are teams which are unarguably easy to play, running about on the ladder, this is very different from a team that specifically aims to take away your opponent's options, and make their good plays count for nothing.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
These are a bunch of arguments that have come up in the last few pages defending Sableye:
  • Let's not ban Sab because I want the meta to remain stagnant and unchanged.
  • Pro-banners all hate stall/only want it banned because they lose to stall. Sab stall is skillful, as legitimate a playstyle as any other. This strikes me as odd considering the first non-mod post is pro-ban, by literally the person who brought back Sab stall as an archetype after the goth ban, because he thinks it takes skill out of the game and is heavily restrictive.
  • Dugtrio, the pokemon that hasn't been OU for a 3 generations, is the real problem here.
  • Trying to label the pro-ban side as people who only want it banned because it's "annoying".
  • It's ok, just use this AV conk + Diancie core to beat Sab stall. I'll point out the obvious, that Sab + Skarm walls this with ease.
These either fall apart almost immediately under scrutiny, or don't say anything about Sableye itself. If you're saying Dugtrio is potentially a problem, I think you need to take a long hard look at how far you're going to blame old gen trappers for a problem that only occurs in ORAS.

Here's a brief explanation of a philosophical idea: RM Hare's "blik", meaning an unfalsifiable belief according to which a worldview is established. He used it to talk about religion and faith, and the belief in something despite a lack of any empirical evidence. The example he gives is of a crazed student who believes all university professors want to kill him.

Bliks don't have to impede normal function, and they can be meaningful. However, in the case of the trapping blik, this has stunted the growth of the tier for a long time. It has let the problem of Sableye linger when we could have gotten rid of it a whole year ago, because voters too happily solely blamed a pokemon that has been in the game since bw2, for problems that only started to occur in ORAS. The problems with goth stall ONLY started to occur when Sableye was introduced into the tier, and yet not enough voters realised that, logically, this must point to a combination of factors, rather than just shadow tag. Now, this blik has returned stronger than ever, and looks to mess up the tier for good. It has reached a point where posts legitimately blame a pokemon multiple tiers below OU for a problem that exists solely in OU, and argue that stall is broken with Dugtrio as a trapper, when stall has used dugtrio for the exact and specific purpose of removing trappers it doesn't like since ADV.

I realise that the above will come off as unbelievably condescending. Originally, I was just going to include the initial list, and point out these weren't the most effective arguments. It's understandable that people at the time thought gothitelle was a much bigger problem, because shadow tag + trickscarf to give it a massive scope of potential trap targets was very powerful. Sableye could still be demonstrated to be a problem then, but I think it's reasonable to say Gothitelle was a bigger one. However, as some posts have gone so far as to blame absolutely anything with a trapping ability, rather than look at things in isolation, and what factors have changed to reach the current state of the metagame, I think it's time to try and knock this extreme anti-trapping blik on the head once and for all.

It's not only important to get rid of this blik to fix the ORAS ladder, but also, because the way things are headed right now, we're going to have all kinds of problems in SunMoon due to trappers being blamed, when the culprit might be something separate.

Anyway, moving on to tackle a post that talks about unhealthiness in the meta:


I find it very odd that you see Sableye as a benign presence, but Baton Pass as an obnoxious mess. I'll use Baton Pass as a substitute to show why I think Sab stall + BP are very comparable. Personally I see Sab stall as a greater problem, but anyway:

Baton Pass, in its current state, can be beaten by things which are common in the ORAS OU tier, and that you don't need to make major changes to your team in order to operate. For example, Mega Heracross can break through Scolipede's sub and KO it with Rock Blast, the combination of roar/whirlwind + Mega Metagross beats any variant of baton pass right now. Simply by slapping taunt onto Thundurus can you shut down Scoli before it gets a chance to BP, and this has been true ever since BP chains first made their appearance in XY. Furthermore, Espeon is far from unstoppable even when it gets passed to, losing to TTar, or anything that can hit it hard for physical super effective damage, which becomes easier now that Scolipede can't pass defence boosts. But the options to deal with BP aren't just exclusive to offensive builds, stall has an option too in running haze on Quagsire, which granted, isn't ideal, but gives up 1 slot on 1 pokemon to deal with a whole playstyle way better.

Now, based on baton pass in its current state seeing little tour use, having common counters in OU, the opposing player being in a noticeably better position by playing carefully around scolipede than when they don't, I put forward, that Baton Pass, after the nerfs, is a perfectly healthy part of OU.

Now of course, there's a flaw in the above logic, which is that while it's possible to beat the current state of baton pass, using things which are totally accessible in OU, that doesn't change the fact that it is ridiculously easy to win with it. The very same logic applies with Sableye, only doubly so because if you can stop the keystone of Baton Pass, Scolipede, from doing its work, then you can beat it, ie they have to use Scolipede to get fast boosts, but Sab stall only needs to go into Sab when they deem it beneficial to do so.

And that's the main difference between something that puts big pressure on building in a bad way, like BP + Sab stall, and something that's centralising in a good way, like GSC Snorlax, which you mentioned during your conversation with ABR. When I add Snorlax to a GSC team, I'm not looking to subtract skill from the game, but merely optimise my team to perform well, increasing the range and effectiveness of good plays I can make in a match. When I build Sab stall/BP, I am quite specifically looking from the very start to not give the opponent a fair chance to fight back, ie I'm looking to deduct skill from the game. Just a note here that I have actually spammed Sab stall on the ladder before to test whether I really was right in thinking it lacked skill, and I saw from the results that I had been correct.

There's also the key factor, that now there's plenty more threats to deal with in OU, so teams which aim to create matchup issues will grow increasingly effective, and therefore we must be more diligent in stopping these strategies. Incidentally, NP Thundurus, SubCM Keldeo, and Vinc Cune aren't the most reliable of breakers, and most stall teams are much better prepared for Manaphy than they once were. But the point I really need people to take away from this is that it's not right to put the onus of building on one player, to have them construct a team basically the ground up to accommodate one of the powerful breakers that can smash sab stall, as they are generally not splashable at all, but instead we should insist that both players should have to play well. That's really what this suspect is about - to try and take away the most common and effective way that players can use to hop around having to play well, to ensure that bad matchups have a better chance of being outplayed, and to set about a future tiering policy that tackles the issue of matchup based teams better.

Just as a last addition, I should mention that while there are teams which are unarguably easy to play, running about on the ladder, this is very different from a team that specifically aims to take away your opponent's options, and make their good plays count for nothing.
I think this would be a good time to say (to everyone) that i'm sorry, then. As far as I was aware, I was just posting my two sense on the matter - and seeing the repetitive logic of some of the pro-banners just kind of rubbed me the wrong way.

I've like a lot of the anti-ban arguments, not because I don't want it banned (well, I don't want it banned... but still) - but because they're worded better then I ever could word an argument on this. None of us are perfect, and as much as that may be obvious - let's make that clear.
 
OK, I've been really passive in OU and only recently tried getting into it, however I don't plan on laddering due to Pokémon stuff outside of Smogon. I may be kinda new, but here's my TL;DR before I get into the meat and potatoes: SABLENITE SHOULD BE BANNED but not for the main reason given in the OP.

  • My Interpretation of the OP reasoning: We like hazards! Magic Bounce disallows hazards! We don't like Magic Bounce!
OK, whilst this is a part of Sableye, hazards aren't a big problem with Sableye. TBH, when dealing with Stall, I really don't see how hazards really impact it that much, sure there's a lot of switching, but 4+ Mons on your average stall team have recovery. They are bulky and reliably recover health, meaning the only thing you are really hurting is their 1 or 2 offensive mons. This is frankly the least useful point to bring up, so I have no idea why it's your main focus.
  • Unhealthy Issue 1: Why Magic Bounce actually makes Sableye great.
So, what else does Magic Bounce block? A lot of things, but 2 main ones: Taunt and Toxic. These moves would make Sableye much more manageable, however, Magic Bounce stops these moves that would cripple Sableye. Toxic would reduce it's longevity significantly, and would put it on a timer, slowly taking more and more damage. This is especially damaging if either the Chansey is dead or doesn't have Heal Bell. The other is Taunt, the global StallBreaker, bar Sableye of course. Taunt forces Stall to adjust, play around not being able to just sit there, just as offense and balance teams have to change up how they would usually play VS Stall. Having a mon that doesn't care about Taunt really hurts this dynamic. This is unhealthy as it simply gives the stall player a comfort zone they don't have to leave.
  • 1.5: Prankster is great Ability for a Pre-Mega Forme.
Prankster Sableye is already a viable mon. With turn order mechanics, you get 1 turn of having a Mega Sableye with Prankster AND Magic Bounce. This allows Sab to do something, whether it be Recover, WoW, CM, Toxic, Taunt, Etc. This is why I've never understood FO Sableye. You have a turn for a fast Recover, cripple a physical attacker to take half damage, prevent an opponent's set-up or recovery, boost Sab's lower SpDef and offence. Not only is Sableye the only bulky Bouncer, it is the only bulky Prankster even if it only be for a turn.(bar Klefki which doesn't have Recovery.) This is the only Mega where BOTH it's Pre-Mega Ability and Mega Ability exponentially help it.
  • 2: It has an extraordinary typing to complement stall.
Let's just have a look at the Dark/Ghost Typing for a second. 1 Weakness to Fairy, 1 Minor resistance to Poison and 3 Great Immunities, Normal, Fighting and Psychic. (The one way Sableye is healthy is that it stops Medicham from murdering everyone's families) These are great, not really for itself, but for Stall in general. Firstly, its immunities, lets see, what other absurdly bulky mon on stall only has one weakness? Oh yeah, that blob thing with an egg. There a fighting type coming your way not called Lopunny? Sableye! These 2 are quite hard to break with only really Lopunny, Zard X, Azumarill and Gardevoir doing the job well. The Psychic immunity also helps a little, especially on Amoonguss teams. Now that Fairy weakness, hmm, well, again, Amoonguss is here to help, along with Skarmory! Whilst this isn't really a broken aspect, it certainly makes stall even harder to deal with.
  • 3: It has a great movepool for its role.
Let's have a look shall we. Will-O-Wisp, allows it to cripple physical attackers which don't OHKO it or aren't fire type. Chansey loves this especially. Recover allows this wall to stay around for ages. Knock Off, deals a decent piece of damage and weakens the impact of the victim in attempting to beat stall. Foul Play, a Knock Off without the utility but with lots more damage without having to waste EVs in Atk. Calm Mind, allows it to be a set-up sweeper and boost its lower SpDef. There are also other moves Sableye can utilise well like Toxic and Taunt. Again, this fills a roles that Stall likes, whether it be crippling an opponent, setting up and sweeping, or just removing and item or getting off damage. And again, whilst this aspect itself isn't broken, it makes Stall, again, even harder to deal with.

  • Conclusion:BAN SABLNITE
So, for the reasons above, bolstered by the amazing stat distribution and small list of easily worn down counters, I believe that Sablenite should be banned. Whilst none of these aspect are broken alone, (I mean, look at Spiritomb) when all of these are put in combination, especially on a Stall team which has a switchin to almost everything. That's just my view on things though, it's up to everyone's on views to decide which way to vote.
 

Aberforth

Californium is PoMMan now.
is a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
I find it very odd that you see Sableye as a benign presence, but Baton Pass as an obnoxious mess. I'll use Baton Pass as a substitute to show why I think Sab stall + BP are very comparable. Personally I see Sab stall as a greater problem, but anyway:

Baton Pass, in its current state, can be beaten by things which are common in the ORAS OU tier, and that you don't need to make major changes to your team in order to operate. For example, Mega Heracross can break through Scolipede's sub and KO it with Rock Blast, the combination of roar/whirlwind + Mega Metagross beats any variant of baton pass right now. Simply by slapping taunt onto Thundurus can you shut down Scoli before it gets a chance to BP, and this has been true ever since BP chains first made their appearance in XY. Furthermore, Espeon is far from unstoppable even when it gets passed to, losing to TTar, or anything that can hit it hard for physical super effective damage, which becomes easier now that Scolipede can't pass defence boosts. But the options to deal with BP aren't just exclusive to offensive builds, stall has an option too in running haze on Quagsire, which granted, isn't ideal, but gives up 1 slot on 1 pokemon to deal with a whole playstyle way better.

Now, based on baton pass in its current state seeing little tour use, having common counters in OU, the opposing player being in a noticeably better position by playing carefully around scolipede than when they don't, I put forward, that Baton Pass, after the nerfs, is a perfectly healthy part of OU.

Now of course, there's a flaw in the above logic, which is that while it's possible to beat the current state of baton pass, using things which are totally accessible in OU, that doesn't change the fact that it is ridiculously easy to win with it. The very same logic applies with Sableye, only doubly so because if you can stop the keystone of Baton Pass, Scolipede, from doing its work, then you can beat it, ie they have to use Scolipede to get fast boosts, but Sab stall only needs to go into Sab when they deem it beneficial to do so.

And that's the main difference between something that puts big pressure on building in a bad way, like BP + Sab stall, and something that's centralising in a good way, like GSC Snorlax, which you mentioned during your conversation with ABR. When I add Snorlax to a GSC team, I'm not looking to subtract skill from the game, but merely optimise my team to perform well, increasing the range and effectiveness of good plays I can make in a match. When I build Sab stall/BP, I am quite specifically looking from the very start to not give the opponent a fair chance to fight back, ie I'm looking to deduct skill from the game. Just a note here that I have actually spammed Sab stall on the ladder before to test whether I really was right in thinking it lacked skill, and I saw from the results that I had been correct.
I think there is a big difference between BP and Sableye, not counting the fact that BP's answers are far less splashable than Sableye-team answers, and that being that the things that are used to deal with BP are exactly what you say the things to deal with Sableye are, completely matchup based and without room to outplay without those things. As I have said repeatedly, not only do I feel the ways of getting around Sableye are much more common then the ways of getting around BP, but they are also based on how well you then proceed to use these things. Having the SD Ground doesn't do you any good if you decide to lead off with it and let it get burned turn 1. You need to play well in order to put yourself in the position to finish the execution of your offence, which means that if you win or lose vs stall, it is down to your own plays. I'll also say that stall teams are teams I dont think are good, because they put themselves in a position where they will end up not having the ability to win on their own strengths, only by the weakness of your opponent. Fortunately for stall teams, a lot of people either aren't using good enough teams, or are not good enough to use the teams that are good enough effectively. Whereas BP, aside from being pointlessly restricted as opposed to banned already (a large part as to why I feel it should be outright banned) does not get beaten by skill, only by matchup. You have that bandtar + whirlwind user or you lose. Sableye on the other hand, does have room to be outplayed, by use of things like status spam (mostly scald) to force uses of heal bell such that your cm water can win late game, using pivots to rack up chip damage so that you can break through the defensive walls or set your rocks on a weakened Sableye, use of strong wallbreakers that are difficult to switch in to, even for the stall team, ext.

Now there is no one set I can point to that will enable you to win vs all stall teams. Just like there's no one set I can point to that will let you beat any offence team you come across. Playing vs stall now requires skill in order to succeed at, rather than bringing 5 mons and a single Anti-Stall mon that can be dealt with by the common stall teams. Stall has adapted to offence by use of things like Double Defog, Dugtrio and Weavile, and thus Offence can now adapt back such that they are no longer reliant on things that do not work in order to win games. If someone is using a team that they directly imported from the BW2 Team Archive, we'd tell them the team is outdated and no longer capable of winning the majority of it's games. It's the same principle here.

There's also the key factor, that now there's plenty more threats to deal with in OU, so teams which aim to create matchup issues will grow increasingly effective, and therefore we must be more diligent in stopping these strategies. Incidentally, NP Thundurus, SubCM Keldeo, and Vinc Cune aren't the most reliable of breakers, and most stall teams are much better prepared for Manaphy than they once were. But the point I really need people to take away from this is that it's not right to put the onus of building on one player, to have them construct a team basically the ground up to accommodate one of the powerful breakers that can smash sab stall, as they are generally not splashable at all, but instead we should insist that both players should have to play well. That's really what this suspect is about - to try and take away the most common and effective way that players can use to hop around having to play well, to ensure that bad matchups have a better chance of being outplayed, and to set about a future tiering policy that tackles the issue of matchup based teams better.

Just as a last addition, I should mention that while there are teams which are unarguably easy to play, running about on the ladder, this is very different from a team that specifically aims to take away your opponent's options, and make their good plays count for nothing.
However you got the impression that stall is about playing well, it's wrong. Stall is about not losing for as long as possible, and thus hoping your opponent ends up beating himself. Semi-Stalls are excluded from this, given that they will normally actually have a wincon somewhere, however stuff like Tele's stall and ones like that are not based at all in how well the user played, but how well the opponent played. If your goal is to make it so both players have to be playing skillfully, your goal is to remove stall from the tier entirely. Sab-Dug-Zap-Skarm-Clef-Suicune will win exactly as many games on matchup as Altaria-Dug-Zap-Skarm-Clef-Tran. Now that's not to say stall players cannot choke, but that's a sign of them playing poorly or not poorly rather than them playing well. A subtle difference in language, however it means something quite drastically different.

And as for your final point, that's called good teambuilding. Do you actively go around building teams such that they seek to give your opponent as many chances to beat you as possible? No, you build to try and have as good a matchup as possible to as many things as possible. Offence doesn't run around without a method of killing Skarmory, for example.
 

MrAldo

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Actually, I think Im going through an aneurysm after reading Im Rick Astley post... what the hell.

Before I go clinically insane I would like to ask something. Have someone tried Mega Gallade on this non-Mega Sableye ladder? Seems to be notably better, having a much better matchup against the fat psychics that immediately get popular with no Mega Sableye around (Mew, Slowbro, Reuniclus a bit) compared to Mega Medicham and Mega Lopunny and some of the few teams I have seen gets dismantled by it very easily. Thats just a first impression.

Also, Ill like to ask if it is good for me to ask this here since this is somewhat related to Mega Sableye in a sense but I will move it to metagame discussion if necessary.
 
My opinion is that M-Sableye should be banned only because it limits the options of stall. I don't think it's healthy for an entire archetype to ALWAYS include one single Pokémon if the player wants the best results. Every other archetype has plenty of options that can be substituted for different, but equal, results. In stall, not running M-Sableye is shooting yourself in the foot. Sure you could run M-Slowbro or M-Diancie, but M-Slowbro doesn't have the amazing ability that M-Sableye has, and M-Diancie doesn't have the amazing bulk that M-Sableye has. You get Magic Bounce AND 125/115 defenses.

TL;DR:

Stall has become unhealthy because of M-Sableye, and banning him would still leave good options for stall players to incorporate into their teams.
 

Ktütverde

I like trains.
is a Tiering Contributoris a former Tournament Circuit Champion
I must mention how most 'noobs' or low level players wouldn't be willing to play passive. Most of them would just be like 'DUHH, I CAN DO X BECAUSE I CAN - DUHH!' without any thought, rhyme or reason (what you refer to as 'braindead' - see Scald/Knock off spam)*. Is using Sab-M easy and/or low risk? Probably. But I HIGHLY doubt most low level/low skill players would have the attention span for stall. Let me put it this way:

<20 turns - a fast match
20-25 turns - around average
25-40 turns - ok, we're getting on a bit now...
>40 turns - very defensive/stall match.

Do you think that players under mid level / 1500 ELO have the attention span for 40+ turns? Doesn't seem like it to me...

*BTW Darkrai/Mega Lucario (say), are braindead for how offensively potent they are. Sab is in this 50/50 suspect test because defensive partners are easy to find (Heatran quad resists Fairy, Sab's only weakness - for one basic example).

EDIT: I know it's not as exaggerated as that - but still...
What i'm saying is, maybe Mega Sableye is an opportunity for newer players to play passively, and feel as though they'd get success with a playstyle they'd otherwise write off as crap.

also



are you now saying Weavile stall is now centralizing/worthy of suspect?
Well you really want to convince me man^^

I myself loved stall for a while and my first goal was to build a fully passive team. I soon realized that I felt pretty bad when playing such stall because I just clicked (while phoning a friend), and when my opponent had a big wallbreaker I had no counter to, I hoped he would misclick. Stall is by definition antimetagame. But it's not like trick room teams that don't always work despite being antimeta. If you follow the current sabskarmblob+regengrass+quagsire you just get a HIGH WINLOSS RATIO without ANY effort. We all know it on the ladder, but maybe that you don't often play on it.

Once a friend of mine said: "I hate branflakes' team. It justs hardwalls the meta, but you just need a togekiss or a swords dance landorus to win." And that's the problem. The pokemons that beat stall are bad versus other playstyles: stall is therefore centralizing. But not "stall alone", but "sableye stall". Breaking stall is always possible with STEALTH ROCK, best move ever. Sableye insanely blocks it and that's not fair, there is no balance anymore between the two batlers, because one brings a team that is able to decently deal with ANY playstyle; the other one only focuses on walling what is current in OU and destroys any hope of winning by switches and predictions because of sableye's magic bounce.

My last argument is this one: I'm fed up of seeing RMT's of great players that say: "THREATLIST: sableye stall. Unless your opponent plays poorely, click X." Even good players can't get rid of a team that is meant to counter them, and that can be used by everybody easily.

You can see that I haven't used the word noobs that hurt you, and I'm definitely not the only one to think this way. I have enjoyed a lot facing semistall spike stacking with my own semistall, that's awesome, you must be wary of your switchings and don't let your mons get swept my a wincon; facing pure hardstall just makes no sense and it's better to forfeit and not to lose time rather than attempting to get an uncertain win versus a team that can't win by itself but needs to face the threats it was built for: a calmmind chandelure 6-0's it, but nobody uses it ofc. A sandstorm offense doesn't lose to a threat it wasn't prepared for, because it isn't prepared to defend: it is ready to impose it's own pressure, like HO, like balance, like semistall.

I needed time to stop using balance like a hardstall and to understand that you can't counter everything: the first thing you must learn in pokemon is to be active, and telling me the opposite is worthless, because that's the most fantastic rule of life everybody should know: you can't control everything, and wanting to do so is an illusion and a fear of your inability to move forwards by yourself through a world where you are just a passerby. The best defense is the attack, and semistall just delays it, but doesn't forsakes, and is on a timer vs spike stacking teams or wOw+taunt users.

Things that make "good stall (stall weak to Taunt and to Hazards)" become broken, like Sableye, must be banned. Have a nice day , confronting other people's opinion has been very instructive!
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
My opinion is that M-Sableye should be banned only because it limits the options of stall. I don't think it's healthy for an entire archetype to ALWAYS include one single Pokémon if the player wants the best results. Every other archetype has plenty of options that can be substituted for different, but equal, results. In stall, not running M-Sableye is shooting yourself in the foot. Sure you could run M-Slowbro or M-Diancie, but M-Slowbro doesn't have the amazing ability that M-Sableye has, and M-Diancie doesn't have the amazing bulk that M-Sableye has. You get Magic Bounce AND 125/115 defenses.

TL;DR:

Stall has become unhealthy because of M-Sableye, and banning him would still leave good options for stall players to incorporate into their teams.
eh... sort of? you only have 50 HP to play with. That, and saying that Sab-M is on 100% of stall when it's overall usage is less then 10% would indicate that Stall is the least common playstyle, by your logic.

It kind of goes back to the thing I mentioned about matchup experience I mentioned earlier.
 

Ktütverde

I like trains.
is a Tiering Contributoris a former Tournament Circuit Champion
No one is entitled to rocks. If Mega Sableye is on the other team, you have to take into account that your opponent could switch it in and bounce them back. Just like every other move in the game, you have to risk predictions and losing momentum.


I honestly don't know if you've ever played stall before. There's some crazy wallbreakers out there that make life hell for stall players, and six slots is not enough to easily check or counter all of them. Stall has to make good predictions too, especially around those wallbreakers.


Stall is basically trying not to lose for the longest time. It's still playing. Just because you don't enjoy a particular playstyle doesn't mean that others don't. That's why it's still alive.


What exactly do you mean by "your own style? Because I can come up with a bunch of teams that are unique, but they all fall under the blankets of "offense" or "balance." And stall (including that with Sableye) is far from zero-risk; it has to make predictions too. Also, only offensive players have "real battle spirit?" So only offensive players should exist or whatever the heck that statement even means?

We're not suspecting stall here; we're suspecting Mega Sableye. Keep your head on straight when you go about things, just because you don't agree with a particular playstyle doesn't mean that you can go about bad-mouthing everyone who uses it.

Maybe that I didn't say clearly that when I use "Stall" in those posts, it means "sableye stall" obviously (for me at least).
I like stall and I just hate what it has become.

But you don't make difference between "offensive" and "active", teams must be active, even if it's semistall, via using spikes, or burning or whatever.
Nowadays, stall battles, thanks to sableye, are PP STALL, ultimately passive. Because if there are no rocks, there is no need to waste recovers after switching. Will-o-wisp stallbreak is dead, and you can't even knock off sableye. Do you only know how people lose vs a sableye stall team? They forfeit, because only one end is possible, and it sometimes takes an hour to reach it.

I'm not trying to offend anybody, and I hope you understand that I'm not pro-stallban, but pro-sableyestallban. Writing so much is tiring, and I've done it to be active in defending the opinion of many people. Have a nice day!
 
eh... sort of? you only have 50 HP to play with. That, and saying that Sab-M is on 100% of stall when it's overall usage is less then 10% would indicate that Stall is the least common playstyle, by your logic.

It kind of goes back to the thing I mentioned about matchup experience I mentioned earlier.
You say like its easy to take msab with another prepared stall team, when in a realistic situation sabstall will always have the advantage.

Stall vs stall is something like lose pp of heal bell and die slowly

Why should people play with stall? Most of stall player like to build their own team, but today they have to play with a generic team because its the only that works.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
Well you really want to convince me man^^

I myself loved stall for a while and my first goal was to build a fully passive team. I soon realized that I felt pretty bad when playing such stall because I just clicked (while phoning a friend), and when my opponent had a big wallbreaker I had no counter to, I hoped he would misclick. Stall is by definition antimetagame. But it's not like trick room teams that don't always work despite being antimeta. If you follow the current sabskarmblob+regengrass+quagsire you just get a HIGH WINLOSS RATIO without ANY effort. We all know it on the ladder, but maybe that you don't often play on it.

Once a friend of mine said: "I hate branflakes' team. It justs hardwalls the meta, but you just need a togekiss or a swords dance landorus to win." And that's the problem. The pokemons that beat stall are bad versus other playstyles: stall is therefore centralizing. But not "stall alone", but "sableye stall". Breaking stall is always possible with STEALTH ROCK, best move ever. Sableye insanely blocks it and that's not fair, there is no balance anymore between the two batlers, because one brings a team that is able to decently deal with ANY playstyle; the other one only focuses on walling what is current in OU and destroys any hope of winning by switches and predictions because of sableye's magic bounce.

My last argument is this one: I'm fed up of seeing RMT's of great players that say: "THREATLIST: sableye stall. Unless your opponent plays poorely, click X." Even good players can't get rid of a team that is meant to counter them, and that can be used by everybody easily.

You can see that I haven't used the word noobs that hurt you, and I'm definitely not the only one to think this way. I have enjoyed a lot facing semistall spike stacking with my own semistall, that's awesome, you must be wary of your switchings and don't let your mons get swept my a wincon; facing pure hardstall just makes no sense and it's better to forfeit and not to lose time rather than attempting to get an uncertain win versus a team that can't win by itself but needs to face the threats it was built for: a calmmind chandelure 6-0's it, but nobody uses it ofc. A sandstorm offense doesn't lose to a threat it wasn't prepared for, because it isn't prepared to defend: it is ready to impose it's own pressure, like HO, like balance, like semistall.

I needed time to stop using balance like a hardstall and to understand that you can't counter everything: the first thing you must learn in pokemon is to be active, and telling me the opposite is worthless, because that's the most fantastic rule of life everybody should know: you can't control everything, and wanting to do so is an illusion and a fear of your inability to move forwards by yourself through a world where you are just a passerby. The best defense is the attack, and semistall just delays it, but doesn't forsakes, and is on a timer vs spike stacking teams or wOw+taunt users.

Things that make "good stall (stall weak to Taunt and to Hazards)" become broken, like Sableye, must be banned. Have a nice day , confronting other people's opinion has been very instructive!
I'm not hurt by the word 'noobs' - and even if you had used it, I wouldn't be hurt.

With that - the point I should have made clear in that last reply was that: do you expect Defensive/Stall/Hardstall to win in any less than 16-20 turns? No. And I believe this is something you indirectly addressed here:

facing pure hardstall just makes no sense and it's better to forfeit and not to lose time rather than attempting to get an uncertain win versus a team that can't win by itself but needs to face the threats it was built for: a calmmind chandelure 6-0's it, but nobody uses it ofc. A sandstorm offense doesn't lose to a threat it wasn't prepared for, because it isn't prepared to defend: it is ready to impose it's own pressure, like HO, like balance, like semistall.
Also - I wasn't trying to 'confront your opinion'. It was just an observation I had that I wanted to put forward. Sorry.

You say like its easy to take msab with another prepared stall team, when in a realistic situation sabstall will always have the advantage.

Stall vs stall is something like lose pp of heal bell and die slowly

Why should people play with stall? Most of stall player like to build their own team, but today they have to play with a generic team because its the only that works.
I only mentioned stall in the context of your opponent using Mega Sableye, if at all. Did I say anything about Stall vs Stall directly? No.

Thus, you beat stall by playing reactive (if you're using balance/hyper offense), and preserving wallbreakers/stallbreakers you have.
I get why you say that Sabstall vs Other Stall ends up with Sabstall winning, though...
 
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I only mentioned stall in the context of your opponent using Mega Sableye, if at all. Did I say anything about Stall vs Stall directly? No.

Thus, you beat stall by playing reactive (if you're using balance/hyper offense), and preserving wallbreakers/stallbreakers you have.
I get why you say that Sabstall vs Other Stall ends up with Sabstall winning, though...
Maybe Because you have quoted a guy that was talking about stall vs sabstall?
So if he was talking about it - and thanks God, someone who understand me- i was sure you was doing the same.

Bring a stallbreaker that works for your team Vincune, pressure zapdos, clef, CM bro, stormtran, etc. You can tech against sab stall. Now, this tech may not beat every sab stall (see storm tran), but it's not impossible by any stretch for non sab stall to beat sab stall.
not
Works because msab has teammates~
Heatran dies to dugtrio
Stup cm sweepers dies to amonguss2
My pp of healbell will end quickly..
 
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I am assuming here that #1 sums up the reason people wants to ban Sableye so I will build my rebuttal base on it.

No Ban

In essence, my main concern is that this would hurt the power level of the Stall archetype. Normally, the power level should not dominate our discussion. It is a simple reality that we can not have a perfectly balanced meta given the tools we have. Yet this case is a bit different.

A lot of the pro-ban arguments is based upon one implicit condition, that is, one can almost always expect to see a Sableye on a Stall. Yet, it is undisputed that Sableye is nowhere close to overpowered, and people just keep refusing to look at the other options available. What does it imply? Well, this just means that all other alternatives simply sucks and cannot compete against Sableye. This is not the case for the other archetypes, take away Metagross and we still have Pinsir, take away Diancie and we still have Gardevoir. While for Stall, you only have Sableye. When you take away something from the archetype, ofc you are going to hurt them. But for Sableye, having it removed from the meta not hurts Stall, it hurts Stall dearly.

It is pretty obvious right now that GF is not the biggest fan of the Stall archetype. Yet for the better or worse, mostly better because it is the archetype I like, we as a community has decided that Stall is a must-have for a meta to be considered healthy, and we have made many, many, Stall-biased banning decisions to achieve this.

With a ban decision, we are hitting the stall archetype, and we are hitting it hard because Sableye is literally irreplaceable.

The consequence is, either we have to accept the fact that Stall may very well just become unplayable, or we have to take follow up measures to ensure that the archetype does not just die because of our decision. I hope, and I assume, that we are going to take the latter path.

This would open a hell of a Pandora's box. To balance the Stall that just becomes so weak all of a sudden. How many stall breakers do we have to take into account? How many more offensive pokemon do we have to ban because it now utterly breaks the freshly weakend Stall archetype? For example, Mega Medi is a pretty balanced pokemon right now. If Sableye is gone how much better its matchup against Stall would than becomes? I am pretty sure we will have to ban it rather quickly afterward. Many of old suspects that did not end up with a ban should probably be reaccessed because there is a fresh new argument that they will destroy stall teams.

I think people are really misunderstanding the role Megaeye plays in the Stall archetype. Megaeye does not phrase out its competitors because Megaeye is good, it phrases out its competitors because none of them has been good enough at the first place and I still remembers dearly how Stall has been at the blink of distinction in multiple instances since BW. Stall does not get less creative because it has to run Megaeye, Stall gets less creative because the creative options has not been competitive.

Ofc, an argument can be made that Sableeye has great matchup against other stalls which kinda creates a negative feedback for other defensive options. However, a look at the viability ranking should quickly reveal that Megaeye is the only defensive mega that scores a rank of A- or above, and I don't see that changing with Megaeye leaving the meta.
 
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I am assuming here that #1 sums up the reason people wants to ban Sableye so I will build my rebuttal base on it.

No Ban

In essence, my main concern is that this would hurt the power level of the Stall archetype. Normally, the power level should not dominate our discussion. It is a simple reality that we can not have a perfectly balanced meta given the tools we have. Yet this case is a bit different.

A lot of the pro-ban arguments is based upon one implicit condition, that is, one can almost always expect to see a Sableye on a Stall. Yet, it is undisputed that Sableye is nowhere close to overpowered, and people just keep refusing to look at the other options available. What does it imply? Well, this just means that all other alternatives simply sucks and cannot compete against Sableye. This is not the case for the other archetypes, take away Metagross and we still have Pinsir, take away Diancie and we still have Gardevoir. While for Stall, you only have Sableye. When you take away something from the archetype, ofc you are going to hurt them. But for Sableye, having it removed from the meta not hurts Stall, it hurts Stall dearly.

It is pretty obvious right now that GF is not the biggest fan of the Stall archetype. Yet for the better or worse, mostly better because it is the archetype I like, we as a community has decided that Stall is a must-have for a meta to be considered healthy, and we have made many, many, Stall-biased banning decisions to achieve this.

With a ban decision, we are hitting the stall archetype, and we are hitting it hard because Sableye is literally irreplaceable.

The consequence is, either we have to accept the fact that Stall may very well just become unplayable, or we have to take follow up measures to ensure that the archetype does not just die because of our decision. I hope, and I assume, that we are going to take the latter path.

This would open a hell of a Pandora's box. To balance the Stall that just becomes so weak all of a sudden. How many stall breakers do we have to take into account? How many more offensive pokemon do we have to ban because it now utterly breaks the freshly weakend Stall archetype? For example, Mega Medi is a pretty balanced pokemon right now. If Sableye is gone how much better its matchup against Stall would than becomes? I am pretty sure we will have to ban it rather quickly afterward. Many of old suspects that did not end up with a ban should probably be reaccessed because there is a fresh new argument that they will destroy stall teams.

I think people are really misunderstanding the role Megaeye plays in the Stall archetype. Megaeye does not phrase out its competitors because Megaeye is good, it phrases out its competitors because none of them has been good enough at the first place and I still remembers dearly how Stall has been at the blink of distinction in multiple instances since BW. Stall does not get less creative because it has to run Megaeye, Stall gets less creative because the creative options has not been competitive.

Ofc, an argument can be made that Sableeye has great matchup against other stalls which kinda creates a negative feedback for other defensive options. However, a look at the viability ranking should quickly reveal that Megaeye is the only defensive mega that scores a rank of A- or above, and I don't see that changing with Megaeye leaving the meta.
I think youre wrong when you say things like "remove sab from meta will hurt stall" because msab is a huge problem for stall itself.
Ban msab will just hurt msab stall.
But we still have mvenu, maltaria, mscizor, mslowbro.. but i understand. The easy way is choose a pokemon that can handle with almost any stall pokemon.
 
I am assuming here that #1 sums up the reason people wants to ban Sableye so I will build my rebuttal base on it.

No Ban

In essence, my main concern is that this would hurt the power level of the Stall archetype. Normally, the power level should not dominate our discussion. It is a simple reality that we can not have a perfectly balanced meta given the tools we have. Yet this case is a bit different.

A lot of the pro-ban arguments is based upon one implicit condition, that is, one can almost always expect to see a Sableye on a Stall. Yet, it is undisputed that Sableye is nowhere close to overpowered, and people just keep refusing to look at the other options available. What does it imply? Well, this just means that all other alternatives simply sucks and cannot compete against Sableye. This is not the case for the other archetypes, take away Metagross and we still have Pinsir, take away Diancie and we still have Gardevoir. While for Stall, you only have Sableye. When you take away something from the archetype, ofc you are going to hurt them. But for Sableye, having it removed from the meta not hurts Stall, it hurts Stall dearly.

It is pretty obvious right now that GF is not the biggest fan of the Stall archetype. Yet for the better or worse, mostly better because it is the archetype I like, we as a community has decided that Stall is a must-have for a meta to be considered healthy, and we have made many, many, Stall-biased banning decisions to achieve this.

With a ban decision, we are hitting the stall archetype, and we are hitting it hard because Sableye is literally irreplaceable.
Your argument is a flipped version of "we can't ban this because it keeps X, Y and Z in check". In both cases, the no-ban argument is that the Pokemon in question is too vital to ban.

Nothing is too vital to ban.
 

Martin

gamer boy
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Moderator
I am assuming here that #1 sums up the reason people wants to ban Sableye so I will build my rebuttal base on it.

No Ban

In essence, my main concern is that this would hurt the power level of the Stall archetype. Normally, the power level should not dominate our discussion. It is a simple reality that we can not have a perfectly balanced meta given the tools we have. Yet this case is a bit different.

A lot of the pro-ban arguments is based upon one implicit condition, that is, one can almost always expect to see a Sableye on a Stall. Yet, it is undisputed that Sableye is nowhere close to overpowered, and people just keep refusing to look at the other options available. What does it imply? Well, this just means that all other alternatives simply sucks and cannot compete against Sableye. This is not the case for the other archetypes, take away Metagross and we still have Pinsir, take away Diancie and we still have Gardevoir. While for Stall, you only have Sableye. When you take away something from the archetype, ofc you are going to hurt them. But for Sableye, having it removed from the meta not hurts Stall, it hurts Stall dearly.

It is pretty obvious right now that GF is not the biggest fan of the Stall archetype. Yet for the better or worse, mostly better because it is the archetype I like, we as a community has decided that Stall is a must-have for a meta to be considered healthy, and we have made many, many, Stall-biased banning decisions to achieve this.

With a ban decision, we are hitting the stall archetype, and we are hitting it hard because Sableye is literally irreplaceable.

The consequence is, either we have to accept the fact that Stall may very well just become unplayable, or we have to take follow up measures to ensure that the archetype does not just die because of our decision. I hope, and I assume, that we are going to take the latter path.

This would open a hell of a Pandora's box. To balance the Stall that just becomes so weak all of a sudden. How many stall breakers do we have to take into account? How many more offensive pokemon do we have to ban because it now utterly breaks the freshly weakend Stall archetype? For example, Mega Medi is a pretty balanced pokemon right now. If Sableye is gone how much better its matchup against Stall would than becomes? I am pretty sure we will have to ban it rather quickly afterward. Many of old suspects that did not end up with a ban should probably be reaccessed because there is a fresh new argument that they will destroy stall teams.

I think people are really misunderstanding the role Megaeye plays in the Stall archetype. Megaeye does not phrase out its competitors because Megaeye is good, it phrases out its competitors because none of them has been good enough at the first place and I still remembers dearly how Stall has been at the blink of distinction in multiple instances since BW. Stall does not get less creative because it has to run Megaeye, Stall gets less creative because the creative options has not been competitive.

Ofc, an argument can be made that Sableeye has great matchup against other stalls which kinda creates a negative feedback for other defensive options. However, a look at the viability ranking should quickly reveal that Megaeye is the only defensive mega that scores a rank of A- or above, and I don't see that changing with Megaeye leaving the meta.
Clearly you've not even bothered to try and use stall on the suspect ladder because this statement is just flat-out wrong. Stall wouldn't necessarily get worse because what banning Mega Sableye does is that it removes one of the biggest constrictions to the variety of viable stall builds by not only opening up a mega slot, but also by removing the issue of a stall vs. stall matchup with one non-Sab stall an uphill battle for the non-Sab stall. This is really nice for the viability of it as an archetype, and without it there there is a wider range of usable types of stall which simply is not the case atm; currently you have to actively search for reasons to not use Mega Sableye at the moment for precisely this reason, and in a non-Sab metagame things like MVenu stall, MBro stall, Zard X stall, MLati stall, MAlt stall and a number of other builds become accessibly viable (i.e. simple for people not called ABR to build); hell, even Mega Aggron/Steelix stall like that MLix stall with at least two E ranks (if not more) ben gay used a few months back in a tour game (forgive me if I'm misremembering who used it btw) as an attempt to counterstyle have the potential to become at least somewhat usable in the ladder meta without Mega Sableye if people can be asked to put in the time to build one.

Furthermore, by removing it it's not even like its impossible to cover the breakers that Sab covers, and this is before you consider that "broken/unhealthy checks broken" is such a fucking awful argument to the point that I just can't take the entire "Pandora's box" section of your post seriously. At all. Using the Mega Medicham example from your post, defensive stops that can be used to cover it in a non-Sab metagame include Mew, Coffagrigus, Cresselia, Reuniclus and Mega Slowbro. If something does turn out to be broken without Mega Sableye then we should ban that regardless of how many suspect stages we need to go through in order to do so after ORAS "ends" (not a good word, because either way it will still be played in tour and as such people will probably moan about something eventually), and we absolutely shouldn't keep it if the aim is to stop said Pokémon from being broken. That defeats the entire purpose of banning stuff for fuck sake.
 

Ktütverde

I like trains.
is a Tiering Contributoris a former Tournament Circuit Champion
currently you have to actively search for reasons to not use Mega Sableye at the moment
This is exactly THE ban argument, that's called centralization too. If some of you are anti-ban, you should read martin's arguments, because it really raises the issue and makes it clear !

Stall does not get less creative because it has to run Megaeye, Stall gets less creative because the creative options has not been competitive.
And isn't that the problem? When you build offense, you can use whatever you want, same with balance. If there is no creativity, that's again centralization. I'm not a good analysts, but I know that it's a really good reason to ban a pokemon.... If you have no choice but to use Sableye to be effective, that's pretty sad and anti-creative.
We can see everyday new, cool, and effective teams, but stall teams are now all the same: sab-chansey-unaware, without sableye you would have to use other mons to keep the needed synergy, contrary to now where this core is insane and handles so many things. The weavile stall proved that you can do a team in 5 mons (you can actually change the weavile and put a luvdisc or whatever like many people did), that's not normal, it shows that sableye does too much roles at the same time and is therefore broken.
Good night (if you live in Europe) !
 
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LucarioOfLegends

Master Procraster
is a CAP Contributor
For my argument, I would like to begin by quoting the Smogon Strategy Dex itself.

"Magic Bounce enables Mega Sableye to act as an excellent stallbreaker, entry hazard bouncer, status absorber, and universal stop to both Taunt users and defensive Pokemon. This makes it a true staple on stall teams."

I think the words "true staple" hammer out the argument why Mega-Sableye should be banned. If the Strategy Dex is willing to not the predictability and unrigid form that has occured due to Mega-Sableye going unchecked for so long, then that is a serious problem. Now the problem isn't that Magic Bounce is an overpowered ability on Mega-Sableye (well it slightly is), but the fact that it limits creativity with teams and makes people have "How will I counter Mega-Sableye?" as one of their first thoughts when creating a stall team. It also doesn't have as many surefire counters as other pokemon, and is a counter to a lot of Pokemon that could theoretically flourish in the tier. Special mention goes to physical sweepers, as they don't get the benefit of physical Fairy coverage, and who get burned with only a few notable exceptions.
 
Since the conversation as it is now is pretty garbage, I want to highjack this for a while and maybe generate something more interesting.

I think I have close to 100 games on the new ladder across multiple alts (best one ended up 24/7 so I just quit... I have college work I've neglected for this and these reqs can't steal any more time). Anyways, the meta in general has been really healthy. I know a lot of time it's just the 'newness' but I've already seen multiple signs that this new meta is far more enjoyable.

First off, I think I've seen three prevailing stall archtypes. Malt/Quag cores, that Reun/Venu-M team and then variants TFL was using in the smog tour earlier with Zardx. Outside the fact that I haven't seen a MLati stall, this is mainly what I expected would happen. Dragon megas are excellent for stall due to their starter resist combination, and each have a wonderful second typing which really gives them a defensive niche. Personally, I've loved the defensive M-Alt set ABR suggested to me.

As for why each are popular, I think it's as follows:
  • Mega Altaria is probably the best typed of the current Stall Megas. Currently it is also the best wincon with DD or CG/DD. Quagsire has a really good pairing with it for Scizor. Counters both Zards, can take Keldeo. Really, as a stall wincon, I don't think there's anything better.
  • ZardX is the mega that seems to enable (or require) a non-chansey cleric. Require perhaps because of Dugtrio, enable perhaps because it is so reliable vs ZardY and good vs Thundurus-i.
  • Latias-M, which I haven't seen extensively, gives incredible versatility to your team's special walls as she can take Thundy, Torn, ZardY, Keldeo and a few other special issues rather easily. Her sets range from wincon to Twave wall to RT. Does need some help with Gard/Latios. Doublade is perfect, Clefable works. Weavile's an amazing partner.
  • All the above draw in heatran. ZardX/Lati draw attracts TTar, MAlt attracts Magnezone. Dugtrio is normally paired with them.
  • Venusaur is the outside oddity. Yeah we know he's good and what he does, but it's probably again because Heatran has to come in on this guy and TTar loves cutting the healing of Synth and dies to trio. Outside that, it's also a wonderful block to Clefable, counters Keldeo. The Clef,TTar and Heatran combo are all on that shortlist of Reun blocks to that particular set.
As you can probably tell by the mention of all megas, reuniculus and such, there's a lot of mons currently viable into Stall's arsenal. Mew/Cress/Doublade/Reun/(Slowbro) should probably be on every build for Medi-M. I've been using Tentacruel as a second hazard clearer and keldeo/fable combo check (discount venu sorta) and found him incredibly useful. Gliscor w/SD has been used multiple times as a stallbreaker/Clefable counter. Suicune, which was a trend during the time leading to this suspect, is being used heavily (or Vaporeon if you're TFL). Alomomola is a good cleric again because it isn't always fucking up toxic on Sable and can actually beat dugtrasho. Double hazard clear, spikes and taunt breakers on stall are all available, giving that variety to the build. Also one would be amiss to not mention whatever the fuck FLCL is running with 6 pressure mons...

Secondly, there's a lot of bird spam and hyper offense in general. I think this is more Azelf has been enabled more than anything else. Medicham-M isn't completely dominate, just very solid. Alakazam-M seems to be getting a lot of play and Terrakion is getting hella annoying. I'm guessing we'll soon see Gengar rise to shove down the Jellicent sets we're seeing. It's mostly an answer to Starmie/Excadrill still being the main hazard clearers but sable's gone so the next ghost up.

Spikes haven't shown to be the end-all in the absence of sable. Ferro carries it a bit more often, and I don't exactly forgo spikes on skarm automatically for taunt. Klefki is kinda creeping around but I don't see him enough to really say he's there spiking up a storm. I think it's a conflict with Azelf's suicide leading since klefki can suicide lead too, but can't rock. I've seen chesnaught like twice, both times running spikes/spiky shield stall sets. But yeah it's mostly ferro still. Almost no toxic spikes, too.

Lastly, the fact that I even played about 100 battles says something to me. Yeah I wasted way too much time but I haven't done this many battles in a week since probably the start of XY.

So yeah, I'd like a bit more discussion about opinions with Suspect ladder to this ladder instead of this nonsensical garbage that has infested the last few pages.
 
Since the conversation as it is now is pretty garbage, I want to highjack this for a while and maybe generate something more interesting.

I think I have close to 100 games on the new ladder across multiple alts (best one ended up 24/7 so I just quit... I have college work I've neglected for this and these reqs can't steal any more time). Anyways, the meta in general has been really healthy. I know a lot of time it's just the 'newness' but I've already seen multiple signs that this new meta is far more enjoyable.

First off, I think I've seen three prevailing stall archtypes. Malt/Quag cores, that Reun/Venu-M team and then variants TFL was using in the smog tour earlier with Zardx. Outside the fact that I haven't seen a MLati stall, this is mainly what I expected would happen. Dragon megas are excellent for stall due to their starter resist combination, and each have a wonderful second typing which really gives them a defensive niche. Personally, I've loved the defensive M-Alt set ABR suggested to me.

As for why each are popular, I think it's as follows:
  • Mega Altaria is probably the best typed of the current Stall Megas. Currently it is also the best wincon with DD or CG/DD. Quagsire has a really good pairing with it for Scizor. Counters both Zards, can take Keldeo. Really, as a stall wincon, I don't think there's anything better.
  • ZardX is the mega that seems to enable (or require) a non-chansey cleric. Require perhaps because of Dugtrio, enable perhaps because it is so reliable vs ZardY and good vs Thundurus-i.
  • Latias-M, which I haven't seen extensively, gives incredible versatility to your team's special walls as she can take Thundy, Torn, ZardY, Keldeo and a few other special issues rather easily. Her sets range from wincon to Twave wall to RT. Does need some help with Gard/Latios. Doublade is perfect, Clefable works. Weavile's an amazing partner.
  • All the above draw in heatran. ZardX/Lati draw attracts TTar, MAlt attracts Magnezone. Dugtrio is normally paired with them.
  • Venusaur is the outside oddity. Yeah we know he's good and what he does, but it's probably again because Heatran has to come in on this guy and TTar loves cutting the healing of Synth and dies to trio. Outside that, it's also a wonderful block to Clefable, counters Keldeo. The Clef,TTar and Heatran combo are all on that shortlist of Reun blocks to that particular set.
As you can probably tell by the mention of all megas, reuniculus and such, there's a lot of mons currently viable into Stall's arsenal. Mew/Cress/Doublade/Reun/(Slowbro) should probably be on every build for Medi-M. I've been using Tentacruel as a second hazard clearer and keldeo/fable combo check (discount venu sorta) and found him incredibly useful. Gliscor w/SD has been used multiple times as a stallbreaker/Clefable counter. Suicune, which was a trend during the time leading to this suspect, is being used heavily (or Vaporeon if you're TFL). Alomomola is a good cleric again because it isn't always fucking up toxic on Sable and can actually beat dugtrasho. Double hazard clear, spikes and taunt breakers on stall are all available, giving that variety to the build. Also one would be amiss to not mention whatever the fuck FLCL is running with 6 pressure mons...

Secondly, there's a lot of bird spam and hyper offense in general. I think this is more Azelf has been enabled more than anything else. Medicham-M isn't completely dominate, just very solid. Alakazam-M seems to be getting a lot of play and Terrakion is getting hella annoying. I'm guessing we'll soon see Gengar rise to shove down the Jellicent sets we're seeing. It's mostly an answer to Starmie/Excadrill still being the main hazard clearers but sable's gone so the next ghost up.

Spikes haven't shown to be the end-all in the absence of sable. Ferro carries it a bit more often, and I don't exactly forgo spikes on skarm automatically for taunt. Klefki is kinda creeping around but I don't see him enough to really say he's there spiking up a storm. I think it's a conflict with Azelf's suicide leading since klefki can suicide lead too, but can't rock. I've seen chesnaught like twice, both times running spikes/spiky shield stall sets. But yeah it's mostly ferro still. Almost no toxic spikes, too.

Lastly, the fact that I even played about 100 battles says something to me. Yeah I wasted way too much time but I haven't done this many battles in a week since probably the start of XY.

So yeah, I'd like a bit more discussion about opinions with Suspect ladder to this ladder instead of this nonsensical garbage that has infested the last few pages.

If so it would be interesting why none of those stall options showed up in the standard ladder where Sableye exists.

If this comes as a result of Sableye countering all of them than yeah it probably means Sableye deserves a ban but on the basis that it dominates the stall vs stall matchup too hard rather than itself being irreplaceable on Stall teams.

Otherwise, it is probably just players excited by the suspect being active on searching out stall options, causing these options to be over-represented. If so, as the meta on the suspect test develops we may very well start seeing people ditching stall teams all together to climb the ladder more efficiently.
 
I have changed my opinion now. For those of you who think that stall won't be good try out a couple of teams like malt stall. Msab makes stall unfun and matchup reliant. It is in no means broken. This allows generic bulky offenses to beat it with plays. It allows skilled stallbreakers like mew to thrive.
Matchup no longer makes or breaks stall. Stalls like the weavile abr team and the tele team completely rely on matchup to win. There is very less skill involved. Many breakers win from team preview. Sableye stall is so much easier to build and use so that is why people use it.
Try out stall if you do not agree with me. Only after you use stall you will realize how much more fun it is. Please do not quote this and say that breakers beat stall because I understand that. It just ruins the fun of playing with stall in the meta.
Mew has checks and counters. A variety of fires like infernape, charizard mega x, talonflame check mew. Other things like mega Diancie check it. Trappers like weavile get rid of it. Faster strong attackers from semistall or offensive mon +super stall check mew. Mega medicham is also checked by a variety of things like slowbro, mega slowbro, doublade etc.
 
If so it would be interesting why none of those stall options showed up in the standard ladder where Sableye exists.

If this comes as a result of Sableye countering all of them than yeah it probably means Sableye deserves a ban but on the basis that it dominates the stall vs stall matchup too hard rather than itself being irreplaceable on Stall teams.

Otherwise, it is probably just players excited by the suspect being active on searching out stall options, causing these options to be over-represented. If so, as the meta on the suspect test develops we may very well start seeing people ditching stall teams all together to climb the ladder more efficiently.
Sableye doesn't counter any of them, outside maybe Latias. But you're again forgetting what Sable does: Sable will force pressure on your hazard clearers, and ZardX/Malt (first switch) take SE damage from them. Offensive ZardX is actually really good into Sable but defensive can't 2hko, has to deal with quagsire or gets trapped and dies to dugtrio. Yeah that problem exists on the ladder (trio/quag) but importantly Zardx's hazard control is a bit easier. Venusaur just hates burns and honestly there are easier ways to counter Clefable/Keldeo. I think MAltaria on stall allows for him to be used more. Again, the less pressure on the stall team's hazard clear in a stall v stall matchup also allows venu to be in more often, as Venu's often noticed for being worn down easy. Some of these teams (Venu/Reun, I'm near positive) are running defensive Starmie. My Malt team runs Tentacruel. Most still have defog on Skarm or somewhere, but spinners take too much chip damage for too little reward in that sable meta. Yeah Tenta could solo out a sableye, but it costs him nigh everything to do it, trio kills him midway and even in weavile meta, tenta's physical defense is again weak.


Of Moose & Men
No one is explaining how it is Over Centralizing, Broken, or Noncompetitive, which is leading me to believe no one has much of an actual reason for it to go.
Didn't read the first few pages? Both sides have been akin to a comedy show from like page 3 but the reasons were still outlined. It is definitely centralizing to stall. I outlined this in my first post here and have said it multiple times over the months. There's a difference between strategic hazard control and hazard control due to Magic Bounce/Spin blocker in one.

In this meta, we've noted an increase in spikes, a diversifying of stall megas (and no, that's not really newness... these are well-structured teams), and a resurgence of a few offensive mons, particularly Azelf and suicide leads, which has enabled faster teams like bird spam to again be decently viable. So at it's core, it would appear two styles, stall and hyper offense, have key components constricted by Sable as well as an entire hazard option.

Yeah we've stated it's not broken. This thing isn't Lando-i's power or Lucario-M's set diversity/power combination. I'd argue Sable is a hint non-competitive and that's the reason why it's centralizing to stall because outside bending over backwards to not use Sable. And bugger off with that 'stall adapts to any meta' bullshit Skill Swap Cresselia isn't competitive and Double defog has only become slightly viable because zapdos isn't currently complete trash. We've seen iterations of Sable teams that have been completely non-competitive, Goth was banned for it and Wondertrio is probably the most matchup based team I've ever seen.

But mainly centralizing.
 
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