np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 7 - Diamonds [Read post #226] [BANNED]

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When I look at whether or not Mega-Sableye deserves a ban, the first thing I look at is the usage rates. Mega sableye is not common in tournaments, as was noted earlier in the thread. Furthermore, its not that common in OU itself, being 29th in usage rates. From there, I looked at the pokemon with higher usage rates, seeing whether or not they "countered" Sableye. Of the top 20, I'd say around 7, maybe 9 at most have good matchups versus Sableye. I see that as Sableye being not broken or centralizing enough to deserve a ban. If sableye was as auto-win as people make it out to be, it should have a higher usage rate, or a higher rate of pokemon that counter it in use.

Furthermore, the idea that banning sableye will make the tier more varied is flawed. Sure, a sableye ban will let a couple new pokemon into the tier, but that's not additional diversity. If we banned every single OU mon from OU, we'd have a lot more "diversity", according to that logic. When a ban is made, you lose a pokemon. A pokemon that is expressly overcentralizing will add far more pokemon to the tier than Sableye's ban would, in my opinion.

I think that people are hung up on keeping a metagame the same as it was. Naturally, hazards were strong against stall in earlier gens or metagames. But, just like balance got better stallbreakers between gens in Zard Y and medi and the like, stall will get some new tools to combat strategies that once worked against them.
 
This is frankly ridiculous and all you've shown with this post is an inability to read the rest of the thread. While it might be true that SuMo is coming in the next few weeks, the ORAS OU meta will remain playable for long after that, and so it's important that we create a balanced metagame, regardless of how much it will actually be played in the future. The timing of the suspect test shouldn't affect your opinion.

Also, some of your so called "checks" don't actually check Mega Sableye. You mentioned Chansey, for example, but it quite literally can't do anything to Sableye and in return it can knock off it's Eviolite and proceed to cripple it with status. And of course fairies are going to check it, but as others have mentioned, it's not Mega Sableye that's broken by itself, but it's a problem when it's run with enough support. Any team with Mega Sableye on it will usually run at least 1-2 fairy checks.

Ok, fair enough, fair enough. The Chansey example was a bad one, and all the use of fairy types was a little irrational too. Too be fair, however, what I tried to say with chansey was that it can stall for a while, but wasn't a go-to counter. I mean, you can wish protect for a good amount of time, that's all I was thinking. However, all the other mons that were mentioned are indeed counters, including Jirachi, even though it's weak to dark, as well as volcarona, which I forgot to mention. I mean, in total, I counted 7 mons to at least deal with sableye, and none of those are faires.
I will give you this, though, that you're probably right that the ORAS meta will be played in the SuMo era, I was wrong. Thanks!
-0verloud
 
Ok, fair enough, fair enough. The Chansey example was a bad one, and all the use of fairy types was a little irrational too. Too be fair, however, what I tried to say with chansey was that it can stall for a while, but wasn't a go-to counter. I mean, you can wish protect for a good amount of time, that's all I was thinking. However, all the other mons that were mentioned are indeed counters, including Jirachi, even though it's weak to dark, as well as volcarona, which I forgot to mention. I mean, in total, I counted 7 mons to at least deal with sableye, and none of those are faires.
I will give you this, though, that you're probably right that the ORAS meta will be played in the SuMo era, I was wrong. Thanks!
-0verloud
Jirachi isn't a counter... Knock Off does ~60% and Foul Play does up to 90% (to scarf), and if it switches in on a Will-O-Wisp, you'll have to get a minimum of 7 flinches in a row in which time you'll faint as well. And if you're a more defensive variant then chances are Sableye's just gonna heal up on your Wishes and will stall you out or eventually get a crit; not to mention that nearly all Sableye's are paired with Skarmory who is taking nothing from Rachi. Not really relevant to the thread but that needed to be cleared up
 

Sylveon.

Penny saved is still a fucking penny
is a Pre-Contributor
Ok, fair enough, fair enough. The Chansey example was a bad one, and all the use of fairy types was a little irrational too. Too be fair, however, what I tried to say with chansey was that it can stall for a while, but wasn't a go-to counter. I mean, you can wish protect for a good amount of time, that's all I was thinking. However, all the other mons that were mentioned are indeed counters, including Jirachi, even though it's weak to dark, as well as volcarona, which I forgot to mention. I mean, in total, I counted 7 mons to at least deal with sableye, and none of those are faires.
I will give you this, though, that you're probably right that the ORAS meta will be played in the SuMo era, I was wrong. Thanks!
-0verloud
Erm...jirachi is not a counter lol, i mean relying on flinches isn't exactly what I'd call counter and not to say even a single turn when sableye doesn't flinch means either knock off or will-o-wisp which plagues jirachi for the rest of the match while sableye just switches. Yeah, it could be a last ditched effort but in no way a counter.
 
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My only reason saying is that is that a 252 adamant band jirachi has a 22.3% chance to 2HKO a standard Mega Sableye Utility set (EVs: 112 defense, 252 HP, Careful nature), and with 60% chance to flinch, it's almost guaranteed finish that little gremlin up. darksylvion is right, however, I was wrong, and I guess I meant to say that it's more of a last ditch effort if you run into one. I mean, jirachi fits onto a good amount of teams, and if it fits better than a clear counter (mega Gardie) then it might be better to run jirachi then.
Sorry for the confusion
-0verloud
 

Aruyre

Banned deucer.
So I was inspired to create a smogon, due to the suspect going on. As a preface, i'm a ladder player who has peaked top 500 in the past and would like to consider myself a semi competent player.

As for the suspect being conducted, I have problems with the premise behind suspecting and plausibly banning Sabley-Mega. While many have proponents of banning this aformented pokémon agree that this pokémon in itself isn't broken or incompetitte, they say it's matchup based tendencies cause for an "unhealthy" metagame. By banning Sableye-Mega, you practically inferiorize a play style to a certain extent and I don't think we should go around nerfing stall because it's "not a skillful playstyle". Not to mention this playstyle isn't even an auto win and you have a high risk of a loss if you have stall breakers and properly prep for stall. Another qualm I have is, based on your argumentation you want to ban stall as a whole because while Sableye-Mega isn't inherently unhealthy by itself, with team support it becomes unhealthy. I find this argumentation really skewed as I could argue "While Charizard-Y isn't broken by itself, with the trapping abilities of Weavile, to remove its main checks, Latio(a)s and Chansey, Charizard-Y becomes uncompetitive.

Overall, people need to adapt to the meta, not adapt the meta to suit outdated ways of playing and team building.
 
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Ktütverde

I like trains.
is a Tiering Contributoris a former Tournament Circuit Champion
On the one hand sableye allowed stall to become stronger than ever: do you remember when people said in early XY "stall's dead"? Sable isn't a thing when used alone, the real issue is combos like Talonflame+sableye, dugtrio+sableye, skarmory+sableye

On the other hand, sableye totally blocks rocks. One could say: but zapdos does the same. Yes but while it defogs, you can have free set up or switch. But vs sab: you just lose a turn.
People who use stall are noobs excepted some great builders like ABR and Branflakes.
Those who destroy us on the ladder with sab are often brainless players clicking recover and switching. This is not even playing, but waiting till your opponent fails in his endeavour. If you need to use sableye stall in laddering, it just shows that you are unable to face competition with something else. Failing to impose your own style and pressure with well-built cores and giving up for a safer and 0-risk sableye stall, you had better quitting Showdown, because you gave up what's the real battle spirit.

Ban Sab
 

GunGunJ

El patrón del mal
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
On the one hand sableye allowed stall to become stronger than ever: do you remember when people said in early XY "stall's dead"? Sable isn't a thing when used alone, the real issue is combos like Talonflame+sableye, dugtrio+sableye, skarmory+sableye
On the other hand, sableye totally blocks rocks. One could say: but zapdos does the same. Yes but while it defogs, you can have free set up or switch. But vs sab: you just lose a turn.
People who use stall are noobs excepted some great builders like ABR and Branflakes.
Those who destroy us on the ladder with sab are often brainless players clicking recover and switching. This is not even playing, but waiting till your opponent fails in his endeavour. If you need to use sableye stall in laddering, it just shows that you are unable to face competition with something else. Failing to impose your own style and pressure with well-built cores and giving up for a safer and 0-risk sableye stall, you had better quitting Showdown, because you gave up what's the real battle spirit.
Ban Sab
Look man, i am pro-ban too, but that is not true. Stall is a playstyle like Offense, Balance, HO, BO, etc, and if you are using it on the ladder you are not a noob. Look, Who is the Best mega Pokémon for a stall team in OU? Mega Sableye! But oh, i am not going to use it cuz i will be considered a noob, pls man... U sound like the People that dont play using legendary Pokémon. Sableye Is unhealthy, yes, but it doesnt mean that if u use it u are a noob.
 

Ktütverde

I like trains.
is a Tiering Contributoris a former Tournament Circuit Champion
Look man, i am pro-ban too, but that is not true. Stall is a playstyle like Offense, Balance, HO, BO, etc, and if you are using it on the ladder you are not a noob. Look, Who is the Best mega Pokémon for a stall team in OU? Mega Sableye! But oh, i am not going to use it cuz i will be considered a noob, pls man... U sound like the People that dont play using legendary Pokémon. Sableye Is unhealthy, yes, but it doesnt mean that if u use it u are a noob.
What I meant was: noobs use sab, not "using stall turns you into a noob"; Ofc it's a very nice mon, but he's over used and I would like to see good players using it, not only tryhards that want to qualify for OLT or whatever despite not being good without sab. Look at this hype after branflakes RMT, no way to win 2 battles in a row cuz everybody uses it, same with Weavile stall....you can't counter them without using specific stuff or combos, and that's too centralizing. And we all know that poor players that use a good HO team DON'T get good results, because you need to have some skill to win!
 
On the other hand, sableye totally blocks rocks. One could say: but zapdos does the same. Yes but while it defogs, you can have free set up or switch. But vs sab: you just lose a turn.
No one is entitled to rocks. If Mega Sableye is on the other team, you have to take into account that your opponent could switch it in and bounce them back. Just like every other move in the game, you have to risk predictions and losing momentum.

People who use stall are noobs excepted some great builders like ABR and Branflakes. Those who destroy us on the ladder with sab are often brainless players clicking recover and switching.
I honestly don't know if you've ever played stall before. There's some crazy wallbreakers out there that make life hell for stall players, and six slots is not enough to easily check or counter all of them. Stall has to make good predictions too, especially around those wallbreakers.

This is not even playing, but waiting till your opponent fails in his endeavour. If you need to use sableye stall in laddering, it just shows that you are unable to face competition with something else.
Stall is basically trying not to lose for the longest time. It's still playing. Just because you don't enjoy a particular playstyle doesn't mean that others don't. That's why it's still alive.

Failing to impose your own style and pressure with well-built cores and giving up for a safer and 0-risk sableye stall, you had better quitting Showdown, because you gave up what's the real battle spirit.
What exactly do you mean by "your own style? Because I can come up with a bunch of teams that are unique, but they all fall under the blankets of "offense" or "balance." And stall (including that with Sableye) is far from zero-risk; it has to make predictions too. Also, only offensive players have "real battle spirit?" So only offensive players should exist or whatever the heck that statement even means?

We're not suspecting stall here; we're suspecting Mega Sableye. Keep your head on straight when you go about things, just because you don't agree with a particular playstyle doesn't mean that you can go about bad-mouthing everyone who uses it.
 
By banning Sableye-Mega, you practically inferiorize a play style to a certain extent and I don't think we should go around nerfing stall because it's "not a skillful playstyle".
Here's the rub: stall was a much more skilful playstyle before Mega-Sableye. It meant you had to watch out for hazards, status etc; once your opponent gets up Stealth Rock or inflicts Toxic on a couple of your Pokemon, it becomes your priority to Defog/Heal Bell/Rapid Spin before the chip damage builds up. It is up to your opponent to play aggressively to deny you the breathing space to do the same until the passive damage builds up enough that he can break through. These mind games, which can stretch over twenty or thirty turns as the players feel each other out, could be fascinating, some of my most enjoyable battles came in this scenario (playing on both sides). But now, Mega-Sableye just blocks off all hazards/status/taunt at source and you auto-lose if you didn't bring the right wallbreaker.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
is a Tiering Contributor
I like to rag on Sableye stalls as much as the next person, but I'm fairly sure a lot of the people posting here about "it takes no skill" "it's unbeatable unless you use one of like 5 specific things" have never played using this team in the higher reaches of the ladder because this really isn't the reality. I tried some of the teams because I wanted to better understand what frustrated players using them so I could improve my own game vs them. A lot of people seem to be stuck in some kind of mentality where the only possible routes to beating stall are being able to guarantee hazards vs it or having some wonderful breaker that isn't threatened by anything on the stall team. Apart from the fact that neither of these were ever really true statements, they're more inaccurate than ever in the current state.

I actually think the trapping element in general in pokemon is ridiculous and shouldn't be something we ever allow if we want to be truly competitive. By this I mean Pursuit and Dugtrio. I know a lot of people will say Sableye enables Dugtrio but already today and the last couple of days I've seen non-Sab stall utilising double Defog to allow Dugtrio to function in much the same manner it always has done, using it's sash to pivot into threats and remove them from the game and therefore make the matchup almost unloseable for it's team. This doesn't require any particular thought process or incredible play on the dug user's end and doesn't represent something I think is healthy for the metagame. Pursuit is kinda more questionable I guess but other ppl have already touched on it so there's no point reiterating. That said there's no way a council would ask to ban a move or the powers that be let them do it so I'll probably just vote ban on Sableye to get one piece of shit out the tier even if it's not the right one.
 
Welp, I wanted to stay out of this suspect...But the shit I have been reading is depressing in every sense.

The meme of stall taking no skill is a bad one that isn't funny anymore. Designing a successful stall team takes as much effort as designing an HO team that successfully covers all defensive threats and doesn't lose vs it's own playstyle.

HO deciding when to sack to bring something healthy and when to double switch I'd no different from stall predicting when to pivot and force a team out.

No team structure appreciates hazards on their field. Some care less than the next and go a bigger way in removing them than others, some teams that lack offensive presence are punished harder by hazards and stall in general.

There isn't a big skill gap between the playstyle, this is nothing more than mental gymnastics people pull of their asses to defend their ego when they have a hard time vs a certain playstyle.

Truth be told, this is the 6th gen, not the 4th. There are around 60 or so Pokémon in OU with real niches. No team can cover them all, bad matchup will ensue in at least 1 out of 13 games. Does this means that everything is broken? No it means we have diversity and for the most part that is a big sign of a healthy metagame.

Sableye enables a playstyle to play a better match up game with a certain level of safety and in general it's effectiveness varies depending the other player team sableye will exceed vs more passive build or those that rely on revenge killing while it is outright murdered on the switch in without wish support by offensive hazard setters or specs/banded users. That is the truth in the vacuum.

Now, do we think the absence of sableye will make the Metagame healthier ? That is the important question people should be asking each other, some hate the concept of trapping and hazard control done in 3 slots, some hate it, but I'll ask you to be objective about it.

As it stands now I hate the ladder with a burning passion , out of 18 games I only saw 1 mega Venusaur and 1 Pinsir , the rest where mega Medicham teams, and while I admit this is on the race for reqs and particularly based on new toy syndrome it is in now way healthy from what I have seen. Hazards are something we should work for, not instantly consider set as it was the case of suicide leads on gen 4, so I see nothing inherently wrong with holding out on hazards at turn one yet instead saw a big problem on hazard offense with Deoxys on day one.

Tell me, is sableye as unfair or match up reliant as Deoxys hazard offense and thus worthy of being banned for the role of enabler, or is it just you as a player performing mental gymnastics against a team archetype that just had an inherently better match up against the team YOU built.

If I find the time to get reqs, or the patience to deal with yet another medicham team I'll vote no ban. I at least hope I gave you all something to think, peace out.
 
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Welp, I wanted to stay out of this suspect...But the shit I have been reading is depressing in every sense.

The meme of stall taking no skill is a bad one that isn't funny anymore. Designing a successful stall team takes as much effort as designing an HO team that successfully covers all defensive threats and doesn't lose vs it's own playstyle.
.
The difficulty of building a team isn't relevant (though obviously good players are often good teambuilders). If just one person stumbles upon a team that is truly broken, that's all it takes for some element of it to get banned. Just ask dEnIsSsS.

And you keep citing Gen 4 as something we shouldn't go back to, when a significant number of people like Gen 4 better.
 
The difficulty of building a team isn't relevant (though obviously good players are often good teambuilders). If just one person stumbles upon a team that is truly broken, that's all it takes for some element of it to get banned. Just ask dEnIsSsS.

And you keep citing Gen 4 as something we shouldn't go back to, when a significant number of people like Gen 4 better.
He also specified why there were plenty of reasons why stall was still skill based in terms of in game plays as well (pivoting and the like), so I don't see the issue with a small excerpt about team-building as well. Also, if those people like gen 4, they will likely play gen 4 over gen 6 since gen 6 is, for lack of a better term, rotating out here in a few weeks. His points about gen 4 were that we have a lot more diversity now and that tactics that worked in gen 4 no longer work in gen 6. I don't think he meant to say that gen 4 was a poor competitive gen, just that there have been changes since then.

On a little side note, I wonder if we will see any major meta adaptations in the suspect ladder with all the medicham running around. Could be a nice test to see how healthy the meta would be post ban. I've been against the ban so far, but outside of all of the medicham I've been seeing, the suspect ladder has been really enjoyable. That might sway me just a little bit to be honest.
 
The difficulty of building a team isn't relevant (though obviously good players are often good teambuilders). If just one person stumbles upon a team that is truly broken, that's all it takes for some element of it to get banned. Just ask dEnIsSsS.

And you keep citing Gen 4 as something we shouldn't go back to, when a significant number of people like Gen 4 better.
Yes, but in Gen 4 we didn't had such a massive amount of match up issues.

I IDOLIZE gen4 competitive, shit felt balanced back in the day and niche Pokémon managed to feel rewarding outside of the standard builds... BUT! as good as it is to look back to it, especially after gen5 weather wars, times have changed.

Tell me one generation in wich OU managed to have so many viable not gimmicky Pokémon able to fit into a team and actually support a win con. This is a phenomenon pretty much exclusive to gen 6 and this affects the team building process.

Let me tell you, my thought process is barely different when I build a team regardless of the playstyle, support a win con , identify metagame trends, fit how do they affect my wincon and edit my cores accordingly.

This is my thought process for Stall, SS, Balance, HO, Hazard HO, and BO. If anything from my perspective it is a bit harder to build for stall than it is to build a team that keeps offensive pressure, but that is my bias and I won't flaunt it as it was the ultimate truth.

Skill and prediction doesn't freaking change regardless of the playstyle, some scout by using a pivot, some sack to bring a wincon after scouting, some pretend they are Thanatos and double switch only to get paralyzed, skill cap on playstyle is a big fat lie that people use in order to protect their ego.

Matchup is important in Gen 6 and that is a fact that we should all abide for.

People here are literally throwing a fit about pursuit/Trapping+Mega Sableye team archetypes as if they where completely mindless when in reality they only faced their shortcomings as team builders or got out predicted on a dugtrio double switch/cared too much over hazards instead of playing the long con and chip sableye. I'm not going to make assumptions or call them bad, shit happens yet the entire keyboard being covered by it doesn't mean the other player lacked skill or was playing something that plays itself as both players had a degree of risk. My gripe here us that people are apparently bashing on stall and proyecting their idea of "skillful" play into the suspect thread.
 
Welp, I wanted to stay out of this suspect...But the shit I have been reading is depressing in every sense.

The meme of stall taking no skill is a bad one that isn't funny anymore. Designing a successful stall team takes as much effort as designing an HO team that successfully covers all defensive threats and doesn't lose vs it's own playstyle.

HO deciding when to sack to bring something healthy and when to double switch I'd no different from stall predicting when to pivot and force a team out.

No team structure appreciates hazards on their field. Some care less than the next and go a bigger way in removing them than others, some teams that lack offensive presence are punished harder by hazards and stall in general.

There isn't a big skill gap between the playstyle, this is nothing more than mental gymnastics people pull of their asses to defend their ego when they have a hard time vs a certain playstyle.

Truth be told, this is the 6th gen, not the 4th. There are around 60 or so Pokémon in OU with real niches. No team can cover them all, bad matchup will ensue in at least 1 out of 13 games. Does this means that everything is broken? No it means we have diversity and for the most part that us healthy.

Sableye enables a playstyle to play a better match up game with a certain level of safety and in general it's effectiveness varies depending the other player team sableye will exceed vs more passive build or those that rely on revenge killing while it is outright murdered on the switch in without wish support by offensive hazard setters or specs/banded users. That is the truth in the vacuum.

Now, do we think the absence of sableye will make the Metagame healthier ? That is the important question people should be asking each other, some hate the concept of trapping and hazard control done in 3 slots, some hate it, but I'll ask you to be objective about it.

As it stands now I hate the ladder with a burning passion , out of 18 games I only saw 1 mega Venusaur and 1 Pinsir , the rest where mega Medicham teams, and while I admit this is on the race for reqs and particularly based on new toy syndrome it is in now way healthy from what I have seen. Hazards are something we should work for, not instantly consider set as it was the case of suicide leads on gen 4, so I see nothing inherently wrong with holding out on hazards at turn one yet instead saw a big problem on hazard offense with Deoxys on day one.

Tell me, I sableye ss unfair or match up reliant as hazard offense and thus worthy of being banned for the role of enabler , or is it just people performing mental gymnastics on people that just had an inherently better match up against the team you built.

If I find the time to get reqs, or the patience to deal with yet another medicham team I'll vote no ban. I at least hope I gave you all something to think, peace out.
I've been keeping quiet as well. I honeslty feel like this is a stupid suspect but I won't go into that. The problem with this suspect is made very apparent in this thread. SOme people aren't talking about Sableye, they're talking about stall in the same way stall has been talked about for years. Which boils down to "Stall is skill-less and annoying". Which is a god awful foundation for a stance on a ban.

Now, it may be because I feel suspects should only be reserved for Broken, unhealthy, centralizing, and noncompetitive Pokemon, which Mega Sableye is none of, but this is a waste. Annoying? Absolutely, but so is flipping coins hoping I break through paralysis, or crossing my fingers hoping scald doesn't burn. Being annoying never has, and never should be grounds for a suspect, and I haven't really read much amounting to much more than that. Now, yes, threads get pretty shitty with suspects so I won't take 85% of what is said here as a general consensus, but I do fear that "well I hate stall" is the mind set many are going into this with.

The only competent argument I have read is the entire hazards ordeal, which i honestly feel is really weak at best.

Honestly, until someone performs some magic and convinces me Sableye is somehow Broken, unhealthy, noncompetitive, or centralizing I will continue to think this suspect was just a waste of time.
 
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Mega sableye is an annoying pokemon to fight against, especially if you hadn't prepared your team for it. some may say this means that this pokemon is centralizing but i strongly disagree. Nearly every single top threat requires you to prepare your team properly to fight against it. Because the amount of checks and counters to this pokemon is so large, it seems really unnecessary to ban it. Strong=/=broken. If it isnt broken, it shouldn't be banned.

One thing i keep seeing brought up in this thread is that it dominates unprepared teams or you lose the game via matchup. If this is the case, i think it has something more to do with you not making a competent team rather than this pokemon being broken. adapt to the meta, do not adapt the meta to you.
 
One thing i keep seeing brought up in this thread is that it dominates unprepared teams or you lose the game via matchup. If this is the case, i think it has something more to do with you not making a competent team rather than this pokemon being broken. adapt to the meta, do not adapt the meta to you.
You could say the exact same thing about Swagger and Baton Pass. You either pack a Whimsicott or Haze Quagsire and automatically win, or you don't and you lose. Either way, the match is decided in Team Preview.

Our response to teams like this has always been to ban them, not say "git gud".
 
You could say the exact same thing about Swagger and Baton Pass. You either pack a Whimsicott or Haze Quagsire and automatically win, or you don't and you lose. Either way, the match is decided in Team Preview.

Our response to teams like this has always been to ban them, not say "git gud".
You know what else is matchup based? Literally every single Pokemon in the game. It's the degree with which they limit matchups which is important. Swagger and baton pass also forced you to run Pokemon that were generally fairly poor in most other matchups (which isnt really the case with sableye).
 
You could say the exact same thing about Swagger and Baton Pass. You either pack a Whimsicott or Haze Quagsire and automatically win, or you don't and you lose. Either way, the match is decided in Team Preview.

Our response to teams like this has always been to ban them, not say "git gud".
Except in those cases it was a matter of pick incredibly limited and/or stupid options in order to win while destroying your chances against all other teams.

Mega Sableye is more of people choosing to use "traditional" and outdated methods of fighting a team that has gotten new tools and learned to adapt and punish those methods. So instead of using adapting newer, actual viable methods of fighting against it, wish to remove it.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
On the one hand sableye allowed stall to become stronger than ever: do you remember when people said in early XY "stall's dead"? Sable isn't a thing when used alone, the real issue is combos like Talonflame+sableye, dugtrio+sableye, skarmory+sableye
On the other hand, sableye totally blocks rocks. One could say: but zapdos does the same. Yes but while it defogs, you can have free set up or switch. But vs sab: you just lose a turn.
People who use stall are noobs excepted some great builders like ABR and Branflakes.
Those who destroy us on the ladder with sab are often brainless players clicking recover and switching. This is not even playing, but waiting till your opponent fails in his endeavour. If you need to use sableye stall in laddering, it just shows that you are unable to face competition with something else. Failing to impose your own style and pressure with well-built cores and giving up for a safer and 0-risk sableye stall, you had better quitting Showdown, because you gave up what's the real battle spirit.
Ban Sab
Look man, i am pro-ban too, but that is not true. Stall is a playstyle like Offense, Balance, HO, BO, etc, and if you are using it on the ladder you are not a noob. Look, Who is the Best mega Pokémon for a stall team in OU? Mega Sableye! But oh, i am not going to use it cuz i will be considered a noob, pls man... U sound like the People that dont play using legendary Pokémon. Sableye Is unhealthy, yes, but it doesnt mean that if u use it u are a noob.
What I meant was: noobs use sab, not "using stall turns you into a noob"; Ofc it's a very nice mon, but he's over used and I would like to see good players using it, not only tryhards that want to qualify for OLT or whatever despite not being good without sab. Look at this hype after branflakes RMT, no way to win 2 battles in a row cuz everybody uses it, same with Weavile stall....you can't counter them without using specific stuff or combos, and that's too centralizing. And we all know that poor players that use a good HO team DON'T get good results, because you need to have some skill to win!
I must mention how most 'noobs' or low level players wouldn't be willing to play passive. Most of them would just be like 'DUHH, I CAN DO X BECAUSE I CAN - DUHH!' without any thought, rhyme or reason (what you refer to as 'braindead' - see Scald/Knock off spam)*. Is using Sab-M easy and/or low risk? Probably. But I HIGHLY doubt most low level/low skill players would have the attention span for stall. Let me put it this way:

<20 turns - a fast match
20-25 turns - around average
25-40 turns - ok, we're getting on a bit now...
>40 turns - very defensive/stall match.

Do you think that players under mid level / 1500 ELO have the attention span for 40+ turns? Doesn't seem like it to me...

*BTW Darkrai/Mega Lucario (say), are braindead for how offensively potent they are. Sab is in this 50/50 suspect test because defensive partners are easy to find (Heatran quad resists Fairy, Sab's only weakness - for one basic example).

EDIT: I know it's not as exaggerated as that - but still...
What i'm saying is, maybe Mega Sableye is an opportunity for newer players to play passively, and feel as though they'd get success with a playstyle they'd otherwise write off as crap.

also

same with Weavile stall....you can't counter them without using specific stuff or combos, and that's too centralizing.
are you now saying Weavile stall is now centralizing/worthy of suspect?
 
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You could say the exact same thing about Swagger and Baton Pass. You either pack a Whimsicott or Haze Quagsire and automatically win, or you don't and you lose. Either way, the match is decided in Team Preview.

Our response to teams like this has always been to ban them, not say "git gud".
The difference is, there are a bunch of counters to Sableye. if you choose to not use one of the many counters, that's your problem. if there were very few counters, if agree with you, but because there are so many ways to deal with him, you losing on team preview shows that you didn't make a good team. simple as that.
 

6ft Torbjorn

formerly JoycapJoshST
i am going to fucking explode the next time i see someone, once again, stating that sableye has counters. we. know. this. stop removing as much context as you possibly can and start to look at the grander scheme of things, if you're even able.
Damn... you sound angry.
*ahem* on another note - what else do expect us to do vs Mega Sableye? Target it's supports (which would be common sense in one way)? If we know that Hazards don't work vs it and it value is reduced vs comps' that use it - alongside the consideration of it's checks and counters (which you seem to have a short fuse over), do you mind constructively explaining this 'grander scheme of things' that you refer to?

EDIT:

Honestly, what your post shows is the inability to think outside of a vacuum with regards to this, and serious tunnel-vision. Reminder: Sableye has teammates
You're about ready to blow the roof over the mention that Sab has teammates - and yet you once aknowledged this. Hypocrisy much?
 
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