np: ORAS OU Suspect Process, Round 7 - Diamonds [Read post #226] [BANNED]

[Googly]

Glad Sableye is finally getting a suspect by itself. I voted no ban in the last suspect because I wanted to see what Sableye would be like with Shadow Tag gone. Well, it's been about a year and my opinion hasn't really changed that much. It wasn't broken then and it isn't broken now, though I'm still on the fence about whether or not it's unhealthy for the meta. It certainly would be if it was a regular Pokemon, but being a Mega Pokemon I'm not so sure. A player is giving up their Mega Slot for something with no offensive presence and lackluster bulk, but with the ability to support stall teams immensely. I think it's a given that no regular Pokemon should be allowed to provide this level of support in OU, so for me it comes down to deciding whether or not this is okay for a Mega Pokemon. Maybe this is the wrong way to approach this but that's how I'm looking at it anyway.

I don't really have a strong opinion one way or the other, so I'm not going to write an essay on this. But one thing I will disagree with is this argument that "stall is forced to run Sableye or it loses to other Sableye stalls." No, this just shows how lazy and formulaic some people have become with their builds. There are plenty of options which any defensive team can utilise to beat Sableye stalls, without having to use one of your own. A good example of this is the Mega Altaria stall which ABR used while laddering for OLT. He explains the team in detail here, but basically double Defog keeps hazards under control and Rest Heatran is able to stick around and continually set up rocks even after getting knocked off. The team was obviously successful, even though it's a stall team without Sableye. So to say Sableye is a necessity on stall is just an unwillingness to try different things. Building a stall team isn't supposed to be just slapping together 5 fat mons with a Sableye and calling it a day.

That said, I'm not opposed to it leaving. I'll admit that Sableye is a total pain to deal with, so who knows, maybe I'll vote ban this time!

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

Hoopa-U never invalidated stall. This is a misconception. Hoopa was far too susceptible to trapping, so it really got one kill at most in most games against stall which tends to carry a trapper. Its true strength was just having no reliable switch-ins meaning it could get a kill in basically any match (and multiple kills in the right matchups) with only the most basic support. edit: I don't think it had any place on stall given its pretty obvious best role. I'm not sure what good it does to ask us this question during this suspect test anyway

Mega Sab only really being good on stall isn't irrelevant, but it is sort of just a given at this point. Sableye balances have never been successful, so almost every post in this thread is already going to be assuming Sableye is on stall.

I probably should have worded it 'was Hoopa-U any good on stall?' But I see nonetheless.

And to say it's 'just a given' that MegaSab is only good on stall I think is a statement that's easy to take for granted, akin to all the hassle around it countering hazards as well as it does.

With that, I think the best adaptation is finding compositions that utilize Defog more (you might have heard me say this...), Because A) Defog + SR etc. doesn't really work together, and, as we've discussed, It's better not to carry hazards vs Mega Sableye anyway. And B) Mega Sableye's ability to spinblock (BTW we're lacking spinblockers in OU atm, outside of frail stuff like Gengar, and niche/questionable things such as Doublade).

 

[SketchUp]

Ciele, Panther-T, and Aberforth already gave good arguments for a No Ban for Sableye, so I'll try not to repeat their arguments too much.

I don't really understand why one of the main reasons people want Mega Sableye banned is because of the hazards game. The fact that it stops you from getting up hazards neither makes it unhealthy nor uncompetitive. Hazards aren't the only thing that can pressure stall and, in fact, just winning the hazards game and making some double switches to pressure stall doesn't make stall that much easier to beat because a) predictions goes both ways and b) you assume you actually win the hazards game, because if your opponent also gets hazards up, making double switches will also hurt you. I don't really see how stall teams based on the double defog team, such as Chansey, Zapdos, Skarmory, MVenusaur, Cresselia/Reuniclus, Dugtrio that I've seen on the suspect ladder (and actually already reached 2700 COIL) are any easier to get your hazards up against. If you can get up your hazards against that team, you also can against the Mega Sableye Double Defog team.

Stall in general is an anti-meta strategy. Stall adapting to metagame trends like Stealth Rock Clefable and Heatran by running Double Defog or Dugtrio is just another sign of this. I think the metagame also shows signs of offense adapting to this by running pokemon such as Mega Heracross, Crawdaunt and Manaphy more often. People don't use hazards as their main way of pressuring stall, but strong wallbreakers. Mega Sableye definitely doesn't help stall here, because it provides way less defensive support than Mega Venusaur and Mega Slowbro for example.
Stall showed that it is able to adapt to these kind of trends. It did by running Pursuit in the Hoopa-U metagame and it does now by running Dugtrio to get rid of pokemon like Tyranitar and Mega Gardevoir. Offense has shown that it is able to adapt to stall, but the thing that makes this more difficult are the different ways of trapping. If stall would actually be unhealthy, which I don't believe it is, I think the problem lies in trapping (Pursuit / Arena Trap) and not in Mega Sableye.

What I've read a few times is the argument that, while strong wallbreakers and some stallbreakers have a good matchup against Sableye stall, you also need strong hazards control or a good stallbreaker (Taunt for example) to break other stall teams, because they will have a way better matchup against pokemon like Crawdaunt and Heracross. Stall can be really difficult to prepare for if there was a big diversity; if Double Defog stall, MVenu stall, MAltaria and MSlowbro stall would all be common, it would be much harder to prepare for stall. This isn't the case however. Non-Mega Sableye barely sees any usage (so you don't really have to prepare for it specifically) and even if it did, diversity in stall putting a big restriction on teambuilding is a problem with diversity of stall in general, not with Mega Sableye in general. Non-Mega Sableye also has variants that can easily beat pokemon such as Mew, Taunt Gliscor, Gengar, Mega Medicham and Talonflame, so even in a non-Mega Sableye metagame, balance/offense need more preparation for stall than just one of the pokemon. Mega Sableye stall can be beaten by other things than just strong wallbreakers and non-Mega Sableye stall can also be beaten by some wallbreakers (very few are well prepared for both Manaphy and MHeracross for example).

I agree with many of you that banning Mega Sab will have a positive effect on the metagame, but that shouldn't be an argument. The argument should focus whether it is broken, uncompetitive or unhealthy. If banning will solely be done because it will have a positive effect on the metagame, we should also consider suspecting Mega Lopunny, Manaphy, Pursuit and Thunder Wave. No ban.

 

[Nalei]

A well-built stall team with Sableye can be very hard to work around, but wallbreakers, stallbreakers and offensive VoltTurn cores can really mess things up. While Sableye is extremely useful on stall teams due to Magic Bounce, it's by no means a necessity and is even less so broken. That being said, that's just on stall teams. Sableye itself is easy enough to beat. In order to work around Mega Sableye's counters, you need to dedicate nearly your entire team to it. It's not spammable or invincible, and holds minimal offensive presence. Every team should prepare for it, but when it comes down to it, it's not broken.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

We're not really suspecting Mega Sableye, are we? We're suspecting Mega Sableye stall and its many archetypes. Mega Sableye is A right now, yet it is the problem? Maybe.

Stall is never about one pokemon, it's the synergy that the player building manages to create. It's the reason it can be difficult to directly pinpoint the "issue" with stall. It is the reason you can struggle with stall even though you are "prepared". It is the reason a team where no member that can deal more than 30-40% to any of your pokemon will wipe the floor with you without skipping a beat.

Stall is an archetype that hinges on two aspects, team synergy and reaction time.

You want synergy because it lets your team-members depend on each other, they need to support each other because they - like any other pokemon - have flaws. Stall becomes dangerous when you find that sweet spot where you minimize threats/flaws to point that the metagame starts to adapt around your team and its synergy. We've seen this before with ABR stall, Gothitelle, Mega Sableye, Quagsire, Skarmory, Amoongus and Chansey. It's a team that was copied and used to the point where stallbreaker's changed - Mega Heracross, Manaphy, Crawdaunt, Gardevoir, Pursuit and Gohitelle rose to combat this fearsome new archetype. With Gothitelle being banned now ABR stall is mostly a phrase used to describe Mega Sableye + Trapping. Though this is, in my opinion, the best form of stall Wonder Trio is definitely up there as well.

A humorous response was njnp's team "Anti ABR's Aids".
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...l-0-100-1-peak-qualfied-for-olt-team.3550415/

Reaction time is important as well, Stall teams need to be ready to combat metagame trends. ABR stall wouldn't be quite as effective at the start of ORAS, would it? Everything was different back then and you'd effectively be wasting move slots to fight off threats that didn't even exist at the time. In general this leads to a situation where it'll be difficult to figure out who the main culprit is. Is it the player building the team or is it the pokemon on the team?

I don't know, this isn't a pro or anti Mega Sableye post. But I'd certainly be interesting to see the prolonged effects of Mega Sableye being gone before SUMO.

Have a nice day you guys and gals!

 

[0verloud]

Hi there friends. I'm not new to the ORAS OU competitive scene, but I'm a new user on this site (however I do have a showdown account. My ladder's not the highest right now, because I've been trying out some new things, and losing streaks do happen. I digress). Jiibriil made a very very valid point above stating that there's no real point in banning mega sableye, because the meta won't meta played in a couple of weeks. But even further, a variety of mons check little old mega sableye in the current OU meta, such as heatran (flashfire, special based mon) with tends to out stall sab, along with mons like charizard Y, which can safely out play the more common Foul play set, although it struggles a little more (but still outplays) the Calm mind set. Heck, even chansey can wish/protect stall for a good amount of time, although it can't set up. Jirachi has no trouble, because flinch and all, Diancie and Gardie can pretty much safely ok the foul play set/ the calm mind set that hasn't set up. Heck, even if they take a foul play, diance tanks one (Given only 4 attack evs) and gardie tanks one with 0 attack IVs. Diancie outplays Sableye, catching it's set up willos off guard with it's own bounce. I mean, if it's not defensive, Lopunny-Mega can do a significant amount of damage with fake-out, then clean out with high-jump kick. ANY form of Clefable DESTROYS Sableye-Mega. Manaphy has little issue with cm/tail glow, and as long as it's in the rain, doesn't worry about it. Even Burned, with belly drum up, Azu hits hard with Play rough. Venusaur and Zapdos can also stall it out for a while.
In conclusion, Mega-Sableye, although threatening to some, has a wide variety of checks in OU alone. And like mentioned by Jiibriil, there's not a lot of point of suspect testing it until S&M. Thanks for hearing me out guys, even though I'm new.

I vote Don't Ban.

 

[Flamer]

I agree with many of you that banning Mega Sab will have a positive effect on the metagame, but that shouldn't be an argument. The argument should focus whether it is broken, uncompetitive or unhealthy. If banning will solely be done because it will have a positive effect on the metagame, we should also consider suspecting Mega Lopunny, Manaphy, Pursuit and Thunder Wave. No ban.

I dont really have the time to post anything too big and I dont have a defined opinion on whether to ban or not so I dont plan to argue the valid points you made in your post but this line really shows a misunderstanding of why we even suspect mons in the first place. Most past bans were, on paper at least, because of a blatantly "broken" quality the mon had (please note I include uncompetetive and unhealthy as a part of brokeness). However, the real reason something "broken" is banned is not solely because it's broken but because a metagame where that Pokemon exists is not enjoyable to the players playing in it. As I'm of no doubt you're aware, Smogon is not an officially supported ruleset, its a ruleset players have made so that they can enjoy playing with some level of competitiveness. Just look at the framework on which we can deem a mon broken and you can see a recurring pattern; all the statements, while not directly mentioning it, relate to the enjoyment of the player in that scenario. I believe the framework itself even states that it should not be considered completely objective and some judgement calls can be made.

Think back to the Aegi suspect in XY. Despite what people say nowadays to justify the ban and all that bs about 50-50s, Aegislash was not considered broken by the vast majority, and lets be honest, it wasnt. People, or at least the smart ones, argued over the state of the metagame with or without Aegi rather than arguing over whether it was broken. The suspect was about what metagame you preferred and Aegislash got banned because we had more fun in the meta without him. Granted, the comparison is not identical, Aegi was very polarising and reduced team diversity (which is in many ways what Sab does to stall teams), however, as GSC Snorlax can attest, this isn't an auto ban.

Heck, there are many other suspect tests which were based on our enjoyment, baton pass and swagplay werent necessarily broken but they werent part of an enjoyable metagame so we got rid of them. Before you say swagplay is uncompetetive, we actually added that condition to the framework after swagplay was banned, it was at the time setting a precendent.

I hope from this you all can see from this poorly written post that we dont ban because its our god given duty to, we ban because we feel a metagame without them is more enjoyable than the alternative. We are not bound to a set of guidelines to ban things. That being said, I of course know the reason we have that framework and I am by no means saying they are wrong, so dont get it twisted that Im saying we ban things for the sole reason that we don't like them.



also not banning because its nearly SM is stupid and if you think that youre stupid, its so stupid there isnt even any point in explaining why


edit: for anyone who may want the frameworks I was referring to
http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...rk-for-competitive-and-uncompetitive.3550201/
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/ous-tiering-policy-framework-read-and-understand-this.3552154/

 

[Aberforth]

Me and ABR had a 30 minute conversation about this topic and I'm posting the logs here, because I feel this is a pretty substantive log pertaining both sides of the argument.

warning - long

[11:16:30] +Aberforth: do u mind if i speak with u in here rather than in chat
[11:16:36] +Aberforth: it moves too fast to keep up with sometimes
[11:16:53] +ABR: its fine
[11:17:25] +Aberforth: well specifically regarding sableye then, given how adamant you are on it, why is it that it is seeing poor tour use and almost no wins in tours
[11:17:44] +ABR: because people are scared to use it
[11:17:46] +Aberforth: olt playoffs it's not been brought for the last 2 rounds and hasn't won a game since r1
[11:17:53] +ABR: and get ct'd
[11:17:56] +ABR: or whatever
[11:17:58] +Aberforth: and in stours it's win rate isn't exceptional
[11:18:02] +ABR: especially newer players
[11:18:05] +ABR: (commonly in olt)
[11:18:13] +ABR: they dont wanna be seen as "that new poopy who got fucked using stall"
[11:18:57] +Aberforth: that's not the perception people end up having tho
[11:19:01] +Aberforth: unless i've missed something
[11:19:04] +ABR: well
[11:19:09] +ABR: for example last olt, my first tour
[11:19:13] +ABR: i used stall round 3
[11:19:16] +ABR: shake had shed shell togekiss
[11:19:19] +ABR: i got destroyed
[11:19:23] +ABR: then i was scared to use it again
[11:19:25] +ABR: until late in spl
[11:19:27] +Aberforth: yea i did see that
[11:19:42] +ABR: but on ladder
[11:19:46] +ABR: ppl experiment fully
[11:19:55] +ABR: ill outright ignore sableye sometimes in tournaments
[11:20:02] +ABR: if im sure some1 like valentine wont bring it
[11:20:06] +ABR: for tours u gotta account for everything
[11:20:09] +ABR: ladder*
[11:20:23] +Aberforth: ppl think cbb wont bring stall and then he destroys boudouche r1 spl
[11:20:34] +ABR: well yea
[11:20:36] +ABR: that can happen
[11:20:36] +Aberforth: but moving on from that advice u clearly dont need
[11:20:39] +ABR: but u take matchup risks
[11:20:41] +ABR: yea
[11:20:52] +ABR: while tour players r usually better
[11:20:54] +Aberforth: Even in situations like smogtours tho
[11:20:58] +ABR: the ladder is a more true form of the meta
[11:21:10] +Aberforth: it's getting usage but it's not winning a huge proportion of it's games
[11:21:27] +Aberforth: 53% isn't nearly the winrate of something as busted as the rhetoric suggests sableye si
[11:21:27] +ABR: i havent watched many of those games
[11:21:29] +ABR: so i cant tell u
[11:23:22] +Aberforth: ok well i'm not hunting down replays of every oras week
[11:23:30] +ABR: yea ik
[11:23:34] +Aberforth: so i'll just say the usage and winrate it gets at seemingly high level play
[11:23:39] +Aberforth: doesn't suggest to me that it's busted
[11:23:42] +ABR: also
[11:23:48] +ABR: ik at least in past sts
[11:23:51] +ABR: like 20
[11:23:55] +ABR: my weavstall was used a ton
[11:23:58] +ABR: and won a ton
[11:24:02] +ABR: but the issue is some ppl still use it
[11:24:05] +ABR: when its not the most up to date
[11:24:12] +ABR: and dug stalls r kinda superior
[11:24:48] +Aberforth: But then you're left with your own set of weaknesses to stuff like latis et al
[11:25:05] +ABR: dug stalls cover an amazing amount of pokemon
[11:25:05] +Aberforth: duggy is sab dug chan amoon skarm quag right?
[11:25:06] +ABR: its insane
[11:25:08] +ABR: no
[11:25:10] +ABR: its
[11:25:22] +ABR: either double defog + dug
[11:25:22] +ABR: or
[11:25:27] +ABR: wonder trio (shedinja)
[11:25:42] +Aberforth: well the double defog + dug one (assuming there's sableye too)
[11:25:54] +ABR: onthe standard one yea
[11:25:55] +Aberforth: is devoting most of the team to preventing rocks
[11:26:07] +ABR: nah the synergy it retains
[11:26:09] +ABR: is still quite amazing
[11:26:21] +ABR: because dug traps like
[11:26:24] +ABR: a super large amount of breakers
[11:27:02] +Aberforth: it's not like that stall team doesn't have its own flaws
[11:27:10] +Aberforth: especially with sd grounds
[11:27:23] +ABR: sd + sr grounds are indeed the best way to get rocks
[11:27:36] +Aberforth: that is what i tend to use most of the time now
[11:27:55] +Aberforth: along with storm tran + powerful breaker (normally stuff like Garde/Mana
[11:28:11] +ABR: yea those r gonna work
[11:28:13] +ABR: way less
[11:28:14] +ABR: vs dug
[11:28:43] +Aberforth: IK, but I'm aware of this and thus try to have ways of exploiting dugtrio after tran has been trapped
[11:29:21] +Aberforth: an interesting idea I was playing around with that seemed quite effective against the dug stalls I was seeing
[11:29:28] +Aberforth: was sub cm manaphy alongside tran
[11:29:35] +ABR: whats full moveset
[11:29:39] +ABR: ibeam?
[11:30:02] +Aberforth: i think I was using psychic, but yeah sub cm scald ice beam sounds like the best set for coverage
[11:30:10] +Aberforth: the team i was using was particularly weak to venu
[11:30:17] +ABR: well
[11:30:22] +ABR: thats not amazing vs unaware clef
[11:30:26] +ABR: if u get a lot of burns its cool
[11:30:58] +Aberforth: true, but its also not like manaphy is my only way to punish clef on that team
[11:31:07] +ABR: yea ik
[11:31:15] +Aberforth: Which normally results
[11:31:19] +Aberforth: in my winning or losing
[11:31:24] +Aberforth: depending on how well i play
[11:31:34] +Aberforth: and if I miss my fucking leaf storms :[
[11:31:50] +Aberforth: i swear i hit more focus blasts than i do serperior leaf storms
[11:31:51] +ABR: eh
[11:31:54] +ABR: i rarely see someone
[11:31:57] +ABR: outplaying stall
[11:31:59] +ABR: a lot
[11:32:14] +Aberforth: in tour play, where stall is less common
[11:32:29] +Aberforth: part of that, in my view, is that tour players are the ones more likely to outplay stall as well
[11:32:38] +ABR: any time stall loses in tours
[11:32:45] +ABR: theyre either blatantly ct'd or choke
[11:32:47] +ABR: 95% of the time
[11:32:48] +ABR: like
[11:32:50] +ABR: in the replays ficnh linked
[11:33:30] +Aberforth: but that's arguably the case in the non-sableye stalls as well
[11:34:23] +ABR: stall as a whole is more matchup based
[11:34:24] +ABR: i agree
[11:34:31] +ABR: but i think sab takes it to a whole new level
[11:34:38] +ABR: with this trapper enabling
[11:36:01] +Aberforth: how much of that is sableye's fault though
[11:36:29] +Aberforth: as i've said, while double defog isn't as good as sableye for obvious reasons, from a technical standpoint it does the same thing as far as preventing rocks for duggy
[11:36:37] +Aberforth: with or without sab
[11:36:48] +ABR: well spikes matter too
[11:36:49] +ABR: for sash trio
[11:36:56] +ABR: and both defoggers r not leech immune
[11:36:59] +ABR: vs ferro
[11:37:13] +Aberforth: the point of zapdos is that it prevents ferro's spikes tho
[11:37:18] +ABR: ik
[11:37:21] +ABR: and it does mostly
[11:37:22] +Aberforth: well that's a massive oversimplification but still
[11:37:29] +Aberforth: it tends to be reliable
[11:37:42] +ABR: however
[11:37:52] +ABR: ferro can also like
[11:37:55] +ABR: knock off
[11:37:56] +ABR: all that
[11:38:04] +ABR: sableye just shuts down every possible strat
[11:38:16] +Aberforth: I know the set isn't good
[11:38:21] +Aberforth: but that reminds me of something hack said
[11:38:29] +Aberforth: when sab was particularly popular in ubers
[11:38:37] +Aberforth: about speedcreeping with ferro and having sd
[11:38:38] +Aberforth: lol
[11:38:47] +ABR: lol
[11:38:49] +ABR: tesung used
[11:38:52] +ABR: max atk ferro vs me
[11:38:52] +ABR: in spl
[11:38:54] +ABR: when i sabbed
[11:38:56] +Aberforth: lol
[11:38:57] +ABR: pwhip did like 45
[11:39:00] +ABR: also
[11:39:03] +ABR: if sab gets banned
[11:39:03] +ABR: id use
[11:39:09] +ABR: leech spikes pwhip toxic
[11:39:46] +Aberforth: i've always liked the idea of curseothorn
[11:39:53] +Aberforth: with rest talk and power whip
[11:40:01] +ABR: eh
[11:40:01] +Aberforth: walled to hell and back by skarm
[11:40:03] +ABR: grass is pretty bad
[11:40:05] +ABR: as
[11:40:06] +ABR: mon type
[11:40:08] +Aberforth: but a fun idea
[11:40:26] +Aberforth: steel's not that much better when skarm is in the way
[11:40:37] +ABR: well thats my pt
[11:40:40] +ABR: dont use mono atk ferro
[11:40:50] +Aberforth: yea na
[11:40:56] +Aberforth: got sidetracked
[11:41:38] +Aberforth: anyway while i can see the basics of what you're saying, I cant help but feel that there's still an element of personal responsibility there
[11:41:49] +ABR: what dou mean
[11:41:55] +Aberforth: if you have a ferro in your team, you're knowing that you cant set rocks/spikes vs sab teams
[11:42:10] +Aberforth: and thus stuff like vincune and shit should be considered
[11:42:48] +ABR: what imt rying to say is that this is too burdensome
[11:42:52] +ABR: for builders of oras ou
[11:43:15] +Aberforth: I disagree, but that will just come down to how burdensome we each consider too burdensome
[11:43:22] +ABR: yea
[11:43:25] +ABR: thats the subjectivity
[11:43:25] +Aberforth: and my two main tiers are ubers and gsc so I've got a higher tolerance than most
[11:43:26] +ABR: part
[11:43:32] +ABR: which is what it really comes down to
[11:43:40] +ABR: u cant rly argue this
[11:43:43] +ABR: just how ppl feel
[11:43:45] +Aberforth: ya
[11:43:45] +ABR: once we agree it comes to this
[11:44:15] +Aberforth: idk i dont think that the level of adaption required reaches that point
[11:44:18] +Aberforth: largely bc
[11:44:35] +Aberforth: the level of adaption doesn't necessarily make u worse vs other stuff to a huge extent
[11:44:42] +Aberforth: p2 for gren, huge extent
[11:44:54] +Aberforth: but stuff like rocks clef and sd grounds and vincunes et al
[11:45:13] +Aberforth: i feel are within the boundaries of reason for adaptation
[11:46:05] +ABR: well
[11:46:06] +ABR: nah
[11:46:08] +ABR: u need more than those
[11:46:35] +ABR: u cant jus pack sr clef and say "im good vs stall"
[11:47:08] +Aberforth: true but the dynamic of stall is not that there is any one set that you can bring that will make u universally good vs all stalls
[11:47:14] +ABR: yea
[11:47:15] +ABR: for sure
[11:47:19] +Aberforth: in the same way that there is no mon that will 6-0 all offenses
[11:47:56] +Aberforth: and so having to dedicate multiple slots for stall isn't something i see as so bad, most especially when those things often have use vs balance teams as well
[11:48:15] +ABR: i understand when ur coming from
[11:48:22] +ABR: but as we said
[11:48:24] +Aberforth: yea
[11:48:25] +ABR: the rest is subjective
[11:48:30] +Aberforth: i understand where ur coming from too

 

[SlashKing]

Every time I read a post that is against banning Mega-Sableye they always use the argument that Mega-Sableye has counters and can be taken down in battle easily. First off that is a misconception because it all depends on your team and every team needs to be unique and have variety. They always point out the pokemon that can counter Mega-Sableye easily but what if trainers don't want to use that pokemon? What if trainers like variety and don't want to be forced to build a team because a collection of trainers like to annoy the rest of competitive players who actually take the time to create a team because of the diversity of pokemon? Pokemon has 700+ pokemon but because of Mega-Sableye the variety and diversity of battle is limited and basically forces the rest of the world to succumb to a small portion of pokemon that may be able to stand against a Mega-Sableye team but then might be flawed vs other teams on the ladder that dont run Mega-Sableye sets but since battles are random you can never be prepared to bring the right team into battle just in case it is or isn't a Mega-Sableye team. I think Mega-Sableye has been here annoying people long enough it's time to get his annoying ass out of here.

 

[Josh]

Every time I read a post that is against banning Mega-Sableye they always use the argument that Mega-Sableye has counters and can be taken down in battle easily. First of that is a misconception because it all depends on your team and every team needs to be unique and have variety. They always point out the pokemon that can counter Mega-Sableye easily but what if trainers don't want to use that pokemon? What if trainers like variety and don't want to be forced to build a team because a collection of trainers like to annoy the rest of competitive players who actually take the time to create a team because of the diversity of pokemon? Pokemon has 700+ pokemon but because of Mega-Sableye the variety and diversity of battle is limited and basically forces the rest of the world to succumb to a small portion of pokemon that may be able to stand against a Mega-Sableye team but then might be flaw vs other teams without Mega-Sableye but since battles are random you can never be prepared to bring the right team into battle just in case it is or isn't a Mega-Sableye team. I think Mega-Sableye has been here annoying people long enough it's time to get his annoying ass out of here.

This post literally applies to almost every good mon. Seriously, change mega sableye to zard x or latios in that post, it still applies. Please don't vote ban with this mindset :/

 

[NotSoClutch]

Every time I read a post that is against banning Mega-Sableye they always use the argument that Mega-Sableye has counters and can be taken down in battle easily. First of that is a misconception because it all depends on your team and every team needs to be unique and have variety. They always point out the pokemon that can counter Mega-Sableye easily but what if trainers don't want to use that pokemon? What if trainers like variety and don't want to be forced to build a team because a collection of trainers like to annoy the rest of competitive players who actually take the time to create a team because of the diversity of pokemon? Pokemon has 700+ pokemon but because of Mega-Sableye the variety and diversity of battle is limited and basically forces the rest of the world to succumb to a small portion of pokemon that may be able to stand against a Mega-Sableye team but then might be flaw vs other teams without Mega-Sableye but since battles are random you can never be prepared to bring the right team into battle just in case it is or isn't a Mega-Sableye team. I think Mega-Sableye has been here annoying people long enough it's time to get his annoying ass out of here.

Look, I don't want to try to change your beliefs and if you just want to use your favorites, I will not stop you. However, the point of a competitive metagame is not to make every Pokemon viable, but instead it is to create a fun and interesting game for people to enjoy. Smogon has tiers to keep up variety, so if you don't want to be restricted by Sableye, then there is likely another tier you could enjoy. However, this should not be the base for any pro ban argument.

 

[Wob]

Hi there friends. I'm not new to the ORAS OU competitive scene, but I'm a new user on this site (however I do have a showdown account. My ladder's not the highest right now, because I've been trying out some new things, and losing streaks do happen. I digress). Jiibriil made a very very valid point above stating that there's no real point in banning mega sableye, because the meta won't meta played in a couple of weeks. But even further, a variety of mons check little old mega sableye in the current OU meta, such as heatran (flashfire, special based mon) with tends to out stall sab, along with mons like charizard Y, which can safely out play the more common Foul play set, although it struggles a little more (but still outplays) the Calm mind set. Heck, even chansey can wish/protect stall for a good amount of time, although it can't set up. Jirachi has no trouble, because flinch and all, Diancie and Gardie can pretty much safely ok the foul play set/ the calm mind set that hasn't set up. Heck, even if they take a foul play, diance tanks one (Given only 4 attack evs) and gardie tanks one with 0 attack IVs. Diancie outplays Sableye, catching it's set up willos off guard with it's own bounce. I mean, if it's not defensive, Lopunny-Mega can do a significant amount of damage with fake-out, then clean out with high-jump kick. ANY form of Clefable DESTROYS Sableye-Mega. Manaphy has little issue with cm/tail glow, and as long as it's in the rain, doesn't worry about it. Even Burned, with belly drum up, Azu hits hard with Play rough. Venusaur and Zapdos can also stall it out for a while.
In conclusion, Mega-Sableye, although threatening to some, has a wide variety of checks in OU alone. And like mentioned by Jiibriil, there's not a lot of point of suspect testing it until S&M. Thanks for hearing me out guys, even though I'm new.

I vote Don't Ban.

This is frankly ridiculous and all you've shown with this post is an inability to read the rest of the thread. While it might be true that SuMo is coming in the next few weeks, the ORAS OU meta will remain playable for long after that, and so it's important that we create a balanced metagame, regardless of how much it will actually be played in the future. The timing of the suspect test shouldn't affect your opinion.

Also, some of your so called "checks" don't actually check Mega Sableye. You mentioned Chansey, for example, but it quite literally can't do anything to Sableye and in return it can knock off it's Eviolite and proceed to cripple it with status. And of course fairies are going to check it, but as others have mentioned, it's not Mega Sableye that's broken by itself, but it's a problem when it's run with enough support. Any team with Mega Sableye on it will usually run at least 1-2 fairy checks.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

also not banning because its nearly SM is stupid and if you think that youre stupid, its so stupid there isnt even any point in explaining why

TRIGGERED

Why isn't it? Yes, ORAS OU will probably still be played come S&M... but I doubt it will be as relevant as S&M OU considering how quickly we all jump on a new generation.

And:

Yes, there have been BW suspects since XY was released - in particular I believe Drought/Chlorophyll and Sand Stream/Sand Rush were banned.

Note how this is an ability in combination with a specific team type (in fact, this would be due to the Gen 5 weather wars). Have there been any specific comp' wars during XY/ORAS to the same degree? No, not as far as i'm aware. So - you don't think trying to ban Mega Sableye is grasping at straws?

What i'm saying is - nowadays, you'd only go back to competitive gen 5 as a niche thing. And from what I've heard: no individual mon has actually been banned from BW metagame since XY/ORAS has been out. 'But S&M isn't quite out yet!' Well it's damn close, so same difference!

 

[SketchUp]

JoycapJoshST
BW didn't ban an individual mon after XY came out because they didn't have to. That has nothing to do with old gen tiering policy, but with the fact that no indiviudal pokemon is considered broken by the majority of the BW players.
Of course ORAS won't be as relevant as SM will be, but it will still be relevant. Smogon Tour, SPL, WCoP, and Classic will all have ORAS OU in it (4 / 7 big tournaments). I think the majority of the people voting in this suspect will still be playing in some of those tournaments in the future.
I do agree that this suspect does not have the best timing, because there will be a (small) group of people who will only get reqs for TC and never touch ORAS OU again and go on to SM OU, but you make it sound like that the majority of the people voting in this suspect will never touch ORAS OU ever again and you're clearly wrong on that point.

 

[Martin]

Post with low coherence levels incoming:

I hate to continue this off-topic discussion of whether this suspect is pointless or not (hint: its not), but lol its dumb to say that we shouldn't suspect 'cause its almost SuMo because we should aim for the meta to be ideal regardless of how far into the generation we are. The reason that the BW and DP suspects happened in gen 6 was because it was deemed that WeatherSpeed as a whole and Sand Veil/Snow Cloak, respectively, were problems after the generation ended, and given that these metagames are still played in both major and minor tournaments there is incentive to do it before those, and if anything now is the perfect time to have a Sablenite suspect test when the other option is to do so later because it is easier to do an all-inclusive suspect test while there is still a large playerbase on the ladder than it was to do for the post-generation suspects. Could it have been done earlier? Maybe, but on the other hand discussion takes time and it was only decided that the suspect should be put up now.

There will also still be an ORAS ladder post-SuMo, and as such there will still be people playing it. Why should we give two fucks whether people hop onto the SuMo bandwagon in the last week or not? It's your loss if you decide to stop part-way through, and it's not some god-given law that you have to start playing the SuMo meta and stop playing the ORAS meta the moment the former comes out, and as such we need to account for the playerbase who will still be playing the ORAS meta, whether they're tour players or ladder randoms.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

JoycapJoshST
BW didn't ban an individual mon after XY came out because they didn't have to. That has nothing to do with old gen tiering policy, but with the fact that no indiviudal pokemon is considered broken by the majority of the BW players.
Of course ORAS won't be as relevant as SM will be, but it will still be relevant. Smogon Tour, SPL, WCoP, and Classic will all have ORAS OU in it (4 / 7 big tournaments). I think the majority of the people voting in this suspect will still be playing in some of those tournaments in the future.
I do agree that this suspect does not have the best timing, because there will be a (small) group of people who will only get reqs for TC and never touch ORAS OU again and go on to SM OU, but you make it sound like that the majority of the people voting in this suspect will never touch ORAS OU ever again and you're clearly wrong on that point.

Post with low coherence levels incoming:

I hate to continue this off-topic discussion of whether this suspect is pointless or not (hint: its not), but lol its dumb to say that we shouldn't suspect 'cause its almost SuMo because we should aim for the meta to be ideal regardless of how far into the generation we are. The reason that the BW and DP suspects happened in gen 6 was because it was deemed that WeatherSpeed as a whole and Sand Veil/Snow Cloak, respectively, were problems after the generation ended, and given that these metagames are still played in both major and minor tournaments there is incentive to do it before those, and if anything now is the perfect time to have a Sablenite suspect test when the other option is to do so later because it is easier to do an all-inclusive suspect test while there is still a large playerbase on the ladder than it was to do for the post-generation suspects. Could it have been done earlier? Maybe, but on the other hand discussion takes time and it was only decided that the suspect should be put up now.

There will also still be an ORAS ladder post-SuMo, and as such there will still be people playing it. Why should we give two fucks whether people hop onto the SuMo bandwagon in the last week or not? It's your loss if you decide to stop part-way through, and it's not some god-given law that you have to start playing the SuMo meta and stop playing the ORAS meta the moment the former comes out, and as such we need to account for the playerbase who will still be playing the ORAS meta, whether they're tour players or ladder randoms.

I never actually said that ORAS won't be played. I just said it won't be as relevant.
As blunder has said in one of his videos before too is that ORAS is a done meta in a lot of ways, which is why he doesn't want this thing banned (and as you can tell, I agree).

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

no, i don't want sableye banned bc it's not broken

k sorry :D
But do you not think that, as you said, ORAS being a done meta in a lot of ways would be another reason not to have MegaSab banned?

@below i don't remember saying that but if i did then that's wrong on my part bc oras ending doesn't mean sab is somehow more or less broken

You don't remember?

You said it in this vid

oh, and as for Sableye relevance:

 

[noobcubed]

Played on the non-Sableye ladder and good God is it a refreshing metagame to play. Have encountered very few stall teams, and when I have encountered them I haven't lost at team preview because I didn't have the right stallbreaker. I've lost to legitimately good play.

I guess this is the point of Mega-Sableye - by being so damn good at cockblocking hazards (so no reward for aggressive, but risky, double-switches, impossible to use hazard stacking to punish free turns etc) and rendering the majority of stallbreakers useless (particularly in combination with trappers that can be tailor-made to patch up its weaknesses and render things that things that would normally give it trouble into liabilities), it can turn the battle from a 6v6 team battle to 6 individual duels, every one of which the stall player wins. And no, I haven't been run over by Mega-Medicham - as others have mentioned, several of its counters (Mew, Slowbro etc) become a lot better with Sableye gone. Speaking of which, there are so many sets out there that are suddenly usable because they don't get laughed at by Sableye, and I don't have to run stuff like SD + Lum + SR Garchomp just to even have a chance of getting up rocks (before watching Skarmory get rid of them instantly).

Sableye may not be strictly broken, but the way it has warped the metagame around itself is pretty cancerous. In my opinion it would be a better tier without it.

 

[ohgeedubs]

I used to be on the side of "it's never too late to fix a metagame", but now I'm starting to worry because we're talking about a pokemon that is not clearly broken, has as lot of disagreement among top players, and SM is coming out in 2 weeks.

Pokemon bans do get used as precedent, and I guarantee that if Sableye gets banned, then next generation when M-Sableye gets unbanned, a lot of players will be like "This pokemon is so stupid, it was banned last gen, it's still fucking broken why is it not banned?!" Especially with the influx of new players joining for SM and even experienced players who may have skipped over ORAS (I don't consider myself experienced but I skipped almost all of ORAS), people have very short memories. Few people are going to read over this thread again.

I think the metagame is healthier without Sableye, but that's not the point. The way ORAS teams have always been built have always had Sableye as a key concern, whether Sableye-Talon or ABR Stall. That's the way ORAS is going to be remembered, just let it stay that way.

And yeah, I get that people in Ruins of Alph are going to keep playing ORAS and may care about the bans. So do it low key after ORAS is done (if at all), just like you guys did with Weather+Speed Boost in BW.

 

[6ft Torbjorn]

I used to be on the side of "it's never too late to fix a metagame", but now I'm starting to worry because we're talking about a pokemon that is not clearly broken, has as lot of disagreement among top players, and SM is coming out in 2 weeks.

Pokemon bans do get used as precedent, and I guarantee that if Sableye gets banned, then next generation when M-Sableye gets unbanned, a lot of players will be like "This pokemon is so stupid, it was banned last gen, it's still fucking broken why is it not banned?!" Especially with the influx of new players joining for SM and even experienced players who may have skipped over ORAS (I don't consider myself experienced but I skipped almost all of ORAS), people have very short memories. Few people are going to read over this thread again.

I think the metagame is healthier without Sableye, but that's not the point. The way ORAS teams have always been built have always had Sableye as a key concern, whether Sableye-Talon or ABR Stall. That's the way ORAS is going to be remembered, just let it stay that way.

And yeah, I get that people in Ruins of Alph are going to keep playing ORAS and may care about the bans. So do it low key after ORAS is done (if at all), just like you guys did with Weather+Speed Boost in BW.

In a way, I agree with you (not in a 'ban sab' way, i'm saying in a 'S&M is only 2 weeks' way). Also, keep in mind then new fairies coming next gen, specifically the Tapus' / Primarina etc.

Maybe this should be a moral of the story. If people wanted to ban Sab-M from ORAS OU, wait until S&M comes out. Don't bring aspiring S&M players into it (in general, not you ohgeedubs lol).

 

[Count Riario]

I thought this discussion was about whether we need to ban Mega Sableye from ORAS OU, not from SuMo? The fact that it could be broken in ORAS ofcourse doesn't mean that it will be in SuMo, but that doesn't mean it can't be banned in one generation and be balanced in another due to more checks etc. A huge amount of mons in earlier generations are OU over there while they are UU or below in ORAS. This doesnt mean they aren't good in an earlier gen. I believe that's how we should look at Sableye right now. Since SuMo introduces an entire new generation with different mons, moves, technical stuff etc., we shouldn't let SuMo influence our view on ORAS Mega Sableye whatsoever, since ORAS OU will still exist after. Personally I'm not sure whether it should be banned or not, but that's the only thing that should be discussed in my opinion.

 

[Tressed]

For all the people planning on voting Do Not Ban because SuMo is coming out, let me ask you this. Are any of you planning on playing ORAS after the new generation comes out?

It's a question I have to ask because I get the feeling that there's a lot of you out there who aren't planning on touching this meta again after the new stuff is released. That's perfectly fine, its been a long time since ORAS came out and there's a lot of people, myself included, who've been getting bored. There are, however, going to be people who still enjoy this tier, and are going to keep playing ORAS for years to come. I'm pretty sure that all of the OU tiers still have dedicated communities, tournament scenes, and so on. The idea, then, that this suspect doesn't mean anything because its too late in the tier's lifespan to care about the meta anymore is totally wrong.

Mega Sableye has had a huge impact on the meta, especially when looking at how stallbreaking works compared to in other tiers and generations. If Sableye does get banned, that has pretty significant implications on the tier moving forward. Don't just write this off as DNB because that's how its been so far and you don't care about the tier moving forward.

edit: should have put this in here that I don't have an opinion on the suspect, I'm just annoyed with seeing people arguing SuMo's arrival as an antiban argument.

 

[volx757]

For all the people vote Do Not Ban because SuMo is coming out, let me ask you this. Are any of you planning on playing ORAS after the new generation comes out?

It's a question I have to ask because I get the feeling that there's a lot of you out there who aren't planning on touching this meta again after the new stuff is released. That's perfectly fine, its been a long time since ORAS came out and there's a lot of people, myself included, who've been getting bored. There are, however, going to be people who still enjoy this tier, and are going to keep playing ORAS for years to come. I'm pretty sure that all of the OU tiers still have dedicated communities, tournament scenes, and so on. The idea, then, that this suspect doesn't mean anything because its too late in the tier's lifespan to care about the meta anymore is totally wrong.

Mega Sableye has had a huge impact on the meta, especially when looking at how stallbreaking works compared to in other tiers and generations. If Sableye does get banned, that has pretty significant implications on the tier moving forward. Don't just write this off as DNB because that's how its been so far and you don't care about the tier moving forward.

On the flipside, don't group all anti-ban campers as people who think that 'MMedi will be broken and SuMo is about to be here' are reasons not to ban. It's been repeated over and over in this thread about SuMo not impacting this suspect, and even when it's mentioned, it's usually brought up as one of a few reasons:

"...but now I'm starting to worry because we're talking about a pokemon that is not clearly broken, has as lot of disagreement among top players, and SM is coming out in 2 weeks."

The third and least important reason in this list. While I, too, think it makes more sense to close out the meta as it is, and then allow those who want to continue in ORAS to have this suspect afterwards, we've agreed to scrap that as a point of argument. The main points are that MSab is neither broken nor over-centralizing. And it's been brought up before both in this thread and all over, that it's more likely trapping (specifically arena trap in this case) is the true culprit here.

The lack of hard-data and the dearth of opinion in this thread should tip you off, there's no real reason to suspect MSab outside of people finding it annoying to deal with.

 

[ohgeedubs]

There are, however, going to be people who still enjoy this tier, and are going to keep playing ORAS for years to come. I'm pretty sure that all of the OU tiers still have dedicated communities, tournament scenes, and so on. The idea, then, that this suspect doesn't mean anything because its too late in the tier's lifespan to care about the meta anymore is totally wrong.

That's exactly the thing though. The people who like ORAS and who are going to continue playing it probably like the meta more or less how it is. They may dislike Sableye or think it's unhealthy, but probably like enough about ORAS to continue playing it for a while after SM comes out. Why would you radically change the meta before archiving to Ruins of Alph and old gen tourneys? If anything we risk alienating a lot of ORAS players and making them never look back.

This is the sort of thing that should be looked at after years in Ruins of Alph when people still cannot stand it despite the meta being stabilized. And again, this isn't even a unanimous idea. A lot of people want Sableye to stay.

Don't just write this off as DNB because that's how its been so far and you don't care about the tier moving forward.

That's a complete mischaracterization of the argument.

Anyway, it doesn't matter I suppose. It's not like I can stop the suspect test so whatever.

 

[Nash.]

Tbh im pretty neutral when it comes to the suspect, since i stated to some buddies that sableye should get retested but i was never sure exactly if it should be banned or not. Even though the test is this late into ORAS, the metagame is still gonna be played in major smogon touries and thus should still be voted on just like how every other test was, not just because its either "too late" or "want to keep things diverse for the future tournaments.

Just one idea to throw into the discussion is that just IF sableye gets banned doesn't mean it will never come back into the meta. Sun and moon means the addition of other fairy types and other pokemon, so some pokemon will become better or worse when the new games come out. However this test should be voted in terms of ORAS meta and not for how it will preform in the upcoming meta, especially since we don't know stats of the pokemon so we don't know what pokemon will be soid and what will be trash.

Anyway, back to my feelings on the test. sableye is an obnoxious pokemon to deal with in the meta, but it certainly isn't broken, and whether you are pro or anti ban there shouldnt really be much dispute over that. However, mega sableye is a centralizing force of the anti-meta playstyle, and anti-meta style always deserves a place in the metagame. However, there is a point where anti meta crosses over to being unfair on its own behalf.

Stall isn't an unwinnable matchup by any means if you have some sort of team power to break through it . And you can play around stall if you make the more aggressive plays in order to get your breaker in and slowly wear down the opposition. The problem, however lies, with mega sableye being so centralized amonst stall is that the risk versus reward factor is always heavily amongst the sableye stall players favor. Mega sableye invalidates many forms of stallbreaking (taunt mew for one) and forms of hazard setter (ferro since it cant pressure sableye at all, likewise with hippo, defensive land/chomp, skarmory,) that applying pressure or various forms of counterplay is limited. Yeah there are pokemon like taunt gard, taunt torn and strong cores like band tar + zard y, but not every team should be limited to just these options. Even the player at the meta vesus anti meta disadvantage should still have the oppurtunity for counterplay that can apply pressure. Not even going exclusively around hazards, but also status, taunt are able to create counterplay and pressure to the stall player.

On the other hand though, with the amount of threats in the ORAS metagame, an anti meta style is more appreciated to keep things in check. Many people dont prepare for stall matchups as they are unlikely to find people on the ladder and/or tours running that playstyle, or are just ore concerned with preparing for more played styles like BO, Balance, and HO that they forget more towards counterstyles like stall .

I still haven't completely decided what I'm voting for , and i would like to play more ldder games to get a better idea of how the meta is like without mega sableye . At this time, I'm more leaning towards BAN.