np: ORAS UU Stage 3.2 - Game of Pricks [Pidgeotite voted BL] - See Post #257

[dingbat]

Can we start the voting yet o.O

 

[Venoxio]

Wait, the voting threads not up yet? Jeez. (It might be and i'm a complete idiot) But seriously, I don't even know whether Pidge should be banned or not, but I can't vote so who cares.

 

[dodmen]

I agree that some posts here are blowing Mega Pidgeot's brokenness way out of proportion. It does not kill the viability of any Pokemon; Fighting- and Grass-types are plenty viable in a metagame with Pidgeot since it's not totally dominant over the tier like, for example, Zygarde was. It doesn't "overcentralize" the metagame because 1) its checks and counters are good Pokemon and 2) it doesn't force you to run one of an extremely limited pool of Pokemon.

That being said, it's an amazing Pokemon that has limited defensive answers in this tier, mostly because of the ridiculously powerful Hurricane which has few viable specially bulky resistances. However, the 30% confusion chance /on top of/ the stupidly powerful move is what pushes it over the edge for me. It means that no matter how solid of a Hurricane switchin you have, it's always going to be a shaky answer that can't always get the free turn it should. On top of that, Work Up not only lets it get around some of its answers, but lets it capitalize on possible confusions; for example all you have to do is spam Hurricane against Florges and Umbreon until they get confused, then you Work Up and beat them. And to add to that, it's not terrible against offense unlike some other wallbreakers due to its amazing Speed tier - it can actually perform well against offense (able to come in and evolve on a fair number of 'mons on offense like Krookodile, Swampert, Shaymin) and even tanks like Mega Blastoise cannot reliably take a hit and KO back because of confusion.

The bottom line is that while Pidgeot is not overcentralizing, the metagame without it has been so much healthier in my eyes. Again, while the 30% confusion doesn't break Pidgeot by itself, it's definitely makes the tier less competitive than I'd like, especially when you combine it with the fact that Hurricane is already doing big damage to everything. Overall, I think its influence on the tier is too negative for me to want it to stay.

 

[taoke]

I'm voting for no ban
I have tried for mega pidg for several games,I have to say it's powerful and the combination of no guard and hurricane is really annoying.
It just did the same thing as other S rank mons I think.
But 30% hax is unhealthy,I just don't agree.
If Hurricane is unhealthy,why scald is healthy?
I have seen many matches 2 water types spam scald each other,only to get the opponent burn.
Again,rely on hax is not the correct way to play but it's part of the game where we really can't totally avoid.
One more thing is the bird didn't force you to run some bad mon in the tier anyway.(eg unlike run avalugg for mega salamence when it's OU)
PS:if we are banning scald I might agree mega pidg is unhealthy for the meta

 

[Thisbemyalt]

I'm voting for no ban
I have tried for mega pidg for several games,I have to say it's powerful and the combination of no guard and hurricane is really annoying.
It just did the same thing as other S rank mons I think.
But 30% hax is unhealthy,I just don't agree.
If Hurricane is unhealthy,why scald is healthy?
I have seen many matches 2 water types spam scald each other,only to get the opponent burn.
Again,rely on hax is not the correct way to play but it's part of the game where we really can't totally avoid.
One more thing is the bird didn't force you to run some bad mon in the tier anyway.(eg unlike run avalugg for mega salamence when it's OU)
PS:if we are banning scald I might agree mega pidg is unhealthy for the meta

The huge flaw with your argument is that pidgeot is a mon that has several deadly factors that make it broken having an insanely good stab while being fast and able to luck past checks is incredible. Scald is a move that in itself is broken and a strong case has been made for its ban however that should not affect a decision to ban pidge. Sam said is better but u should not vote in a suspect based on other things u think should be banned because I have seen people make the reverse argument in which we shouldnt ban scald because of things like pidge and entei have similar factors. Also on a side note hurricane confusion is worse than a scald burn because burn damage is definitive and occurs like clockwork every turn with the same 12%, however confusion makes it so the player can not make a definitive play. After being burned something can recover or revenge or whatever however with confusion u rely on not hitting yourself or u are forced to switch out.

 

[Kink]

I'm voting for no ban
I have tried for mega pidg for several games,I have to say it's powerful and the combination of no guard and hurricane is really annoying.
It just did the same thing as other S rank mons I think.
But 30% hax is unhealthy,I just don't agree.
If Hurricane is unhealthy,why scald is healthy?
I have seen many matches 2 water types spam scald each other,only to get the opponent burn.
Again,rely on hax is not the correct way to play but it's part of the game where we really can't totally avoid.
One more thing is the bird didn't force you to run some bad mon in the tier anyway.(eg unlike run avalugg for mega salamence when it's OU)
PS:if we are banning scald I might agree mega pidg is unhealthy for the meta

Lol using the lack of scald banning as a basis for not banning Mega Pidgeot is one of the laziest thought processes I've read on this thread so far.

You don't need to even compare the two; a Mega Pidgeot produces its own independent variation of hax and has indendent qualities and fulfills different ban qualifications when compared to literally ANY bulky water type in the tier. Please produce arguments that don't solely rely on the Scald vs Hurricane hax argument. Mega Pidgeots hax brokenness should be evaluated as it compares to the UU meta game, not Scald or any other individual move for that matter.

 

[Bouff]

alright, i wasn't gonna post but after reading some...questionable arguments im gonna change my mind.

after going through the past ~200 posts i kinda realized this test had the same problem as the tini test (i dont know much about the serp test because i wasnt uuing that much back then), being that there is a ridiculous bandwagon in favor of getting rid of whatever is being tested. i mean when you look at most of the ban posts, for the most part, it looks like people are saying pretty much the same thing, with maybe a few differences in their post...they all list the stuff that is kinda obvious, like its high speed / spa, no guard hurricane, etc.. does no one else see a problem with this? to me it just seems like people got into this test with the same ban-happy mentality that they did last test oo

idk though, i just feel like pidgeot's qualities are being somewhat overstated here. br covered this a bit but bird doesn't really 6-0 stall unless you have the most passive shit on the planet that doesn't rely on direct damage (if you wanna call it that) to hit anything, and there are other things i can think of that take a doodoo on stall as well. while there is pretty much 0 risk going for a no guard hurricane, it's not horrendously powerful either, even with its good spA + speed, and the confusion factor can be annoying but it's not like its a reliable strategy that is going to work 100% of the time, i mean come on lol. as dodmen said bird's answers are all pretty good mons on their own, and it's not forcing you to run something obscure

i came into this test like a lot of others thinking that this would be an easy ban but after a lot of playing i kinda think the tier might be fine with bird in it. i know this post pretty much makes me sound like some abrasive hipster, mainly because i didnt go over the qualities that put pidgeot "over the line", but it seems kind of weird to me that people have been using confusion as bird's main breaking point when it got banned in ru without many mentions of it, but there are most likely some factors that i might be forgetting. i also don't really think that voting bl is wrong at all, but it just seems a little weird that people are acting like the influence it has on the tier is a lot more negative than it already is, because it kinda seems like the pro-ban posts are a lil stoic. dont get me wrong ive had my share of bad luck with this thing too but i don't think its as bad as people are making it out to be. sorry if i sounded a little antagonistic here though lol, i tried not to @_@

 

[Kink]

alright, i wasn't gonna post but after reading some...questionable arguments im gonna change my mind.

after going through the past ~200 posts i kinda realized this test had the same problem as the tini test (i dont know much about the serp test because i wasnt uuing that much back then), being that there is a ridiculous bandwagon in favor of getting rid of whatever is being tested. i mean when you look at most of the ban posts, for the most part, it looks like people are saying pretty much the same thing, with maybe a few differences in their post...they all list the stuff that is kinda obvious, like its high speed / spa, no guard hurricane, etc.. does no one else see a problem with this? to me it just seems like people got into this test with the same ban-happy mentality that they did last test oo

idk though, i just feel like pidgeot's qualities are being somewhat overstated here. br covered this a bit but bird doesn't really 6-0 stall unless you have the most passive shit on the planet that doesn't rely on direct damage (if you wanna call it that) to hit anything, and there are other things i can think of that take a doodoo on stall as well. while there is pretty much 0 risk going for a no guard hurricane, it's not horrendously powerful either, even with its good spA + speed, and the confusion factor can be annoying but it's not like its a reliable strategy that is going to work 100% of the time, i mean come on lol. as dodmen said bird's answers are all pretty good mons on their own, and it's not forcing you to run something obscure

i came into this test like a lot of others thinking that this would be an easy ban but after a lot of playing i kinda think the tier might be fine with bird in it. i know this post pretty much makes me sound like some abrasive hipster, mainly because i didnt go over the qualities that put pidgeot "over the line", but it seems kind of weird to me that people have been using confusion as bird's main breaking point when it got banned in ru without many mentions of it, but there are most likely some factors that i might be forgetting. i also don't really think that voting bl is wrong at all, but it just seems a little weird that people are acting like the influence it has on the tier is a lot more negative than it already is, because it kinda seems like the pro-ban posts are a lil stoic. dont get me wrong ive had my share of bad luck with this thing too but i don't think its as bad as people are making it out to be. sorry if i sounded a little antagonistic here though lol, i tried not to @_@

For sake of clarity, can you expand on what you mean by "stoic"? (Feel free to butcher my post, I may not agree with what you said but I like how you said it, and I think it may be a relevant point so feel free to pick mine apart as an example if you want).

 

[DaSpoofy]

I'm leaning towards voting for a ban. Against offensive teams, I don't think Mega Pidgeot is much of an issue. Offense just puts so much pressure on it with priority, hazards, and fast revenge killers that it's not going to find many opportunities to come in and attempt a sweep, let alone Mega evolve.

If you look at balanced and more defensive teams, it's true that on paper Pidgeot has plenty of viable checks and the 30% confusion doesn't seem overwhelming. In practice, however, it is such a massive headache to face. It definitely isn't dependable to spam Hurricane against a slower check switching in, because the majority of the time it will still be able to cripple it or attack Pidgeot. However the fact is that, in my experience at least, people do stay in and spam Hurricane anyway. Considering that any switch-in slower than Pidgeot has a 51% chance of being confused over two Hurricanes, you can see why people do use it as a strategy. It might not outright win the Pidgeot user the game even if the check does get confused, but by making it harder for it to recover or by forcing it to switch out one can certainly open up holes in the opponent's team, which provides a potentially game-changing advantage. You can't base your entire team strategy around hoping for a confusion with Pidgeot, but it's more the free advantage that comes with using Pidgeot that's the issue here. Pidgeot is a good Pokemon in its own right even without the confusion; it has a base 121 Speed and a 110 BP STAB move with perfect accuracy, 135 SpA and no drawbacks. The 30% confusion chance that comes as a side effect of the move is what is pushing it over the edge. The bottom line is that any check, no matter how specially bulky, is going to be a shaky one because of that 30% (50% most of the time) chance. It has huge wallbreaking potential, which is what makes it problematic and is the strongest factor motivating me to vote for a ban.

Another thing is that, as other people have opined as well, I think the tier would simply be better off without it. Although I don't think it is over-centralizing (the Pokemon commonly used to check it such as Empoleon, Rotom-H, Porygon2, and Mamoswine are all excellent Pokemon that are often used on teams even in a Pidgeot-less tier), I've found this metagame without Pidgeot to be a lot more enjoyable, and it lets players breathe more easily. The 30% confusion chance that comes with using Pidgeot makes games less competitive than what we should be aiming for, and its absence makes the tier cleaner and healthier in my opinion. Banning Pidgeot solely because one prefers the tier without it as opposed to with it would set a dangerous precedent for future tests. However, when you combine this with the fact that I'm leaning towards it being outright broken in the first place, I think it is reasonable as a supporting argument.

Also, I'd just like to point out that the increase in viability of Pokemon such as Grass- and Fighting-types that some people have been talking about in the suspect thread is not a good argument for banning Pidgeot at all. Pidgeot really hasn't affected the viability of these Pokemon so much that they've become irrelevant. As YABO pointed out, having a Pokemon as good as Pidgeot is naturally going to affect them to an extent because every Pokemon in the tier is competing for a team slot, so if they lose to the best Pokemon in the tier of course their usage will be affected.

If I had to pick one argument to support the ban of pidge it would be this one. Please read this before you vote. I'm not saying it is going to change your mind but it is a very insightful writing on the suspect. IB93 is also a very optimistic player so I doubt he came into the suspect already wanting pidge gone.

 

[taoke]

Lol using the lack of scald banning as a basis for not banning Mega Pidgeot is one of the laziest thought processes I've read on this thread so far.

You don't need to even compare the two; a Mega Pidgeot produces its own independent variation of hax and has indendent qualities and fulfills different ban qualifications when compared to literally ANY bulky water type in the tier. Please produce arguments that don't solely rely on the Scald vs Hurricane hax argument. Mega Pidgeots hax brokenness should be evaluated as it compares to the UU meta game, not Scald or any other individual move for that matter.

ok.that post is probably a bad one.I will focus on mega pidg itself if any more thoughts

 

[pokemonisfun]

Excuse me Sam and Hikari can we please start the suspect vote? The test ended a few days ago already and most votes take place just hours after the test ends. If you guys are thinking of revising the suspect process because you disagree with reasoning outlined here then can you keep us informed in this thread or an announcement? It seems very much the suspect is being dragged out longer than necessary especially because you guys started the suspect test later than expected and the UU open is pretty soon so building and testing for that is a concern.
Thanks for the trouble.

Ps can you include Victini in the stickied thread of tiering decisions in this forum for reference? I would appreciate that. And also if you could sticky the uu speed tier list Coolstorybrobat made because that's really useful. Thanks.

 

[Kink]

Excuse me Sam and Hikari can we please start the suspect vote? The test ended a few days ago already and most votes take place just hours after the test ends. If you guys are thinking of revising the suspect process because you disagree with reasoning outlined here then can you keep us informed in this thread or an announcement? It seems very much the suspect is being dragged out longer than necessary especially because you guys started the suspect test later than expected and the UU open is pretty soon so building and testing for that is a concern.
Thanks for the trouble.

Ps can you include Victini in the stickied thread of tiering decisions in this forum for reference? I would appreciate that. And also if you could sticky the uu speed tier list Coolstorybrobat made because that's really useful. Thanks.

We'll look into potentially adding speed tiers, although it is currently accessible via resource thread.

 

[Godsend]

I think it's nice to play a little on the regular uu ladder so that both experiences are fresh. That way some sort of hindsight goggles for influence votes one way or another.

 

[Thisbemyalt]

I think it's nice to play a little on the regular uu ladder so that both experiences are fresh. That way some sort of hindsight goggles for influence votes one way or another.

we played a pidge filled meta for months we dont need a refresher we need to vote after we have seen the alternative its kinda the point of a suspect

 

[DaSpoofy]

We played a p

we played a pidge filled meta for months we dont need a refresher we need to vote after we have seen the alternative its kinda the point of a suspect

We did but the people that just joined UU for the suspect don't have any prior relation to what pidge meta was like. I think this is a good thing. I'm sure we can wait a few more days.

 

[Godsend]

we played a pidge filled meta for months we dont need a refresher we need to vote after we have seen the alternative its kinda the point of a suspect

And now we can experience the difference in the No Pidge/Pidge metas with the info we learned from the suspect test. It's not like waiting a couple days is gonna kill anyone, chill.

 

[pokemonisfun]

Certainly Godsend it is technically just waiting a few days and lives aren't on the line.

Our tier leaders have a job on this forum though and they should be explaining to us why this vote is being delayed when, correct me if I'm wrong, nearly all suspect voting threads go up within several hours of the end of the test. Also Sam replied to my previous concerns by completely ignoring my points and focusing on a small section of my post and it's quite clear our leaders have both been trying to nudge people to vote no ban without explicitly saying that. I'm not attacking them for that because it's perfectly fine to have an opinion and want people to agree with you. If our leader however wants to call out last test flawed because of suspected bias among other things (which is a legitimate view and I'm not attacking sam or Hikari for this) then you can hardly expect us to not complain about perceived flaws in this test.

And to end it is pretty clear to anyone reading the end of this thread that most of us want pidgeot gone.

 

[Godsend]

Certainly Godsend it is technically just waiting a few days and lives aren't on the line.

Our tier leaders have a job on this forum though and they should be explaining to us why this vote is being delayed when, correct me if I'm wrong, nearly all suspect voting threads go up within several hours of the end of the test. Also Sam replied to my previous concerns by completely ignoring my points and focusing on a small section of my post and it's quite clear our leaders have both been trying to nudge people to vote no ban without explicitly saying that. I'm not attacking them for that because it's perfectly fine to have an opinion and want people to agree with you. If our leader however wants to call out last test flawed because of suspected bias among other things (which is a legitimate view and I'm not attacking sam or Hikari for this) then you can hardly expect us to not complain about perceived flaws in this test.

And to end it is pretty clear to anyone reading the end of this thread that most of us want pidgeot gone.

It would be nice to at least have an explanation as to why the voting thread hasn't gone up and an eta as to when but I do think the experience of once again playing with Pidge is valuable.

 

[Sam]

starting the vote is a lot of work and Hikari and I both had some stuff come up that's delayed it a little bit

 

[dingbat]

I lost to hurricane hax on the first battle that i faced mega pidgey again

Sigh

 

[Wanka]

Aight so I could not achieve reqs due to unfortunate circumstances that I had to deal with in the monotype community so I have just kinda been chilling out and analyzing some posts that I've been seeing on the thread.

I could not agree more with what bouff said about the giant bandwagon that surrounds the pro ban side of the fence and all you end up hearing is people over hyping pidgeots abilities. Nobody doubts its abilities because it is S rank and it's an extremely good pokemon, but when I see multiple posts of people stating "oh it 6-0s stall ez pz" it kinda gets annoying because it just...doesn't. Like I'm willing to understand the ban side and some people have given good arguments about it which was nice to see, but there is just no thought in some posts other than "hax is dumb ban it."

I did attempt to get reqs however (2300 coil rip) before I failed to finish them out and I have to say that I hoenstly didn't see any significant change. Heavy offense and offensive balance builds are still the premier styles along with stall carrying its weight as usual even with one of the tiers balance breakers gone so the over hype is kinda upsetting because the tier actually has not changed a whole lot and the mons that people are saying "are better now" were still just as good with bird in the meta. (cobalion, roserade, shaymin etc.)

I just really hope that this does not turn out the way the victini suspect ended because I'm still set on the fact that 35% of victini's ban votes were biased as hell and I just hope the same thing doesn't happen to pidgeot.

 

[Dad's Dad]

I love how people that are Pro-Pidgeot try to invalidate Pro-Ban arguments by saying they're just "bandwagonning",yet, most of the Pro-Pidgeot posters are bandwagonning themselves. Blindly agreeing with what bouff and others have said and posting the exact same thing they said. I think what people need to realize is that

1. Everyone who got reqs has an opinion that matters.
2. It's hard to actually bring up new points that haven't already been said before 221 posts in.

 

[Nightingales]

I can't vote because I didn't get reqs, but I'll say that I'd vote ban the bird anyways. Being a strong, fast attacker is nothing these days, we have plenty. But when the checks aren't checks because they might get confused first turn and have a 50/50 to the next, I don't think I can do it.

I know it's been said, but I'll say it again now.

 

[Saria]

Certainly Godsend it is technically just waiting a few days and lives aren't on the line.

Our tier leaders have a job on this forum though and they should be explaining to us why this vote is being delayed when, correct me if I'm wrong, nearly all suspect voting threads go up within several hours of the end of the test. Also Sam replied to my previous concerns by completely ignoring my points and focusing on a small section of my post and it's quite clear our leaders have both been trying to nudge people to vote no ban without explicitly saying that. I'm not attacking them for that because it's perfectly fine to have an opinion and want people to agree with you. If our leader however wants to call out last test flawed because of suspected bias among other things (which is a legitimate view and I'm not attacking sam or Hikari for this) then you can hardly expect us to not complain about perceived flaws in this test.

And to end it is pretty clear to anyone reading the end of this thread that most of us want pidgeot gone.

I'm in exams till next week Friday and this EVO weekend (rip hbox hopes and dreams). There's no deep meaning or conspiracy going on. I simply was busy with other stuff and I'm sure the same goes to Sam." I though Sam had it but I guess he didn't and he probably was counting on me because I did all the other votes, but I didn't even speak with him at all, cuz I been on irc for like 15 min total in the past 3 days. Pokemon isn't a "job", I'm not getting paid and I'm not expecting that to change, it's another hobby for me, and this weekend watching EVO while I wasn't studying was more important.

There's also some facts your post ignores, like that my post is quite anti-Pidgeot (but I am actually abstaining from this vote), that I have deleted like 20 bad anti-ban posts, and that there's quite literally nothing stopping us from simply calling the whole thing off before the vote if that's what we wanted, which is not happening otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. But don't let facts stop you from creating fun conspiracy theories and act outraged over having to deal with Pidgeot for a couple days.

That said, I can probably compile the list of voters tonight after the SF4 final, unless someone does it for me which is not going to happen, but I can't change permissions to add people to the blind voters user group; that's up to someone else.

 

[Saria]

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-uu-stage-3-2-voting.3544755/

Shoutouts to YABO and Christo The Gr8 for helping with the voters list. They both made one.

All permissions should be ok.