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I personally do not expect Sylveon to have that big of an impact on the UU metagame. Modest Specs Gardevoir is likely a far better option than Specs Sylveon in almost every scenario. Sure, Sylveon hits really damn hard, and noticeably harder than Gardevoir(roughly a 6% damage difference), but Gardevoir has access to an amazing secondary STAB in Psyshock as well as access to Focus Blast to catch pokemon like Empoleon on the switch in. Not only that, Sylveon's speed tier is extremely detrimental. Hitting 219 is something walls like Suicune as Cresselia can easily creep as well as not being able to outspeed mons like Blastoise or Nidoqueen. Running a Timid Nature gives you an even better reason to run Gardevoir. The one positive Sylveon has is some very decent bulk to switch in to certain attacks if needed, but that is still no reason to use it over Gardevoir imo.
If we are talking about a potential CM set, as others stated, Florges outclasses. No room for Heal Bell is a big deal and if for some reason you wanted an offensive CM set, run Gardevoir.
Mazz except I didnt say sylveon was broken, I said it has 0 switch ins, which you agree with me in the beginning of your 2nd paragraph so w/e
You are right about most other things too (except the CM set discuss) btw altho the Knock Off switch in argument is a bit weak. if u run Florges or Gardevoir as your knock off (or Krookodile) switch in you are doing it wrong in the same way.
About Gardevoir, it was cool when it dropped but I think Alakazam outshines it a bit, as a hard hitter Psychic with amazing ghost/fighting/fairy coverage. I never thought about it much, Alakazam is stronger than them all, and I guess you don't really mind losing STAB Moonblast when you have to run Focus Blast for darks and steels anyway. Usage statistics don't lie:
But yeah, as a fairy nuke, Sylveon and Gardevoir will compete most of the time. Sylveon is way more unidimensional since Garde has a fantastic support movepool, but I do believe a pure fairy typing is somewhat better for a tank capable of spam strong moves. The speed tie argument is a good one but Sylveon doesn't mind it much. Even if Suicune outspeed Sylv it can't do much back besides Scald ?_? (19.3 - 22.9%). Sylveon will take some hits before bringing something down but I guess that's its whole point.
btw this meta is stale af but if anyone wanna talk, hey! u should try Milotic, Virizion and Escavalier! pretty underated mons (except Milotic) that works really well rn and I just gave u half a team!
Mazz, I love you but most of these arguments are pretty bad :(
1. Having very few switch-ins doesn't necessarily make something broken, I agree with you there. (Though if your benchmark for "not overwhelming" is Life Orb Hydreigon, Mamoswine and Salamence, then I'm not sure you're doing your argument any favors.) That said, unlike Mamoswine or Crawdaunt, Sylveon actually provides a useful defensive presence and a reasonable check to what is probably the single best 'mon in the meta right now, Hydreigon. That's...... really important. Really the only other wallbreaker that also provides useful defensive presence on a team is Hydreigon (and sorta Salamence, though it lacks the wallbreaking power of Hydreigon or Sylveon).
2. Limited auxiliary coverage options are mostly irrelevant. They are niche options that will basically never get clicked. Frankly, you could run Hyper Voice/Psyshock/Sleep Talk/Baton Pass and be fine, because there is almost zero drawback to clicking Hyper Voice against the majority of teams.
3. The ability to 3HKO a threat like Mega-Lix, Nidoqueen and Doublade IS relevant when none of those 'mons have any sort of recovery. Also, you're understating Specs Sylveon's power - it actually reliably 2HKOs Doublade with Hyper Voice, and has a very good chance of 2HKOing Nidoqueen (you need to run quite a bit of bulk to avoid the 2HKO if rocks are down - it's a 100% guaranteed 2HKO versus 56 HP Nidoqueen, for example). Any of these can at most switch into Sylveon once, and Doublade can't actually switch into Sylveon at all.
4. The Knock Off absorber argument is one of the biggest strawmen I've seen in ages. First, I actually disagree that "Knock Off absorber" is actually a role you need on a team. Second, oh no, I have to run a Mega or one of the highest-usage 'mons in the tier? There are only a scant handful of teams that won't want to do that anyhow.
5. Other people have addressed why CM Sylveon will almost certainly not be Sylveon's best set, but for those in the cheap seats: this is actually the one set where Sylveon is outclassed by Florges, as Florges gets the one-turn recovery that is necessary to make this set work. Better physical bulk, bigger Wishes and a better offensive presence make this strictly the better option for a cleric set, while the Specs set can't even realistically compared to Florges (Gardevoir is the closest reasonable comparison).
I don't actually think that Sylveon will necessarily be broken, but I think your post drastically underplays its usefulness and has some really misleading arguments.
I did A LOT of calcs regarding the comparison of bold florges and bold sylveon since they will be competing for a spot as a wish passer. I also have a few theory sets with bold sylveon that I will share after I explain the picture above.
The first calc is max attack Mega Aerodactyl vs bold fairies. As you can see, this calc is in favor of sylveon by roughly a 3% differential. This may not seem like much, but for a defensive wish passer, this is probably a decent thing to keep in mind. Sylveon has a much better time taking hits when rocks are up or if Aero crits that first Stone Edge. That 3% turns into 5% as we apply more damage. Crawdaunt's Crab-hammer will leave florges at 35% and Sylveon at 40%. After one protect, Sylveon is over half its overall health.
The second calc is Modest Mega Blastoise. Once again, it is a 3% differential but this time in favor of florges. This is pretty much the same for all neutral special attacks which include, Mega Sceptile's Leaf Storm, LO T bolt from Zapdos (RIP), and Ice Beam from Kyurem. This will make a slight impact on the wish set but not on any competing calm mind set.
The third calc is banded adamant heracross. I really like this one because florges does fail to be a reliable fighting check but sylveon can take fighting stabs much easier. It is another 3% differential. This one I can see mattering more than the stone edge calc.
The fourth calc is LO Hydreigon dark pulse. I just wanted to show that you can switch in Sylveon like you do florges since its nearly the same amount of damage.
The next one is a +1 iron tail from salamence. Now you do not have to hope for the miss but rather just live and take salamence out. Florges has a 12.5% chance to live after rocks while Sylveon has a 50% chance. After one protect, Sylveon is out of KO range. I say this, because I have never seen anyone DD up on a florges predicting protect. That's insane lol. Though I don't think I would protect on a salamence and turn my 50% chance to survive into a 100% chance to lose (not factoring in iron tail miss). Beedrill's Pjab calc is very similiar to irontail with rocks up.
The last calc is offensive nidoqueen sludge wave. Doing that to show that both pokemon will be pretty much useless after taking a heavy special hit. Florges does have the potential to protect and heal back enough to take hits from drei but that seems pretty situational.
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Besides bulk, Sylveon has a signifigantly more power than florges. Florges, however, has that chance to lower the SpAtt with moonblast and that is a big deal. Another thing florges has over sylveon is the speed tier. Sylveon is stuck around the 160 mark along with umbreon, empoleon, weezing, chesnaught, and alolomola, all things that florges naturally outpaces. Also, if you are thinking that Sylveon will just end up like aromatise, you might be right, but I think you are wrong. I mean Sylveon doesn't have crap speed and has way more power than aromatise (which prevents it from being set up bait). Hyper voice goes through sub so pls have your gyarados set up on Sylveon. EZ!
With the added psychical bulk and still decent speed with extra power, I think a "crocune" style of Sylveon might perform well. That and a defensive sub cm set. Choice specs will probably be the go to set because its so easy to use. Simply switch in on Hydra and take chunks from the enemy team. After all this, I do think sylveon will be the better wish pass of the two. The fairy typing is better suited for the physical side and you still take less than half from power special moves. Bigger wishes. The extra power is a very big bonus as well.
e: By the way, Gardevoir is a crappy way to switch into hydriegon. It has better offensive typing, but I rather not be 2hkod by drei. Also the power difference is nothing to shy over.
Sylveon: One of the key advantages of Sylveon will be its abilities as an offensive Pokemon to switch into Hydreigon's STABs due to amazing raw special bulk. On top of that, its defensive typing is fantastic and 95 / 65 / 130 overall bulk is certainly not bad for a slow wallbreaker. I think Sylveon will find its home on teams that need a hard-hitting Fairy-type that can still take a couple of hits along the way, which is something Gardevoir can't really do in spite of its much better Speed tier. Full-on Wish passing will also be easier for Sylveon than Florges thanks to Pixilate helping it have some power and the better HP. Specs probably will be the go-to set since it can perform pretty well as a bulky wallbreaker thanks to its great Special Attack and solid defenses / defensive typing. Btw, the Specs set will probably gain more by going for a Speed benchmark (probably Florges for a low benchmark and Adamant Crawdaunt for a high benchmark) with the rest in Defense rather than HP to get as much physical bulk as possible.
Conkeldurr: This thing has coverage for just about everything. The Speed tier kind of sucks, but it should be able to run AV, Sheer Force LO, and maybe even Guts Orb (Speed might be too low for this one) While it should be pretty versatile, it is incapable of doing everything at once and will always have reliable answers depending on its set / coverage, though figuring out that coverage may cost you mons. Bulk Up is another possibility, but the Speed will again be a problem for such as a set. Should be a great option on offensive balance and bulky offense builds, much like Sylveon will be.
So, I have been messing around with calcs and possible sets for Conkeldurr. I guess I had this mind set that this thing was going to have no great switch ins and that it would be just fantastic, but I did come across a few things that seem to be problematic for Conkeldurr.
1. 45 base speed ===============
Think about this. Crawdaunt has 55 base speed, and it has to run jolly to be viable. This is 45 base speed which hits 189 for max and with jolly 207. Those numbers look familiar because they are common speed tiers. So if you want to outspeed Conk with florges, just add 16 speed and do a whopping (91.1 - 107.6%). Jolly? Don't worry! Life Orb Sheer Force Poison jab won't be taking you out (79.6 - 94%). Speaking of jolly, base 85's only have to invest 8 evs in speed to catch Conkeldurr. This can be the difference in getting a rest off, setting up rocks, using defog, or knocking out Conk before it can do anything. I mean, at this point, I'm thinking, "Why not just use Machamp?"
2. Mono Fighting ===============
Because Conkeldurr is so slow, it needs some defensive utility so it can actually switch into things or take a move and fire back. No, I haven't forgotten mach punch, but where does it fit? If you don't have poison jab, you can't hit fairy types, knock off then no doublades, cress, or reuniclous, ice punch no salamence. gligar, or crobat, no drain punch no recovery or any good stab. I mean it is really frustrating trying to make a set work with this guy and because there is no powerful secondary stab, you are constantly playing the guessing game. Because this thing has some great switches, I see it getting one kill at best, and then being too weak to do anything else. You can recover with drain punch, but it seems hard to find targets to do that with.
3. Counter Sets ===============
No matter what set you can come up with, their always seems to be a common way for your opponent to deal with it. I was hoping max spdef bulk up would be a good set, but offensive psychic types, like alakazam, don't care how many bulk ups you have. It's just ganna 1hko you from full. Florges also counters you every time. An offensive sheer force set deals with speed issues and takes a lot of damage from any special hit. The only set I see as maybe working is an assault vest variant and even that might not be better than machamp. This idea of max speed jolly bulk up three attacks nags at the back of my mind. It still seems bad tbh.
Well, that's what I think about this potential new drop. I thought it was going to be really good until I ran it through the calcs. I could be wrong. Tell me what you think this will be good for? Can it switch into anything? Is it really this easy to clean up? Let me know.
In addition to the wall breaking potential of LO Sheer Force, AV Guts Conkeldurr can provide a pivot on offensive teams that helps check some common things offense struggles with - such as Sableye, almost all Scald users and Zapdos. It also gives them a Draco switch-in, which is not always an easy thing to find without losing offensive momentum. Hydreigon's LO Draco, which is pretty much the gold standard for special attacks in the tier, does roughly 50-60% - not enough to be a long term answer but enough to regain some momentum and put the game back on your terms for a bit.
While Spoof has mainly been working with offensive / defensive calcs primarily by the looks of it, I've been looking at Speed tiers for the two to reach. Here's what I've gotten to with both Conkeldurr and Sylveon:
Sitting at Base 45, Conkeldurr will want to outspeed Blissey at the very least to keep it from getting off a last-ditch Wish or SToss on Conk. This also gets ahead of Donphan (useful when using Ice Punch) Mega Aggron (useful for obvious reasons) and Sableye (useful to keep it from Knocking Off Assault Vest if it's in KO range) Empoleon and Porygon2 sit at the base 60 Speed tier, but that starts to really slice into Conkeldurr's bulk and you're probably better off with an all-out offensive set.
Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spe OR 252 Atk / 112 SDef / 144 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Ice Punch
The Sheer Force set should aim for higher benchmarks since it's focused on breaking down walls. Max Speed Adamant puts it at 189 Speed, which is ahead of Florges and everything below. However, if you still want it to take some resisted special attacks, aiming for base 65, which includes Umbreon, Porygon2, Chesnaught, and Empoleon, isn't a bad one to go for. Mach Punch can be used over Ice Punch for priority, but just dumping shit like Donphan, Gligar, and Zapdos (if it stays) is really nice.
This hits Florges at base 75 while giving Sylveon about a 5-7% boost in physical bulk, which can be very useful considering Fairy has a lot of physical-based resistances and 95 / 130 special bulk is great even uninvested. One of the big perks Sylveon has as a Specs user is a relatively slow Baton Pass, which allows it to act as a pivot rather than a straight-up wallbreaker. Hyper Voice and Psyshock covers most of UU pretty dang well with HP Fire there to hit the odd Bronzong, Metagross, and Escavalier. The EVs account for HP Fire's imperfect Speed IV. Also note that Hyper Voice blasts through Substitutes, which is yet another perk it has over Gardevoir. This is especially useful when facing SubDD Gyarados. Sylveon can go even higher with 220 Speed EVs to outpace Adamant Crawdaunt, but the loss in physical bulk generally would make it an inferior Gardevoir imo. You could also drop a little lower with Sylveon to base 65s (48 EVs) but being able to bust through Florges before it can try to setup many Calm Minds is very helpful.
Thanks to base 110 Special Attack and Pixilate, Sylveon isn't quite as passive as other Wish passers in the tier. Wish + Protect are obvious and Hyper Voice is necessary to give Sylveon a strong offensive move. Heal Bell rounds out the set to allow Sylveon to support its team more, but Baton Pass can be used to more safely pass Wishes thanks to Sylveon's relatively low Speed. The EVs maximize physical bulk and outspeed Chesnaught and Umbreon to ensure that Sylveon can push through them and prevent them from supporting their team mid-game with an extra layer of Spikes or a last-minute Heal Bell. While Sylveon shares the same typing as Florges, it can pass slightly larger Wishes, has a bit more physical bulk due to the much higher HP, and has a bit more offensive presence thanks to Pixilate while also not being fodder to bulky Sub users. It obviously isn't nearly as good of an option as the Choice Specs set will be, but it is useful to teams that need Wish / Cleric support, a bulky Fighting / Dark resist, and a defensive mon that isn't as passive all in one slot.
I see both of these Pokemon being very solid, but definitely having their fair share of flaws. Conkeldurr has a pretty crummy Speed tier and mono Fighting isn't the best defensive typing out there while also facing competition from Machamp as an AV user (which is likely to be its better set) Meanwhile, Sylveon's Speed tier is equally as crummy for what it wants to do, although I think it has a bit more promise thanks to its Choice Specs set having such few switchins on top of the strong defensive typing and relatively slow Baton Pass. Both have secondary sets that can often take advantage of how the opponent plays against their likely primary sets (LO Sheer Force can outspeed Florges whereas Guts AV can't while WishPass Sylv can stand up to a lot more hits than Specs can) I'm thinking B / B+ for both (Sylveon might sneak into A-) strong Pokemon, but definitely have flaws that will hold them back.
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 66-78 (19.8 - 23.4%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gardevoir: 148-175 (53.2 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is the reason to run specs Sylveon over specs Gardevoir. It's very difficult to switch into Hydregion without using passive walls like Florges, and Gardevoir's secondary psychic typing doesn't make allow it to switch into Hydreigon safely. Sylveon could be a great fit for a lot of bulky offense teams, since they will finally have access to a solid Hydreigon check with great offensive presence.
Sylveon appears to offer solid competition to Florges for a cleric role, with similar bulk, slightly larger Wishes, and better offensive presence. However, I think Florges will still be the better choice for most teams. Wish + Synthesis gives fewer free turns to opponents than WishTect and can't be Roared to prevent recovery. Florges's higher speed tier will also prove useful if fast Poison Jab Conkeldurr becomes a popular set.
So how do y'all think about the possibility of Zapdos moving back to OU? Personally, I've taken quite the liking to Zapdos, it has a place on a lot of teams of mine, mostly because of its defensive utility. Its ability to act as a Fighting check that can also deal with Bulky Waters and its access to Defog make it a great addition to many teams. Zapdos comes in and Defogs on many common Stealth Rock and Spike users in UU except for Mamoswine and has reliable recovery in the form of Roost. Also, defensive Zapdos is arguably the most consistent and most capable user of less common sets like Substitute + Roost and Agility + Baton Pass. Offensive sets are also fun to use and nothing to laugh at with a great 125 SpA stat, a good speed tier at 100 Spe and decent coverage options. However, its offensive prowess faces competition from other Electric types like Heliolisk and M-Ampharos, unlike the unique capabilities defensive sets offer. I think it is this uniqueness that has secured Zapdod a safe spot on many successful teams in the current META and that a lot of teams will dearly miss Zapdos' (especially its defensive) traits. I for one really don't want to see Zapdos go, but enough of me, what is your guys opinion on the possibility of loosing the thunderbird to OU?
I would be more sad about zapdos moving to OU for the fact that its dong in OU and people are still using it -.- I guess our volt switch zapdos ladder club will never die. Shoutouts to the quality OU ladder scene.
I like Zapdos and there's no doubt that it's a great mon, but I feel like Zap is contributing to a stale meta. When something does it's standard set job better than anyone else and has the benefit of being able to run multiple sets and do those better than other mons in the tier why not use it over something else.
It's become like a "glue" mon like Swampert. However unlike Swampert Zapdos has access to recovery and is able to run more than two sets well (even better than mons who run similar sets) and no 4x weaknesses. It can also be part of a VoltTurn core. So again, why would you use another mon over Zapdos? It makes no sense.
I think Zapdos being relegated to OU might be good for the UU meta. It will help make it less stale for sure because with Zapdos gone we may see an increase in usage in Shaymin, Venomoth, and Tentacruel to name a few good mons who can shine in UU without the threat of Zapdos looming overhead.
I expect that Reuniclus will get much better with the upcoming tier shift, as it can comfortably set-up on both cleric Sylv and Conkeldurr (Once its item has been knocked off.)
Item: 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 214-252 (50.4 - 59.4%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
No Item: 252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Reuniclus: 144-170 (33.9 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
While Reuniclus can recover off the damage and set-up calm minds for a 50% chance to KO at +1.
When Conk comes down it will dissuade the usage of darks (especially Sab!) that can stop darks, as well as Guts Conk can comfortably switch in to Sableye, meaning that reun will no longer have to run Shadow Ball to hit it, and instead can run FB for Darks, or EBall to hit Suicune.
Also, 252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +2 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 160-189 (37.7 - 44.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
You guys know there's a possibility Sylveon and Conk WON'T drop, right? Especially since this guy is probably going to keep spamming them in OU like all the other times they came close to dropping. Also, ROFL at the possibility of Zapdos going back to OU.
While I agree that Reuniclus will be able to handle AV Conkeldurr, I don't see how it sets up on Specs Sylveon considering Sylveon can directly switch-in due to its special bulk and respectable HP, and thus Reuniclus will only be at +1 for the first hit:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +1 252 HP / 0 SpD Reuniclus: 213-252 (50.2 - 59.4%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If Reuniclus takes a little bit of chip damage as it comes in on a resisted hit, Sylveon pushes past it, especially if Reuniclus gets caught by Knock Off. Sableye is still going to be good. Maybe not as good as it is now (maybe A- in viability instead of A) since both Sylveon and Guts Conkeldurr don't care much about it, but as I said in a previous post, I don't see either one becoming A / A+ rank threats due to the flaws they have.
As far as Zapdos goes, I'm a little bit sad to see it go due to its great versatility, but it does open the door to a solid amount of Pokemon that are a bit hindered by Zapdos. Heracross and Shaymin are key offensive Pokemon I see getting better while Tentacruel, Empoleon, and Chesnaught are some defensive Pokemon that can improve with Zapdos no longer around. No surprise that these are all entry hazard setters that are A.) weak to Zapdos's Electric STAB or B.) incapable of threatening Zapdos with anything worthwhile.
I just want to use CM + BP on Sylveon since it already scares out so many things. This can be nice for giving a frailer mon more special bulk or just passing it to something like Infernape. I kind of sucks the only special steels that will be brought in will be NP + Lucario or CM + Cobalion :/ but the SpA boost can help maybe help get past all of the Bulky steels like Doublade. Or I might just use Magneton + BP to beat all of Sylveon's Steel-type switch ins.
Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Ice Punch
What differentiates this set from EonX's is the use of Superpower. Please use Superpower and not Drain Punch. Drain Punch even with Life Orb is just so weak and the recovery isn't worth deducting from your overall wallbreaking prowess, which should be the ultimate goal of Sheer Force sets. Superpower is monstrously strong and takes a huge chunk out of anything that doesn't resist it, and in some cases it simply cripples resists to the point where they can't take another. Obviously the downside of it is that you get the dreaded Attack and Defense drops which makes it more of a hit and run attacker that fires off the appropriate move at the appropriate time. Also just go Max Speed tbh, cutting a large gap of Speed for the capacity to function as a psuedo tank as well isn't worth it at all when you don't have an AV equipped. Mach Punch is cool I guess for if you want to have some form of priority, but again, for a wallbreaking role I'd prefer Ice Punch instead so limit what can switch-in on it.
Superpower
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 195-230 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 165-195 (45 - 53.2%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 230-270 (57.3 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 247-292 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Drain Punch
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 121-144 (29.9 - 35.6%) -- 30% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 104-122 (28.4 - 33.3%) -- 29.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 142-169 (35.4 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 153-183 (38.9 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
This is probably a more efficient and specialized AV Spread. It still does so very nice things like 2HKO Florges with Poison Jab (89% chance with 252/252 Sylveon), 2HKO Gligar and Nidoqueen with Ice Punch, etc. However the main draw is that Conkeldurr is piss weak without Life Orb or Sheer Force, so you rely upon Guts for your power and I decided to capitalize upon that. So in trade of lack of power (which it had with max investment still), I invested more into bulk and speed. It can now outspeed min Speed base 60's like Empoleon and Porygon2 without cutting too much power out of the picture that you can still abuse Guts fairly well and it hits an Attack hits a jump point as well. In a nutshell, I cut out power since the 2HKOes it miraculously achieves with max attack it can still achieve without max attack for the most part and not outrunning Empoleon or P2 straight up sucks
Core Speculation
LO Conkeldurr + Mega Absol
Idea is that Conkeldurr will be a pretty nice balance breaker with it coverage + power and it lures / outright beats or weakens a wide range of Mega Absol's defensive checks rather easily to give it breathing room to initiate an easier sweep / clean. Worth noting it pairs rather well with Dark-types despite the compounded Fairy weakness.
LO Conkeldurr w/ Thunder Punch > Ice Punch + Mega Sharpedo
This core carries the same concept as above, except Conkeldurr is packing Thunder Punch since it almost (97.7%) cleanly 2HKOes Suicune, so you have an idea of how bad it mauls other Water-types who usually check Mega Sharpedo rather well and gives it room to clean up without much of an issue. Also it's one of the best mega in the tier imo.
AV Conkeldurr + WishPass Sylveon
You had to see this coming. These two form a pretty nice defensive core since Sylveon is a nice check to nearly everything that threatens Conkeldurr and vice versa. Sylveon also offers valuable WishPassing which is excellent support to AV variants to improve it's longevity.
Fairy Spam: Specs Sylveon + Slurpuff
Really nice concept since they both possess similar checks, Sylveon weakens every single check that can obstruct a Slurpuff sweep with it's incredible power with Choice Specs. Compounds a lot of weaknesses, so not very valid as a "good" core. Seems fun though.
F / D / S: WishPass Sylveon + Offensive Pivot Mega Ampharos + Bronzong
I really like this since Sylveon is an excellent cleric that brings a considerable amount of offensive presence despite being a defensive WishPasser. Brongzong + Mega Ampharos form a great core in their own right that really appreciates a cleric.
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Thoerymon aside, Conkeldurr will have a hard time to distinguish itself in the tier. Subjectively, Heracross will almost always be a better pick on most teams since it has another STAB to choose from, much better Speed tier, Swords Dance, etc. It can literally take the place of Conkeldurr in the cores I listed above. Regarding Machamp, it outdoes it concerning an AV set since it has better Special Bulk, while Conkeldurr has more overall bulk. As for offensive sets, I'd honestly prefer to use Conkeldurr since it's not forced to run Choice Band for power and it has more power when regarding coverage due to Sheer Force + Life Orb.
Zapdos leaving would instantly make SR + SD Cobalion a lot more viable again and this extends towards all those offensive threats that had to adopt some kind of coverage move just to hit Zapdos. With it gone I'm assuming Water-types (Milotic, Tentacreul) will get even more better, Grass-types will see more usage (Virizion, Shaymin, Roserade),and other Electric-types might just become more viable such as Rotom-C and maybe Mega Ampharos.
Overall I'll be happy when they finally drop, especially with Conkeldurr.
I think that the Bulk Up set will be very useful, BU + Drain + Knock + Poison Jab/Ice Punch will be very useful to defeat Defensive Oriented teams, since the team members or can't touch Conk, or will make it better with status, however, the AV / LO Sheer Force will be better sets anyway. I need to say that Conk doesn't need a Poison Type coverage cuz he can run a better coverage, as the most of the teams actually are prepared to defeat Florges, since the tier has a ton of Steel and Poison Types, imo Nidoqueen + [Insert a Steel-Type here] + Conk will be hard to hand, but, let's see if Conk and Sylveon will drop before speculate xD
Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Ability: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Ice Punch
What differentiates this set from EonX's is the use of Superpower. Please use Superpower and not Drain Punch. Drain Punch even with Life Orb is just so weak and the recovery isn't worth deducting from your overall wallbreaking prowess, which should be the ultimate goal of Sheer Force sets. Superpower is monstrously strong and takes a huge chunk out of anything that doesn't resist it, and in some cases it simply cripples resists to the point where they can't take another. Obviously the downside of it is that you get the dreaded Attack and Defense drops which makes it more of a hit and run attacker that fires off the appropriate move at the appropriate time. Also just go Max Speed tbh, cutting a large gap of Speed for the capacity to function as a psuedo tank as well isn't worth it at all when you don't have an AV equipped. Mach Punch is cool I guess for if you want to have some form of priority, but again, for a wallbreaking role I'd prefer Ice Punch instead so limit what can switch-in on it.
Superpower
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 195-230 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 165-195 (45 - 53.2%) -- 89.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 230-270 (57.3 - 67.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Superpower vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 247-292 (62.8 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Drain Punch
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 121-144 (29.9 - 35.6%) -- 30% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Nidoqueen: 104-122 (28.4 - 33.3%) -- 29.3% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Swampert: 142-169 (35.4 - 42.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Conkeldurr Drain Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 153-183 (38.9 - 46.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
Tbh, those are some pretty shit calcs. You're giving up your one source of recovery to do a bit more damage on a single hit, then deal roughly the same damage the next turn, failing to actually 2HKO any of them. Meanwhile Cune and Milo both naturally outspeed; Nidoqueen needs 8 EVs to do so, and the first two then just stall you out with recovery(or just burn you anyways).
I mean, if you really want the raw power in a fighting STAB, might as well got Champ/Hera at that point.
Also, feel I should point out we've been in this position before with Conk/Sylv looking like they were about to fall. Hell, it was the shift we got Zapdos. So don't get your hopes up until you see the actual shift.
I personally do not expect Sylveon to have that big of an impact on the UU metagame. Modest Specs Gardevoir is likely a far better option than Specs Sylveon in almost every scenario. Sure, Sylveon hits really damn hard, and noticeably harder than Gardevoir(roughly a 6% damage difference), but Gardevoir has access to an amazing secondary STAB in Psyshock as well as access to Focus Blast to catch pokemon like Empoleon on the switch in. Not only that, Sylveon's speed tier is extremely detrimental. Hitting 219 is something walls like Suicune as Cresselia can easily creep as well as not being able to outspeed mons like Blastoise or Nidoqueen. Running a Timid Nature gives you an even better reason to run Gardevoir. The one positive Sylveon has is some very decent bulk to switch in to certain attacks if needed, but that is still no reason to use it over Gardevoir imo.
If we are talking about a potential CM set, as others stated, Florges outclasses. No room for Heal Bell is a big deal and if for some reason you wanted an offensive CM set, run Gardevoir.
Why are you bringing up coverage on a specs set? Specs gard is completely different since Hyper Voice hits soooo hard you can lock into it and just 2HKO resists without having to lock into set up bait moves. It's like the difference between Meloetta's Hyper Voice and Explouds boomburst, more 3HKOs and 2HKOs
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I think CM Florg will still have a niche due to how much more fast paced of a tank it can be to keep up with offensive pressure but Wish pass Sylveon will offer that extra bit more support to other teams with bigger wishes and a stronger STAB
There will be games where you brought Florges and the only reason you lost is because you didn't bring Sylveon and there will be games where you brought Sylveon and the only reason you lost is because you didn't bring Florges but overall those games won't be that common. Both mons will probably keep UU usage due to their similar strengths as clerics that have subtle differences.
Why are you bringing up coverage on a specs set? Specs gard is completely different since Hyper Voice hits soooo hard you can lock into it and just 2HKO resists without having to lock into set up bait moves. It's like the difference between Meloetta's Hyper Voice and Explouds boomburst, more 3HKOs and 2HKOs
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I think CM Florg will still have a niche due to how much more fast paced of a tank it can be to keep up with offensive pressure but Wish pass Sylveon will offer that extra bit more support to other teams with bigger wishes and a stronger STAB
There will be games where you brought Florges and the only reason you lost is because you didn't bring Sylveon and there will be games where you brought Sylveon and the only reason you lost is because you didn't bring Florges but overall those games won't be that common. Both mons will probably keep UU usage due to their similar strengths as clerics that have subtle differences.
I am bringing up coverage moves because it does matter. I get what you are saying that you can mindlessly click Hyper Voice and do a lot of damage, but saying that having coverage has no perks on a Specs set is just wrong. It is nice that Sylveon can 2hko Florges with Stealth Rock up, and a Moonblast from Gardevoir has a 34% chance to 2hko Florges with SR up. But this + an actually decent speed tier that outspeeds walls and the access to a secondary STAB + Focus Blast that beat what would usually switch into Moonblast is definitely something that makes it worth using over Sylveon in my opinion. You do not have to agree and can rather just click Hyper voice and hope for the best with Sylveon, but Gardevoir's coverage perks do matter.
It is essentially picking between
Sylveon: Better Natural bulk and stronger + more spamable Fairy STAB while being extremely slow and no way to punish common switch ins
Gardevoir: Weaker fairy STAB but the coverage options to beat such switch ins and a far better speed tier to outspeed common walls.
I mean yeah garde has a far better speed tier than garde but It's kind of throwing me off as to ur reasoning on why that speed is so important. If we are talking about how mons are most commonly checked and for sylveon going to be checked, then mentioning outspeeding walls in ur argument for garde being better is pretty irrelevant. 95% of the time a battler is going to try and check garde is through offensively pressuring it or giving it little to no opportunities to get in due to its somewhat sub par bulk. And simply put, sylveon doesn't need to outspeed walls like cune, florg, and cress as you mentioned. All those mons are gunna do on a switchin is either try and heal off the damage which they cant do, or hit you with an absurdly weak special attack and die the next turn. Garde being able to outspeed those mons after they switchin doesn't give it an edge over sylveon in the slightest. And if ur referring to gardes ability to be able to switch into walls as opposed to walls switching into it, then that doesn't give it an edge either because you cant break through those mons 1v1 anyways. AND if ur referring to garde being able to pick off weakened walls, then again, it gives no edge to garde as those walls simply cant do anything signifigant to sylveon.
The coverage argument kinda makes sense I guess but its more so that nobody really cares about it. Nobody is ever going to complain about sylv not having STAB psychock and nobody will ever use that as a reason to run garde instead, it just wont happen whether you like it or not, nobody cares about it because ur either clicking baton pass or hyper voice. Having BP pretty much makes up for any coverage it lacks as well because if ur opponent does have a hard counter then they will 100% need to bring it in due to sylv having little true counters and BP will be such a foolproof move as opposed to potentially putting urself up shit creek when trying to predict with a coverage move.
tl;dr the speed is none other than a petty comparison and BP is foolproof enough to make up for any situation where clicking HV has a drawback.
E: The first line is misleadnig lol, all I meant to say was that garde has a higher speed stat, I just suck at getting my thoughts across sometimes.
The coverage argument kinda makes sense I guess but its more so that nobody really cares about it. Nobody is ever going to complain about sylv not having STAB psychock and nobody will ever use that as a reason to run garde instead, it just wont happen whether you like it or not, nobody cares about it because ur either clicking baton pass or hyper voice.
Lmao this is a bold ass statement to make. The pokemon isn't even in the tier and you are generalizing the whole uu community into thinking your opinion is true. Also, why the hostility? I couldn't care less about what the community uses and their reasoning as it doesn't pertain to me.
Anyway, some people will find ways to make use of Gard and Sylv, respectively, depending on the team. I think running this debate into the ground is a little counterintuitive, as the argument is very subjective, and almost to a fault, as there were no opportunities to ever test it in the tier. Also, Christo, it'll be the community that'll help illustrate the different possibilities of Sylveon.
Speaking of which, I think it's premature to say Psyshock will never work with Sylveon's power, and there are multiple things it lures that a variety of Hidden Powers can capitalize on. Let's just try to stay civil and enjoy the fact that a new fairy is entering our tier that'll breed some variety.
