np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[shrang]

Did everybody forget about Mew or are it's BPing sets less significant this meta?

It's a lot harder trying to Baton Pass off these days, with Dragon Tail forcing Mew to run Substitute (Even then the Sub can be broken), and Mischievous Heart makes Mew's job difficult every day of the week.

NP Mew is actually really cool though, it's like 4th gen non-raining Manaphy with a crappier typing, ability but way better coverage. Something like Nasty Plot / Psychic (Or Psycho Shock) / Aura Sphere / Flamethrower can pretty much dent everything, and Mew has the bulk and Speed to do enough damage. You can also put stuff like Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Softboiled/Baton Pass or even Will-O-Wisp in the last spot, he's got so many options.

 

[Gabe]

Upon a few PO battles, I rescind my statement about Manaphy. It has to go. At least Darkrai can be Mach Punched.

 

[alphatron]

Excuse me, but I was constantly told that Mew was in ubers solely because it was impossible to predict, could run just about anything, and was really hard to play around. I was also under the assumption that it only baton passed because it was outclassed by everything else in ubers. Of course a baton pass Mew wouldn't be broken.

 

[shrang]

Excuse me, but I was constantly told that Mew was in ubers solely because it was impossible to predict, could run just about anything, and was really hard to play around. I was also under the assumption that it only baton passed because it was outclassed by everything else in ubers. Of course a baton pass Mew wouldn't be broken.

Performance in Ubers has nothing to do with OU tiering.

 

[Faladran]

Thanks Phil. 1500 is certainly a high rating, but it's likely to change if necessary. Other than that, I'm looking forward to trying out the new metagame.

 

[Limewire]

Manaphy and all the Deoxys (except Deoxys-D) are quite deadly. I think Darkrai should go too. Sure, it can be Mach Punch, but with Gen V's new sleep mechanic, a sleeping Pokemon is as good as dead.

On a slightly different note, I've been reading about whether to ban DrizzleToad or not, and this question popped into my mind: Can a Trick Room team generally counter an offensive Rain Dance team (by using Swift Swim against them)?

 

[alphatron]

I know that. I didn't know nor do I know anything about Mew being banned for being a broken baton passer in standard play. I thought he was banned for being unpredictable and nearly impossible to play around since the number of effective sets he can run are endless. The only reason he ever baton passed so much was because in ubers, that's all he wasn't outclassed in.

Which makes me wonder what changed to make people say that he isn't uber now.

 

[Gabe]

I know that. I didn't know nor do I know anything about Mew being banned for being a broken baton passer in standard play. I thought he was banned for being unpredictable and nearly impossible to play around since the number of effective sets he can run are endless. The only reason he ever baton passed so much was because in ubers, that's all he wasn't outclassed in.

Which makes me wonder what changed to make people say that he isn't uber now.

Power Creep, he moves too slow to hit fast enough and doesn't hit hard enough to warrant a scarf. Psychic is also bad typing.

 

[Miscellaneous]

You don't want to underestimate Mew. Ever. He may have become less effective, but the fact people have ignored him only renders him as more effective. The reason why it's not being discussed more is due to other potent potential suspects, mainly the new introductions.

I'm still slightly sceptical about Manaphy. It's definitely more the best pokemon to have on a rain team, that is undisputable. What is disputable is it's true effectiveness in the metagame, especially considering the power creep. Manaphy is bulky, but less relatively so than before. Manaphy is quite fast, but the larger versatility makes this metagame's speed ties relatively higher. Also, tail glow lacks the bulk that calm mind brings. Having said that, auto-rain could definitely push Manaphy over the borderline. I'm uncertain on the idea, haven't played much recently either. Also, I don't think it's necessarily an oversimplication to categorise "rain" in general as being unwanted and broken, it's just we should tread carefully on how to go about it if we decide a policy like that, or one similar. bans should try to be kept relatively simple.

 

[Chomper The Sharptooth]

I think banning DrizzleToed is a bit much when the most deadly rain Pokemon (Manaphy) remains in the tier. At the very least I'd give Politoed more time, same with Deoxys-S and Deoxys even. Deoxys-A is a monstorous attacker and should certainly be a suspect, but Deoxys-S isn't the lead it was in Gen 4. Hell, with things like Doryuuzu his revenge killing in the tier isn't even guaranteed. Deoxys plays very much the same as Deoxys-A, with a higher defense. The defense is still low enough to die to just about anything in the tier, while the drop in power could be a deciding factor. As it is now though, Deoxys is outclassed and should only be a suspect is Deoxys-A is banned and Deoxys actually gets usage.

 

[Ulevo]

I think Darkrai should go too. Sure, it can be Mach Punch, but with Gen V's new sleep mechanic, a sleeping Pokemon is as good as dead.

Then why are we not questioning Breloom? Or Parasect?

On that note, I have been finding Darkrai to be underwhelming in many aspects, particularly due to the current metagame. Dark Void is amazing in its own right, however Darkrai doesn't sweep as well as others do despite Dark Void. Nattorei is #1 currently, and it walls Dark Pulse, Ice Beam and Thunderbolt. I haven't done damage calculations, but I'd assume Gyro Ball does a decent amount of damage. Tyranitar is #2 and sponges all those attacks easily as well. Some variants use Rest + Sleep Talk. Doryuuzu at #3 outspeeds and OHKO's Darkrai with X-Scizzor, #4 Heatran walls Ice Beam and Dark Pulse. You also have Scizor with Bullet Punch and Roopushin with Mach Punch in the top #10 who both resist Darkrai's STAB. Garchomp at #8 is often Scarfed, and will outspeed and OHKO with Outrage. Blaziken at #6 outspeeds after Protect and OHKOs with Hi Jump Kick. Blissey at #10 walls all variants not carrying Nasty Plot.

Darkrai is also frustrating to use when Dark Void misses. With so many Pokemon that resist its typing coverage and threaten it with priority moves or SE attacks, missing even once means you need to switch Darkrai out again. It's defenses are decent by base, but you need to invest most of the EV's in to Speed and Special Attack, so it's really not that solid.

Just my thoughts so far from using Darkrai.

 

[Bologo]

I'm wondering why people are saying all of the Deoxys forms are deadly...the only one I've seen be even remotely threatening is Deoxys-A, and he can still be checked pretty easily by a lot of non-Fighting weak Steels, which there are plenty of.

Deoxys-D can lay down hazards and do a Cosmic Power set, but honestly, I think there are much better entry hazard layers now, and Cosmic Power is totally fucked over by Toxic Spikes. Nattorei is a prime example of a much better entry hazard layer, because while he may not have Recover, his typing and ability to not be setup bait due to good Attack make him much better for the job. Same thing with Sturdy Skarmory, or Sturdy Forretress. I'm getting the feeling that people are just lumping all of the Deoxys forms together and haven't actually fought many Deoxys-D, because every time I've fought, it hasn't done very much to be honest.

Deoxys-N may have intimidating stats, but it honestly just doesn't hit hard enough. 150/150 attacking stats may be high, but when you're relying mostly on unSTAB moves to do damage, it's just not going to do enough damage. I know that Psycho Boost may be strong, but it does leave Deoxys-N as setup bait for an opponent. Deoxys-N can Calm Mind, but as a glass cannon, he has very little time to set up. As an anti-lead, I haven't found him to be very good, especially with Team Previews making it difficult for him to actually do the job consistently since he could always be met with a bad matchup at the beginning. Just remember, there are plenty of things in the metagame with offensive stats that rival his along with combinations of higher BP STAB and better typing. I honestly don't know how people could think this thing should even be a suspect when Deoxys-A isn't banned. While I don't think Deoxys-A should be banned, if it does get banned, I seriously don't think this guy's going to be following after him if people just try to adapt to the newer threats.

Deoxys-S has served me well as a lead, but I honestly don't think it's suspect anymore. He's received so many nerfs with the new Mischievous Heart users, Espeon and Xatu, as well as the new buffed Magic Coat. Not to mention that with Team Preview, you can pick something that can make its life really difficult as your lead, since I've found that DX-S users pretty much always lead with them no matter what. Dual Screens can be dangerous, of course, but Mischievous Heart users shut this down, and you can also screw up their strategy by phazing them if they're planning to try a Baton Pass chain with the screens. This is easier since Dragon Tail and Overhead Throw exist.

 

[alphatron]

What about dual screener deoxys speed form with magic coat.

 

[panamaxis]

agreeing with Bologo, the only Deoxys I've ever had trouble with is Deo-A. Everyone and their mother learns magic coat nowadays, Deoxys-S isn't even close to as good as it was last gen.

 

[Euphoria]

I echo the manaphy banning. I actually cannot think of a way to stop it in the rain. Status it? Instant heal. Damage it? Rest with no drawback. Wall it? +6 in two turns+ double STABed surf, then it rips your team apart. If anyone has a way to stop it, please do tell. As I have no ideas.

Darkrai I dont see as quite that abusive, especially with mach punch/vacumm wave being more common. But sleep is far more painful in this gen, and darkrai is one of the best users of it.

Basically anything with water absorb but Lanturn does it best He dies Too signal beam though Manaphy is an Uber to bad regular users cannot vote.

 

[Ulevo]

I have to agree with this as well. For the limited time I did use Deoxys-S, I often led against opposing leads that would corner my decisions between using Magic Coat to reflect Taunt/status conditions back, Reflect to prevent U-Turn damage so I could lay more entry hazards before dying, or set up entry hazards immediately. When I guessed wrong, I'd either get tricked a Choice Scarf and have to switch, have to switch to a phazer to force out a Baton Pass chain, receive a Thunder Wave, or take lots of damage after assuming my opponent would switch. Deoxys-S as a lead is good, but it's very predictable because of how effective its lead options are, so you can always prepare for what it will do; especially with team-preview.

 

[Vaz]

Well, I will be definitely trying my best to reach 1500. There are currently a few pokemon on my mind that are quite obvious to everyone and need to be researched thoroughly.

 

[shrang]

A couple of anti-metagame Pokemon that I think works well for this first Suspect test:

1) Scarf Heracross - Can switch into pretty much everything Darkrai does, and since Sleep Talk doesn't fail any more, you can just spam Sleep Talk to kill it. Can also revenge-kill Shaymin-S, Latios (and Latias), Mew and if Guts is activated, you have a good chance of OHKOing 4/0 Manaphy and Garchomp with SR damage as well. It's too bad you can't catch Swift Swimmers or Dory, but whatever

2) CB Abomasnow - I remember using this in Stage 3-2 to great effect. Hail removes deadly weather effects, making things like Manaphy, Kingdra and Doryuuzu more tame. Wood Hammer OHKOs Manaphy, Ice Shard OHKOs Garchomp (Sand Veil can't help him now either) and does >65% to Latios.

 

[Darkon]

A question: will have a "suspect tier"?

Or dream world will be the tier for tests?

Or standard ou?

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

I either hope that Latios is banned or that Soul Dew is given a definite ban or unban, because I don't want to RNG a Latios only to have it become Uber.

Of course, we're not testing Soul Dew... :(

 

[ocarina of rhyme]

just posting to say that doryuuzu isnt really broken. its a sweeper. just like any other sweeper, its either going to rip things up, or get ripped up. the only things i'm really getting annoyed with so far are skymin and latios. skymin just tears things up with either sheer power or hax. latios is just a monster with specs. it pretty much plays the same way it did in gen 4 in my experience, but that doesnt make it less potent. just my $.02

 

[Chou Toshio]

Darkrai-- I can't really think of a reason not to use Darkrai. Oh wait, I thought of one-- Breloom (especially DW if it comes out). Otherwise, I can't think of any reason to not have Breloom or Darkrai on my team. The advantage of sleeping one enemy is just too great, especially if it comes with substitute and likely taking out another enemy! Sure Xatu/Espy can be annoying, but you see them with team preview anyway. Unlike Breloom, Darkrai rapes them both too with Dark Pulse should they predict wrong. Xatu is basically the perfect breloom counter. >__>

Outside of Darkrai (who is probably too much), the only others I feel iffy about are Doryuuzu and Deoxys-A/normal.

About Doryuuzu-- it is only even closed to balanced while Politoed and Ninetales are in the meta, and are popular. Should OU drop into a perma-sand condition like last gen, I would say Doryuuzu (and maybe Landlos too) should be insta-banned. Doryuuzu's speed precedent with no boosting is just ridiculous, achieving that speed with no CS. >_>

Overall I think I'm going to find myself saying "It's not ban worthy!" a lot in this testing process. From Wobbuffet to Garchomp, I'm pretty "meh" on most.

Shaymin-S should not get banned unless we decide "It's too haxy" or "it's annoying" are legitimate reasons to ban something (at which point I'd be cool with banning it)-- because its power is nowhere near "top OU."

 

[Arc Tech]

Darkrai-- I can't really think of a reason not to use Darkrai. Oh wait, I thought of one-- Breloom (especially DW if it comes out). Otherwise, I can't think of any reason to not have Breloom or Darkrai on my team. The advantage of sleeping one enemy is just too great, especially if it comes with substitute and likely taking out another enemy! Sure Xatu/Espy can be annoying, but you see them with team preview anyway. Unlike Breloom, Darkrai rapes them both too with Dark Pulse should they predict wrong. Xatu is basically the perfect breloom counter. >__>

Outside of Darkrai (who is probably too much), the only others I feel iffy about are Doryuuzu and Deoxys-A/normal.

About Doryuuzu-- it is only even closed to balanced while Politoed and Ninetales are in the meta, and are popular. Should OU drop into a perma-sand condition like last gen, I would say Doryuuzu (and maybe Landlos too) should be insta-banned. Doryuuzu's speed precedent with no boosting is just ridiculous, achieving that speed with no CS. >_>

Overall I think I'm going to find myself saying "It's not ban worthy!" a lot in this testing process. From Wobbuffet to Garchomp, I'm pretty "meh" on most.

Shaymin-S should not get banned unless we decide "It's too haxy" or "it's annoying" are legitimate reasons to ban something (at which point I'd be cool with banning it)-- because its power is nowhere near "top OU."

I really think you're trying to ban the wrong things. It sounds like your problem is more with sleep than Darkrai or Breloom, and sandstream than doryuuzu or landlos (P.S. I've found sandslash as effective as doryuuzu in my own experience, so don't say it's just dory.)

And with hax anything is broken, it's just the chances are so low that we just ignore them, but with skymin it's just too high.

 

[JabbaTheGriffin]

Shaymin-S should not get banned unless we decide "It's too haxy" or "it's annoying" are legitimate reasons to ban something (at which point I'd be cool with banning it)-- because its power is nowhere near "top OU."

Leaving out the rest of your post because I don't really care about the other suspects as much as I care about Skymin.

Not sure exactly what metagame you're playing in where Skymin isn't near the top of OU but I, and many others, think that it's by far the best Pokemon currently in OU (and broken beyond belief).

Its speed still remains near the top seeing as most new threats this gen have settled in around the ~350 area meaning it's still packing amazing speed, great special attack and an amazing special movepool. Combine that with a powerful air slash that flinches 60% of the time and a STAB 120 power move that lowers special defense by 2 stages 80% of the time and you're looking at a pretty ridiculous Pokemon. It's not "haxy" when on a turn by turn basis it's likely to get what it needs.

Then if you look at what it can do it has 3 main sets really: Life Orb, Scarf and Leech Seed.

Life Orb hits ridiculously hard to a degree that reminds me of trying to switch in on Mixmence. The only difference of course is that if you make the right switchin on Skymin you still have a high chance of losing because of a special down or flinches. Since it's so fast it's hard to switchin anything faster that can take the hit and then immediately threaten it, you're pretty limited in how to deal with it. It can run through both offensive and defensive teams.

Scarf is an awesome revenge killer with ridiculous speed that still hits hard as fuck. Any Pokemon that fast with a 60% flinch move is going to be a problem to get by (even Jirachi who had to rely on a shitty steel type move was hard to get by at some times). It really runs straight through offensive teams.

SubSeed is just a complete bitch. Bologo outlines pretty well what makes it so good compared to other subseeders. If you get a free turn with this thing against a defensive team your opponent is going to be sent scrambling trying to figure out just what the fuck to do to take you down short of pp stalling you. I've been on both ends of this.

So really, no matter what playstyle you use there's a Skymin set out there that is going to give you massive trouble and the Life Orb set can just decimate all styles (stall has an easier time i guess because of sand stream and a few protects here and there but Skymin usually takes a huge chunk out of the team before it goes down even if it often predicts wrong).

There's just nothing out there right that compares to the speed, power and versatility of Skymin (or if they do they die to an unboosted mach punch).

 

[locopoke]

agreeing with Bologo, the only Deoxys I've ever had trouble with is Deo-A. Everyone and their mother learns magic coat nowadays, Deoxys-S isn't even close to as good as it was last gen.

The only reason that Deoxys-A seems to be the only threatening Deoxys form right now is because he easily outclasses each of the other forms. In a metagame where none of the forms are banned, like the metagame we have right now, obviously Deoxys-A will be the only form getting usage and it will be the only one people want to ban. The fact of the matter is that once Deoxys-A is gone, Deoxys-N will dominate the metagame, and then Deoxys-S and Deoxys-D(not in the same way but it will). Deoxys-S is also still a very solid lead and has no problem getting tons of layers up. Especially now with team previews and being able to switch leads, if they have a Pokemon in the lead spot that prevents Deoxys-S from getting hazards up you can just switch Deoxys-S out to get hazards up mid game.