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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

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Theres quite a few options to use. Just use things like Haze, Roar/Whirlwind, Perish Song (very good on Celebi), Unaware ability Pokemon, and Holy Sword move on the three legendaries to bypass boosts. Using the legendaries would mean that you have to kill them fast or risk getting toxic or burned, in this case the fighting and steel type would be the best one and just swords dance to sweep. Maybe having a cleric would be a good idea just in case if you like.

Gastro Acid is a good way to nullify the Inconsistent ability. Pokemon that have it include Jaroda, Morobareru, Arbok, Victreebel, Shuckle, Cradily, Denchura, and Shibirudon. As mentioned before, Morobareru is very good and you can spore the switch in.

If Inconsistent is countered consistently (no pun intended), then people will start using them less I suppose. You just need to prepare your team for it.

These are just some options I know of for now. Any other ideas?
 
Ok I suck at math so I'm going to ask: What are the chances of an Inconsistent pokémon to get at least +2 in Evasion or Speed after one Inconsistent activation, ending up with no -1 in neither one? And after two activations?


Don't forget we have that pesky -1 every single turn along with the +2.
 
The chances of getting +2 in one of those stats over one turn is 2/7. Then for getting the boost over two turns i think is 4/7 but I'm not 100% sure on the second one.
 
Since when has Jumpluff of all things been an issue?

700 speed, Eq immune, sleep even in ubers (in which he work even crazier AND more insane due to Groudon being actualy a very threatening pokemon(Droughttales ? whats that shit ? lol)) Jumpluff has been a very big issue to go up against.

This apply to banning the inducer too. Those inducer is great since there are the abuser. If the abuser and something like the backbone(kingdra, Dory, Venusaur) dont exist, inducer (except for ttar hippo aboma) wouldnt be so common like before.

NOW about ubers inducer in "OU" isnt like inducer like those in Ubers. In ubers Kyogre and Groudon is very threatening in itself and broken from all side(like groudon and kyogre has never been broken) and the fact that those are able to be used alone and with each other seeing they cover each other well. In fact those 2 is one of the prime and best choice for uber player to focus their team into seeing both of them being one of the best pokemon even in ubers.
In fact team like Groudon, Kyogre, 4 non abuser whatsoever is some of the best team formula
in ubers

Now lets be honest do you actualy want to make such a team consist of Droughtales, Drizzletoed, Streamtar or Streampowdon and 3 filler that isnt weather abuser(maybe able to include though) and focus your team onto like toed sweep(hard and unreasonable), Tales sweep(for fanboys), (i wont say Ttar sweep and hippo sweep(omg) im not that dumb ^^) ? i bet no and even if you do it usualy isnt as effective. In fact if you make weather team your goal is like abuse the weather with the weather ability abuser and something like rando sweep, Dory sweep, K dra sweep, mana sweep etcetera. Also if your not using weather for your sweep, your using it to nulify other weatehr so the Abuser cant have party That being said its the abuser that is dangerous not the setter IF were going through this metagame viewpoint.
 
1 Inconsistent activation, Spe/Evasion only boost: 2/7 (boost) * 5/7 (other stats decrease) = 10/49, or about 20%.
2 Inconsistent activations: (10/49)^2 = 100/2401 = 4.16%.
 
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet but--

Inconsistent Bibarel vs. Unaware Bibarel seems like a hilarious match-up.

Pretty much a pointless post but I think it's worth a mention.
 
1 Inconsistent activation, Spe/Evasion only boost: 2/7 (boost) * 5/7 (other stats decrease) = 10/49, or about 20%.
2 Inconsistent activations: (10/49)^2 = 100/2401 = 4.16%.

I'm not a stat expert, but shouldn't the chance of getting evaision or speed go up after two activations, not down? Again, not an expert on stats.

Edit: nevermind, I was being dumb.
 
The equation measures the probability of getting Speed/Evasion from Inconsistent twice in a row. You have about a 20% chance of either getting Speed or Evasion on one go, and to get them consecutively would account for another 20% on the second. 1/5 of ~20% would be ~4%. Or more accurately, what he just posted.
 
I think what the guy was asking though is how likely is it that you'll get a speed or evasion boost in either turn 1 or turn 2 if you can get two inconsistent boosts.

EDIT: misread his question but does anyone know the chance to get a boost in either over two turns.
 
I'm going to leave a handful of thoughts here on some of the presented suspects. Some of them have probably been already stated by others, but well, that's okay.

First off, Darkrai, who is in my opinion the most dangerous of the possible ubers.
The new sleep mechanic, combined with Breloom and Darkrai, along with several other less common sleepers (hypnosis politoed, spore morobareru, spore parasect, as well as a handful of sleep powder using grasses), basically necessitates running a sleep absorber (a resttalker, an insomniac, a vital spirit user, heal bell, or aromatherapy).
One of the main issues with this is that very, very few sleep absorbers can safely switch in to both breloom and darkrai, considering that between them they have nearly unresisted STABs (only heracross, toxicroak, and croagunk resist grass/fighting/dark). Even without this issue, however, no sleep absorber can even somewhat reliably counter Darkrai, factoring in bad dreams, a couple of layers of entry hazards (trivial to get, by the way, with Deo-s, nattorei, or sturdy+custap leads), and either two dark pulses or two focus blasts. The very, very few pokemon that might be able to survive are generally incapable of doing enough damage back to Darkrai to effectively counter it. Scarf Sleep Talk Heracross is a notable exception to this, but for the most part is pretty predictable, easily walled, and with team preview, trivially beaten with double switches (I bring out darkrai, then go to skarmory, for instance, just laying down more hazards to make the darkrai sweep easier later).
Because of this, Darkrai clearly needs both a sleep absorber and a separate pokemon responsible for countering Darkrai. On the switch to your separate counter, Darkrai can easily set up a Nasty Plot or a Substitute (or simply attack), all devastating options. Considering that many of the bulkiest pokemon in the game are weak to either dark (most bulky psychics or ghosts) or fighting (Blissey, Tyranitar, most steels), even without abusing the unreliability of sleep talk or the extra damage of Bad Dreams, Darkrai can often muscle through his supposed counters. Therefore Darkrai's counters (after the sleep have been absorbed by someone else) are mostly left to a handful of priority users and scarfers. Fighting priority is really the only one that scares Darkrai with his reasonable bulk, and either substitute or chople berry lets him break through these opponents. With Wobbuffet, or simply by wearing down the scarfer through repeated attacks on switches and with entry hazards, Darkrai can easily break down most revenge killers with relatively small support.

Because of all of this, I am quite confident that Darkrai should be Uber.

Next, Skymin.
Skymin is much more manageable than Darkrai. A specially defensive Zapdos (with roar, to handle subseed) beats just about everything besides Specs super effective hidden power (usually ice). Specially defensive skarmory beats everything besides hidden power fire. Nevertheless, Skymin will likely become uber. Despite having a handful of viable counters, Skymin outspeeds almost the entire metagame (with a scarf, Skymin outruns even adamant Dory in the sand). This makes it nearly impossible to revenge kill, especially considering Skymin's resists to both water and fighting, both popular priority types with Dory's prevalence. Flinch hax and special defense drops means that only quite specialized counters can expect to win reliably.

Because of this, I suspect that Skymin will be uber, albeit with not quite as much confidence.

Offensive/Lead Deoxys Forms (Deo-A, Deo-S, Deo):
As leads, they excel, although with magic mirror from espeon, fast sleeps, and other competing leads like sturdy+custap forretress, they frankly aren't overpowering there. Offensively, Deo-A is the one to talk about. It does tremendous amounts of damage to almost anything, and although it has a lot of checks, it packs very, very few counters (basically only specially defensive spiritomb with shadow sneak and pursuit). Although priority tends to hurt it a lot, extremespeed helps negate the weakness. Thankfully, a lot of its power comes from superpower and psycho boost, both of which lower its offenses. As such, Deo-A tends to be at least feasible to play around.

Nevertheless, because of the incredible power, coverage, and speed they offer, I suspect at least Deo-A will be uber, with perhaps even more confidence than with Skymin (at least skymin does have counters more viable than spiritomb. . .). Deo-S and Deo would need to be seen in a meta without Deo-A to evaluate their offensive ability accurately.

Others:
Dory: tends to be easily countered/checked by a lot of priority users and a lot of common walls, as well as weather changers. Excellent, but far from overpowering. I'd be interested in seeing if, say, chople berry or offensive spinner variations might be more broken than the more standard LO/Balloon sets, but frankly very few people run either of those.

Politoed/Ninetales: To be honest, I'm not seeing too much broken about them, despite the nice support they offer. I'm inclined to say quite good, but not broken, but have little evidence to support that.

Manaphy: Based on theorymon I would think quite possibly broken, esp. with politoed. To be frank I haven't seen enough of them abused to make a good opinion, though.

Inconsistent Abusers: They sound really, really annoying, but I haven't seen enough to make a good opinion.

Lati@s: There are a lot of really powerful special dragons, and frankly with, say, nattorei around, as well as old standards like Blissey and others, they seem fairly manageable for now.
 
Eccentric Ditto only really works if the Inconsistent user is at low health and a Sub is not up. With evasion boosts, Ditto frequently even fails to hit, giving an opportunity to stall away. Taunt users can be annoying at times, but Taunt has the chance to miss, and it lasts for almost no time at all. The astute player will switch out against a Taunt user (though really only with bad boosts), or just attack directly. The same thing goes for Encore. Static damage moves just don't usually work, again due to stalling for evasion boosts. A combination of priority + slow attacks sometimes works, but you have to act very quickly. Tricking a Choice item to an Inconsistent user effectively shuts it down. Kudos to you if you manage to do that! Spite is a neat idea, but it Inconsistent users will not be affected that much. Surf and Toxic really have more PP than necessary. It is generally a good idea to get anything with Inconsistent out of play as quickly as possible.

It doesn't matter too much if Eccentric Ditto hits or not if the Inconsistent Pokemon doesn't have an attacking move. If it runs Sub/Protect/Toxic, it has AT BEST one attacking move. Ditto has a significant chance that Ditto will outspeed the Pokemon it copies following it's switch (Ditto speeds up while Opponent does not, Opponent slows down while Ditto does not, Ditto speeds up and Opponent slow down, Equal Speed and Speed Tie Favors Ditto) allowing it Sub itself against the mono-attacker or prevent Toxic I believe about 50% of the time (can't do probability in my head). Ditto's only real concern (assuming the astute player myself now: Ditto user is not going to switch it in against a sub) is PP stalling which may or may not be possible depending on the length of the battle.

As for Taunting, yes it can miss, but I'm theorymonning. It it still competitively viable and lasts long enough for a Mischievous Heart user. Trick again, is hard to pull off, but is still competitively viable.

Perish Song is an option.

Spite still drastically shortens those moves lifespan from 16 turns to a measly 4 (1 for use, 4 more for Spite = 5. 16/5 + 16%5 = 4). Kind of Niche use but it's still an option and Sableye gets Priority by Mischievous Heart.

A Poison type is actually plausible: Octillery's Sub/Protect/E. Ball/Toxic is WALLED by generic Poisons. Generic Poisons. I'm not even naming a specific one. Gengar is competitvely viable, spin-blocks, learns Perish Song, has a large enough movepool to care less about Taunt while also learning it itself, has a Normal, Fighting, and Ground Immunity and is pretty damn cool anyway. It learns Shadow Punch if you're THAT annoyed by Evasiveness boosts, Sucker Punch for Priority, learns Psych Up if you want to COPY the boosts, Magic Coat... I'm gonna stop. It's by no means the bulkiest pokemon, but could easily hold a niche for stopping Inconsistent users with either a partially dedicated or entirely dedicated move-set.

Roar and Whirlwind work if Ingrain hasn't been passed. It's already competitively viable and is particularly useful if they've been stalling for awhile. Skarmory gets a special mention for Walling Octi's set.

Destiny Bond might work. It doesn't have too much PP, however and you'd have to know when you're going to die. Of course, if you ARE gonna die, it doesn't exactly matter how much PP the move has when you die.

Feint hits through Protect, and hits even if they AREN'T Protecting.

Haze undoes the madness (sort of: they'll gain a new turn of boosts).
Gastro Acid nullifies the ability entirely. Bonus of being competitively viable by working like a make-shift Mold Breaker (makes Zapdos' Lightning Rod USELESS, etc.). 16 PP is not the best but still useful.

Edit: I'm not trying to take this off topic because it seems like this post kind of does (or at least makes it extremely specialized to one scenario). I guess I'm trying to say that wide-sweeping decisions shouldn't be made because we can't think of an immediately sensible counter to something. Like I said, there ARE Pokemon that completely wall Octerillery's move-set, but they will still hate Octi once it has set-up.
 
1 Inconsistent activation, Spe/Evasion only boost: 2/7 (boost) * 5/7 (other stats decrease) = 10/49, or about 20%.
2 Inconsistent activations: (10/49)^2 = 100/2401 = 4.16%.

Actually, I wanted to know the chances of having at least one of the stats boosted after two turns, and not having any of them at -1. One turn seems to be 23.8% so, two Inconsistent activations would be 10/49 + (39/49 * 10/49) = 880/2401 = 36.7%...?


EDIT -- Oh, outsped by NC.
 
I was wondering if pairing wobbuffet with one of these could be useful since even with the encore nerf you only really need the turn to set up Sub then you can continually stall for evasion and speed boosts. I haven't tested it yet but I would imagine you're pretty much forced to attack wobb and sacrifice your pokemon or let the opponet set up a sub with an inconsistent user.
 
Here is how I found the chance of getting at least +2 to speed or evasion over two turns.

First we consider the chance Inconsistent raises either speed or evasion twice in a row, giving +4 to either.

(2/7)*(1/7) = 2/49

Then we consider the chance that it raises them both, one in each turn. From this situation, we must subtract the chance that it lowers each of them as well, leaving you with +1 Speed +1 Evasion after two turns.

(2/7)*(1/7) = 2/49
2/49*(1-(1/6)^2) = 2/49*35/36 = 5/126

Now we consider the chance Speed or Evasion is increased in one turn but neither in the other, and that the stat increased is not decreased by inconsistent in the other turn. (Leaving you with +2 in either Speed or Evasion as well as miscellaneous other statistics)

2*(2/7)*(5/7) = 20/49
20/49*5/6 = 50/147

The total chance is 2/49 + 5/126 + 50/147 = 53/126 = 42% (Yes, seriously, almost exactly 42%)
 
After seeing serious debate on the potentially broken aspects of Octillery, Bibarel, Jumpluff(lol), and a host of other former crap Pokemon, and actually playing on PO for the first time, I have my own thoughts.
1) The metagame will always reach equilibrium given time. This may be a "broken" equilibrium, revolving around one Pokemon and one playstyle, but it is an equilibrium nonetheless.
2) BW will not reach a broken equilibrium. As evidenced by the placement of Latios in UU in Beta, no single threat can be "the best." There are too many overpowered Pokemon to revolve around one entirely. In that regard, this is the greatest metagame possible, withal many different strategies to use and abuse that creativity can go a long way.
3) OU will cease to exist for all practical purposes. There are too many "broken" Pokemon to ban. We will end up with two things: a host of Pokemon banned to Ubers, none of them powerful enough to compete; a dead zone for the slightly broken Pokemon. This possibility will be accompanied by a "balanced" OU that will make whatever strategies the people in Policy Review are currently favoring dominant.
The other possibility, is that an OU tier, radically different than DPPt OU, will arise that will be heavily offensive and similar to the Dream World Tier. A huge, and still powerful BL tier will arise out of the "obviously OU Pokes" who just can't keep up. Thus, the OU of Fourth Gen is about to radically change, and anything that would have previously been broken, might be pretty terrible now. No old assumptions may stand.

Just some thoughts. You may not agree with me, but I ask you to consider this OU a different world than any OU of the past.
Thank you for your time.
 
Inconsistent abusers pretty much always run sub, and eccentric fails against sub, so ditto cannot counter inconsistent.

And you don't necessarily need speed or evasion- a boost in the proper defense can also help greatly (I've done major damage with an octillery with less than 25% health left and no evasion boosts because even zapdos's tbolt couldn't ko it.
 
I think he means that many of the current OU pokemon will be banned to ubers and wont be powerful enough to compete in the uber tier.
 
On the subject of Inconsistent, the "but we haven't banned abilities before!" argument is incredibly flawed and kind of arrogant, because it assumes the "we" in question are perfect AND clairvoyant. Doing something one way at some point does NOT logically mean you MUST do it that way forever. If there's a serious problem and the current method doesn't address it, the proper response is not "oh well we've never dealt with this before, so we'll just ignore it because the policy made years before we knew this thing would exist doesn't account for it", the proper response is to re-evaluate the method being used. Inconsistent clearly breaks evasion clause in spirit no matter how much you want to argue that the specific wording from two generations before abilities even existed doesn't include it (Acupressure is much the same way). I really don't see how anyone can justify allowing Inconsistent, but accepting Evasion Clause, when the former clearly embodies everything the latter is supposed to prevent.
 
After seeing serious debate on the potentially broken aspects of Octillery, Bibarel, Jumpluff(lol), and a host of other former crap Pokemon, and actually playing on PO for the first time, I have my own thoughts.
1) The metagame will always reach equilibrium given time. This may be a "broken" equilibrium, revolving around one Pokemon and one playstyle, but it is an equilibrium nonetheless.
2) BW will not reach a broken equilibrium. As evidenced by the placement of Latios in UU in Beta, no single threat can be "the best." There are too many overpowered Pokemon to revolve around one entirely. In that regard, this is the greatest metagame possible, withal many different strategies to use and abuse that creativity can go a long way.
3) OU will cease to exist for all practical purposes. There are too many "broken" Pokemon to ban. We will end up with two things: a host of Pokemon banned to Ubers, none of them powerful enough to compete; a dead zone for the slightly broken Pokemon. This possibility will be accompanied by a "balanced" OU that will make whatever strategies the people in Policy Review are currently favoring dominant.
The other possibility, is that an OU tier, radically different than DPPt OU, will arise that will be heavily offensive and similar to the Dream World Tier. A huge, and still powerful BL tier will arise out of the "obviously OU Pokes" who just can't keep up. Thus, the OU of Fourth Gen is about to radically change, and anything that would have previously been broken, might be pretty terrible now. No old assumptions may stand.

Just some thoughts. You may not agree with me, but I ask you to consider this OU a different world than any OU of the past.
Thank you for your time.

A lot of this mirrors what I think actually. Last gen, UU pokes were sometimes useable in OU to perform certain tasks unique to them. This gen, I think this will be compounded. So many old UU/NU pokes got boosts to be useable in OU. Nidoking might very well end up in UU again. However, with encourage, it is still OU able, even if it isn't doryuuzu strong. Don't know how much I agree with "too many broken pokes", but we are in for a lot of change when tiers go up and the standard metagame balances.
 
Inconsistent abusers pretty much always run sub, and eccentric fails against sub, so ditto cannot counter inconsistent.

And you don't necessarily need speed or evasion- a boost in the proper defense can also help greatly (I've done major damage with an octillery with less than 25% health left and no evasion boosts because even zapdos's tbolt couldn't ko it.

Ditto can counter an inconsistent user the turn after it's Substitute has been broken (by switching which has priority over any move not named Pursuit). Ditto can run Lum Berry if it's THAT concerned over a Toxic on the switch. If Substitute is still up, Ditto can't switch in and counter.

Sorry, I thought I made this clear already.
 
Indeed. I still think we should have unbanned everything. But even if we're just going to test suspects, we need to let the metagame stabilize first- after all, look at the recent discovery of inconsistent abuse (which should be banned, if not because of/just for brokeness for hax as well). We can't really say if skymin, darkrai, et all are really broken yet.

Even if ditto has a scarf and toxic's, then it still needs to hit. Toxic only has 85% accuracy to begin with, so if Octillery has more evasion boosts than accuracy boosts, it still has a very good chance to get a sub up.

And you also need to break the sub. easier said then done. And if you break it and switch out, then octillery can just sub on the switch and prevent you from toxicing, so to be sure you need to break it and die on the same turn.
 
We can't really say if skymin, darkrai, et all are really broken yet.

i can tell you right now they are broken. Certain pokemon are too good to be used, at least in a OU tier, just because they aren't usable in ubers doesn't mean they are ok to put in to OU.
 
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