np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

[Chomper The Sharptooth]

no i was refering 2 manaphy + kingdra (2 a lesser extent) in that post.

also the last thing i'm in the mood 2 do right after school is work w/ the only reason i have a weak subject.

After school I'm not in the mood to read gibberish. It's somewhere in the rules, I'd look it up to copy-paste but paste is making everything crash, that close to proper English should be used.

That being said, I don't understand why we *have* to ban the weaker drought if drizzle is banned (which it shouldn't yet). We don't have an obligation to be fair to the different weathers as some people think we do, if one is broken and the rest are fine then keep the ones that aren't broken. That and Snow Cloak/Sand Veil aren't broken, seriously. It's a risk management game, some risk will be involved. It may screw you over some rare times, but having only one check for Garchomp is asking for it.

 

[masterful]

no i was refering 2 manaphy + kingdra (2 a lesser extent) in that post.

also the last thing i'm in the mood 2 do right after school is work w/ the only reason i have a weak subject.

You should at least make an adequate effort to use proper syntax and word choice, or what you write will be completely nonsensical. Seriously.

The only real problem I have with rain teams is that, with perma-rain up, there are so few counters. Shell Breakers alone are so incredibly hard to deal with, specifically Cloyster. If it is running Ice Shard, you must have a very bulky water like Suicune on your team, or you most likely lose. If it's running Rock Blast, then you need Breloom. Unless your bulky water is at close to full HP, it can probably power through you

 

[XienZo]

You should at least make an adequate effort to use proper syntax and word choice, or what you write will be completely nonsensical. Seriously.

The only real problem I have with rain teams is that, with perma-rain up, there are so few counters. Shell Breakers alone are so incredibly hard to deal with, specifically Cloyster. If it is running Ice Shard, you must have a very bulky water like Suicune on your team, or you most likely lose. If it's running Rock Blast, then you need Breloom. Unless your bulky water is at close to full HP, it can probably power through you

You could just not let Cloyster set up in the first place.

Not to mention all of those problems don't have much to do with rain; Cloyster gains absolutely nothing from rain except a boosted Hydro Pump/Shell Blade. The problematic coverage moves aren't affected by rain whatsoever.

 

[masterful]

You could just not let Cloyster set up in the first place.

Not to mention all of those problems don't have much to do with rain; Cloyster gains absolutely nothing from rain except a boosted Hydro Pump/Shell Blade. The problematic coverage moves aren't affected by rain whatsoever.

What I am saying is that Cloyster can cover Rain's weaknesses well, and the bossted Hydro Pump means he can invest pretty much entirely in attack also, saying "Just don't let him set up" is absurd. Pokemon can get set up on. Like say you have a Nattorei and you finish something of with Gyro Ball. Cloyster switches in. You can't stop it from setting up, as a neutral Gyro Ball to something with that high defense will do very little, and then your team gets swept

 

[Fluffy Otters]

You should at least make an adequate effort to use proper syntax and word choice, or what you write will be completely nonsensical. Seriously.

The only real problem I have with rain teams is that, with perma-rain up, there are so few counters. Shell Breakers alone are so incredibly hard to deal with, specifically Cloyster. If it is running Ice Shard, you must have a very bulky water like Suicune on your team, or you most likely lose. If it's running Rock Blast, then you need Breloom. Unless your bulky water is at close to full HP, it can probably power through you

Cloyster Shell Break has nothing to do with rain and swift swim (although it does easily abuse it) but it is an insane Shell Breaker, that's for certain. He's insanely scary without a very bulky water or Breloom (who does ohko after the defense drop, short of that, priority won't really work especially since Cloyster would just Ice Shard you) and Nattorei/Skarmory won't work since Icicle Spear does insane damage and nearly ohkoes after Shell Break. I don't get the point of Rock Blast other than for other Cloysters, Lapras (only in rain), and Ditto but that just leaves you open to Hitmontop/Breloom priority (Roopushin needs Guts to have any effectiveness as a Mach Puncher I've realized which explains why some run Flame Orb although I don't like the thought of that stealing from Roopushin's bulkiness and losing Leftovers as well). Icicle Spear hits everything else rock would and better because of stab on each hit as well.

Huntail and Gorebyss are also fearsome Shell Breakers since not only can they sweep, they can pass but nothing is really going to take Hydro Pump from Shell Break Gorebyss/Omastar (who is a lot like Gorebyss except different typing and slightly stronger and faster-ish, although after Swift Swim Shell Break, nothing is outrunning either). Huntail hits on the physical and passes, or it can go mixed. Nattorei is 2 hit koed by boosted Hydro Pump (although then they'll die since they used a turn Shell Smashing. But then Nattorei won't be able to really take anything else anymore either. It can also ohko bold Blissey with Stealth Rock and it is a guaranteed 2 hit ko on Calm.

 

[XienZo]

What I am saying is that Cloyster can cover Rain's weaknesses well, and the bossted Hydro Pump means he can invest pretty much entirely in attack also, saying "Just don't let him set up" is absurd. Pokemon can get set up on. Like say you have a Nattorei and you finish something of with Gyro Ball. Cloyster switches in. You can't stop it from setting up, as a neutral Gyro Ball to something with that high defense will do very little, and then your team gets swept

Power Whip, on the other hand, would deal 120 BP SE damage on a -1 Cloyster, since you'll go second.

Regardless, basically, Cloyster in rain is basically going to have the same weaknesses as a Cloyster outside of rain. As you said, it can invest more in attack, but that's about it.

 

[masterful]

Power Whip, on the other hand, would deal 120 BP SE damage on a -1 Cloyster, since you'll go second.

Regardless, basically, Cloyster in rain is basically going to have the same weaknesses as a Cloyster outside of rain. As you said, it can invest more in attack, but that's about it.

Cloyster out of rain is still OP. Granted, some pokes like Power Whip Nattorei won't be set up on, but there are other pokes like Hippowdon or say Blissey who would easily be set up on or OHKOed. What I am saying is that, along with many other Swift Swim abusers, Cloyster is overpowered, even more so with perma-rain

 

[dragonmaster951753]

After school I'm not in the mood to read gibberish. It's somewhere in the rules, I'd look it up to copy-paste but paste is making everything crash, that close to proper English should be used.

That being said, I don't understand why we *have* to ban the weaker drought if drizzle is banned (which it shouldn't yet). We don't have an obligation to be fair to the different weathers as some people think we do, if one is broken and the rest are fine then keep the ones that aren't broken. That and Snow Cloak/Sand Veil aren't broken, seriously. It's a risk management game, some risk will be involved. It may screw you over some rare times, but having only one check for Garchomp is asking for it.

So on top of having checks and counters for the 4 weathers we have to run two checks for garchomp alone? i really want to know team can truly counter every weather on top of the luck of sand veil/snow cloat, AND still can handle other threats like darkrai, latios, trick room, cause no one should have to put TWO checks for one specific pokemon.

 

[masterful]

So on top of having checks and counters for the 4 weathers we have to run two checks for garchomp alone? i really want to know team can truly counter every weather on top of the luck of sand veil/snow cloat, AND still can handle other threats like darkrai, latios, trick room, cause no one should have to put TWO checks for one specific pokemon.

It really isn't possible to reliably counter every possibility. The point of suspect testing is to remove the most broken threats with the fewest counters so that teams can reliably counter most other threats. Pokes like Garchomp have no real counters without taking into consideration the actual outcomes of matches. Garchomp can be powered through, or stalled out if need be. When every move has at best the accuracy of Fail Edge, it is difficult to counter reliably without a team that is well supported

 

[fidgety]

It really isn't possible to reliably counter every possibility. The point of suspect testing is to remove the most broken threats with the fewest counters so that teams can reliably counter most other threats. Pokes like Garchomp have no real counters without taking into consideration the actual outcomes of matches. Garchomp can be powered through, or stalled out if need be. When every move has at best the accuracy of Fail Edge, it is difficult to counter reliably without a team that is well supported

um u realize chomps sweeping set generally looks like this give or take:
swords dance
dragon claw/outrage
earthquake
fire fang/stone edge

unresisted by any existing poke + jolly 252 speed it sits @ 333 speed and @ +2 attack it has 718 attack but since it can be out-sped by mare viable pokes + there is rotom 2 eat a +2 dc + wow back among other pokes it isn't as bad as i've heard it was last gen.

 

[XienZo]

Cloyster out of rain is still OP. Granted, some pokes like Power Whip Nattorei won't be set up on, but there are other pokes like Hippowdon or say Blissey who would easily be set up on or OHKOed. What I am saying is that, along with many other Swift Swim abusers, Cloyster is overpowered, even more so with perma-rain

But it's not a Swift Swim abuser, and perma rain doesn't help it significantly.

Basically, it's fairly irrelevant as far as rain discussion goes, since it'd be essentially just as dangerous even without rain.

 

[masterful]

But it's not a Swift Swim abuser, and perma rain doesn't help it significantly.

Basically, it's fairly irrelevant as far as rain discussion goes, since it'd be essentially just as dangerous even without rain.

So what? I'm not discussing rain with you. You are discussing Cloyster. Cloyster is OP, more so in rain. Swift Swim abusers are OP with perma-rain. That's about it.

 

[masterful]

um u realize chomps sweeping set generally looks like this give or take:
swords dance
dragon claw/outrage
earthquake
fire fang/stone edge

unresisted by any existing poke + jolly 252 speed it sits @ 333 speed and @ +2 attack it has 718 attack but since it can be out-sped by mare viable pokes + there is rotom 2 eat a +2 dc + wow back among other pokes it isn't as bad as i've heard it was last gen.

So I am going to take that post simply as a rejection of common knowledge pertaining to logical sentence structure and syntax

 

[Icy Vegeta]

So I am going to take that post simply as a rejection of common knowledge pertaining to logical sentence structure and syntax

You forgot the period at the end there my friend.

On-topic: Cloyster is indeed very powerful, however; I believe that Cloyster can be fairly reliably countered by the more prominent Grass-types out there.

 

[masterful]

You forgot the period at the end there my friend.

On-topic: Cloyster is indeed very powerful, however; I believe that Cloyster can be fairly reliably countered by the more prominent Grass-types out there.

Like what?

 

[fidgety]

So I am going to take that post simply as a rejection of common knowledge pertaining to logical sentence structure and syntax

i believe you said chomp has to use edge.

 

[masterful]

i believe you said chomp has to use edge.

Definitely did not. Read the post, boy

 

[alphatron]

You forgot the period at the end there my friend.

On-topic: Cloyster is indeed very powerful, however; I believe that Cloyster can be fairly reliably countered by the more prominent Grass-types out there.

Save for Evo stone tesshido, I don't think there is any grass type that isn't at least 2HKO'd by Icicle spear.

 

[masterful]

Save for Evo stone tesshido, I don't think there is any grass type that isn't at least 2HKO'd by Icicle spear.

And we all know how popular THAT is. I'm actually somewhat surprised it isn't 2hkoed

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Save for Evo stone tesshido, I don't think there is any grass type that isn't at least 2HKO'd by Icicle spear.

If it isn't part Steel or water (or water/Ice), I don't think there is anything that will survive an attack period. I'm not quite sure what the Nattorei prevolve would do to Cloyster with base 50 attack. And it is 2 hit koed.

Adamant +2 Life Orb Cloyster Icicle Spear to Prevo Stone Tess
81.51-96.48% (The thing has horrible hp)

 

[Aqueos]

If it isn't part Steel or water (or water/Ice), I don't think there is anything that will survive an attack period. I'm not quite sure what the Nattorei prevolve would do to Cloyster with base 50 attack. And it is 2 hit koed.

Use thunder wave. What good does Cloyster do if it is slower than molasses :P

 

[Fluffy Otters]

Use thunder wave. What good does Cloyster do if it is slower than molasses :P

It could still be somewhat threatening with Ice Shard (but much easier to take than say Icicle Spear) and if it had damage from another attack, it's dead if it comes in on Shell Smash. Ice Shard would finish it off. And there is Aromatherapy/Heal Bell users (not many but some. Umbreon, Chansey, etc).

 

[fidgety]

Use thunder wave. What good does Cloyster do if it is slower than molasses :P

good 4 u if u can spare a move slot HEAVY OFFENSE cannot generally either cloister is a lead + gets taunted by deoxys b4 it can set up or it is raped by hazards in my expeirence.

 

[SlimMan]

For people saying to ban Swift Swim as opposed to Drizzle.

1) Doesn't that fact that Swift Swim isn't the only "broken" thing seem suspicious. Manaphy is broken as well, due to Drizzle. Clearly, rain makes multiple things "broken". So why ban every little thing instead of a single ban which would alleviate the need to neuter many other pokemon. People are basically saying that we should ban a bunch of things broken in rain, simply so that rain can exist.

2) This goes in with the above. If Smogon likes to ban as few things as possible, then why shouldn't we do that. If we ban Drizzle, Politoed is neutered and Rain Stall dies. If we ban Swift Swim, many mons are neutered and Rain Offense dies. Either way, a playstyle dies, but we neuter fewer mons by banning Drizzle. We end up with fewer bans and and a just-as-good end result.

3) Analogy time. Inconsistent Bibarel is broken, right? However, pretend that when we ban Inconsistent, Simple turns out to be broken. We could ban it, since Bibarel also has Unaware. But the fact that more than one ability would be broken on it suggests that it is Bibarel which is broken, not the abilities on it. Now, we don't ban pokemon+ability combos, so this analogy seems flawed. But my point remains intact. Repeating number 1, if mulyiple things are broken in rain, then perhaps rain is the broken thing.

I may have been repetitive, but I'm trying to say that banning Speed boosting abilities would be a dire mistake in this stage of metagame-development.

 

[fidgety]

For people saying to ban Swift Swim as opposed to Drizzle.

1) Doesn't that fact that Swift Swim isn't the only "broken" thing seem suspicious. Manaphy is broken as well, due to Drizzle. Clearly, rain makes multiple things "broken". So why ban every little thing instead of a single ban which would alleviate the need to neuter many other pokemon. People are basically saying that we should ban a bunch of things broken in rain, simply so that rain can exist.

2) This goes in with the above. If Smogon likes to ban as few things as possible, then why shouldn't we do that. If we ban Drizzle, Politoed is neutered and Rain Stall dies. If we ban Swift Swim, many mons are neutered and Rain Offense dies. Either way, a playstyle dies, but we neuter fewer mons by banning Drizzle. We end up with fewer bans and and a just-as-good end result.

3) Analogy time. Inconsistent Bibarel is broken, right? However, pretend that when we ban Inconsistent, Simple turns out to be broken. We could ban it, since Bibarel also has Unaware. But the fact that more than one ability would be broken on it suggests that it is Bibarel which is broken, not the abilities on it. Now, we don't ban pokemon+ability combos, so this analogy seems flawed. But my point remains intact. Repeating number 1, if mulyiple things are broken in rain, then perhaps rain is the broken thing.

I may have been repetitive, but I'm trying to say that banning Speed boosting abilities would be a dire mistake in this stage of metagame-development.

thank u this is approach i've been sugesting. we can't get 2 ban happy yet or there will be consequenses.
but i say manaphy + kingdra if necessary + keep drizzletoad as removing it condemns a large # of pokes