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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?

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Arc Tech said:
EDIT@above: Flash cannon is not a situational move. There is not one pokemon that it is better against than another move, nor is there a certain group of important pokemon it hits where you would need two moves otherwise.
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That's like saying you should never use Brick Break on Scizor, because Superpower hits things the same coverage-wise, and is stronger. Actually, it's not like that, but w/e.



How about we all just agree that Latios is a better "all-purpose dragon" and Hydreigon should only be used when your team would benefit from its specific assets (such as Flamethrower, not-Pursuit weak, Earth Power, etc.). If you're not using it for those things, then you should be using Latios.
 
Everyone benefits from not being Pursuit weak. I think it might be more appropriate to consider Hydre the default, with Latios being used if you need its speed, Fighting resist, or Psycho Shock, which is most of the time.
 
Thorhammer said:
Everyone benefits from not being Pursuit weak. I think it might be more appropriate to consider Hydre the default, with Latios being used if you need its speed, Fighting resist, or Psycho Shock, which is most of the time.
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Latios has far better speed, essentially identical coverage, resistance to Mach Punch, and better bulk. It is the default. There aren't that many Pursuiters in this meta, tbh, and speed is much more valuable. Hydre has somewhat situational usefulness, but it is far from being better then Latios
 
Pursuit users: Tyranitar, Scizor
Less common users: Excavalier, Krookodile

Mach Punch users: Breloom, Conkeldurr
Less common users: Infernape, Hitmontop

Not seeing how pursuit is less common than mach punch. Pursuit is by far more dangerous as you are trapped by it whereas you can see mach punch coming a mile away and just switch out.
 
ehh

I'd nominate Reuniclus seeing as it can either destroy stall or destroy Offence depending on the set. Maybe it's just me that struggles with it though.
 
astrohawke said:
I want to say blaziken. I don't know what counters it to be honest. OHKOs everything after a SD.
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The thing about Blaziken is that if it runs a coverage move, it will be outpaced by faster scarfers. If it runs Protect to outrun these in the second boost, it doesn't have the coverage option. It can be a nightmare for stall though.
 
Those scarfers may have to catch him on the revenge, though, since I sure as fuck don't want to go switching things into HJK willy nilly.
 
IcyMan28 said:
The thing about Blaziken is that if it runs a coverage move, it will be outpaced by faster scarfers. If it runs Protect to outrun these in the second boost, it doesn't have the coverage option. It can be a nightmare for stall though.
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It's still retarded because are you expected to have 3 different pokemon in anticipation for 3 different sets that differ by 1 move?

SJCrew said:
Those scarfers may have to catch him on the revenge, though, since I sure as fuck don't want to go switching things into HJK willy nilly.
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That's another thing because by the time it's killed something and you bring the scarfer in to revenge it, it's at +2 or +3 and you're no longer outspeeding it.
 
astrohawke said:
I want to say blaziken. I don't know what counters it to be honest. OHKOs everything after a SD.
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List of pokemon who handle a +2/+2 Blaziken:
Gliscor
Hippowdon

Between Shadow Claw and Stone Edge, those two are pretty much the only guaranteed ones to beat it.
But if it forgoes a coverage move for Protect, then that list gets a whole lot longer.
 
True, you need to be damn sure its not the Mixed set either as that 2HKOs everything by spamming its STABs alone.

And if you are revenging Blaze rather than switching into its SD, you better be able to outrun it at +2, otherwise it will be faster than you. Also, Gliscor and Hippo can be OHKOd by +2 Flare Blitz and HJK respectively.
 
SlimMan said:
List of pokemon who handle a +2/+2 Blaziken:
Gliscor
Hippowdon

Between Shadow Claw and Stone Edge, those two are the only guaranteed ones to beat it.
But if it forgoes a coverage move for Protect, then that list gets a whole lot longer.
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"guaranteed" not really.

+2 LO HJK vs max/max Hippo: 87.1-102.9%
+2 LO Flare Blitz vs max/max Gliscor: 91.8-108.5%

You're hoping your walls haven't taken any damage and SR/Spikes aren't on the field.
 
...
I just realized where I went wrong. In my calcs, I didn't set it to +2...
:facepalm:


So ignoring my n00bish mistake, I've found Hitmontop to be a good check for Blaziken.
TechniTop using Fake Out + Mach Punch does 83.4%-98.3%. Almost certain to KO with Stealth Rock, or even after one LO damage.
 
IcyMan28 said:
The cost Latios incurs when running Modest is far worse than the cost Hydreigon incurs when doing the same; Hydreigon can actually pull it off to reasonable success.
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The two statements here are unrelated; the first is correct, since the number of threats that Latios fails to outsides with Modest that it manages to outsides with Timid is greater than Hydreigon doing the same; however, Hydreigon being in a 'lower speed tier' has absolutely no bearing on its effectiveness with a Modest nature; if Timid Latios is better than Timid Hydreigon stat-wise, that does not mean that Modest Hydra is suddenly better than Modest Latios - that's just flawed logic. The reason Modest>Timid on Hydreigon is because he cannot utiilise Timid properly, not that he's somehow superior with Modest. If we consider stats alone (since that was the justification used for Modest being viable on Hydreigon), then the heirarchy is Timid Latios > Modest Latios > Modest Hydreigon > Timid

EDIT: gah, the conversation's moved on. I meant to post this last night and forgot :\
 
I think Blaziken is a good shout to be tested. It needs to be revenge killed, and even that won't work if it carries Protect - I suppose an argument could be made for his 4 moveslot syndrome, and that he can only hit one threat (e.g. it can't effectively take on both Lati@s and Gyarados) but it has a way around every threat (e.g. it can carry HP for specific threats like Gyarados; it can carry Shadow Claw for Burungeru and Lati twins (not sure how much a +2 will do to them).

I think he's definitely worth considering as a suspect. These tests are using standard Adamant 252Attack Blaziken:

+1 Stone Edge to max/max Gyarados - 93.9 - 110.7% (Over 50% chance to KO, OHKO with SR)
+2 Flare Blitz to max/max Gliscor - 91.8 -108.5% (KO with SR)
+2 Shadow Claw to max/max Burungeru - 91.6 - 107.9% (KO with SR)
+2 Shadow Claw to any Lati twin is a OHKO with SR at least. Only the bulkiest can hope to survive.
+2 Hi Jump Kick to max/max Garchomp - OHKO without SR
+2 Hi Jump Kick to max/max Swampert - OHKO without SR
+2 Hi Jump Kick to max/max Suicune - OHKO with SR (92.8 - 109.4%)
+2 Flare Blitz to max/max Evo Stone Dusclops - 74.3-87.7% but then again what is your standard Evo Stone Dusclops going to do back?
+2 Hi Jump Kick to max/max Rotom-W - 86.2-101.6% (good chance to OHKO with SR)
+2 Stone Edge to max/max Dragonite - 75.6-89.1% (OHKO with SR)

These calculations show how ridiculously easy it is to set up a sweep with Blaziken alone. Outside of SR, he needs very little support, and even common revenge killers can't come back and finish him due to his new ability. He takes about 25% from CB Scizor Bullet Punch; unlike Dory it can survive several Mach Punches from max attack Roobushin. It'll still struggle with Aqua Jet and Extremespeed users, but other than that, Blaziken can take most priority nicely.

Recoil damage takes its toll on Blaziken, and with SR up on the other side, repeated Flare Blitzes and life orb recoil means that it will likely go down before completing a full sweep - but relying on such a method to take down Blaziken will usually mean it has already taken down at least 2 of your Pokemon.
 
I have faced a few Blaziken and he has never really caused me an issue. Part of the reason is that I have been running Gravity a lot lately which negates High Jump Kick from being used but even when Gravity is down I can usually get around it (probably because with Vaporeon and Dusclops I am safe). I think the risky thing about Blaziken is that it relys on HJK so often that it can be played into your advantage either by double switching into ghosts or throwing up a protect.
 
Blaziken also benefits more than any poke from Wobbuffet + pursuit user support, since it can take care of Ghosts who'd like to switch in on HJK, as well as some of his best checks (Latis, Burungeru), allowing him to run a different coverage move on the last slot. The only reason Blaziken hasn't ripped the metagame to shreds just yet is due to one of his best counters running rampant (Latios). Ninetails support would also mean he can get past the likes of Gliscor without resorting to the recoil-causing FB. It WILL break OU if both Latis get banned.
 
I don't know, I also haven't had much trouble with Blaziken, and I've fought a ton. Maybe the players were just stupid but they usually use Protect while I switch to a counter right away and simply EQ or Surf. Scarf Starmie actually resist both STABs and can outspeed either Blaziken at +1.

I think its four moveslots and frailty mean it's strong, but not Uber worthy. It's no Darkrai or Shaymin-S that's for sure.

And aside from possibly Landlos and Manaphy during Drizzle, I can't really thing of anything that is worth banning. Possibly Wobbuffet but people don't even use him, Bad stigma.
 
Latios isn't its best counter as it's still going to die from +2 shadow claw even stone edge as they don't usually run defensive sets. Also no one uses scarf starmie who btw is still 2HKOed by +0 HJK and almost OHKOed by +0 shadow claw but I guess the surprise factor can work for people who expect to outspeed and OHKO you at +1 speed.

The most dangerous set by far is LO, SD/HJK/FB/coverage(SE or SC) which I don't see much of which could be the reason people are not seeing this as a huge threat atm. I've also come up again a fair amount with sash or balloon or blaze kick and they can be walled. But seriously ones using LO + SD flare blitz/HJK will die from recoil but not before it takes 2-3 pokemon with it. And this is without sun support.

It's also not that fragile.
 
Blaziken doesn't fall to priority either, seeing as CB E-speed from D-nite does 60% max. Due to the commodity of Nattorei (around 20% usage), he also has a poke he can safely switch in and set up on once every 5 battles. The whole concept of "revenge-killing" Blaziken is flawed, seeing as he outspeeds Scarfchomp at +2, while he can carry Baloon to stop Dorry. As long as one can take out opposing ghosts, HJK destroys everything that doesn't resist it, while FB/SE take care of the rest. He really is a faster, stronger, and less frail Infernape, definately test-worthy. Now that rain has been nerfed and his STAB isn't weakened, the SD set is horrifying with SR on the field.
 
TBH i myself find ken more test worthy than rankurusu. In theory, ken sound so unstoppable to me. not like i have trouble with him but yeah. SD, 123 base and STAB at that power is so deadly with Speed Boost. meanwhile in mydays, ranky is either : esca OHKO, cnat stand teh combo of Exca EQ + attack, or shut by hippowdon(for OTR 3 Attack)
 
Stone Edge is definitely the better option on Blaziken, IMO. Latios takes a bucketload from Stone Edge as it is, while you can use it to hit Gyarados and Salamence, two Pokemon that could Blaziken much more problems than Latios ever would.

I would support a Blaziken test, it's so annoying to try and stop. You'll have to send in your check immediately if you want to stop it sweeping, and there's nothing stopping your opponent from just spamming an attack, switch out and then coming in later to sweep, ESPECIALLY with Nattorei being spammed from left to right.
 
I've seen far fewer Nattorei this round actually (but a lot more Skarm, so...).

Why hasn't Excadrill / Doryuuzu been mentioned once on this page?
 
astrohawke said:
Pursuit users: Tyranitar, Scizor
Less common users: Excavalier, Krookodile

Mach Punch users: Breloom, Conkeldurr
Less common users: Infernape, Hitmontop

Not seeing how pursuit is less common than mach punch. Pursuit is by far more dangerous as you are trapped by it whereas you can see mach punch coming a mile away and just switch out.
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Availability does not equate to usage. Exca is really outclassed by scizor at this point, and I see very little of him OR Scizor. On the other hand, Breloom usage is pretty high, as is Conkeldurr. Tyranitar is common, however many of his commonly used sets don't even USE Pursuit, opting to go as leads and/or lures
 
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