I'm just saying that unless your team really is weak to dark and needs a special scarfer (or U-turner), that is the only time he is really more useful than Latios
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np: OU Suspect Testing Round 2 - Who am I to break tradition?
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Or, not and.
Any one of the three possibilities you listed could be enough for Hydre to be used over Latios, and they all apply to plenty of teams.
I don't really see why you are hating on Hydregion so unconditionally. The only clear advantage Latias has over Hydregion is a superior speed stat. In return, Hydregion has a superior movepool, which allows it to fit much more easily into a team and provide the proper support, such as focus blast to take out t-tar and such. Hydregion's great movepool plus great offensive stats on both sides of the spectrum also allows it much more versatility than Latias, who usually just spams specs DM.
But I agree that Latias is a better choice user. IMO, Hydregion is best being able to abuse it's wide movepool to the max and surprising opponents with "non-standard" sets such as physically based mix.
Not to change the topic or anything, but I have a question.
How far do we go in implementing Ability Combination bans?
I think it's a question we should all be thinking about given the recent implementation of Aldaron's Proposal. After some discussion in the Drizzle + SwSw ban thread, some have suggested that the proposal be extended to include Manaphy.
Looking over the suspect nominations, there were various calls to extrapolate the proposal for rain into Sand so that Excadrill and Landorus could be used while simultaneously maintaining a balanced, desirable metagame.
This situation applies almost exclusively to weather abilities, as no other abilities are providing so much support to other pokemon in a passive way. And from the looks of this thread post-voting, nearly all qualms with rain have literally been washed away and died down, which may be an early sign that we as a community took the correct path.
So should we extend the clause to include Manaphy (who is significantly worse out of infinite rain) at the cost of the never-seen Hydration Lapras, Hydration Gorebyss, or Hydration Whiscash (the only other pokemon to combine a boosting move with Hydration)?
Should we extend the clause to SandStream and Sand Throw / Sand Strength, keeping all of Sand, Excadrill, and Landorus while nerfing Sand Strength Gigalith (its not like Hippowdon or Dugtrio will be running the ability anytime soon) and Sand Throw Sandslash?
What does everyone think?
How far do we go in implementing Ability Combination bans?
I think it's a question we should all be thinking about given the recent implementation of Aldaron's Proposal. After some discussion in the Drizzle + SwSw ban thread, some have suggested that the proposal be extended to include Manaphy.
Looking over the suspect nominations, there were various calls to extrapolate the proposal for rain into Sand so that Excadrill and Landorus could be used while simultaneously maintaining a balanced, desirable metagame.
This situation applies almost exclusively to weather abilities, as no other abilities are providing so much support to other pokemon in a passive way. And from the looks of this thread post-voting, nearly all qualms with rain have literally been washed away and died down, which may be an early sign that we as a community took the correct path.
So should we extend the clause to include Manaphy (who is significantly worse out of infinite rain) at the cost of the never-seen Hydration Lapras, Hydration Gorebyss, or Hydration Whiscash (the only other pokemon to combine a boosting move with Hydration)?
Should we extend the clause to SandStream and Sand Throw / Sand Strength, keeping all of Sand, Excadrill, and Landorus while nerfing Sand Strength Gigalith (its not like Hippowdon or Dugtrio will be running the ability anytime soon) and Sand Throw Sandslash?
What does everyone think?
I'd say no to hydration+drizzle. The reason is that rain sweepers were super-HO, wearing down checks and coming in pretty much already set up with +2 speed and +1 (sp) atk on their stab. They functioned not alone but as a team. Manaphy on the other hand, was a super set-up sweeper, working more on it's own. The super HO teams probably helped it significantly though. I'd rather see it retested with aldaron's proposal in place. But even if it proves broken, that more than likely means that it as a stand alone sweeper in perma rain is capable of too easily sweeping teams and broken.
For sandstream+sand throw, I really don't think excadrill is broken right now, but it may be possible when sandslash comes out. For sand strength... Landorus might not even need it, with its speed, high mixed attacking stats, and SD/RP. The main thing limiting it is 4-moveslot syndrome, and I don't think removing a bit of its power (which it's not even guaranteed) will change that.
For sandstream+sand throw, I really don't think excadrill is broken right now, but it may be possible when sandslash comes out. For sand strength... Landorus might not even need it, with its speed, high mixed attacking stats, and SD/RP. The main thing limiting it is 4-moveslot syndrome, and I don't think removing a bit of its power (which it's not even guaranteed) will change that.
I'd agree with a no to the Hydration and Drizzle ban. Even now, Hydration pokes are pretty obscure as other mons abuse Rain more easily, meaning it clearly would only be for Manaphy's sake that it is implemented - and a complex ban for the sake of one pokemon is entirely unjustified. The reason the ban is complex in the first place is because we would otherwise have had to ban 2-6 other SwSwers in order to balance Rain, unlike the one in the case of Hydration.
No no NO to Hydration+Drizzle. Vaporeon gets Hydration and is not broken, but Manaphy is. It is completely clear that if we banned Hydration+Drizzle it would be for the sole purpose of keeping Manaphy in OU and set a precedent for making 'mons "OU balanced". SS+Drizzle was allowable because it prevented the banning of either an entire set of playstyles or a large set of 'mons, but this is ridiculous. It gets even worse when you consider that this ban to keep Manaphy "safe" would remove Hydration Vaporeon from the game. A ban on Hydration+Drizzle is absolute trash and should never even be considered.
EDIT: Please excuse my language. I'm just a little bit incensed over the idea. It's like banning, say, Speed Boost to keep Blaziken in OU (assuming Blaziken to be broken, which we have no proof for). Ridiculous.
EDIT: Please excuse my language. I'm just a little bit incensed over the idea. It's like banning, say, Speed Boost to keep Blaziken in OU (assuming Blaziken to be broken, which we have no proof for). Ridiculous.
Dude, chill. I agree with what you're saying, but you need to calm your tone a little, or no one will take you seriously.
I say we just ban Manaphy. We shouldn't have to go out of our way to make every pokemon fit for OU. Some pokemon are just too strong, and those are the ones that need to be banned. It's like saying that we allow Arceus but only if it uses tackle.
If Hydration were broken on multiple Pokémon and were more widespread, I could see a case for a complex ban. But I don't see how you can justify doing for Manaphy only, because of the precedent that sets.
Phil declared quite clearly that any Pokemon with their only ability banned is effectively banned altogether.
I raither we do not do any more complex bans. I personally do not agree with the Drizzle + SS ban and Hydration + Drizzle just for Manaphy is even lamer. I mean lets cripple a decent amount of pokemon just so we can use Manaphy, which I consider broken even without Drizzle.
Switch Dusknoir in on a High Jump Kick and Shadow Sneak the other 50% away. I suppose that's a Blaziken Counter, but it requires prediction (not very difficult prediction though).
To bad no one uses Dusknoir as it's outclassed by Dusclops of all things.
But that's probably the way most stall teams deal with Blaziken, spam ghosts and protects when predicting HJKs.
I say we just leave Manaphy in Ubers. Most of us refused to coddle stall and ban Reuniclus. I don't think we should coddle Manaphy and make new rules to let it back into OU.
But that's probably the way most stall teams deal with Blaziken, spam ghosts and protects when predicting HJKs.
I say we just leave Manaphy in Ubers. Most of us refused to coddle stall and ban Reuniclus. I don't think we should coddle Manaphy and make new rules to let it back into OU.
It can be justified because otherwise, a Pokemon is being banned despite not being broken. At least, assuming it is indeed found that Manaphy is found to not be broken outside of Drizzle. I'm not saying this necessarily should be assumed, but we need to find out if it's the case.
And yes, if Manaphy is not broken outside of Drizzle, Manaphy is not broken. There is one core suggestion made by Aldaron's proposal that allowed him to create an exception for Ability + Ability bans. That suggestion is that permanent weather changes the game so much that even if a Pokemon is broken under a certain permitted weather condition, that Pokemon is not necessarily broken overall. That applied to Kingdra, Ludicolo, and others, and now it applies to Manaphy.
Now, if this is taken as justification for Ability + Ability bans, it has the unfortunate implication of having certain Pokemon be banned from being used in certain conditions, even when those Pokemon are not broken in any conditions. Because of this, a Hydration + Drizzle ban may not be the way to go, but there is an alternative. Aldaron's proposal created an exception that can only be applied to permanent weather, but there is no reason that abilities are the only things that can be banned under permanent weather. Because of this, I'm changing my stance. What should be banned is not Hydration + Drizzle, but Manaphy + Drizzle. This can also be applied to the Swift Swim + Drizzle ban. Aldaron's proposal has both short term and long term implications. The short term implications are to test whether or not Drizzle is broken without Swift Swim. Assuming it is concluded that this is the case, then we can take it as a conclusion that Drizzle does not need to be banned and start tuning down the scope of the ban. Rather than banning all Swift Swim abusers under permanent rain, we should decide which Swift Swim abusers are broken under permanent rain and ban those specific Pokemon from being used alongside Drizzle.
This all falls under the precise exception made by Aldaron's proposal, and none of it is any more complicated than the current Swift Swim + Drizzle ban made under that proposal. Now, what would be more complicated would be to ban those Swift Swim abusers only from using Swift Swim under permanent rain. I know that this was considered, and I am not opposed to this, but if it does not happen, it would mean that Pokemon such as Kingdra and Ludicolo would be banned from permanent rain even with their other abilities. I don't know what extent of negative implications this might have, but it certainly seems as if it might have negative implications for Ludicolo. That is the one argument I can see being made against this, and it will have to be considered. But consideration of this is what I am suggesting, not immediate acceptance.
On the other hand, is allowing the non-broken versions of Pokemon such as Ludicolo in the distinct conditions in which their Swift Swim versions even what we want? Even under Drizzle, Swift Swim itself is not broken, because there are Pokemon that are not broken even with Swift Swim. And banning specific abilities on specific Pokemon was shot down, so it isn't, to use it as an example again, Swift Swim Ludicolo that's broken under Drizzle. It's Ludicolo that's broken under Drizzle, and according to our current policy, Ludicolo should always be banned under Drizzle. This implies that reverting to our original policy of specific Pokemon bans really is what fits our current policy best. The only difference is that these specific Pokemon bans only apply in combination with specific permanent weather - which, based on Aldaron's proposal, is acceptable.
Actually, Landlos was frustrating because of a PO glitch, and that's why we didn't ban it. If it continues to prove frustrating, then we will test it and likely ban it.
In 4th Gen, Garchomp probably wouldn't have been broken without Swords Dance. So why didn't we ban Swords Dance on Garchomp, and bring it back down?
So it's a move instead of an ability. Why is that any different? You're still creating a complex ban for the sake of one Pokémon.
To be fair, applying Aldaron's proposal to the current swift swimmers / Manaphy / Landorus is not altering any of the various aspects in any way, it is merely preventing their simultaneous use.
Banning SD on Chomp would have been altering Garchomp itself and is the reason why we did not do it.
Quoted right from Aldaron's proposal. As I'm sure you're aware, Aldaron's proposal was accepted into official policy. Permanent weather is an exception to the complexity rule; moves are not. There should be no dispute as to this, especially since it was already used as a basis for the ban of Swift Swim + Drizzle.
Now it's your turn. Tell me, how is banning Manaphy + Drizzle any different from the existing, accepted ban of Swift Swim + Drizzle?
Again, the acceptance of Aldaron's proposal cemented into absolute fact that something can be banned alongside a specific permanent weather ability and not banned otherwise. The proposal indicated clearly that it could only be invoked when permanent weather abilities are involved. However, there is no reason why, when appropriate, it cannot be applied to abilities other than Swift Swim, or even entire Pokemon. The focus of the proposal, for which the exceptions are being made, is explicitly stated as permanent weather abilities in general, not Drizzle or Swift Swim.
Aldaron's proposal was a solution to a problem that we were facing, which was that we could not easily deal with Drizzle without any ban we were to make having major repercussions on other, non-broken playstyles and Pokemon. It was a way to solve our problems while minimizing the effect that it had on the metagame. Suggesting a Drizzle + Manaphy ban is exactly what Aldaron hoped that we could avoid through his proposal: a slippery slope (yay a legitimate use of the term).
We can't use complex ability bans just to keep a certain Pokemon from becoming Uber: If it's broken, we ban it. Banning Inconsistant was in order to minimize luck factors in the metagame. Banning Drizzle + Swift Swim allowed us to keep Drizzle in the metagame to keep the other weathers in check (so that we didn't start a slippery slope of banning every weather). The only thing banning Drizzle + Manaphy would accomplish is keeping Manaphy OU. It does not preserve a playstyle, it does not reduce luck factors, it is just picking favorites. We can't use Aldaron's proposal to justify the end of all Pokemon bans. "Nominated for Uber? Lets just pick the most broken aspect and ban Pokemon + that. Because that's exactly what we did with Drizzle + Swift Swim, right?"
Those are not statements that would be made by someone only concerned with Swift Swim + Drizzle being a special case. They are general statements, and applying them to combinations other than Swift Swim + Drizzle is not a slippery slope; it's exactly what the arguments meant in the first place.
The point of Aldaron's proposal was to suggest that something could be banned from being used in specific permanent weather conditions without being banned from competitive battling entirely. Swift Swim + Drizzle was addressed only because it would be the most significant subject of such a ban at the time.
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