Manaphy is completely different from Swift Swim. It's only one Pokemon compared to several or an entire playstyle, and by banning Hydration+Drizzle, we remove all other Hydration 'mons (who aren't powerful enough to even be MENTIONED as suspect) from the metagame. Earlier today a Hydration Lapras swept one of my experimental teams. Your proposal kills that little bit of ingenuity, and for what? For the sake of a Pokemon that may well turn out uber anyway. This is a horrible precedent which says that it's okay to ban several Pokemon for the sake of a single other one, as long as we like that other one enough. Bullshit. I'll accept a Drizzle+Hydration ban the day you prove that Hydration Vaporeon is uber.
If you decide to only have this apply to Manaphy, then it's even worse (if that's somehow possible). Suddenly, we're saying that it's okay to wiggle things around until Pokemon are safe for OU. That is completely unacceptable. Manaphy is simply not worth that. Don't bring up the entire "it's weather, it must be different" argument, because we aren't doing anything general and weather-related. We're doing something Pokemon-specific in an attempt to nerf the 'mon to OU levels. There is nothing inherently different between this and, say, banning Ninjask and a good speed receiver, except for this mystical "weather" that seems to break all the rules.
Edit: Didn't quote, but this is targeted at Thorhammer primarily.
If Manaphy turns out to be uber even outside of permanent rain, there will be no concern with any of this. Besides, I've already stopped advocating for a Hydration + Drizzle ban.
Please read Aldaron's proposal. It establishes that weather
is different, and weather is central to this concern, because it may turn out that permanent rain is the only thing making Manaphy broken. We have to at least test it to find out.
I hate to invoke the slippery slope argument Thorhammer, but in this case I agree with Nanoswine. Although yes, your points are totally valid, I think it takes it too far to apply something like a Drizzle and Manaphy Ban. I proposed something similar - banning SwSw on Kingdra etc instead of actually banning them, and was immediately shot down for it being too complex and dangerous in precedent, and with good reason, I'll admit.
Banning Swift Swim on Kingdra in Drizzle conditions is even more complex than simply banning Kingdra in Drizzle conditions, or simply banning Manaphy in Drizzle conditions, for that matter. We've already shot down the notion of banning a specific ability on a specific Pokemon, and banning Swift Swim Kingdra specifically is a form of that. However, that's not because we normally carry out bans by banning specific abilities; it's because we normally carry out bans by banning specific Pokemon. That doesn't change with regard to permanent weather; if we can ban abilities under permanent weather, we can ban Pokemon under permanent weather. Besides, even under permanent rain, Swift Swim itself isn't broken. You don't see anyone saying Luvdisc or Magikarp is broken under permanent rain, do you? It's not the Pokemon that's broken, it's not the ability that's broken, and it's not the combination of the ability and the permanent weather condition that's broken. It's the combination of the Pokemon and the permanent weather condition that's broken, and
that is what should be banned. As it was proposed, a large part of the ban of Swift Swim + Drizzle was to test whether or not it really was Drizzle that was broken. It makes sense for us to go through with this test, but even if the test results verify that Drizzle doesn't need to be banned as long as it's kept away from the top Swift Swim threats, we don't have to keep the weather and the threats separate by means of an unnecessarily broad ability ban.
Whilst Aldaron's proposal does indeed set the scene for further complex bans, it goes against most player's gut feeling to ban one pokemon in combination with another factor - Manaphy with Drizzle on the team, Kingdra with Swift Swim, etc simply because this does bring us dangerously close to banning every weather abuser on the weather team, or without its weather abusing ability - and if Manaphy gets this treatment, why should Dory, Landlos, Terakion, Venusaur, etc not get the same if it comes to it?
People can learn to adapt. We're already adapting to the Inconsistent ban, and we're already adapting to the Swift Swim + Drizzle ban. Aldaron's classification of weather abilities as a specific exception acted as a check to any potential slippery slopes, so we don't have to worry about this going too far.
If any of Excadrill, Landlos, Terakion, and Venusaur turn out to be broken under their respective permanent weather conditions but not broken under any other conditions, then why shouldn't they get the same treatment? All four of those Pokemon can add to the diversity of one or more tiers even outside of their permanent weather, and I don't think Terakion is affected that much by permanent weather in the first place. But this hardly matters at this stage, as there's no indication that it will ever come to that. Excadrill has already been voted OU, and Terakion and Venusaur didn't even make it to voting. Landlos was exempt from the vote, so we can't really say anything about him at this stage, but if Landlos really is found to be broken after the next round of testing, and only because of his performance in permanent sandstorm, there's no reason to ban him from teams that don't use permanent sand. This is what has been decided by the acceptance of Aldaron's proposal.
I honestly think we need to draw the line at a combination ban specifying a sinlge pokemon (or ability exclusive to one mon). The Drizzle+SwSw ban affects Politoed and every single Rain abuser's usability, and that was why it was done. Drizzle and Manaphy affects only Manaphy, and to me that does not justify the complexity of the ban. As Valykries says, we want to ban minimalistically, with as few impacts as possible on the meta, and ideally as simply as possible. Whilst something like Manaphy+Drizzle ban adheres to the first principle, it utterly flaunts the second to an extent that the benefits outweigh the costs. Alone it may not be an issue, but it opens the way for any other Pokemon and x factor ban to come.
And why should we do that? We shouldn't have a preference towards banning team styles, because we
don't ban team styles. We ban Pokemon. Furthermore, I hate to quote the same paragraph a third time, but...
Can we stop dealing with weather-inducing "abilities" as though they are the same as other abilities, or even moves / Pokemon? Weather inducing abilities affect such a large number of variables that dealing with them with "simplicity" in mind is silly.
There is no need to justify a complex weather-related ban. We have accepted Aldaron's proposal, and that means that if the only element of complexity of a ban is the involvement of a permanent-weather ability, the ban cannot be rejected on the basis of complexity.
